I was talking rebutting Garth's assertion that all mental or psychological disorders are entirely natural in origin. I said that, just because you can medicate a schizophrenic and moderate their behavior doesn't mean spirits are not involved. It's not an either-or situation. The connections and relationships between the physical and the spiritual are such that if you can alter the physical aspect of a mental illness, you can disrupt what the spirit is working on.
Peace
JerryB
However, you have failed to prove the existence of spirits, or even the effects that they have on people. If we can treat mental illness by medication, and in some cases even cure it with surgery, then how does that fit in with the theory of evil spirits?
What makes your belief in devil spirits any more real or valid than the belief in body thetans?
I bet we could start a whole new thread on just this sort of thing alone. It's the reason I'm against the beef industry, the advertising industries, and other things that make kids physically older than they should be and influence them to be very sexual at early ages. Of course, the parents have much of the blame, but it takes guts to be a parent and not take your kid to the mall or allow them to read magazines and watch TV.
Schumel doesn't rhyme with Eve that would take the force out of the mantra that people chant. :D-->
Mr P-Mosh the problems of who started what have occupied people down the ages. There are Bible records which appear to show that God, or at least his spokespersons approved some of the things you mention whcih are kind of hard to explain.
But there are monsters out there who are quite happy to condemn men or women loving each other whilst happily commiting genocide or happily screwing every woman in sight.
I find it hard to think of a God who will get upset over gay sex whilst sitting back and letting millions die.
Yet murderers and adulterers are quite happy to and still think he is on their side.
The bible speaks of a contest between good and evil.
it is clear goodnes is goodnes and evil is evil , or sin is sin.
no big or small x"s. isnt that how the class put it?
If one doesnt believe in God then this post is void of their understanding and I understand why you would blame God for evil.
God often masks the old testiment and takes the hit for what satan his enemy does to people. Why? because they didnt have any means to fight evil, they had no spirit , no Saviour . no hope of knowing God would indeed help them out in this world full of sin and trouble from a powerful enemy.
they showed from their own choices throughout the bible they had little faith regarding what a loving Father would do for them, even chosing to go back into slavery while in the desert with Moses, rather than believe God after all they had seen and with HIM to get to the promised land so far.
I do not believe Sin come in catergories, you know like big and little and important and not so much or just ok on tuesday type thinking that is very human and conditional thinking. sin is sin and all will answer for it at the bema. The reason I think homosexuality is spoke of is because it is a hot subject right now in our culture as it has been in times past(history) speaks of the bath houses in the different cultures that had reigned and its activities linking sexual sins.. also sex is a powerful behaviour.
your right Mister Mosh..
believing in something is in the mind and no one can prove what one is able to think or believe including god or any type of spirit.
Faith is a word used to describe how folks are able to utilize what God is to them.
homosexuality is not a "creation" it is a behaviour. All Sex is a behaviour. Sexual thoughts are from the mind and the body reacts to the stimulation.
I do not believe homosexual have a mental problem a chemical reaction within the physical body hence the reason no medication or sugery has helped anyone overcome it. other than to shut down the body response completly in that area. which would not neccesarily take away the desire in the mind, like a person who has had a stoke and is unable to perform sexualy physicaly still wanting to . If they did we would certainly hear about it by now.
Science has learned a great deal about how our body systems work and medicines treat the area of the mind that are troubled..giving a sense of tranquil when anxiety and depressions are present. This does not take away the problem!!!!
ask those who stop taking their meds how long it takes for the symptoms to reappear.
the things you speak of ( rape ,murder) are BEHAVIOURS people think in their mind they need or want to do these things and do them. the question why some do and some do not is clearly because they have an influence some Do not have, ie a spirit.
Death is the final victory for Jesus christ and will be destroyed at the end times, all of thes other issues and problems take the individual chosing to do what he wills to have power over him/her. I think therefore I am.
behaviours are our thoughts brought in fruitation, I ate a carrot cake because I thought it would taste good because somwhere along the line I was introduced to the idea it would and did it and enjoyed it so I chose to do it again. Such is all behaviours, God speaks of some thoughts coming from an evil source and spirits that work around and amoung his children that will kill steal and destroy their goodness He gave them within the spirit.
such is the contest between good and evil and each individual must wage his own battle within himself.
What God made, was Adam and Eve. Hetersexuality, don't ya hnow.
If God didn't make homosexuality, then who did? Obviously, anyone with the capability to create things outside of what God did must be equal to God themselves, right? Otherwise, if God created everything, then he's also the creator of death, murder, rape, and evil in general.
Hi there Mr. P.
That would be the work of the Serpent. What God designs, the Devil distorts. Pagan worship is a distortion of true worship. Homosexuality is a distortion of God's plan which He described as "good". God didn't create murder, rape, or evil. God created good, life, love, sexual intimacy, and kindness. We have a choice. We can follow God's order and seek love, life, and goodness, or we can follow Satan's curriculum and major in murder, rape, evil...and homosexuality. The basic principle is described in Galatians 5:16-23 with which I'm sure you're already familiar.
quote:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I'm sure someone will point out that homosexuality is not listed here. It is however, discussed in similar contexts in Roamns and I Corinthians. We have to choose God's way, the walk in the Spirit, or Satan's way, which is grounded in the lusts of the flesh. If we choose wrongly and suffer dire consequences, that's not God's fault.
I was talking rebutting Garth's assertion that all mental or psychological disorders are entirely natural in origin. I said that, just because you can medicate a schizophrenic and moderate their behavior doesn't mean spirits are not involved. It's not an either-or situation. The connections and relationships between the physical and the spiritual are such that if you can alter the physical aspect of a mental illness, you can disrupt what the spirit is working on.
Peace
JerryB
However, you have failed to prove the existence of spirits, or even the effects that they have on people. If we can treat mental illness by medication, and in some cases even cure it with surgery, then how does that fit in with the theory of evil spirits?
What makes your belief in devil spirits any more real or valid than the belief in body thetans?
As I mentioned to Garth, it is a little disingenuous to tell someone they have to "prove the existence of spirits." The kind of 'proof' you're referring to requires a closed system in which variables are controlled. Scientists cannot setup a laboratory in which they can control the activity of beings that have wills and personalities and exist on a plane beyond the natural.
Therefore, no one can prove or disprove the existence of spirits. So your complaint is essentially groundless
That would be the work of the Serpent. What God designs, the Devil distorts. Pagan worship is a distortion of true worship. Homosexuality is a distortion of God's plan which He described as "good". God didn't create murder, rape, or evil. God created good, life, love, sexual intimacy, and kindness. We have a choice. We can follow God's order and seek love, life, and goodness, or we can follow Satan's curriculum and major in murder, rape, evil...and homosexuality.
Therein lies a huge paradox with the belief in a supreme God. It's sort of like the question, "Can God build a rock so big that even he can't lift it?" While that question is silly, it does bring up a good point.
If God did not invent evil, and Satan did, then that means that Satan has an equal ability to create, which is against what is in the Bible. If God did invent evil, then he is not "love" or fully representative of goodness because he has a dual nature, which also goes against other parts of the Bible. If God did not invent evil at all, and simply created an environment where evil could occur, then he is just as guilty of the evil that happens in the world because he set the world up in such a way that evil would happen, has the power to do something about it, and fails to do so. It's like a parent leaving a loaded gun in your toddler's toybox and absolving themselves of responsibility because the toddler, with it's inferior mind, made the wrong choice and accidentally killed themself.
I know you don't see it that way, and we live in a country where your beliefs are protected (although I can't say the same about mine) so there's no problem. Don't take any of what I am saying as a personal attack or an attempt to get you to give up your beliefs. I just find it curious how the logic of religion works, and from my perspective it involves some strange things such as not holding God accountable in a consistant manner.
As I mentioned to Garth, it is a little disingenuous to tell someone they have to "prove the existence of spirits." The kind of 'proof' you're referring to requires a closed system in which variables are controlled. Scientists cannot setup a laboratory in which they can control the activity of beings that have wills and personalities and exist on a plane beyond the natural.
Therefore, no one can prove or disprove the existence of spirits. So your complaint is essentially groundless
Peace
JerryB
Science works by measuring effects of things. If devil spirits exist, then there must be a way to measure their effects on people. I think this holds particularly true of sin, since none of us are perfect and you would think with how many sinners there are we'd be able to provide a large enough sample to be able to measure scientifically the effects of devil spirits on people.
I guess I take a more scientific look on life than other people, because I expect to be able to have evidence of something before I believe in it. If you can't prove or disprove devil spirits, then there is no reason for me to believe in their existence. If I can't prove that the Christian God is the one true god, then there is no reason to find Christianity any more valid than I do the religion where the Earth is on the back of a giant turtle or belief in Athena and Zeus.
Reminds me of the paradox in Terminator 2. The guy who invents Skynet didn't envisage what would happen.
Yet God despite knowing what would happen still went ahead - after all he created Lucifer who rebelled and became Satan.
He also knew that not everyone would fit in with this so-called heterosexual pattern, just as he knew that there would be Hitlers and Stalins and Pol Pots.
My logic has problems with some Christian explanations for the whole thing, especially when the idea is touted that he gets far more upset over love than hatred.
If there are distortions then Christianity is equally as guilty as the "enemy."
Therein lies a huge paradox with the belief in a supreme God. It's sort of like the question, "Can God build a rock so big that even he can't lift it?" While that question is silly, it does bring up a good point.
If God did not invent evil, and Satan did, then that means that Satan has an equal ability to create, which is against what is in the Bible. If God did invent evil, then he is not "love" or fully representative of goodness because he has a dual nature, which also goes against other parts of the Bible. If God did not invent evil at all, and simply created an environment where evil could occur, then he is just as guilty of the evil that happens in the world because he set the world up in such a way that evil would happen, has the power to do something about it, and fails to do so. It's like a parent leaving a loaded gun in your toddler's toybox and absolving themselves of responsibility because the toddler, with it's inferior mind, made the wrong choice and accidentally killed themself.
I know you don't see it that way, and we live in a country where your beliefs are protected (although I can't say the same about mine) so there's no problem. Don't take any of what I am saying as a personal attack or an attempt to get you to give up your beliefs. I just find it curious how the logic of religion works, and from my perspective it involves some strange things such as not holding God accountable in a consistant manner.
I know where you're coming from Mr P. I've pondered some of those issues in Genesis and haven't come to a conclusion on some of them. Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed. After they ate of the f.o.t.t.o.k.o.g.a.k, they were ashamed and in hiding. But there's not much in Genesis that indicates that they were fundamentally different afterwards. God asked Adam "who told thee thou wast naked?" The implication is they were made corrupt and sinful; they just didn't have a mirror. The Serpent gave them one and they ran and hid from their reflections.
And in the aftermath of the whole sordid affair, God is recorded as having said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."
There's a whole doctoral thesis in there. Is God both good and evil, or is he only good but aware of evil? The questions start there and just get worse.
But, if you take the Bible as a whole, which I try to do, you have to conclude that, whether he is perfect or not, God is in charge and he doesn't approve of homosexual conduct.
Whether or not we approve of his character or methods or judgments, is really irrelevent. The bottom line is, this is His universe and we're in it for the duration. We can decide we don't like His rules (I can think of one or two I'd rather not have to observe), but in the end, we're going to be judged by His standards, not ours.
If it were up to me, I would make it so that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ had instantly and eternally blotted out everyone's sins, cleansed every human heart and mind, and eliminated every evil influence, every pain, etc. Because basically, I love people. (Don't laugh Sharon)
I don't like having to believe that people I consider "nice guys" may be judged unworthy of eternal life or suffer some other punishment because they rejected the truth.
I guess I take a more scientific look on life than other people, because I expect to be able to have evidence of something before I believe in it. If you can't prove or disprove devil spirits, then there is no reason for me to believe in their existence. If I can't prove that the Christian God is the one true god, then there is no reason to find Christianity any more valid than I do the religion where the Earth is on the back of a giant turtle or belief in Athena and Zeus.
We are not entirely without proof Mister P. We do have speaking in tongues, which I still believe to be the only physical proof of the presence of holy spirit. That in turn validates much of the New Testament, which also tells us that there are both angels and demons, that we have dominion over the latter, etc, etc.
There's another thread on this topic in the doctrinal section. To summarize what we discussed there: I have not yet read, seen, or heard anything that disproves what TWI taught about speaking in tongues being a genuine manifestation of holy spirit that cannot be counterfeited. There are people in other religions who chant in foreing languages, and there are even Christian ministers who say that speaking in tongues is a pagan practice, but their arguments do not apply to the phenomenon as we were taught it and as we practiced it. Chanting is not speaking in tongues. Being taken over by a supernatural force and being made to speak against one's will is not speaking in tongues.
Only Christians have the ability to freely speak fluently in languages unknown to themselves.
This is physically impossible, but it happens every day. Now, is that proof that demons exist? Nope. But it is, imho, proof that God exists, and that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. These are biblical doctrines. So the logical conclusion for me is that there are other truths in the Bible that relate to the spiritual realm. Some of these I have experienced and so for me, the existence of demons has been validated.
Everyone has to make up his own mind. I respect your desire to be logical, scientific and objective. That's my mindset as well. And for me, the logical proof of the existence of the spiritual realm is speaking in tonogues.
Therein lies a huge paradox with the belief in a supreme God. It's sort of like the question, "Can God build a rock so big that even he can't lift it?" While that question is silly, it does bring up a good point.
If God did not invent evil, and Satan did, then that means that Satan has an equal ability to create, which is against what is in the Bible. If God did invent evil, then he is not "love" or fully representative of goodness because he has a dual nature, which also goes against other parts of the Bible. If God did not invent evil at all, and simply created an environment where evil could occur, then he is just as guilty of the evil that happens in the world because he set the world up in such a way that evil would happen, has the power to do something about it, and fails to do so. It's like a parent leaving a loaded gun in your toddler's toybox and absolving themselves of responsibility because the toddler, with it's inferior mind, made the wrong choice and accidentally killed themself.
I know you don't see it that way, and we live in a country where your beliefs are protected (although I can't say the same about mine) so there's no problem. Don't take any of what I am saying as a personal attack or an attempt to get you to give up your beliefs. I just find it curious how the logic of religion works, and from my perspective it involves some strange things such as not holding God accountable in a consistant manner.
Mister P and Trefor, I know where you're coming from. I've pondered some of those issues in Genesis and haven't come to a conclusion on some of them. Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed. After they ate of the f.o.t.t.o.k.o.g.a.k, they were ashamed and in hiding. But there's not much in Genesis that indicates that they were fundamentally different afterwards. God asked Adam "who told thee thou wast naked?" The implication is they were made corrupt and sinful; they just didn't have a mirror. The Serpent gave them one and they ran and hid from their reflections.
And in the aftermath of the whole sordid affair, God is recorded as having said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."
There's a whole doctoral thesis in there. Is God both good and evil, or is he only good but aware of evil? The questions start there and just get worse.
But, if you take the Bible as a whole, which I try to do, you have to conclude that, whether he is perfect or not, God is in charge and he doesn't approve of homosexual conduct.
Whether or not we approve of his character or methods or judgments, is really irrelevent. The bottom line is, this is His universe and we're in it for the duration. We can decide we don't like His rules (I can think of one or two I'd rather not have to observe), but in the end, we're going to be judged by His standards, not ours.
If it were up to me, I would make it so that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ had instantly and eternally blotted out everyone's sins, cleansed every human heart and mind, and eliminated every evil influence, every pain, etc. Because basically, I love people. (Don't laugh Sharon)
I don't like having to believe that people I consider "nice guys" may be judged unworthy of eternal life or suffer some other punishment because they rejected the truth.
There you go jbaraxx - you just gotta equate that rape, murder, evil and homosexuality together.
I am sorry I guess there are some on here that still do think like LCM. Why doesn't that surprise me? I am sorry, JB, my child isn't raping, isn't murdering and ISN'T EVIL. SO P*** you. Yea I have had enough of your self righteous puke.
They usually say if you are accusing somebody of something (you know one finger pointed) you got three pointed back at youself. Might be why you have such a self righteous attitude about this topic.
Yes I did notice that homosexuality wasn't in that list as you said some would point out.
So that's how ya do it. You just get to add your own private interp where you want to. It's not in the list but you decide God must have meant for it to be there too. Seems to me if it was that important to God IT WOULD be on the list.
I believe in God, but I do not believe SIT is proof that I do, or that I am "holy" in any way.
Out of the fog
God says His creationis good . Satan and his workers are evil.
I believe God over what people think. Maybe you do as well.
As far as behaviours well we all have them, we all fall short of what God wants from us Hence the Saviour Jesus Christ.
It truly is a simple religion being a christian.
Long Gone
your right He does "allow" millions to die, I was trying to say it isnt His will people should die not any of them , unless God turned Himself into a liar He can NOT stop anyone from dying, but He can give them a chance to rise again healed and well, if they chose to believe inHis son Jesus christ. He promises life eternal but maybe not all in one stretch is my point, the dead will live again so in a sense He has defeated death now, sleeping waiting the return is not forever, just for a season. so they still will live.
those who do not want to believe the game plan , and chose to not believe the greatest story ever told then they will find out about the same time everyone eles does if it is true or not.
damn practitioners of drunkeness should not be allowed to have a state endorsed marriage or go to churches either, but that might step on some pretty big toes. aaaarghh
I think that how one judges what are rules or not is to some extent at least subjective.
Just as interpretation and translation is subjective.
Just as the decision to "let God off the hook" and blame absolutely everything upon Satan, a created being, is subjective.
Just as the conscience is subjective regarding how one finds oneself. One of the best things VPW ever shared was that poem in the lift.
There are gay people who do not fear the judgement on this at least - I am one. That might make others tremble, but that is my conclusion, not reached without much thought, prayer and suffering, thought and study. Therefore I can no longer see it as negatively as others would like and rejoice when others have an easier time of it than I had.
I was trying to make the point that if you are going to accept your child's professed homosexuality, then you had better find out who he/she is having sex with, because it is well-established part of homosexual literature of a teens' first time being with an older partner.
Some gay teens have been molested and take it out on younger children.
There are consequences to the homosexual sex acts. Anal and oral sex isn't the only thing they do.
then you had better find out who she/he is having sex with because it is a well established part of heterosexual literature of a teens first time being "with anything he can fit it into".......
Some straight teens have been molested and take it out on younger children.......
There are consequences to heterosexual sex acts. Anal and oral sex isn't the only thing they do.
If you think it is then you definately got your head buried in the sand......probably where it's more comfortable.
Quote: Anal and oral sex isn't all that they do....
What is it they do than, that is any different from heterosexual acts... I think many men would love to do the anal thing with their significant partner. Also, I noticed that many men's porn movies involve two women making love. Doesn't seem to bother you guys when it is two women. It's the man part that makes your ego's uncomfortable isn't it? A little too feminine for your male ego's huh? Well you know what, it ain't all about you.....
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
37
30
26
63
Popular Days
Apr 26
46
Apr 27
43
Apr 28
42
Apr 29
36
Top Posters In This Topic
Jbarrax 37 posts
LG 30 posts
J0nny Ling0 26 posts
outofdafog 63 posts
Popular Days
Apr 26 2005
46 posts
Apr 27 2005
43 posts
Apr 28 2005
42 posts
Apr 29 2005
36 posts
Mister P-Mosh
However, you have failed to prove the existence of spirits, or even the effects that they have on people. If we can treat mental illness by medication, and in some cases even cure it with surgery, then how does that fit in with the theory of evil spirits?
What makes your belief in devil spirits any more real or valid than the belief in body thetans?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
I bet we could start a whole new thread on just this sort of thing alone. It's the reason I'm against the beef industry, the advertising industries, and other things that make kids physically older than they should be and influence them to be very sexual at early ages. Of course, the parents have much of the blame, but it takes guts to be a parent and not take your kid to the mall or allow them to read magazines and watch TV.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Trefor Heywood
Sharon:
Schumel doesn't rhyme with Eve that would take the force out of the mantra that people chant.
:D-->
Mr P-Mosh the problems of who started what have occupied people down the ages. There are Bible records which appear to show that God, or at least his spokespersons approved some of the things you mention whcih are kind of hard to explain.
But there are monsters out there who are quite happy to condemn men or women loving each other whilst happily commiting genocide or happily screwing every woman in sight.
I find it hard to think of a God who will get upset over gay sex whilst sitting back and letting millions die.
Yet murderers and adulterers are quite happy to and still think he is on their side.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
God doesnt allow millions to die.
The bible speaks of a contest between good and evil.
it is clear goodnes is goodnes and evil is evil , or sin is sin.
no big or small x"s. isnt that how the class put it?
If one doesnt believe in God then this post is void of their understanding and I understand why you would blame God for evil.
God often masks the old testiment and takes the hit for what satan his enemy does to people. Why? because they didnt have any means to fight evil, they had no spirit , no Saviour . no hope of knowing God would indeed help them out in this world full of sin and trouble from a powerful enemy.
they showed from their own choices throughout the bible they had little faith regarding what a loving Father would do for them, even chosing to go back into slavery while in the desert with Moses, rather than believe God after all they had seen and with HIM to get to the promised land so far.
I do not believe Sin come in catergories, you know like big and little and important and not so much or just ok on tuesday type thinking that is very human and conditional thinking. sin is sin and all will answer for it at the bema. The reason I think homosexuality is spoke of is because it is a hot subject right now in our culture as it has been in times past(history) speaks of the bath houses in the different cultures that had reigned and its activities linking sexual sins.. also sex is a powerful behaviour.
your right Mister Mosh..
believing in something is in the mind and no one can prove what one is able to think or believe including god or any type of spirit.
Faith is a word used to describe how folks are able to utilize what God is to them.
homosexuality is not a "creation" it is a behaviour. All Sex is a behaviour. Sexual thoughts are from the mind and the body reacts to the stimulation.
I do not believe homosexual have a mental problem a chemical reaction within the physical body hence the reason no medication or sugery has helped anyone overcome it. other than to shut down the body response completly in that area. which would not neccesarily take away the desire in the mind, like a person who has had a stoke and is unable to perform sexualy physicaly still wanting to . If they did we would certainly hear about it by now.
Science has learned a great deal about how our body systems work and medicines treat the area of the mind that are troubled..giving a sense of tranquil when anxiety and depressions are present. This does not take away the problem!!!!
ask those who stop taking their meds how long it takes for the symptoms to reappear.
the things you speak of ( rape ,murder) are BEHAVIOURS people think in their mind they need or want to do these things and do them. the question why some do and some do not is clearly because they have an influence some Do not have, ie a spirit.
Death is the final victory for Jesus christ and will be destroyed at the end times, all of thes other issues and problems take the individual chosing to do what he wills to have power over him/her. I think therefore I am.
behaviours are our thoughts brought in fruitation, I ate a carrot cake because I thought it would taste good because somwhere along the line I was introduced to the idea it would and did it and enjoyed it so I chose to do it again. Such is all behaviours, God speaks of some thoughts coming from an evil source and spirits that work around and amoung his children that will kill steal and destroy their goodness He gave them within the spirit.
such is the contest between good and evil and each individual must wage his own battle within himself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
Hi there Mr. P.
That would be the work of the Serpent. What God designs, the Devil distorts. Pagan worship is a distortion of true worship. Homosexuality is a distortion of God's plan which He described as "good". God didn't create murder, rape, or evil. God created good, life, love, sexual intimacy, and kindness. We have a choice. We can follow God's order and seek love, life, and goodness, or we can follow Satan's curriculum and major in murder, rape, evil...and homosexuality. The basic principle is described in Galatians 5:16-23 with which I'm sure you're already familiar.
I'm sure someone will point out that homosexuality is not listed here. It is however, discussed in similar contexts in Roamns and I Corinthians. We have to choose God's way, the walk in the Spirit, or Satan's way, which is grounded in the lusts of the flesh. If we choose wrongly and suffer dire consequences, that's not God's fault.
Peace
JerryB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
LG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
As I mentioned to Garth, it is a little disingenuous to tell someone they have to "prove the existence of spirits." The kind of 'proof' you're referring to requires a closed system in which variables are controlled. Scientists cannot setup a laboratory in which they can control the activity of beings that have wills and personalities and exist on a plane beyond the natural.
Therefore, no one can prove or disprove the existence of spirits. So your complaint is essentially groundless
Peace
JerryB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Therein lies a huge paradox with the belief in a supreme God. It's sort of like the question, "Can God build a rock so big that even he can't lift it?" While that question is silly, it does bring up a good point.
If God did not invent evil, and Satan did, then that means that Satan has an equal ability to create, which is against what is in the Bible. If God did invent evil, then he is not "love" or fully representative of goodness because he has a dual nature, which also goes against other parts of the Bible. If God did not invent evil at all, and simply created an environment where evil could occur, then he is just as guilty of the evil that happens in the world because he set the world up in such a way that evil would happen, has the power to do something about it, and fails to do so. It's like a parent leaving a loaded gun in your toddler's toybox and absolving themselves of responsibility because the toddler, with it's inferior mind, made the wrong choice and accidentally killed themself.
I know you don't see it that way, and we live in a country where your beliefs are protected (although I can't say the same about mine) so there's no problem. Don't take any of what I am saying as a personal attack or an attempt to get you to give up your beliefs. I just find it curious how the logic of religion works, and from my perspective it involves some strange things such as not holding God accountable in a consistant manner.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Science works by measuring effects of things. If devil spirits exist, then there must be a way to measure their effects on people. I think this holds particularly true of sin, since none of us are perfect and you would think with how many sinners there are we'd be able to provide a large enough sample to be able to measure scientifically the effects of devil spirits on people.
I guess I take a more scientific look on life than other people, because I expect to be able to have evidence of something before I believe in it. If you can't prove or disprove devil spirits, then there is no reason for me to believe in their existence. If I can't prove that the Christian God is the one true god, then there is no reason to find Christianity any more valid than I do the religion where the Earth is on the back of a giant turtle or belief in Athena and Zeus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Trefor Heywood
Reminds me of the paradox in Terminator 2. The guy who invents Skynet didn't envisage what would happen.
Yet God despite knowing what would happen still went ahead - after all he created Lucifer who rebelled and became Satan.
He also knew that not everyone would fit in with this so-called heterosexual pattern, just as he knew that there would be Hitlers and Stalins and Pol Pots.
My logic has problems with some Christian explanations for the whole thing, especially when the idea is touted that he gets far more upset over love than hatred.
If there are distortions then Christianity is equally as guilty as the "enemy."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
I know where you're coming from Mr P. I've pondered some of those issues in Genesis and haven't come to a conclusion on some of them. Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed. After they ate of the f.o.t.t.o.k.o.g.a.k, they were ashamed and in hiding. But there's not much in Genesis that indicates that they were fundamentally different afterwards. God asked Adam "who told thee thou wast naked?" The implication is they were made corrupt and sinful; they just didn't have a mirror. The Serpent gave them one and they ran and hid from their reflections.
And in the aftermath of the whole sordid affair, God is recorded as having said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."
There's a whole doctoral thesis in there. Is God both good and evil, or is he only good but aware of evil? The questions start there and just get worse.
But, if you take the Bible as a whole, which I try to do, you have to conclude that, whether he is perfect or not, God is in charge and he doesn't approve of homosexual conduct.
Whether or not we approve of his character or methods or judgments, is really irrelevent. The bottom line is, this is His universe and we're in it for the duration. We can decide we don't like His rules (I can think of one or two I'd rather not have to observe), but in the end, we're going to be judged by His standards, not ours.
If it were up to me, I would make it so that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ had instantly and eternally blotted out everyone's sins, cleansed every human heart and mind, and eliminated every evil influence, every pain, etc. Because basically, I love people. (Don't laugh Sharon)
I don't like having to believe that people I consider "nice guys" may be judged unworthy of eternal life or suffer some other punishment because they rejected the truth.
But I don't make the rules. I just live here.
Peace
JerryB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
We are not entirely without proof Mister P. We do have speaking in tongues, which I still believe to be the only physical proof of the presence of holy spirit. That in turn validates much of the New Testament, which also tells us that there are both angels and demons, that we have dominion over the latter, etc, etc.
There's another thread on this topic in the doctrinal section. To summarize what we discussed there: I have not yet read, seen, or heard anything that disproves what TWI taught about speaking in tongues being a genuine manifestation of holy spirit that cannot be counterfeited. There are people in other religions who chant in foreing languages, and there are even Christian ministers who say that speaking in tongues is a pagan practice, but their arguments do not apply to the phenomenon as we were taught it and as we practiced it. Chanting is not speaking in tongues. Being taken over by a supernatural force and being made to speak against one's will is not speaking in tongues.
Only Christians have the ability to freely speak fluently in languages unknown to themselves.
This is physically impossible, but it happens every day. Now, is that proof that demons exist? Nope. But it is, imho, proof that God exists, and that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. These are biblical doctrines. So the logical conclusion for me is that there are other truths in the Bible that relate to the spiritual realm. Some of these I have experienced and so for me, the existence of demons has been validated.
Everyone has to make up his own mind. I respect your desire to be logical, scientific and objective. That's my mindset as well. And for me, the logical proof of the existence of the spiritual realm is speaking in tonogues.
Peace
JerryB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
There you go jbaraxx - you just gotta equate that rape, murder, evil and homosexuality together.
I am sorry I guess there are some on here that still do think like LCM. Why doesn't that surprise me? I am sorry, JB, my child isn't raping, isn't murdering and ISN'T EVIL. SO P*** you. Yea I have had enough of your self righteous puke.
They usually say if you are accusing somebody of something (you know one finger pointed) you got three pointed back at youself. Might be why you have such a self righteous attitude about this topic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
why is
what is
who did it
what do we do
This is why going on tangents tangle people up.
Taking this subject to extremes hardens
both sides of the fence.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
Yes I did notice that homosexuality wasn't in that list as you said some would point out.
So that's how ya do it. You just get to add your own private interp where you want to. It's not in the list but you decide God must have meant for it to be there too. Seems to me if it was that important to God IT WOULD be on the list.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
I believe in God, but I do not believe SIT is proof that I do, or that I am "holy" in any way.
Out of the fog
God says His creationis good . Satan and his workers are evil.
I believe God over what people think. Maybe you do as well.
As far as behaviours well we all have them, we all fall short of what God wants from us Hence the Saviour Jesus Christ.
It truly is a simple religion being a christian.
Long Gone
your right He does "allow" millions to die, I was trying to say it isnt His will people should die not any of them , unless God turned Himself into a liar He can NOT stop anyone from dying, but He can give them a chance to rise again healed and well, if they chose to believe inHis son Jesus christ. He promises life eternal but maybe not all in one stretch is my point, the dead will live again so in a sense He has defeated death now, sleeping waiting the return is not forever, just for a season. so they still will live.
those who do not want to believe the game plan , and chose to not believe the greatest story ever told then they will find out about the same time everyone eles does if it is true or not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
damn practitioners of drunkeness should not be allowed to have a state endorsed marriage or go to churches either, but that might step on some pretty big toes. aaaarghh
~HAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Trefor Heywood
I think that how one judges what are rules or not is to some extent at least subjective.
Just as interpretation and translation is subjective.
Just as the decision to "let God off the hook" and blame absolutely everything upon Satan, a created being, is subjective.
Just as the conscience is subjective regarding how one finds oneself. One of the best things VPW ever shared was that poem in the lift.
There are gay people who do not fear the judgement on this at least - I am one. That might make others tremble, but that is my conclusion, not reached without much thought, prayer and suffering, thought and study. Therefore I can no longer see it as negatively as others would like and rejoice when others have an easier time of it than I had.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
In case anyone was wondering about my rant.
I was trying to make the point that if you are going to accept your child's professed homosexuality, then you had better find out who he/she is having sex with, because it is well-established part of homosexual literature of a teens' first time being with an older partner.
Some gay teens have been molested and take it out on younger children.
There are consequences to the homosexual sex acts. Anal and oral sex isn't the only thing they do.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
Yes I was kind of wondering about your rant.
If you are going to accept YOUR child's professed heterosexuality
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
continued......
then you had better find out who she/he is having sex with because it is a well established part of heterosexual literature of a teens first time being "with anything he can fit it into".......
Some straight teens have been molested and take it out on younger children.......
There are consequences to heterosexual sex acts. Anal and oral sex isn't the only thing they do.
If you think it is then you definately got your head buried in the sand......probably where it's more comfortable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
subjective and personal really.
I do not fear about MY God being mean or punishing me in any way either Trefor, He is a God of LOVE not a bully.
that is my whole point.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
Quote: Anal and oral sex isn't all that they do....
What is it they do than, that is any different from heterosexual acts... I think many men would love to do the anal thing with their significant partner. Also, I noticed that many men's porn movies involve two women making love. Doesn't seem to bother you guys when it is two women. It's the man part that makes your ego's uncomfortable isn't it? A little too feminine for your male ego's huh? Well you know what, it ain't all about you.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.