Hmmmm. CM, I can relate. I want her to pursue her passion, regardless of the numb butts that stand in her way. Call me an idealist, but I do want to raise a child that is a contributing member of society.
Long Gone, I do not attend a "fundamentalist" church. I do, however, live in Texas.
Thanks for your honesty and candor. One of my daughter's closest friends is an amazingly talented boy, who happens to be gay. She has been friends with him since 5th grade, and I love him to pieces, as do lotza other people in his life. He also happens to be Jewish, which doesn't help his social status much.
Should she abandon her friendship because of "social pressure?" Methinks not. :)-->
Our teens deal with much complicated issues than I think I faced at their age. I just hope and pray that they "find themselves" in the midst of it all.
I only injected my child's personal life into this post because the original question in the thread was about gay teen-agers. As the mother of one, I guess I felt I might have a little insight into it on a practical level. Especially when it comes to school and such (she is a freshman in high school).
The thread went on to gain the momentum of a raging theological debate. I guess I just wanted to inject the fact that these children are real humans with the same emotions, wants, likes, dislikes, fear of failure, fear of rejection, self-doubt, roller coaster hormones and feelings. Have I sorted out where or how she bacame gay? Not really. Sometimes I think that it is the same as a birth defect (oh my God I know that makes me sound like a bad mom) but truly, if she had been born with a cleft lip or deformed hand, I wouldn't nor couldn't love her any less than I do now.
Outofdafog
No one's telling you not to love your daughter. Of course you should love her. We all love our children and none of them are perfect. But loving your child should not blind you to a problem or weakness your pecious little one may have. Loving them means being honest with them and encouraging them to seek help from God when they feel overwhelmed by something. Loving them also means teaching them that some things are sinful and dangerous and should be avoided.
You all jump to accuse the fundamentalists of being hard-hearted and call them Pharisees. Jesus walked perfectly in love did he not? Didn't he confront some people and tell them to change their ways? Everyone wants to quote the famous "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus spared the woman from execution, which was the legal punishment for adultery. Did he say, "I love you, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Those people are just being mean"? No. What were his last words to that woman? Anybody remember that?
quote:
Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Jesus forgave the woman. But he also recognized that she was living in sin and told her to stop. Why? Gee I guess maybe it was because he LOVED her.
There is a balance to this story that is ravaged in debates like this one. Just because someone in YOUR family is a homosexual and you LOVE them, doesn't mean that it's not a sin to be homosexual. I love my children too. One of them has had problems with irrational fear. I didn't just ingore it and reationalize because I love them. I prayed for the child and had them read the Word, and ministered to them. Love doesn't turn a blind eye to a spiritual problem, It confronts and defeats it so that the person can be helped and delivered.
I didn't just ingore it and reationalize because I love them. I prayed for the child and had them read the Word, and ministered to them. Love doesn't turn a blind eye to a spiritual problem, It confronts and defeats it so that the person can be helped and delivered.
I KNOW this is going to offend you and I apologize...but I will NEVER "counsel" my children in this minimalist manner. My children are thinking, feeling, logical, questioning beings that deserve to be heard, understood, validated, and allowed their own path for finding the 'truth'.
Prayer is powerful...reading is good...ministering is good...but effective communication and interactive listening is essential to proper formation of adolescents.
If I sit around wondering 'if' they will make it...then I haven't done my job as a parent very well, have I?
I ENCOURAGE my children to question EVERYTHING. What is there to be afraid of?
Nadda
God is strong enough, loving enough, and aware enough to still be there throughout the path my children take.
If I am motivated by the fear that they will 'trespass against god' .... what statement does that make about how REAL god is (or how real I am)
My god is real enough to be proof through whatever. (
I know you're not a fundamentalist, ex. I've just been having a little fun. I guess it's time for a more serious post.
My daughter is a theater major at UNT in Denton and was active in both high school theater and the community theater in a larger town not far from our little Northeast Texas town. Our small town has quite a large and influential conservative (though not all Fundamentalist) Christian population and is not too friendly toward homosexuals, but most of the kids are more tolerant than their parents, even though they throw around "gay" in the manner others have mentioned.
The drama program at my daughter's high school was mediocre until her junior year. In the Spring semester of that year, a new speech and drama teacher came in and immediately took their one act play to State. My daughter, who had the lead role, made the State all star cast. The teacher was planning to stay on the next year, excitement about the drama program was high, and lots of talented students who had chosen not to participate previously were changing their minds. Then suddenly, the news came that the teacher's contract would not be renewed. Why? Because he had let it slip that he was homosexual. I'm sure many people already suspected that and some pretty well knew it, but it wasn't really all that obvious. He was a big, manly looking black guy, who dressed normally and had no blatant stereotyical mannerisms, so you had to actually converse with him for a while to even suspect that he was gay. But once he actually mentioned it and that got back to the school board, he was as good as gone. Fortunately for him, he ended up in a much better position, but our local drama program went right back to being mediocre.
Two of the cast members and one crew member that year were fervent conservative Christians, very active in their churches. As far as I could tell, they thought as highly of that teacher as my daughter and the others did. I don't know if they suffered any grief from their Church friends, but I know that they were really nice kids who were friendly with all sorts of different people, and had been that way for years. One of them was scared to associate with my daughter for a year or so after she wore a shirt with a goat's head on the front and "Born Again Pagan" on the back, which she did in the latter part of her sophomore year, just to see what the reaction would be. (I don't remember where she got that shirt, but I didn't even know she had it until after she had worn it to school.) The "fraidy-cat" finally decided that my daughter wasn't a threat and was actually a pretty nice person, so they became friends again, the girl did my daughter's hair do for the senior prom, and she, the other conservative Christian girl from the theater group, and my daughter, as well as a couple of other Christians and some non-religious kids were among a group of four couples who went to the prom and an after party together.
I don't know what the point of all that was, except maybe that kids have to wrestle with things and figure them out, and they usually do. I bet your daughter will work through it just fine.
ha! Long Gone. My daughter has already decided on UNT for college. She will be a junior next year, and if we can get her through Algebra II, I think she's well on her way.
She's competing at the National Finals for theatre this year. Her team won state. Her thing is/was duet acting. Pretty good for a 10th grader. :)--> (Can you tell I'm proud of her?)
Oldest daughter will be at A&M in the Fall. It suits her, just as UNT suits 2nd daughter.
High school seems so much more serious than it did in my day... Thanks for the encouragement.
By the way, number one daughter, who is 3 weeks shy of graduation, just got detention for dying the ends of her hair pink. She was gonna get suspended if we didn't get the pink out before school this moring. (Did I mention she is a youth minister at church, an A student, and attending A&M on an athletic scholarship?)
Sheesh.
Seems really stupid to be worrying about pink hair, when kids are struggling with much deeper issues.
I just can't wait til my next child gets to high school.
I didn't just ingore it and reationalize because I love them. I prayed for the child and had them read the Word, and ministered to them. Love doesn't turn a blind eye to a spiritual problem, It confronts and defeats it so that the person can be helped and delivered.
I KNOW this is going to offend you and I apologize...but I will NEVER "counsel" my children in this minimalist manner. My children are thinking, feeling, logical, questioning beings that deserve to be heard, understood, validated, and allowed their own path for finding the 'truth'.
Prayer is powerful...reading is good...ministering is good...but effective communication and interactive listening is essential to proper formation of adolescents.
If I sit around wondering 'if' they will make it...then I haven't done my job as a parent very well, have I?
I ENCOURAGE my children to question EVERYTHING. What is there to be afraid of?
Nadda
God is strong enough, loving enough, and aware enough to still be there throughout the path my children take.
If I am motivated by the fear that they will 'trespass against god' .... what statement does that make about how REAL god is (or how real I am)
My god is real enough to be proof through whatever. (
I'm sorry but I don't see the connection. You assume that I'm afraid that my children might question things. Where did that come from? I encourage them to think critically and to analyze, and question what they're taught. But I also know that, as adolescents, there are things that I understand that they don't. And, as a parent, it's my job to protect them from certain things until they're mature enough to deal with them. But that's not what I was talking about, so I don't see the connection between my post and your reply. Perhaps I'm missing something.
What I was referring to is helping my child to overcome what I perceived to be a spiritual problem. I did it mainly by praying for them and encouraging them to just read the Bible. I had faith that prayer and exposure to the truths in the Bible would displace the negative spiritual influences and correct the wrong thinking. And guess what? It worked. The fear is gone and now my youngster has a little better understanding of how God works. I think that's what Christian parenting is supposed to accomplish. We protect our children and teach them at the same time.
By the way; speaking of love and parenting. I should also add that if my child were considering, or being tempted with homosexuality, I would tell them that the average life expectancy of a lesbian woman is about 45 years of age and the average life expectancy of a homosexual man (who doesn't die of AIDS) is 41. You would certainly tell your teenage child about the dangers of drunk driving and drug abuse. A "lifestyle" that will probably cut their life expectancy in half should be treated the same way--as an unhealthy choice.
Jbaryuks thinks the kid has a weakness from this path they have "chosen". Hmm, who CHOOSES to be gay and to put up with this abuse? It would take a pretty strong person not a weak one to choose to be gay. Choose.... yeah right, like hmm, should I turn left or right at the next intersection. Its so simple..... yuck.
heck, for that matter, many here at the cafe are divorced, have committed adultery and other of the "sins". what is it that makes this homosexual "sin" so different from the other so-called sins. Why is homosexuality a weakness, but the others are just part of ones life? Heck, we even elect these other sinners to national office. Next the fundies will be after the rest of us sinners with the same vengeance.
I dunno, it seems preposterous to me that the likes of James Dobson and his Focus on the Family nuts have such blind eyes to issues of much more consequential importance.
Outadafog- teach your daughter to have pride, by demonstrating the pride you have in her. I am sure you do that already, but I wanted to say it. She is not weak, and she does not have a "problem" that needs to be corrected.
Now here is something interesting.I have been involved in Pfal classes where obviously Homosexual persons have gotten born again(s.i.t.etc..)
Since being out of TWI I have run classes where obvious homosexual persons have gotten born again.Some changed, some didn't!!I think Gods' love is pretty vast!!
The foolishness of God is still greater than the wisdom of men!!
To me the word 'fundamentalist has a negative connotation: sure, in pro sports you occasionally hear a commentator say that such and such player is good at the fundamentals of the game, but in context of religion the word 'fundamentalist' means narrow minded, legalistic, there's only one right way to do anything and I know what it is and anyone who doesn't do it that way is either going to hell or just plain screwed up. Well, with that in mind, there are fundamentalist Christians and there are fundamentalist homos, too.
Last Oct. 19 I saw REM in concert, whose lead singer, Michael Stipe, is openly gay. He likes to talk (share) with the crowd. They'd play 4 or 5 songs in a row and then he'd talk for a couple of minutes or so before doing any more songs; crowd was mostly OK with it.
Most of what he talked about was that he went to HS in the STL area, saw Blondie in the late 70s at the same venue and swears Debra Harry smiled at him...stuff like that, but at one point he waxed political. He reminded everybody that the election was coming up in 2 weeks and said basically to get out and vote because that's who we are as Americans. He didn't say vote for Kerry or you're screwed up; didn't say anything at all about gay rights, just to make the effort to vote. I would be really surprised to find out he voted for Bush. But at least he allowed for me to make a different choice than he. Not all gay people are like that.
Cindy, that definition of tolerance was rally cool. I am going to remember that when I start hearing someone talk about "tolerance" toward others that are different than them. I am sure that is a great little tidbit for x10 to share with her daughter also. I don't allow my daughter to participate in name calling or bullying of what some kids consider "geeks" or "nerds" or "too fat" or too skinny" or "too poor" or "to rich" to fit in.
Thank you HAP - for saying what I was going to say, probably way better than I would have said it. There ain't gonna be no prayers over her head, casting out demons, speaking in tongues or excorcisms. Not even therapy, because trying to "fix" something that they don't think needs "fixin" can cause a whole 'nother set of problems. She feels really good about herself as a person and is totally comfortable with who she is. I accept her totally as the person that she is.
As I believe I stated earlier in this thread, God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality, but because of inhospitality. RED FLAG RED FLAG.Maybe some churches oughta consider the consequences of their "inhospitable" attitude toward those who are in their eyes "different".
And Jbaraxx - with all due respect, I still wouldn't let her go to church with you. If she's feeling really great about herself, why would I send her to church (which is supposed to be an edifying, all inclusive place) and have her come back home thinking she is possessed by devil spirits and needs to be ministered to. Thanks but no thanks. Perhaps some "christians" need to consider why homosexuality makes them so uncomfortable and why they feel the need to fix it for God. I am sure God will have it all sorted out on his timetable.
Thanks EX10 for letting me share on this thread. It has been very helpful for me as well. It helps to see the vast opinions out there regarding this topic and will help me to rear her with more of a "hospitable" attitude toward those who are different than her.
By the way; speaking of love and parenting. I should also add that if my child were considering, or being tempted with homosexuality, I would tell them that the average life expectancy of a lesbian woman is about 45 years of age and the average life expectancy of a homosexual man (who doesn't die of AIDS) is 41.
Wouldn’t it be better to tell them the truth? Those figures are from Paul Cameron, a rabid anti-homosexual, and they’re completely bogus. You know how he came up with them? By comparing obituaries in homosexual newspapers with those in conventional newspapers.
Those gay papers, many of which are distributed for free at bars and other places gays and lesbians gather, target urban homosexuals who are active in the homosexual community. They’re mostly younger people, because older people of any persuasion tend to settle down. The obituaries are submitted by the readers, and are mostly about people whose deaths they consider newsworthy, either because they are well known in the gay community or because their death is untimely. So obituaries in gay papers over-represent younger gays and under-represent older ones. They over-represent urban homosexuals and under-represent suburban and rural ones. They over-represent more active (not necessarily in a sexual sense) homosexuals, who live riskier lives, and under-represent quiet, passive ones, who live less risky lives. And they represent only homosexuals who are publicly “out” and don’t even represent at all those who are not. Obituaries in conventional papers include homosexuals without identifying them as such. They are not representative of the heterosexual population. So neither source provides useful data for the stated purpose, and the numbers are not even close to being accurate. But they were never intended to be. They were intended to promote an anti-homosexual agenda through deception.
"Would it be fair to say that frisky "risky" homosexuals have a lower life expectancy than frisky "risky" heterosexuals?
I do believe that homo sex is riskier than hetero sex, due to the penchant for buggery... "
It is generally assumed that Homosexuals are more promiscuous than Heterosexuals. Saying this will likely enrage the 'pro-homosexual' crowd, and I am sorry but it needs to be said. I have no statistics on the subject, and I would tend to doubt any statistics shown anyway.
It has been my experience that heterosexual women don’t make a pass at me, unless I am talking to them and 'opening' up to them to begin with. Whereas Homosexual men have been far more likely to approach me and make a pass, without even a conversation having already been in progress. From those experiences alone I would have to say that promiscuous-homosexual men are far more ‘at-risk’, than say promiscuous-heterosexual women.
From that life-experiences impression that I have gained, I would have to side with the assumption that promiscuous-homosexuals are at higher risk than promiscuous-heterosexuals.
On the other hand, I don’t know that ‘buggery’ is such an entirely high risk adventure. [it is kind of neat that in America buggery can be used in public without being considered such a horrible word, whereas when we lived in Scotland. It was used, but like ‘bloody’ they were bad words not to be used in public].
That is great about your daughter going to the National Finals, ex10. Both you and she should be proud. Same thing regarding your oldest daughter, pink hair or not.
My daughter died her hair purple once, but that was after she graduated from high school, and she died it back to her natural color (well, almost) shortly afterward. Things like that are silly, IMO, but they're harmless.
Jonny, I wouldn't feel safe in saying anything about life expectancy without reliable statistics. The homosexuals I've known seem to be as likely to be healthy and long-lived as the heterosexuals I've known, if not more likely. I've known a lot of people who have died at relatively young ages. Only one has been homosexual and his death had nothing at all to do with his homosexuality.
" ...i'm sorry, i was going to keep quiet, but that one couldn't be left alone..."
I beleive that what you were reffering to was specifically and purposefully stated within the context of: promiscuous-heterosexuals verses promiscuous-homosexuals.
Which specifically leaves out the "long-term couples" that you wish to use as examples of why promiscuous people dont have higher risk.
The higher the promiscuous-ness of a person, it is generally assumed that they lead a higher risk life than non-promiscuous people, which is why the posts were plced within that context.
:-)
"and as a side note, divorce is far more condemd in the bible then homosexuality."
Huh?
The Bible gives specific guidelines for divorce, it allows divorce. Even Jesus re-confirmed such. Neither the Old Testament, nor the New Testament is found to 'condemn' Divorce.
Whereas homosexuality is specifically mentioned and drawn out as a bad thing.
Granted I think that we should still love everyone.
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ex10
Hmmmm. CM, I can relate. I want her to pursue her passion, regardless of the numb butts that stand in her way. Call me an idealist, but I do want to raise a child that is a contributing member of society.
Long Gone, I do not attend a "fundamentalist" church. I do, however, live in Texas.
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CM
It did kind of take the wind out of his sail, but we continue to encourage him. And he sings all the time. Annoying sometimes-lol.
The Junior High teacher may work with him on some special projects this summer though.
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Allan
I think what CM said kind of proves what Galen was saying that THE WHOLE WORLD DISCRIMINATES !
Even by saying "first come,first served" could
be called discriminatory.
Makes me wonder when Jesus said "he that is first shall be last and he that is last shall be first".
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ex10
outof,
Thanks for your honesty and candor. One of my daughter's closest friends is an amazingly talented boy, who happens to be gay. She has been friends with him since 5th grade, and I love him to pieces, as do lotza other people in his life. He also happens to be Jewish, which doesn't help his social status much.
Should she abandon her friendship because of "social pressure?" Methinks not.
:)-->
Our teens deal with much complicated issues than I think I faced at their age. I just hope and pray that they "find themselves" in the midst of it all.
smooches.
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Cindy!
I SOOO agree, ex10.
Friends.....MUCH more important than social pressure and religion.
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Jbarrax
Outofdafog
No one's telling you not to love your daughter. Of course you should love her. We all love our children and none of them are perfect. But loving your child should not blind you to a problem or weakness your pecious little one may have. Loving them means being honest with them and encouraging them to seek help from God when they feel overwhelmed by something. Loving them also means teaching them that some things are sinful and dangerous and should be avoided.
You all jump to accuse the fundamentalists of being hard-hearted and call them Pharisees. Jesus walked perfectly in love did he not? Didn't he confront some people and tell them to change their ways? Everyone wants to quote the famous "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Jesus spared the woman from execution, which was the legal punishment for adultery. Did he say, "I love you, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Those people are just being mean"? No. What were his last words to that woman? Anybody remember that?
Jesus forgave the woman. But he also recognized that she was living in sin and told her to stop. Why? Gee I guess maybe it was because he LOVED her.
There is a balance to this story that is ravaged in debates like this one. Just because someone in YOUR family is a homosexual and you LOVE them, doesn't mean that it's not a sin to be homosexual. I love my children too. One of them has had problems with irrational fear. I didn't just ingore it and reationalize because I love them. I prayed for the child and had them read the Word, and ministered to them. Love doesn't turn a blind eye to a spiritual problem, It confronts and defeats it so that the person can be helped and delivered.
Peace
JerryB
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Cindy!
I KNOW this is going to offend you and I apologize...but I will NEVER "counsel" my children in this minimalist manner. My children are thinking, feeling, logical, questioning beings that deserve to be heard, understood, validated, and allowed their own path for finding the 'truth'.
Prayer is powerful...reading is good...ministering is good...but effective communication and interactive listening is essential to proper formation of adolescents.
If I sit around wondering 'if' they will make it...then I haven't done my job as a parent very well, have I?
I ENCOURAGE my children to question EVERYTHING. What is there to be afraid of?
Nadda
God is strong enough, loving enough, and aware enough to still be there throughout the path my children take.
If I am motivated by the fear that they will 'trespass against god' .... what statement does that make about how REAL god is (or how real I am)
My god is real enough to be proof through whatever. (
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LG
I know you're not a fundamentalist, ex. I've just been having a little fun. I guess it's time for a more serious post.
My daughter is a theater major at UNT in Denton and was active in both high school theater and the community theater in a larger town not far from our little Northeast Texas town. Our small town has quite a large and influential conservative (though not all Fundamentalist) Christian population and is not too friendly toward homosexuals, but most of the kids are more tolerant than their parents, even though they throw around "gay" in the manner others have mentioned.
The drama program at my daughter's high school was mediocre until her junior year. In the Spring semester of that year, a new speech and drama teacher came in and immediately took their one act play to State. My daughter, who had the lead role, made the State all star cast. The teacher was planning to stay on the next year, excitement about the drama program was high, and lots of talented students who had chosen not to participate previously were changing their minds. Then suddenly, the news came that the teacher's contract would not be renewed. Why? Because he had let it slip that he was homosexual. I'm sure many people already suspected that and some pretty well knew it, but it wasn't really all that obvious. He was a big, manly looking black guy, who dressed normally and had no blatant stereotyical mannerisms, so you had to actually converse with him for a while to even suspect that he was gay. But once he actually mentioned it and that got back to the school board, he was as good as gone. Fortunately for him, he ended up in a much better position, but our local drama program went right back to being mediocre.
Two of the cast members and one crew member that year were fervent conservative Christians, very active in their churches. As far as I could tell, they thought as highly of that teacher as my daughter and the others did. I don't know if they suffered any grief from their Church friends, but I know that they were really nice kids who were friendly with all sorts of different people, and had been that way for years. One of them was scared to associate with my daughter for a year or so after she wore a shirt with a goat's head on the front and "Born Again Pagan" on the back, which she did in the latter part of her sophomore year, just to see what the reaction would be. (I don't remember where she got that shirt, but I didn't even know she had it until after she had worn it to school.) The "fraidy-cat" finally decided that my daughter wasn't a threat and was actually a pretty nice person, so they became friends again, the girl did my daughter's hair do for the senior prom, and she, the other conservative Christian girl from the theater group, and my daughter, as well as a couple of other Christians and some non-religious kids were among a group of four couples who went to the prom and an after party together.
I don't know what the point of all that was, except maybe that kids have to wrestle with things and figure them out, and they usually do. I bet your daughter will work through it just fine.
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lovematters
ex10,
You haven't mentioned if the young fellow is sexually active. THAT does matter where his health is concerned.
Besides the regular STDs and good old fashioned AIDS, there is also a new and particularly nasty strain of AIDs that doesn't discriminate.
Be aware that young homosexuals have sex with members of the opposite sex. See Kinsey.
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ex10
ha! Long Gone. My daughter has already decided on UNT for college. She will be a junior next year, and if we can get her through Algebra II,
I think she's well on her way.
She's competing at the National Finals for theatre this year. Her team won state. Her thing is/was duet acting. Pretty good for a 10th grader.
:)--> (Can you tell I'm proud of her?)
Oldest daughter will be at A&M in the Fall. It suits her, just as UNT suits 2nd daughter.
High school seems so much more serious than it did in my day... Thanks for the encouragement.
By the way, number one daughter, who is 3 weeks shy of graduation, just got detention for dying the ends of her hair pink. She was gonna get suspended if we didn't get the pink out before school this moring. (Did I mention she is a youth minister at church, an A student, and attending A&M on an athletic scholarship?)
Sheesh.
Seems really stupid to be worrying about pink hair, when kids are struggling with much deeper issues.
I just can't wait til my next child gets to high school.
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Jbarrax
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ex10
Lovematters,
No worries there. but thanks for the heads up.
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lovematters
Just pray there's no heads down.
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HAPe4me
Jbaryuks thinks the kid has a weakness from this path they have "chosen". Hmm, who CHOOSES to be gay and to put up with this abuse? It would take a pretty strong person not a weak one to choose to be gay. Choose.... yeah right, like hmm, should I turn left or right at the next intersection. Its so simple..... yuck.
heck, for that matter, many here at the cafe are divorced, have committed adultery and other of the "sins". what is it that makes this homosexual "sin" so different from the other so-called sins. Why is homosexuality a weakness, but the others are just part of ones life? Heck, we even elect these other sinners to national office. Next the fundies will be after the rest of us sinners with the same vengeance.
I dunno, it seems preposterous to me that the likes of James Dobson and his Focus on the Family nuts have such blind eyes to issues of much more consequential importance.
Outadafog- teach your daughter to have pride, by demonstrating the pride you have in her. I am sure you do that already, but I wanted to say it. She is not weak, and she does not have a "problem" that needs to be corrected.
Pace, pax, etc.
-HAP
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Allan
Now here is something interesting.I have been involved in Pfal classes where obviously Homosexual persons have gotten born again(s.i.t.etc..)
Since being out of TWI I have run classes where obvious homosexual persons have gotten born again.Some changed, some didn't!!I think Gods' love is pretty vast!!
The foolishness of God is still greater than the wisdom of men!!
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johniam
To me the word 'fundamentalist has a negative connotation: sure, in pro sports you occasionally hear a commentator say that such and such player is good at the fundamentals of the game, but in context of religion the word 'fundamentalist' means narrow minded, legalistic, there's only one right way to do anything and I know what it is and anyone who doesn't do it that way is either going to hell or just plain screwed up. Well, with that in mind, there are fundamentalist Christians and there are fundamentalist homos, too.
Last Oct. 19 I saw REM in concert, whose lead singer, Michael Stipe, is openly gay. He likes to talk (share) with the crowd. They'd play 4 or 5 songs in a row and then he'd talk for a couple of minutes or so before doing any more songs; crowd was mostly OK with it.
Most of what he talked about was that he went to HS in the STL area, saw Blondie in the late 70s at the same venue and swears Debra Harry smiled at him...stuff like that, but at one point he waxed political. He reminded everybody that the election was coming up in 2 weeks and said basically to get out and vote because that's who we are as Americans. He didn't say vote for Kerry or you're screwed up; didn't say anything at all about gay rights, just to make the effort to vote. I would be really surprised to find out he voted for Bush. But at least he allowed for me to make a different choice than he. Not all gay people are like that.
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outofdafog
Cindy, that definition of tolerance was rally cool. I am going to remember that when I start hearing someone talk about "tolerance" toward others that are different than them. I am sure that is a great little tidbit for x10 to share with her daughter also. I don't allow my daughter to participate in name calling or bullying of what some kids consider "geeks" or "nerds" or "too fat" or too skinny" or "too poor" or "to rich" to fit in.
Thank you HAP - for saying what I was going to say, probably way better than I would have said it. There ain't gonna be no prayers over her head, casting out demons, speaking in tongues or excorcisms. Not even therapy, because trying to "fix" something that they don't think needs "fixin" can cause a whole 'nother set of problems. She feels really good about herself as a person and is totally comfortable with who she is. I accept her totally as the person that she is.
As I believe I stated earlier in this thread, God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexuality, but because of inhospitality. RED FLAG RED FLAG.Maybe some churches oughta consider the consequences of their "inhospitable" attitude toward those who are in their eyes "different".
And Jbaraxx - with all due respect, I still wouldn't let her go to church with you. If she's feeling really great about herself, why would I send her to church (which is supposed to be an edifying, all inclusive place) and have her come back home thinking she is possessed by devil spirits and needs to be ministered to. Thanks but no thanks. Perhaps some "christians" need to consider why homosexuality makes them so uncomfortable and why they feel the need to fix it for God. I am sure God will have it all sorted out on his timetable.
Thanks EX10 for letting me share on this thread. It has been very helpful for me as well. It helps to see the vast opinions out there regarding this topic and will help me to rear her with more of a "hospitable" attitude toward those who are different than her.
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LG
Those gay papers, many of which are distributed for free at bars and other places gays and lesbians gather, target urban homosexuals who are active in the homosexual community. They’re mostly younger people, because older people of any persuasion tend to settle down. The obituaries are submitted by the readers, and are mostly about people whose deaths they consider newsworthy, either because they are well known in the gay community or because their death is untimely. So obituaries in gay papers over-represent younger gays and under-represent older ones. They over-represent urban homosexuals and under-represent suburban and rural ones. They over-represent more active (not necessarily in a sexual sense) homosexuals, who live riskier lives, and under-represent quiet, passive ones, who live less risky lives. And they represent only homosexuals who are publicly “out” and don’t even represent at all those who are not. Obituaries in conventional papers include homosexuals without identifying them as such. They are not representative of the heterosexual population. So neither source provides useful data for the stated purpose, and the numbers are not even close to being accurate. But they were never intended to be. They were intended to promote an anti-homosexual agenda through deception.
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J0nny Ling0
Would it be fair to say that frisky "risky" homosexuals have a lower life expectancy than frisky "risky" heterosexuals?
I do believe that homo sex is riskier than hetero sex, due to the penchant for buggery...
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Galen
Jonny Lingo:
"Would it be fair to say that frisky "risky" homosexuals have a lower life expectancy than frisky "risky" heterosexuals?
I do believe that homo sex is riskier than hetero sex, due to the penchant for buggery...
"
It is generally assumed that Homosexuals are more promiscuous than Heterosexuals. Saying this will likely enrage the 'pro-homosexual' crowd, and I am sorry but it needs to be said. I have no statistics on the subject, and I would tend to doubt any statistics shown anyway.
It has been my experience that heterosexual women don’t make a pass at me, unless I am talking to them and 'opening' up to them to begin with. Whereas Homosexual men have been far more likely to approach me and make a pass, without even a conversation having already been in progress. From those experiences alone I would have to say that promiscuous-homosexual men are far more ‘at-risk’, than say promiscuous-heterosexual women.
From that life-experiences impression that I have gained, I would have to side with the assumption that promiscuous-homosexuals are at higher risk than promiscuous-heterosexuals.
On the other hand, I don’t know that ‘buggery’ is such an entirely high risk adventure. [it is kind of neat that in America buggery can be used in public without being considered such a horrible word, whereas when we lived in Scotland. It was used, but like ‘bloody’ they were bad words not to be used in public].
:-)
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Steve!
Oh, no! She's going to be an Aggie? Please say it isn't so! Oh, the shame, the shame!
And you're okay with it? What's the matter with you?
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LG
That is great about your daughter going to the National Finals, ex10. Both you and she should be proud. Same thing regarding your oldest daughter, pink hair or not.
My daughter died her hair purple once, but that was after she graduated from high school, and she died it back to her natural color (well, almost) shortly afterward. Things like that are silly, IMO, but they're harmless.
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LG
Jonny, I wouldn't feel safe in saying anything about life expectancy without reliable statistics. The homosexuals I've known seem to be as likely to be healthy and long-lived as the heterosexuals I've known, if not more likely. I've known a lot of people who have died at relatively young ages. Only one has been homosexual and his death had nothing at all to do with his homosexuality.
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Galen
sharon:
" ...i'm sorry, i was going to keep quiet, but that one couldn't be left alone..."
I beleive that what you were reffering to was specifically and purposefully stated within the context of: promiscuous-heterosexuals verses promiscuous-homosexuals.
Which specifically leaves out the "long-term couples" that you wish to use as examples of why promiscuous people dont have higher risk.
The higher the promiscuous-ness of a person, it is generally assumed that they lead a higher risk life than non-promiscuous people, which is why the posts were plced within that context.
:-)
"and as a side note, divorce is far more condemd in the bible then homosexuality."
Huh?
The Bible gives specific guidelines for divorce, it allows divorce. Even Jesus re-confirmed such. Neither the Old Testament, nor the New Testament is found to 'condemn' Divorce.
Whereas homosexuality is specifically mentioned and drawn out as a bad thing.
Granted I think that we should still love everyone.
:-)
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