I notice that since I posted about my child, not one person has really directed their comments at me.
I don't understand this statement. I have a gay brother and find it very difficult to discuss this issue because it seems to somehow make him differant, less, worse than, or whatever, than anyone else.
Of the many many things he's taught me, the most valuable is that he does not want me or my girls to fight about this with people.
It's a non issue, just as anyone else in our family. We don't discuss it to death, wonder about it, ask why/who/what/when/how questions; he's no differant than any of us in our family.
outofdafog, I don't know what it is you wish us to say in regards to your daughter. I, for one, have nothing to say. She's your child, as my children are my children. Then end.
I don't think she or you need validation, permission, recognition or any of the other attention getting things straight people are so uncomfortable with.
I don't introduce my brothers selectively "This is Ted, he's gay, this is Brian, he's an architect, this is Bill, he's a mechanic"
I don't understand, I guess.
Should her uncle's homosexuality be a topic of my daughter's share time during snack at school?
"We went to the beach, had lunch at Arf and Barf and stopped to see my gay uncle"
Fair enough when science teachers quit teaching abstract theories as scientific truth. If your going to teach assunptions which by defenition is what theories are then it would be only fair to let everyone assume! That is equal treatment!.
Please don't bring up the big bang, evolution, or any other scientific facts that are misconstrued all too often by both sides of the argument. A seperate thread would be ok but to add it to this one which is already debating about gays in such a way that won't really help ex10 is probably going to get worse. We should start another topic.
This is a discussion forum and I put my 2 cents in. I just think it's funny how they spew all their righteous indignation out at gay people, but they don't know the reality of living it day to day. Why don't they ask that? It sounds so wonderful and flowery and godly when they spout their bible verses. You know darn well gays are discriminated against. And so if I take a stand and discuss it, it ultimately leads me to being a better mother and helping her along the way.
And no, I do not go around introducing my daughter as a gay teenager. Or telling everyone she is gay. You got me all wrong about the point I was trying to make.
"Galen... an argument that deletes important facts sounds strong, but is weak to an experienced eye."
"Unless you are listed and recognized as providing "low-income", HUD, Section 8 or any program that allowed you tax benefits, construction loans, or lower interest rates committing yourself to such, you most certainly can deny any applicant based on income, ability to pay, credit reports and past rental history. CT to CA..."
At one time, we did rent to low-income people because we were in a 'Title' contract with the state.
We certainly can use credit ratings, and ability to pay.
However unless you are using that specific program you can not use income alone, it is listing among the Tenant-landlord laws of the state.
For our California place, we did it ourselves for a few years, then let the manager take care of it and did not really stick my nose into it.
Ex10, you need to make up your mind. ARE homos born that way, or are they NOT? How's your daughter going to get any answers if you don't have any?
Why does she or anyone else “need” to make up her mind and decide between those two choices? First, neither is likely to be completely correct in any case, and almost certainly not in all cases. Second, if the honest answer were “I don’t know” or “it’s more complicated than ‘either-or,’” then any choice would be arbitrary and would not be a real “answer.” Third, children don’t automatically accept their parents’ answers, especially if they’re arbitrary.
How many heterosexuals decided, “I’m going to be heterosexual?” I didn’t. I didn’t give it any thought at all. I never decided that women are sexually attractive but men aren’t, yet that’s how it is for me. Why in the world should anyone be so presumptuous as to assume that someone else made such a decision, but in reverse?
Was I born heterosexual? Is my sexual orientation a mostly involuntary product of my environment? Is it some combination of the two? Am I even strictly heterosexual? I certainly am as far as practice is concerned, and I’m not attracted to men in any sort of sexual way, but could I be? Would I be in some circumstances? I honestly don’t know. Don’t really care either. As long as I weren’t hurting other people, what difference would it really make?
Suppose that homosexuality is purely by choice. What makes it so bad? Is it bad for two men or two women to voluntarily hold hands or kiss? Why? Is it bad for two men or two women to privately give each other pleasure in more intimate ways? Why? Just because someone else thinks it’s disgusting? Well, I think that eating raw fish is disgusting. Yet people do it, shamelessly, right out in public. Damn perverts!
"When did the gays specifically ask to be given rights that no one else has?"
I assume that they were the ones who fought for protection as a seperate class, so your asnwer would be when THEY did it.
I can't imagine that the NRA decided "Lets go find some group and lobby for them to have more rights".
"And besides, what is it about renting to a gay person or couple that really takes your rights away, hmmm?"
You have not read everything previous in this thread?
"And this thing about 'seperating them to be a separate caste in our society' is hardly what the vast majority of gays/lesbians want."
I have no idea what they want.
"That's Yet More Propaganda from Focus on the Family machine."
Thats Pat Robertson isn't it? What is their stance? Do you follow them now?
"You know, and I know that this 'special rights' song-and-dance is just a straw man argument covering up for this 'gays are sinners and do not deserve equal rights' mentality. Hell, how many times has a Christian gotten special treatment one way or another, and you didn't raise this much of a fuss over it, hmmm?"
You can't give biased treatment over religion either.
If you think that you have been passed-over for a job due to religion, you have remedys available because again such is listed among the various things that you can not discriminate for.
I don't like anyone being listed, for special treatment, due to anything.
When their is a job opening, the employer should be able to fill the opening with anyone he wants to fill it with. In theory he should be able to pick whom he feels is the best qualified, but that is not the case. If he picks through favoratism, then fine, his company will not do nearly as well and he will suffer for it. But that should be his choice, if he is an employer.
"I know that mentality well; hell, I used to embrace it myself, so I know the game plan, chief"
I am not a chief, I am a First Class Petty Officer. I was once accused for presenting myself off as a chief, I was found innocent. However to allow someone else to thnk that you are a higher rank, is a federal crime under the UCMJ. Having been charged with this previously, I learned from the experience. In the previous case, someone addressed me as "Chief", and I did not immediately correct them. Which led to charges being filed against me.
"I have seen this movie before here on GS. Nobody changes their opinions (and that is what they are because no one has any proof to validate their argument)."
Well this is a kind of open debate forum.
"Some of these answers give me flashbacks to STS in the auditorium with Loyboy spitting all over himself and others in his rage against homosexuality."
I apologize if I have made you to feel bad, or caused distress.
:-)
"All I know is that I have a gay daughter and I love her with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and would fight to my death for her. My child is no different than yours, she gets all A's and B's, works part-time after school, has lots of friends, goes to parties, shops for clothes, chats on the phone, internet and listens to her MP3 player."
I am sure that you do love her, as we should all love our children. She sounds like a fairly average kid.
"According to some of you posters, she has demons, or I sinned in a previous life or some other crap like that."
I have no idea why one person is homosexual and another is not. It does seem to be far more often of late though, I dont think that there would ever really be any method of tracking such, as previously society did not approve and as such even if someone had tendencies leaning toward homosexuality they were under far more pressure to hide that part of themselves. So any statistics would likely be suspect.
I did not mean to imply that you had sinned in some way which caused your daugher to be so. I do realise that the Bible does mention how the sins of the father are carried over to the son. I understand this in the context that when we walk in sinful habits ourselves then our children learn to walk in the same way.
My father has terrible impulse control when it comes to controlling his temper. But around adults he manages to control himself, when he is around children or pets is when he lashes out. But as he told me many times, when you train a child or an animal you beat them and eventually they will figure out what you want them to do, so just keep on beating them. There are others who would say that you can train using 'love' but that takes more time and effort. It is easier to beat things, and hurts less if you use whips or rods then if you used your own hands and feet.
Now in my life, I have 'fought' that lack of impulse control, and I have fought against my bio-father's teachings. So I do know that to some degree what a parent does gets carried over to children, but it can also be controlled.
In the case of Homosexuality, I dont think that it absolutely must be spiritual. I do think that in our society today being surrounded by others who say they are such, or seeing it on TV everyday, etc. Would certainly make it easier for anyone with a pre-disposition towards that, to more openly go there.
"I notice that since I posted about my child, not one person has really directed their comments at me."
Again I apologize.
"... They preach their little sermons all around and sound so self righteous. If you ain't gotta live it, then don't worry about it. She's not gonna pollute your little self-righteous gene pool, nor would I ever let her go to church with you."
I did not intend to be preaching at you, sorry.
I know that I was a sinner, and that 'Grace' has been my only hope of 'Righteousness'. If I sounded like it was from myself, then I am sorry. I think that we all need the Love and Grace of our Heavenly Father.
Obviously I do feel that if your healing has progressed enough, then you should search out some church, or some group of beleivers somewhere, to assist you and to offer you their support directly.
"Whoa to you scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites! My bible teaches that the "law of love" now supersedes the law. Oh I am sorry except for homosexuals, God really didn't mean that when it comes to them. Shame on you!"
And no, I do not go around introducing my daughter as a gay teenager. Or telling everyone she is gay. You got me all wrong about the point I was trying to make.
That was not the point I thought you were trying to make.
You missed my point, as well, apparently.
We are not communicating, unfortunately.
I guess my point is that there need not be a point. Society says there must be.
I only injected my child's personal life into this post because the original question in the thread was about gay teen-agers. As the mother of one, I guess I felt I might have a little insight into it on a practical level. Especially when it comes to school and such (she is a freshman in high school).
The thread went on to gain the momentum of a raging theological debate. I guess I just wanted to inject the fact that these children are real humans with the same emotions, wants, likes, dislikes, fear of failure, fear of rejection, self-doubt, roller coaster hormones and feelings. Have I sorted out where or how she bacame gay? Not really. Sometimes I think that it is the same as a birth defect (oh my God I know that makes me sound like a bad mom) but truly, if she had been born with a cleft lip or deformed hand, I wouldn't nor couldn't love her any less than I do now.
I don't know all the answers, just that we all need and desire love and acceptance and that is the best I can teach her.
I agree! but it was not me who brought it up. You seemed to miss the fact that I did not bring it up My post was a responce to Page 2 Longgones attempt to bash christions because we don't buy the theories yes (theories look it up in a webster)anti God that are espoused in science class Theories are Theories and equal time should be given to all or none.
I agree! but it was not me who brought it up. You seemed to miss the fact that I did not bring it up My post was a responce to Page 2 Longgones attempt to bash christions...
It wasn't an attempt to bash anyone. It was a response to Evan's response to my joke. Neither it nor the joke had anything to do with Christians in general.
I joked about Fundamentalism, not Christianity. Evan responded about not seeking special treatment. I cited an example of some Fundamentalists seeking special treatment. That's all there was to it.
I guess I’d better make this clear. I’m not a fundi-phobe. The Fundamentalists I know are every bit as decent, loving, and law-abiding as anyone else. I have no problem with them being open about their Fundamentalism, as long as they’re not “in your face” about it. I wouldn’t choose that lifestyle, but I don’t feel threatened by others who do. I also have no problem with people engaging in consensual Fundamentalist acts. I figure that what consenting adults do in private is none of my business. I do think that public displays of Fundamentalism can sometimes be unseemly, but that’s a matter of courtesy, rather than a problem with Fundamentalism itself.
Fundamentalists should not be shunned, denigrated, or denied equal protection of the laws and decent treatment in society.
" ... The Fundamentalists I know are every bit as decent, loving, and law-abiding as anyone else. I have no problem with them being open about their Fundamentalism, as long as they’re not “in your face” about it. I wouldn’t choose that lifestyle, but I don’t feel threatened by others who do. I also have no problem with people engaging in consensual Fundamentalist acts. I figure that what consenting adults do in private is none of my business. I do think that public displays of Fundamentalism can sometimes be unseemly, but that’s a matter of courtesy, rather than a problem with Fundamentalism itself. Fundamentalists should not be shunned, denigrated, or denied equal protection of the laws and decent treatment in society."
I admit that I am a 'fundy'.
I am not real evangelical about it though.
To the degree that fundys can fit in with the rest of society, I think that they should get equal treatment along with all other citizens, but I do not think that they should be a sepearate class sepearately guaranteed any rights.
It seems we're on page three now of this thread and there's a plythora of answers, opinions and debates...
From your initial post it seems like your daughter's school is a christian school, correct? (i.e. the comment about how all the Christian kids shun the gays.)
I don't mean to offend here, but I remember knowing who was "out" in my school because they talked about it. They were more than open - they got into 'details'. Sorry, but hetro or homo - that's just TMI (too much information)! My husband, who is a public high school teacher, has told me about students he has had who have done similar things.
Are the homosexual teens shunned, perhaps, for reasons other than just being homosexual?
Also, in answer to your question about explaining this all to your daughter, I think you would need to base it on the point of view and/or beliefs that the "Christian" kids are coming from. I'm sure there's some teaching on the subject in her school/church that you could base this on....
However, the reason WHY there are homosexuals is a theological, biological or other-ogical thing for you to explain, as you see fit, to your daughter. This is a diverse forum and I can only hope that the posters here will "play nice with others" on this subject... but you're going to get every answer under the sun here...
I just read this in my nea magazine (that's a magazine for teachers). In response to a previous article on gays in education, it said:
'Your April article "Teaching Tolerance" was obscene. Tolerance means willfully enduring something unpleasant. Teachers should not "tolerate" gay students any more than they should "tolerate" African-American students. Tolerance is not what gay students need; respect and dignity are. Nothing else is acceptable.'
If your daughter's "Christian" friends really believe that their gay classmates are in such a pathetic spiritual condition, then instead of shunning them shouldn't they be loving them following the example of Jesus.
I am not pontificating about homosexuality one way or the other but I remember reading just the other day that Jesus hung out with harlots, tax collectors, winebibbers (my kind of people)and sinners of every stripe. I never remember reading that he shunned or scorned any of them but he was disgusted, sickened and had plenty to say about hard, unloving, legalistic religious people. They might be reminded as the Pharisees were by Jesus, the harlots, sinners (and gays) enter the kingdom before you.
yes well I recall my first twig and we had almost every type of "social outcast" present of which you could conceive. (I might have even been one). Not all at once and not on a continual basis but we definitely had an open door policy that included acceptance of winos, junkies, thieves, convicts, prostitutes, witches, occultists, the chronically unemployed, and homosexuals. We didn't go out our way to find these people but in keeping with the general precept of christianity to spread the word we invited whomever and didn't get riled over their particular situation. Maybe because our twig was mixed in terms of ehtnicity there wasn't a single sense of
identity. If you didnt' like being around different people then you wouldn't have lasted long at our twig.
Later , after some teachings from visiting corps and such we learned about TWI's special interest/fear/obsession with homosexuality. Later it became a fetish for LCM and to put it any other way would be lying. He was consumed with the idea and made it an essential part of his "platform" of president of TWI. Though it sounds like a cheap shot I've always been suspect of guys who are incredibly vocal about their loathing of homosexuals as was LCM. In my experience and observation these are the types who are struggling with it internally. I'm being completely serious. I had a coach once who used to rage on and on about homosexuals yet he was later found to have been actively "cruising" for guys in a public park. and LAter when I heard LCM "teach" about "homos" I experienced a strong sense of deja vu.
Well anyway before LCM was on the scene there wasn't much differentiation between people at the local Twig level - at least in my twig. No one felt compelled to cast out demons and crap like that or run someone into the ground with the bible because you noticed they were effiminate or spoke with a lisp. No, Hatred of homosexuals had yet to become de rigeur so we simply did not care
what they did.
Any group that preaches hatred of anyone is not cool in my book. I would avoid them and would suggest to my children that they do the same. The social hsyteria that holds that if you have a gay friend then you are latently gay is so totally whacked that its unbelievable. Hatred is wrong and it doesn't do anything to attract people to what is presumably a great source of personal benefit (the bible and its message).
I know many people some of whom are gay and while I don't pretend to understand why they are "that way" it doesn't prevent me from cultivating friendships with them. A couple of these guys are surgeons and they save lives almost every time they operate and do you think it would matter one iota to one of their patients if they knew that their doctor was gay ? It certainly doesn't matter when the is the guy is saving a life. Of course its very easy to abstract homosexuals into some loathsome contingent within the population as if they were all
lisping hair dresser types, hanging out in bathrooms waiting on a hookup.
Not all christians "hate" homosexuals even though they might be uncomfortable around them and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure that many gay people are uncomfortable around christians also. But what kind of witness is it when someone makes automatic hatred of someone else a standard part of their personality and "message of love" ? Thats not a witness. That person is just using the bible as a medium upon which to piggy back their hatred of someone else.
I don't know where to even begin to respond to this thread.
First of all, I have to say that I know exactly how I personally feel about homosexuality in general, and the gay people I work with every day in specific.
My daughter attends a very large public high school. One of the largest in the country, in fact. There is no gay "agenda" there. She is involved in theatre, which happens to be the aboslute love of her life and her passion. She also attends the yourth services at our church. She is struggling because some of the other kids at church are hassling her about hanging out with her "theatre friends," who are not welcome to hang out with her "church friends." It just so happens that a few of her theatre friends are gay. A scenario that is not likely to change as she enters college.
Sheesh.....I'm just trying to help her resolve the problem she is facing. Her world, at school, is a microcosm of society at large, the way I see it. Since she is going to pursue her dramatic aspirations into college, I want to help her be the best she can be, in all catergoies of her life.
Seems like the bible does talk about being a friend to the friendless, and such things. Somehow I can't picture Jesus shunning gay teenagers, or chastizing someone for hanging out with them, which is kinda neccessary working on projects, etc.
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Shellon
I don't understand this statement. I have a gay brother and find it very difficult to discuss this issue because it seems to somehow make him differant, less, worse than, or whatever, than anyone else.
Of the many many things he's taught me, the most valuable is that he does not want me or my girls to fight about this with people.
It's a non issue, just as anyone else in our family. We don't discuss it to death, wonder about it, ask why/who/what/when/how questions; he's no differant than any of us in our family.
outofdafog, I don't know what it is you wish us to say in regards to your daughter. I, for one, have nothing to say. She's your child, as my children are my children. Then end.
I don't think she or you need validation, permission, recognition or any of the other attention getting things straight people are so uncomfortable with.
I don't introduce my brothers selectively "This is Ted, he's gay, this is Brian, he's an architect, this is Bill, he's a mechanic"
I don't understand, I guess.
Should her uncle's homosexuality be a topic of my daughter's share time during snack at school?
"We went to the beach, had lunch at Arf and Barf and stopped to see my gay uncle"
He's my brother, just like all of them.
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Mister P-Mosh
Please don't bring up the big bang, evolution, or any other scientific facts that are misconstrued all too often by both sides of the argument. A seperate thread would be ok but to add it to this one which is already debating about gays in such a way that won't really help ex10 is probably going to get worse. We should start another topic.
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outofdafog
Shellon:
This is a discussion forum and I put my 2 cents in. I just think it's funny how they spew all their righteous indignation out at gay people, but they don't know the reality of living it day to day. Why don't they ask that? It sounds so wonderful and flowery and godly when they spout their bible verses. You know darn well gays are discriminated against. And so if I take a stand and discuss it, it ultimately leads me to being a better mother and helping her along the way.
And no, I do not go around introducing my daughter as a gay teenager. Or telling everyone she is gay. You got me all wrong about the point I was trying to make.
But that is nothing new here on GS.......
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Galen
karmicdebt:
"Galen... an argument that deletes important facts sounds strong, but is weak to an experienced eye."
"Unless you are listed and recognized as providing "low-income", HUD, Section 8 or any program that allowed you tax benefits, construction loans, or lower interest rates committing yourself to such, you most certainly can deny any applicant based on income, ability to pay, credit reports and past rental history. CT to CA..."
At one time, we did rent to low-income people because we were in a 'Title' contract with the state.
We certainly can use credit ratings, and ability to pay.
However unless you are using that specific program you can not use income alone, it is listing among the Tenant-landlord laws of the state.
For our California place, we did it ourselves for a few years, then let the manager take care of it and did not really stick my nose into it.
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LG
How many heterosexuals decided, “I’m going to be heterosexual?” I didn’t. I didn’t give it any thought at all. I never decided that women are sexually attractive but men aren’t, yet that’s how it is for me. Why in the world should anyone be so presumptuous as to assume that someone else made such a decision, but in reverse?
Was I born heterosexual? Is my sexual orientation a mostly involuntary product of my environment? Is it some combination of the two? Am I even strictly heterosexual? I certainly am as far as practice is concerned, and I’m not attracted to men in any sort of sexual way, but could I be? Would I be in some circumstances? I honestly don’t know. Don’t really care either. As long as I weren’t hurting other people, what difference would it really make?
Suppose that homosexuality is purely by choice. What makes it so bad? Is it bad for two men or two women to voluntarily hold hands or kiss? Why? Is it bad for two men or two women to privately give each other pleasure in more intimate ways? Why? Just because someone else thinks it’s disgusting? Well, I think that eating raw fish is disgusting. Yet people do it, shamelessly, right out in public. Damn perverts!
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Galen
GarthP2000:
"When did the gays specifically ask to be given rights that no one else has?"
I assume that they were the ones who fought for protection as a seperate class, so your asnwer would be when THEY did it.
I can't imagine that the NRA decided "Lets go find some group and lobby for them to have more rights".
"And besides, what is it about renting to a gay person or couple that really takes your rights away, hmmm?"
You have not read everything previous in this thread?
"And this thing about 'seperating them to be a separate caste in our society' is hardly what the vast majority of gays/lesbians want."
I have no idea what they want.
"That's Yet More Propaganda from Focus on the Family machine."
Thats Pat Robertson isn't it? What is their stance? Do you follow them now?
"You know, and I know that this 'special rights' song-and-dance is just a straw man argument covering up for this 'gays are sinners and do not deserve equal rights' mentality. Hell, how many times has a Christian gotten special treatment one way or another, and you didn't raise this much of a fuss over it, hmmm?"
You can't give biased treatment over religion either.
If you think that you have been passed-over for a job due to religion, you have remedys available because again such is listed among the various things that you can not discriminate for.
I don't like anyone being listed, for special treatment, due to anything.
When their is a job opening, the employer should be able to fill the opening with anyone he wants to fill it with. In theory he should be able to pick whom he feels is the best qualified, but that is not the case. If he picks through favoratism, then fine, his company will not do nearly as well and he will suffer for it. But that should be his choice, if he is an employer.
"I know that mentality well; hell, I used to embrace it myself, so I know the game plan, chief"
I am not a chief, I am a First Class Petty Officer. I was once accused for presenting myself off as a chief, I was found innocent. However to allow someone else to thnk that you are a higher rank, is a federal crime under the UCMJ. Having been charged with this previously, I learned from the experience. In the previous case, someone addressed me as "Chief", and I did not immediately correct them. Which led to charges being filed against me.
:-)
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George Aar
Hey! Watch it!
Sushi yoku o tabimasu! Totemo oishi desu,yo!
(other than that you took the words right out of my mouth)
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Galen
outofdafog:
"I have seen this movie before here on GS. Nobody changes their opinions (and that is what they are because no one has any proof to validate their argument)."
Well this is a kind of open debate forum.
"Some of these answers give me flashbacks to STS in the auditorium with Loyboy spitting all over himself and others in his rage against homosexuality."
I apologize if I have made you to feel bad, or caused distress.
:-)
"All I know is that I have a gay daughter and I love her with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and would fight to my death for her. My child is no different than yours, she gets all A's and B's, works part-time after school, has lots of friends, goes to parties, shops for clothes, chats on the phone, internet and listens to her MP3 player."
I am sure that you do love her, as we should all love our children. She sounds like a fairly average kid.
"According to some of you posters, she has demons, or I sinned in a previous life or some other crap like that."
I have no idea why one person is homosexual and another is not. It does seem to be far more often of late though, I dont think that there would ever really be any method of tracking such, as previously society did not approve and as such even if someone had tendencies leaning toward homosexuality they were under far more pressure to hide that part of themselves. So any statistics would likely be suspect.
I did not mean to imply that you had sinned in some way which caused your daugher to be so. I do realise that the Bible does mention how the sins of the father are carried over to the son. I understand this in the context that when we walk in sinful habits ourselves then our children learn to walk in the same way.
My father has terrible impulse control when it comes to controlling his temper. But around adults he manages to control himself, when he is around children or pets is when he lashes out. But as he told me many times, when you train a child or an animal you beat them and eventually they will figure out what you want them to do, so just keep on beating them. There are others who would say that you can train using 'love' but that takes more time and effort. It is easier to beat things, and hurts less if you use whips or rods then if you used your own hands and feet.
Now in my life, I have 'fought' that lack of impulse control, and I have fought against my bio-father's teachings. So I do know that to some degree what a parent does gets carried over to children, but it can also be controlled.
In the case of Homosexuality, I dont think that it absolutely must be spiritual. I do think that in our society today being surrounded by others who say they are such, or seeing it on TV everyday, etc. Would certainly make it easier for anyone with a pre-disposition towards that, to more openly go there.
"I notice that since I posted about my child, not one person has really directed their comments at me."
Again I apologize.
"... They preach their little sermons all around and sound so self righteous. If you ain't gotta live it, then don't worry about it. She's not gonna pollute your little self-righteous gene pool, nor would I ever let her go to church with you."
I did not intend to be preaching at you, sorry.
I know that I was a sinner, and that 'Grace' has been my only hope of 'Righteousness'. If I sounded like it was from myself, then I am sorry. I think that we all need the Love and Grace of our Heavenly Father.
Obviously I do feel that if your healing has progressed enough, then you should search out some church, or some group of beleivers somewhere, to assist you and to offer you their support directly.
"Whoa to you scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites! My bible teaches that the "law of love" now supersedes the law. Oh I am sorry except for homosexuals, God really didn't mean that when it comes to them. Shame on you!"
:-)
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Shellon
That was not the point I thought you were trying to make.
You missed my point, as well, apparently.
We are not communicating, unfortunately.
I guess my point is that there need not be a point. Society says there must be.
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outofdafog
I only injected my child's personal life into this post because the original question in the thread was about gay teen-agers. As the mother of one, I guess I felt I might have a little insight into it on a practical level. Especially when it comes to school and such (she is a freshman in high school).
The thread went on to gain the momentum of a raging theological debate. I guess I just wanted to inject the fact that these children are real humans with the same emotions, wants, likes, dislikes, fear of failure, fear of rejection, self-doubt, roller coaster hormones and feelings. Have I sorted out where or how she bacame gay? Not really. Sometimes I think that it is the same as a birth defect (oh my God I know that makes me sound like a bad mom) but truly, if she had been born with a cleft lip or deformed hand, I wouldn't nor couldn't love her any less than I do now.
I don't know all the answers, just that we all need and desire love and acceptance and that is the best I can teach her.
Peace Shellon - you are a cool lady.
Galen - you're ok for a navy guy hehe
:)-->
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WhiteDove
Mr. P Mosh
I agree! but it was not me who brought it up. You seemed to miss the fact that I did not bring it up My post was a responce to Page 2 Longgones attempt to bash christions because we don't buy the theories yes (theories look it up in a webster)anti God that are espoused in science class Theories are Theories and equal time should be given to all or none.
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LG
I joked about Fundamentalism, not Christianity. Evan responded about not seeking special treatment. I cited an example of some Fundamentalists seeking special treatment. That's all there was to it.
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LG
I guess I’d better make this clear. I’m not a fundi-phobe. The Fundamentalists I know are every bit as decent, loving, and law-abiding as anyone else. I have no problem with them being open about their Fundamentalism, as long as they’re not “in your face” about it. I wouldn’t choose that lifestyle, but I don’t feel threatened by others who do. I also have no problem with people engaging in consensual Fundamentalist acts. I figure that what consenting adults do in private is none of my business. I do think that public displays of Fundamentalism can sometimes be unseemly, but that’s a matter of courtesy, rather than a problem with Fundamentalism itself.
Fundamentalists should not be shunned, denigrated, or denied equal protection of the laws and decent treatment in society.
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CM
I never understood what that is anyway!
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Galen
Long Gone:
" ... The Fundamentalists I know are every bit as decent, loving, and law-abiding as anyone else. I have no problem with them being open about their Fundamentalism, as long as they’re not “in your face” about it. I wouldn’t choose that lifestyle, but I don’t feel threatened by others who do. I also have no problem with people engaging in consensual Fundamentalist acts. I figure that what consenting adults do in private is none of my business. I do think that public displays of Fundamentalism can sometimes be unseemly, but that’s a matter of courtesy, rather than a problem with Fundamentalism itself. Fundamentalists should not be shunned, denigrated, or denied equal protection of the laws and decent treatment in society."
I admit that I am a 'fundy'.
I am not real evangelical about it though.
To the degree that fundys can fit in with the rest of society, I think that they should get equal treatment along with all other citizens, but I do not think that they should be a sepearate class sepearately guaranteed any rights.
:-)
I have heard that Fundys can seek treatment.
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Shellon
Fundy
I can't help but see fundus in that word.
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ChasUFarley
Ex10 --
It seems we're on page three now of this thread and there's a plythora of answers, opinions and debates...
From your initial post it seems like your daughter's school is a christian school, correct? (i.e. the comment about how all the Christian kids shun the gays.)
I don't mean to offend here, but I remember knowing who was "out" in my school because they talked about it. They were more than open - they got into 'details'. Sorry, but hetro or homo - that's just TMI (too much information)! My husband, who is a public high school teacher, has told me about students he has had who have done similar things.
Are the homosexual teens shunned, perhaps, for reasons other than just being homosexual?
Also, in answer to your question about explaining this all to your daughter, I think you would need to base it on the point of view and/or beliefs that the "Christian" kids are coming from. I'm sure there's some teaching on the subject in her school/church that you could base this on....
However, the reason WHY there are homosexuals is a theological, biological or other-ogical thing for you to explain, as you see fit, to your daughter. This is a diverse forum and I can only hope that the posters here will "play nice with others" on this subject... but you're going to get every answer under the sun here...
Best of luck! (I mean that sincerely... )
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ChasUFarley
Shell --
Fundamental =
Fun...
...for...
......mentals!
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Cindy!
I just read this in my nea magazine (that's a magazine for teachers). In response to a previous article on gays in education, it said:
'Your April article "Teaching Tolerance" was obscene. Tolerance means willfully enduring something unpleasant. Teachers should not "tolerate" gay students any more than they should "tolerate" African-American students. Tolerance is not what gay students need; respect and dignity are. Nothing else is acceptable.'
Amen.
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oenophile
I have had several gay friends that I have asked the following question.
"Do you recall a time that you made the conscious decision to become a homosexual?"
I have yet to hear anyone answer in the affirmative.
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oenophile
Ex10,
If your daughter's "Christian" friends really believe that their gay classmates are in such a pathetic spiritual condition, then instead of shunning them shouldn't they be loving them following the example of Jesus.
I am not pontificating about homosexuality one way or the other but I remember reading just the other day that Jesus hung out with harlots, tax collectors, winebibbers (my kind of people)and sinners of every stripe. I never remember reading that he shunned or scorned any of them but he was disgusted, sickened and had plenty to say about hard, unloving, legalistic religious people. They might be reminded as the Pharisees were by Jesus, the harlots, sinners (and gays) enter the kingdom before you.
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diazbro
yes well I recall my first twig and we had almost every type of "social outcast" present of which you could conceive. (I might have even been one). Not all at once and not on a continual basis but we definitely had an open door policy that included acceptance of winos, junkies, thieves, convicts, prostitutes, witches, occultists, the chronically unemployed, and homosexuals. We didn't go out our way to find these people but in keeping with the general precept of christianity to spread the word we invited whomever and didn't get riled over their particular situation. Maybe because our twig was mixed in terms of ehtnicity there wasn't a single sense of
identity. If you didnt' like being around different people then you wouldn't have lasted long at our twig.
Later , after some teachings from visiting corps and such we learned about TWI's special interest/fear/obsession with homosexuality. Later it became a fetish for LCM and to put it any other way would be lying. He was consumed with the idea and made it an essential part of his "platform" of president of TWI. Though it sounds like a cheap shot I've always been suspect of guys who are incredibly vocal about their loathing of homosexuals as was LCM. In my experience and observation these are the types who are struggling with it internally. I'm being completely serious. I had a coach once who used to rage on and on about homosexuals yet he was later found to have been actively "cruising" for guys in a public park. and LAter when I heard LCM "teach" about "homos" I experienced a strong sense of deja vu.
Well anyway before LCM was on the scene there wasn't much differentiation between people at the local Twig level - at least in my twig. No one felt compelled to cast out demons and crap like that or run someone into the ground with the bible because you noticed they were effiminate or spoke with a lisp. No, Hatred of homosexuals had yet to become de rigeur so we simply did not care
what they did.
Any group that preaches hatred of anyone is not cool in my book. I would avoid them and would suggest to my children that they do the same. The social hsyteria that holds that if you have a gay friend then you are latently gay is so totally whacked that its unbelievable. Hatred is wrong and it doesn't do anything to attract people to what is presumably a great source of personal benefit (the bible and its message).
I know many people some of whom are gay and while I don't pretend to understand why they are "that way" it doesn't prevent me from cultivating friendships with them. A couple of these guys are surgeons and they save lives almost every time they operate and do you think it would matter one iota to one of their patients if they knew that their doctor was gay ? It certainly doesn't matter when the is the guy is saving a life. Of course its very easy to abstract homosexuals into some loathsome contingent within the population as if they were all
lisping hair dresser types, hanging out in bathrooms waiting on a hookup.
Not all christians "hate" homosexuals even though they might be uncomfortable around them and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure that many gay people are uncomfortable around christians also. But what kind of witness is it when someone makes automatic hatred of someone else a standard part of their personality and "message of love" ? Thats not a witness. That person is just using the bible as a medium upon which to piggy back their hatred of someone else.
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ex10
aye, chihuahua....
I don't know where to even begin to respond to this thread.
First of all, I have to say that I know exactly how I personally feel about homosexuality in general, and the gay people I work with every day in specific.
My daughter attends a very large public high school. One of the largest in the country, in fact. There is no gay "agenda" there. She is involved in theatre, which happens to be the aboslute love of her life and her passion. She also attends the yourth services at our church. She is struggling because some of the other kids at church are hassling her about hanging out with her "theatre friends," who are not welcome to hang out with her "church friends." It just so happens that a few of her theatre friends are gay. A scenario that is not likely to change as she enters college.
Sheesh.....I'm just trying to help her resolve the problem she is facing. Her world, at school, is a microcosm of society at large, the way I see it. Since she is going to pursue her dramatic aspirations into college, I want to help her be the best she can be, in all catergoies of her life.
Seems like the bible does talk about being a friend to the friendless, and such things. Somehow I can't picture Jesus shunning gay teenagers, or chastizing someone for hanging out with them, which is kinda neccessary working on projects, etc.
Oi vey.......
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LG
Ok, now that you've got that said, ex, can we continue discussing fundamentalists? My favorite was Carnac the Magnificent.
Oh, wait. He was a funny mentalist.
Never mind.
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