ex10, that's why I posted what I did. If she understands why people (not Christians, but people in general) discriminate, she can put it in the context of human nature.
When we demystify human behavior (taking "free will" out of the equation), we can be a lot more tolerant.
Whilst it was indeed an experience of my younger days (sigh) it is a continued experience also now.
Major groupings continue to fulminate and to oppose any progress or more modern understandings.
The validity of gay relationships still continues to be denied by the vast bulk of hierarchies even where their memberships are often more understanding or at least prepared to be tolerant of the rights of others.
It is almost miraculous that there are gay people out there who have managed to reconcile their sexuality with faith.
Cute, Long Gone. But nobody is claiming special treatment because they are genetically fundamentalist 'n "jes' can't he'p it".
Gay activists are.
Which is beside the point of this thread. Tis true that the term "gay" has become, among teenagers, a pejorative term for anything uncool, distasteful, etc. Teenage group dynamics already have enough cruelty as it is without adding another thing. I have no problem classifying homosexual acts as sin but I have a problem with treating homosexuals badly. I have a problem with treating anybody badly. Justice, rewards & punishment are God's business, not mine.
I wouldn't call it a miracle. I'd call it something else ....
:(-->
Tell me something Evan, why is it that equal treatment in society and under the law qualifies as 'special treatment'? Or treating someone as tho' there is something morally wrong with them because of their sexuality qualifies as equal treatment in the same context?
Cute, Long Gone. But nobody is claiming special treatment because they are genetically fundamentalist 'n "jes' can't he'p it".
No, but some are claiming rights to special treatment in schools of their fundamentalist choices. They think their religious beliefs should be taught in science classes and that science contrary to their beliefs should carry a disclaimer, if taught at all. That's not equal rights. That's special treatment!
"Tell me something Evan, why is it that equal treatment in society and under the law qualifies as 'special treatment'? Or treating someone as tho' there is something morally wrong with them because of their sexuality qualifies as equal treatment in the same context?"
Anytime a law is made that sets a group of people apart and seperately guarantees that group with rights, then ther are getting 'Special Treatment'.
I am a landlord. I can not discriminate based upon sexual preference. That is the law here in Connecticut. So as a group, homosexuals are 'protected', they are given a level of protection that non-group members do not enjoy.
It is easy to say that we should never discriminate. Wonderful, but here on planet Earth, we must.
I was once refused a lease for an apartment until I supplied a marriage license for Bonnie and I, in that state they could discriminate against un-married couples co-habitating and they did.
Here in 2005 in Connecticut I can not discriminate against un-married couples co-habitating. Why? Because they are a protected caste of people. They get 'special treatment'.
You can say that I should never discriminate, fine.
Here I have one empty apartment, but lo, I have a stack of 20 applications. If you turn down anyone who is black, you better have a documented written reason for it, or else you can be sued. If you turn down an un-married couple, you better have some documented reason and that reason better not say anything about their marital status. Wait this guy has hazel eyes! One couple clearly makes more money than the other applicants, but no you can not discriminate based upon income levels. Why? you may ask, because as is this topic they are a protected caste of people, poor people get 'special treatment'.
But please go ahead tell me on what basis are you going to determine which applicant will be allowed to sign a lease.
Hmm, a Catholic church nearby, so select someone who is catholic since they would possibly attend the neighborhood church and stay in my apartment longer? No. Can not discriminte based upon religion. And remember that with: Blacks, indians, homosexuals, un-married couples, and poor people in that stack, you will need some documented reason for how you determined your choice.
We MUST discriminate on some basis. Even if you say "first come, first served", you are discriminating based on timeliness.
In this day, you need to have your explanation ready each time you tell someone that someone else has signed the lease.
Cheers fellow landlord. I hear you from whence you come. Prior to having this conventional complex, I had 179 HUD units. Man all I can say is, keep good records.
We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.......
Anytime a law is made that sets a group of people apart and seperately guarantees that group with rights, then ther are getting 'Special Treatment'.
Uhhmm, so when laws were passed giving blacks and women the right to vote in 1865 and 1920 respectively, are we setting up laws that give blacks and women 'Special Treatment'? When laws were passed that gave non-land owners the right to vote back in the late 1700s-early 1800s, were they getting 'Special Treatment'? No Galen, they are getting rights that other people already have. Same thing that goes for gays too, and why folks like you want to whine about 'Special Treatment' and act as tho' our country is headed for the toilet because of that is beyond me. ... All of which basically serves as a straw man argument that covers for the REAL fear driven complaint that "Gays are breaking God's Law, and we must do something about it!".
You know it's interesting. Quite a number of 'God's Laws' are being broken by the more (((cough))) 'godly' people, yet the homophobe crowd doesn't seem to go ape.... over those. No, its basically this rabid fear about 'homosexuality is going to bring the entire Western civilization down in flames' and like arguments that keeps getting a bunch of fundies panties in a knot. Well believe me, there are far worse things than a homosexual couple making out in public to be 'righteously concerned' about.
Crap like this, for instance: "It is easy to say that we should never discriminate. Wonderful, but here on planet Earth, we must."
Oh really? Is this and the 'logic' that follows that the arguments that justify getting bent out of shape about homosexuality? You must discriminate? (In your apartment renting example) Even if they have the $$$$ to rent it with, and they don't trash the place?
In one place of your post about renting, you say that homosexuals have rights that 'non-members' of that group don't enjoy. Yet a few sentences down there are others who enjoy that same right. ... So which is it guy? Can't have it both ways.
Your arguments are weak. Very weak. And like I said before, what is it about homosexuals NOT being treated 'like sinners' that pi**es you folks off so much? God, just leave them alone if you can't do anything else.
I'm amazed now that I used to believe much the same way against homosexuals, .... and it was based on *nothing* more than stupid, ignorant fear, and whitewashed up in the Name of God.
Now doesn't that motivation sound familiar, hmmmm?
Cute, Long Gone. But nobody is claiming special treatment because they are genetically fundamentalist 'n "jes' can't he'p it".
No, but some are claiming rights to special treatment in schools of their fundamentalist choices. They think their religious beliefs should be taught in science classes and that science contrary to their beliefs should carry a disclaimer, if taught at all. That's not equal rights. That's special treatment!
Fair enough when science teachers quit teaching abstract theories as scientific truth. If your going to teach assunptions which by defenition is what theories are then it would be only fair to let everyone assume! That is equal treatment!.
There is a big difference between 1) a theory (a tentative conclusion based on the preponderance of the where the evidence points to), and 2) a theory (determinations based on nothing more than on presumptive and predetermined beliefs of the authority of the bible, and whatever evidence scrounged up to back it up; all else being discarded)
The theory of evolution is based on the first definition, particularly with the increasing and verified related information coming on an almost daily basis. ... Want to give an 'educated' guess as to which one creationism is based on?
Anytime a law is made that sets a group of people apart and seperately guarantees that group with rights, then ther are getting 'Special Treatment'.
"Uhhmm, so when laws were passed giving blacks and women the right to vote in 1865 and 1920 respectively, are we setting up laws that give blacks and women 'Special Treatment'?"
Laws giving women and blacks the 'SAME' rights as others did NOT set them apart into a seperate caste in our society.
Laws that SAY that they are a separate class and as such need to be protected do.
The right to vote does not give a black more rights then anyone else, it is the seperate laws which state that you can not discriminate against a black that gives them special rights above and beyond all others. Given a group of un-described people that you must pick one for promotion, or to rent an apartment or anything else. That is fair, but make one black [or any special class] and suddenly everything is stacked against everyone else. a group of white men can be passed over without any need to prove and document why they were passed over. Pass over any one of the special castes and does it still work that way?
This has gone really far off topic now. I'd be happy to discuss it on another thread, if you wish. First, I suggest that you get at least a basic understanding of some terms. Here's a good starting place..
Speaking of being a jerk, go over what you posted previous to your last post, and you'll see what 'being a jerk' is all about.
When did the gays specifically ask to be given rights that no one else has? Oh, and I don't mean remedial legal actions that correct previous discrimination against them either. And besides, what is it about renting to a gay person or couple that really takes your rights away, hmmm? And this thing about 'seperating them to be a separate caste in our society' is hardly what the vast majority of gays/lesbians want. That's Yet More Propaganda from Focus on the Family machine.
You know, and I know that this 'special rights' song-and-dance is just a straw man argument covering up for this 'gays are sinners and do not deserve equal rights' mentality. Hell, how many times has a Christian gotten special treatment one way or another, and you didn't raise this much of a fuss over it, hmmm?
I know that mentality well; hell, I used to embrace it myself, so I know the game plan, chief.
Galen... an argument that deletes important facts sounds strong, but is weak to an experienced eye.
Unless you are listed and recognized as providing "low-income", HUD, Section 8 or any program that allowed you tax benefits, construction loans, or lower interest rates committing yourself to such, you most certainly can deny any applicant based on income, ability to pay, credit reports and past rental history. CT to CA...
and it is not special treatment if it is a standard treatment for others. It is equal under the law...Equal treatment. People with pets are not protected, some buildings can decline people with water beds...I am sure you can whittle your list down not even looking at color or marital status or with whom they are having sex.
Ex10, My kids and I try to understand our own beliefs by starting with a question and then question the response and question that response and continue to question until there is nothing left but..."well, that is what I always believed"... then the only questions left are "Is it true, is it just?...Not the question, but the response that reveals what is in our heart...
I'm really, really sorry that so many people die of starvation whilst I have the privilege of choosing what delicious take-out food tonite.I'm really, really sorry that people are massacered while I can lay in my bed safely tonite and listen to the rain on my roof.
I'm really, really sorry that some people will go to bed alone tonite whilst I can snuggle into my beautiful, soft, feminine, sweet smelling, God loving (mother of six) wife.
I thank my God for engineering my existence.
If I were to die in a terrorist attack tomorrow I would not have any regrets for what I have had, even if there was no eternity to look forward to.But I believe that the best is yet to come !!
as a footnote..I'm glad my wife doesn't have a hairy chest!!!!
quote: She says, if God is love, then why would he make some people homosexual, and then totally lock them out of any kind of Christian spirituality?
The dilemma with these gay threads is that neither side can prove their position. Gays believe they are born that way and thus not perverted; Christians believe the opposite, so every time there's a thread the same basic arguments will ensue with no possibility of agreement. Ex10, you need to make up your mind. ARE homos born that way, or are they NOT? How's your daughter going to get any answers if you don't have any?
I have seen this movie before here on GS. Nobody changes their opinions (and that is what they are because no one has any proof to validate their argument).
Some of these answers give me flashbacks to STS in the auditorium with Loyboy spitting all over himself and others in his rage against homosexuality.
All I know is that I have a gay daughter and I love her with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and would fight to my death for her. My child is no different than yours, she gets all A's and B's, works part-time after school, has lots of friends, goes to parties, shops for clothes, chats on the phone, internet and listens to her MP3 player.
According to some of you posters, she has demons, or I sinned in a previous life or some other crap like that. I notice that since I posted about my child, not one person has really directed their comments at me. They preach their little sermons all around and sound so self righteous. If you ain't gotta live it, then don't worry about it. She's not gonna pollute your little self-righteous gene pool, nor would I ever let her go to church with you.
Whoa to you scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites! My bible teaches that the "law of love" now supersedes the law. Oh I am sorry except for homosexuals, God really didn't mean that when it comes to them. Shame on you!
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satori001
ex10, that's why I posted what I did. If she understands why people (not Christians, but people in general) discriminate, she can put it in the context of human nature.
When we demystify human behavior (taking "free will" out of the equation), we can be a lot more tolerant.
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outofdafog
Long Gone
:D-->
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outofdafog
Satori001 - You do write man a wise thing.....
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outofdafog
Excuse me...you write many a wise thing....
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Trefor Heywood
Galen:
Whilst it was indeed an experience of my younger days (sigh) it is a continued experience also now.
Major groupings continue to fulminate and to oppose any progress or more modern understandings.
The validity of gay relationships still continues to be denied by the vast bulk of hierarchies even where their memberships are often more understanding or at least prepared to be tolerant of the rights of others.
It is almost miraculous that there are gay people out there who have managed to reconcile their sexuality with faith.
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TheEvan
Cute, Long Gone. But nobody is claiming special treatment because they are genetically fundamentalist 'n "jes' can't he'p it".
Gay activists are.
Which is beside the point of this thread. Tis true that the term "gay" has become, among teenagers, a pejorative term for anything uncool, distasteful, etc. Teenage group dynamics already have enough cruelty as it is without adding another thing. I have no problem classifying homosexual acts as sin but I have a problem with treating homosexuals badly. I have a problem with treating anybody badly. Justice, rewards & punishment are God's business, not mine.
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GarthP2000
Trefor,
I wouldn't call it a miracle. I'd call it something else ....
Tell me something Evan, why is it that equal treatment in society and under the law qualifies as 'special treatment'? Or treating someone as tho' there is something morally wrong with them because of their sexuality qualifies as equal treatment in the same context?
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LG
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Galen
GarthP2000:
"Tell me something Evan, why is it that equal treatment in society and under the law qualifies as 'special treatment'? Or treating someone as tho' there is something morally wrong with them because of their sexuality qualifies as equal treatment in the same context?"
Anytime a law is made that sets a group of people apart and seperately guarantees that group with rights, then ther are getting 'Special Treatment'.
I am a landlord. I can not discriminate based upon sexual preference. That is the law here in Connecticut. So as a group, homosexuals are 'protected', they are given a level of protection that non-group members do not enjoy.
It is easy to say that we should never discriminate. Wonderful, but here on planet Earth, we must.
I was once refused a lease for an apartment until I supplied a marriage license for Bonnie and I, in that state they could discriminate against un-married couples co-habitating and they did.
Here in 2005 in Connecticut I can not discriminate against un-married couples co-habitating. Why? Because they are a protected caste of people. They get 'special treatment'.
You can say that I should never discriminate, fine.
Here I have one empty apartment, but lo, I have a stack of 20 applications. If you turn down anyone who is black, you better have a documented written reason for it, or else you can be sued. If you turn down an un-married couple, you better have some documented reason and that reason better not say anything about their marital status. Wait this guy has hazel eyes! One couple clearly makes more money than the other applicants, but no you can not discriminate based upon income levels. Why? you may ask, because as is this topic they are a protected caste of people, poor people get 'special treatment'.
But please go ahead tell me on what basis are you going to determine which applicant will be allowed to sign a lease.
Hmm, a Catholic church nearby, so select someone who is catholic since they would possibly attend the neighborhood church and stay in my apartment longer? No. Can not discriminte based upon religion. And remember that with: Blacks, indians, homosexuals, un-married couples, and poor people in that stack, you will need some documented reason for how you determined your choice.
We MUST discriminate on some basis. Even if you say "first come, first served", you are discriminating based on timeliness.
In this day, you need to have your explanation ready each time you tell someone that someone else has signed the lease.
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outofdafog
Galen:
Cheers fellow landlord. I hear you from whence you come. Prior to having this conventional complex, I had 179 HUD units.
Man all I can say is, keep good records.
We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.......
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J0nny Ling0
Ex 10,
Did you ever consider my post?
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GarthP2000
Galen,
Uhhmm, so when laws were passed giving blacks and women the right to vote in 1865 and 1920 respectively, are we setting up laws that give blacks and women 'Special Treatment'? When laws were passed that gave non-land owners the right to vote back in the late 1700s-early 1800s, were they getting 'Special Treatment'? No Galen, they are getting rights that other people already have. Same thing that goes for gays too, and why folks like you want to whine about 'Special Treatment' and act as tho' our country is headed for the toilet because of that is beyond me. ... All of which basically serves as a straw man argument that covers for the REAL fear driven complaint that "Gays are breaking God's Law, and we must do something about it!".
You know it's interesting. Quite a number of 'God's Laws' are being broken by the more (((cough))) 'godly' people, yet the homophobe crowd doesn't seem to go ape.... over those. No, its basically this rabid fear about 'homosexuality is going to bring the entire Western civilization down in flames' and like arguments that keeps getting a bunch of fundies panties in a knot. Well believe me, there are far worse things than a homosexual couple making out in public to be 'righteously concerned' about.
Crap like this, for instance: "It is easy to say that we should never discriminate. Wonderful, but here on planet Earth, we must."
Oh really? Is this and the 'logic' that follows that the arguments that justify getting bent out of shape about homosexuality? You must discriminate? (In your apartment renting example) Even if they have the $$$$ to rent it with, and they don't trash the place?
In one place of your post about renting, you say that homosexuals have rights that 'non-members' of that group don't enjoy. Yet a few sentences down there are others who enjoy that same right. ... So which is it guy? Can't have it both ways.
Your arguments are weak. Very weak. And like I said before, what is it about homosexuals NOT being treated 'like sinners' that pi**es you folks off so much? God, just leave them alone if you can't do anything else.
I'm amazed now that I used to believe much the same way against homosexuals, .... and it was based on *nothing* more than stupid, ignorant fear, and whitewashed up in the Name of God.
Now doesn't that motivation sound familiar, hmmmm?
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WhiteDove
Fair enough when science teachers quit teaching abstract theories as scientific truth. If your going to teach assunptions which by defenition is what theories are then it would be only fair to let everyone assume! That is equal treatment!.
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GarthP2000
There is a big difference between 1) a theory (a tentative conclusion based on the preponderance of the where the evidence points to), and 2) a theory (determinations based on nothing more than on presumptive and predetermined beliefs of the authority of the bible, and whatever evidence scrounged up to back it up; all else being discarded)
The theory of evolution is based on the first definition, particularly with the increasing and verified related information coming on an almost daily basis. ... Want to give an 'educated' guess as to which one creationism is based on?
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WhiteDove
Yeah right! says you.
The chances of the world being banged together is about the same as a tornado assembling a 747 while blowing through a Boing parts hanger.
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Galen
GarthP2000:
"Uhhmm, so when laws were passed giving blacks and women the right to vote in 1865 and 1920 respectively, are we setting up laws that give blacks and women 'Special Treatment'?"
Laws giving women and blacks the 'SAME' rights as others did NOT set them apart into a seperate caste in our society.
Laws that SAY that they are a separate class and as such need to be protected do.
The right to vote does not give a black more rights then anyone else, it is the seperate laws which state that you can not discriminate against a black that gives them special rights above and beyond all others. Given a group of un-described people that you must pick one for promotion, or to rent an apartment or anything else. That is fair, but make one black [or any special class] and suddenly everything is stacked against everyone else. a group of white men can be passed over without any need to prove and document why they were passed over. Pass over any one of the special castes and does it still work that way?
Obviously you know this,
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LG
White Dove,
This has gone really far off topic now. I'd be happy to discuss it on another thread, if you wish. First, I suggest that you get at least a basic understanding of some terms. Here's a good starting place..
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GarthP2000
Galen,
Speaking of being a jerk, go over what you posted previous to your last post, and you'll see what 'being a jerk' is all about.
When did the gays specifically ask to be given rights that no one else has? Oh, and I don't mean remedial legal actions that correct previous discrimination against them either. And besides, what is it about renting to a gay person or couple that really takes your rights away, hmmm? And this thing about 'seperating them to be a separate caste in our society' is hardly what the vast majority of gays/lesbians want. That's Yet More Propaganda from Focus on the Family machine.
You know, and I know that this 'special rights' song-and-dance is just a straw man argument covering up for this 'gays are sinners and do not deserve equal rights' mentality. Hell, how many times has a Christian gotten special treatment one way or another, and you didn't raise this much of a fuss over it, hmmm?
I know that mentality well; hell, I used to embrace it myself, so I know the game plan, chief.
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satori001
Fundamentalists do claim special "rites" - school prayer, for one. I believe they jes' can't he'p it either.
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satori001
What was the question?
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karmicdebt
Galen... an argument that deletes important facts sounds strong, but is weak to an experienced eye.
Unless you are listed and recognized as providing "low-income", HUD, Section 8 or any program that allowed you tax benefits, construction loans, or lower interest rates committing yourself to such, you most certainly can deny any applicant based on income, ability to pay, credit reports and past rental history. CT to CA...
and it is not special treatment if it is a standard treatment for others. It is equal under the law...Equal treatment. People with pets are not protected, some buildings can decline people with water beds...I am sure you can whittle your list down not even looking at color or marital status or with whom they are having sex.
Ex10, My kids and I try to understand our own beliefs by starting with a question and then question the response and question that response and continue to question until there is nothing left but..."well, that is what I always believed"... then the only questions left are "Is it true, is it just?...Not the question, but the response that reveals what is in our heart...
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Allan
I'm really, really sorry that so many people die of starvation whilst I have the privilege of choosing what delicious take-out food tonite.I'm really, really sorry that people are massacered while I can lay in my bed safely tonite and listen to the rain on my roof.
I'm really, really sorry that some people will go to bed alone tonite whilst I can snuggle into my beautiful, soft, feminine, sweet smelling, God loving (mother of six) wife.
I thank my God for engineering my existence.
If I were to die in a terrorist attack tomorrow I would not have any regrets for what I have had, even if there was no eternity to look forward to.But I believe that the best is yet to come !!
as a footnote..I'm glad my wife doesn't have a hairy chest!!!!
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johniam
quote: She says, if God is love, then why would he make some people homosexual, and then totally lock them out of any kind of Christian spirituality?
The dilemma with these gay threads is that neither side can prove their position. Gays believe they are born that way and thus not perverted; Christians believe the opposite, so every time there's a thread the same basic arguments will ensue with no possibility of agreement. Ex10, you need to make up your mind. ARE homos born that way, or are they NOT? How's your daughter going to get any answers if you don't have any?
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outofdafog
johniam, I agree,
I have seen this movie before here on GS. Nobody changes their opinions (and that is what they are because no one has any proof to validate their argument).
Some of these answers give me flashbacks to STS in the auditorium with Loyboy spitting all over himself and others in his rage against homosexuality.
All I know is that I have a gay daughter and I love her with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and would fight to my death for her. My child is no different than yours, she gets all A's and B's, works part-time after school, has lots of friends, goes to parties, shops for clothes, chats on the phone, internet and listens to her MP3 player.
According to some of you posters, she has demons, or I sinned in a previous life or some other crap like that. I notice that since I posted about my child, not one person has really directed their comments at me. They preach their little sermons all around and sound so self righteous. If you ain't gotta live it, then don't worry about it. She's not gonna pollute your little self-righteous gene pool, nor would I ever let her go to church with you.
Whoa to you scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites! My bible teaches that the "law of love" now supersedes the law. Oh I am sorry except for homosexuals, God really didn't mean that when it comes to them. Shame on you!
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