The anti-gay concept that I find most hilarious (and even bordering on insane) is how homosexuality is supposedly a threat (immediate or ultimate) to: 1) marriage, 2) family, 3) the entire Western civilization, and 4) G rated movies.
Amazing how much crap someone can extrapolate from that one account of Sodom and Gommorah in the Bible.
Yea like the pro-creation argument. Like we need more people in the world. I don't know about you but I thought the whole idea of Adam and Eve was to go forth and produce, because God had foreknowledge of the christ child being born. Well if Christ has been born as the Christian church proclaims, died and arose, why continue to pro-create? Why continue to blame the homosexual for not being able to reproduce.
As I said before, adultery and divorce seem to me to be destroying the family more than anything else.
Speaking of overpopulation, all them people starving in the desert, why don't we take all that money that we raise to feed them, and MOVE THEM to where they can plant food and feed themselves??
One of the greater inconsistencies of TWI was in its characterization of those who were "homos" as being particularly worthy of scorn because they were "possessed". However there were many,many, ( I mean alot of ) alcoholics in TWI - so many so that it was "winked at" yet by Way teaching alcoholism was caused by the "Leviathan" spirit. But somehow being a drunk (and consequently possessed) wasn't so bad since there were so many of thoses types around. "hey . you got mad at your wife and maybe hit her ? So what. you can get back in fellowship". Thats TOTAL BS yet I heard stuff like that.
Alcoholics and their corresponding behavior have done more to wreck lives, families, business, and mental health than any gay person of which I know. I guess Liberace was an abomination in the eyes of God yet the typical boozer was cool ?. Sure. Its cool for liquor heads to fight, lose jobs on a continual basis,
disappoint their children but for someone to be gay is worse ? Different standard. Guess having an alky devil spirit is cool with God ? Sure. Its being a "good ole boy" huh ? I know Way devotees who have lost their jobs, families, and their productive years to booze yet they think that because they weren't gay that god is somehow more respectful of them ? Get real....
Excathedra, are you a New Yorker? I hadda bunch of friends in The Way from there. George C*mella, Tony Cr*sera, Linus Math*s, Cathy McEv*y, Kathy M*cIntyre, Todd Byrn*s, Ir*s Tate, Carol Sap*o, Glen and Louise Abr*mson, Vinnie Rocc*salvo, to name a few...
Those New Yorkers have always been a funny bunch to me. So many of them were so sarcastic to me in the Corps that I thought that they hated me. But really, it was "just them" and their "dryness" or whatever it is called. I finally got used to it and liked it...
...Hey you got mad at your wife and maybe hit her? So what.....
This is not only a precept of TWI but of other churches also. During some "down time" during my involvement in TWI I attended a home town church for about 6 months. During that time I met and married a man.......just a few months later we got into an argument and he threw a pop bottle at me. I was shocked, and went to the pastor of the church (he had counseled us before marriage) and told him what happened. Unbelieveably, he took my husband's side and told me that I wasn't being a submissive wife.....PUKE..PUKE...PUKE Worse, his wife agreed........
These are the people that think they have the right to judge others? This does border on insanity..........
I knew as soon as I wrote that somebody was going to take a cheap shot. No Garth; innocent until proven impossible to get along with. There are very few people in that category as I am able to get along with most people; hetero and homo, Democrat and Republican, Liberal and Conservative, black and white, male and female, etc, etc.
And just when was it that all of you righteous heteros made the decision to be straight?
Was there a pivotal moment in your life where you realized you could either do the Godly, righteous thing and only desire one of the opposite sex or you could turn yourself into a reprobate by making the conscious decision to become a homosexual?
Honestly, did anyone in the history of the universe ever make such a choice? Gawd, this is so stupid.
George, we've discussed the "choice" issue at length already. My thought is, it's not so much a consious choice but a coercion or spiritual manipultion. You can go back and read it in more detail if you wish.
One of the greater inconsistencies of TWI was in its characterization of those who were "homos" as being particularly worthy of scorn because they were "possessed". However there were many,many, ( I mean alot of ) alcoholics in TWI - so many so that it was "winked at" yet by Way teaching alcoholism was caused by the "Leviathan" spirit. But somehow being a drunk (and consequently possessed) wasn't so bad since there were so many of thoses types around. "hey . you got mad at your wife and maybe hit her ? So what. you can get back in fellowship". Thats TOTAL BS yet I heard stuff like that.
Alcoholics and their corresponding behavior have done more to wreck lives, families, business, and mental health than any gay person of which I know. I guess Liberace was an abomination in the eyes of God yet the typical boozer was cool ?. Sure. Its cool for liquor heads to fight, lose jobs on a continual basis,
disappoint their children but for someone to be gay is worse ? Different standard. Guess having an alky devil spirit is cool with God ? Sure. Its being a "good ole boy" huh ? I know Way devotees who have lost their jobs, families, and their productive years to booze yet they think that because they weren't gay that god is somehow more respectful of them ? Get real....
You bring up a good point Diazbro. This relates somewhat to Trefor's post about ex ex-gays.
If homosexuality and alcoholism are spiritual or partly spiritual problems, then both situations should be treated the same way. With honesty, love, and patience.
There are alcoholics who get delivered from booze. I know a few. They get saved and they quit. And there are alcoholics who get saved, but don't get delivered from booze. Does that mean that the experience of those who do get delivered is counterfeit? Are these people Christian frauds? I don't think so.
There are people in just about every category of human suffering--whether it be cancer, alcohol, depression, sex addiction, or homosexuality,--who receive miraculous deliverance by Christ. And in just about every category, there are those who pray just as hard, but don't get delivered. I don't think anyone really knows why. Faith is certainly one element, but it's hard to tell someone who's waging a losing battle with one of these things that they don't have enough faith. Only God knows what's in the heart and we can't really make that call.
So why are there ex ex-gays? Same reason there are AA dropouts. But that doesn't mean that AA is a scam or that homosexuals can't get delivered.
Aaaand I'm starting to repeat myself, so If you'll all excuse me, I'm going to try to get caught up on some other projects that have been lingering for the past week and a half.
I had to go and look at your profile. All this time I thought you were a woman, and I thought to myself, damn, this woman cusses like a trooper! But when I looked at your profile, I saw that you are a guy, and so, that explains it a little bit.
I'm not sure I see the reason for your f word rant however...
If homosexuality and alcoholism are spiritual or partly spiritual problems, then both situations should be treated the same way. With honesty, love, and patience.
But why then aren't people talking about alcoholics with an equal level of intensity and disdain as they are gay people ? By Way teaching they are both caused by demonic possession so one must be willing to address both
categories ( as well as *all* those afflicted with so called "devil spirits) without distinction. In TWI lifestyle the alcoholic and drug addict is tolerated whereas the gay person is not. And the typical rationale behind that is that the bible has more to say about homosexuals than other types of demon induced maladies.
In many cases some have used this as a way to direct the focus to "gay people and their abomination" and away from their own personal problems. But its a frequency issue. We encounter many more alcoholics than we do gay people (at least to the best of our knowledge) so this leads to some familiarity with the situation. We might even have a substance problem ourselves and because of that we don't want to be judged so harshly by others.
I've heard Way trained people say things like "well I have my problems but at least I'm not gay so I won't have that to deal with at the bema" ? They wrongly rationalize that (at least in my opinion) , because they aren't gay, then God will cut them slack. Like a "get out of jail free" card. Imagine this conversation at the "bema" (where in Way teaching one receive rewards though only if Craig has approved them :> ).
"Hi God... Sure I had my problems with the bottle and I was a miserable parent and chased evey skirt I could but hey... I'm a guy and besides I knew lots of guys like that. And come on.. you MADE me like that.. you know what its like for us... And HEY ! At least I wasn't gay so give me my rewards !"
Its like such a person thinks that God grades on a curve. Like He would average human behavior and judge on that. Why would he ? He is omniscient and absolute so its only reasonable to assume he would deal with each person on their own terms *not* in relation to someone else.
I don't now why people are gay or how they wind up that way BUT if a person believes it is the result of demonic possession then that person should also be prepared to deal with the other types of so called "devil spirit" problems. We cannot arbitraily decide that its okay for us to disparage a particular group and let others off the hook just because one set of behaviors is more common.
But why then aren't people talking about alcoholics with an equal level of intensity and disdain as they are gay people ?
Listen,
If people here at the Grease Spot Cafe were saying, "Alcoholism is okay, there is nothing wrong with it, God doesn't say that it is wrong, alcohol addiction is a perfectly okay lifestyle so quit being so judgemental, it's not my bag, but it's perfectly okay for those who choose it", then I would say that there would be an argument against such sentiments.
People would supply story after story about the destructiveness of alcoholism, and they would supply scripture verses that are not supportive of drunkeness. Yet the majority of us, accepting that alcoholism is bad and dangerous, would also agree that it is right to love and treat alcoholics with respect. But we would also agree that alcoholics are doing something that is wrong and not healthy.
The fact is, very few people, if any, take a stand FOR alcohol addiction. If they did, ther WOULD BE
quote:
..people talking about alcoholics with an equal level of intensity and disdain as they are gay people ?
So, your argument here doesn't hold much water. You may take another tack on this, but this tack is weak.
But why then aren't people talking about alcoholics with an equal level of intensity and disdain as they are gay people ?
It is my general impression that among alcoholics, it is commonly recognized that further feeding of their alcoholism is bad. They know it. They also know that it is real hard to control, and that often they just dont have the self-control to be able to control their desire for more alcohol.
Yes drunkenness is a sin or broken fellowship, but when people realize that such is their state, they also are the first to tell you that it is bad. They know it is bad.
Actually John given TWI's interest in "logic" then the arugement is very strong.
If one wishes to discuss maladies/problems that are presumably the result of "devil spirit affliction" then that peson must be willing to deal with *all* of them and not selectively examine one above all the rest and ,worse, let others off the hook for having a so called devil spirit when they don't extend the same courtesy to all who are similarly afflicted.
Within TWI the reactions to those with undeniable substance problems were very mild as if it was something that "just happened" to us all (which of course isnt true). But Way teaching demands that alcholism be considered as the result of devil spirits so why was TWI , in its typical view of alcholics, very forgiving (and in some cases indifferent) whereas gays were represented as the enemy ?
And even those suspected of being gay or those who might sympathize with gays were equally as bad. Yet the boozers got the wink and as along as they didn't really mess up (I mean really) then they were left alone.
Again if being gay is the result of a devil spirit as is alcholism then we must deal with both similarly and not excuse the behavior of the latter (which TWI has done routinely and even for VPW) while vilifying the former. Its simply not "logical" by Way or general standards.
Worse. There are those christians who feel that because gay people exist then their bad behavior will be forgiven since God will surely focus all his wrath on the gay people while leaving the straights alone.
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Trefor Heywood
If this "deliverance" were so good def you wouldn't have ex ex-gays!
A leopard may appear to have stripes but the spots are there underneath.
-->
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excathedra
i don't even know what to say on this thread
first of all it's taken me a long long time to get over (and always working on it) the crap i was raised with and then of course the little cult
i spend a lot of time these days trying to convince neighborhood kids how wrong / hurtful their attitude is regarding homosexuality
i don't know, seems we're very far from where we should be
this neighborhood is primarily catholic - irish, italian and then your others (big
;)-->). most moved here from brooklyn, staten island, bronx
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GarthP2000
The anti-gay concept that I find most hilarious (and even bordering on insane) is how homosexuality is supposedly a threat (immediate or ultimate) to: 1) marriage, 2) family, 3) the entire Western civilization, and 4) G rated movies.
Amazing how much crap someone can extrapolate from that one account of Sodom and Gommorah in the Bible.
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outofdafog
Yea like the pro-creation argument. Like we need more people in the world. I don't know about you but I thought the whole idea of Adam and Eve was to go forth and produce, because God had foreknowledge of the christ child being born. Well if Christ has been born as the Christian church proclaims, died and arose, why continue to pro-create? Why continue to blame the homosexual for not being able to reproduce.
As I said before, adultery and divorce seem to me to be destroying the family more than anything else.
Speaking of overpopulation, all them people starving in the desert, why don't we take all that money that we raise to feed them, and MOVE THEM to where they can plant food and feed themselves??
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diazbro
One of the greater inconsistencies of TWI was in its characterization of those who were "homos" as being particularly worthy of scorn because they were "possessed". However there were many,many, ( I mean alot of ) alcoholics in TWI - so many so that it was "winked at" yet by Way teaching alcoholism was caused by the "Leviathan" spirit. But somehow being a drunk (and consequently possessed) wasn't so bad since there were so many of thoses types around. "hey . you got mad at your wife and maybe hit her ? So what. you can get back in fellowship". Thats TOTAL BS yet I heard stuff like that.
Alcoholics and their corresponding behavior have done more to wreck lives, families, business, and mental health than any gay person of which I know. I guess Liberace was an abomination in the eyes of God yet the typical boozer was cool ?. Sure. Its cool for liquor heads to fight, lose jobs on a continual basis,
disappoint their children but for someone to be gay is worse ? Different standard. Guess having an alky devil spirit is cool with God ? Sure. Its being a "good ole boy" huh ? I know Way devotees who have lost their jobs, families, and their productive years to booze yet they think that because they weren't gay that god is somehow more respectful of them ? Get real....
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J0nny Ling0
Excathedra, are you a New Yorker? I hadda bunch of friends in The Way from there. George C*mella, Tony Cr*sera, Linus Math*s, Cathy McEv*y, Kathy M*cIntyre, Todd Byrn*s, Ir*s Tate, Carol Sap*o, Glen and Louise Abr*mson, Vinnie Rocc*salvo, to name a few...
Those New Yorkers have always been a funny bunch to me. So many of them were so sarcastic to me in the Corps that I thought that they hated me. But really, it was "just them" and their "dryness" or whatever it is called. I finally got used to it and liked it...
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outofdafog
...Hey you got mad at your wife and maybe hit her? So what.....
This is not only a precept of TWI but of other churches also. During some "down time" during my involvement in TWI I attended a home town church for about 6 months. During that time I met and married a man.......just a few months later we got into an argument and he threw a pop bottle at me. I was shocked, and went to the pastor of the church (he had counseled us before marriage) and told him what happened. Unbelieveably, he took my husband's side and told me that I wasn't being a submissive wife.....PUKE..PUKE...PUKE Worse, his wife agreed........
These are the people that think they have the right to judge others? This does border on insanity..........
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outofdafog
One of the biggest alcoholics in TWI was ol' Vic (praise be His Name) himself.....
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excathedra
i'm more of an outskirter jonny
great points dear foggie, love you
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Jbarrax
I knew as soon as I wrote that somebody was going to take a cheap shot. No Garth; innocent until proven impossible to get along with. There are very few people in that category as I am able to get along with most people; hetero and homo, Democrat and Republican, Liberal and Conservative, black and white, male and female, etc, etc.
JerryB
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Jbarrax
George, we've discussed the "choice" issue at length already. My thought is, it's not so much a consious choice but a coercion or spiritual manipultion. You can go back and read it in more detail if you wish.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
You bring up a good point Diazbro. This relates somewhat to Trefor's post about ex ex-gays.
If homosexuality and alcoholism are spiritual or partly spiritual problems, then both situations should be treated the same way. With honesty, love, and patience.
There are alcoholics who get delivered from booze. I know a few. They get saved and they quit. And there are alcoholics who get saved, but don't get delivered from booze. Does that mean that the experience of those who do get delivered is counterfeit? Are these people Christian frauds? I don't think so.
There are people in just about every category of human suffering--whether it be cancer, alcohol, depression, sex addiction, or homosexuality,--who receive miraculous deliverance by Christ. And in just about every category, there are those who pray just as hard, but don't get delivered. I don't think anyone really knows why. Faith is certainly one element, but it's hard to tell someone who's waging a losing battle with one of these things that they don't have enough faith. Only God knows what's in the heart and we can't really make that call.
So why are there ex ex-gays? Same reason there are AA dropouts. But that doesn't mean that AA is a scam or that homosexuals can't get delivered.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Aaaand I'm starting to repeat myself, so If you'll all excuse me, I'm going to try to get caught up on some other projects that have been lingering for the past week and a half.
Peace
JerryB
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Trefor Heywood
There isn't any logic Garth - people love to blast the sins of others whilst minimising their own.
They are always happy to cite divine indulgence upon them whilst denying it to others.
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CM
I fail to see how it helps anyone to say that they are possessed or spritually manipulated when they have not faced a "demon/angel" themselves.
To say this about someone is just plain ignorance of the spritual forces which are rooted in the Father of spirits.
And I'm not talking about homosexuality either.
It takes A Lot of Love to cut through the crap.
It takes courage and the heart of God to go toe to toe and eye to eye with an angel of darkness.
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outofdafog
love you too excie
-->
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CM
edited-so as not to offend
sorry to leave u hanging Jonny and Garth
well now i've pulled the whole thing down
not making a diff anyway
i've deleted more would be posts
then i've posted recently...
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J0nny Ling0
CM
I had to go and look at your profile. All this time I thought you were a woman, and I thought to myself, damn, this woman cusses like a trooper! But when I looked at your profile, I saw that you are a guy, and so, that explains it a little bit.
I'm not sure I see the reason for your f word rant however...
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GarthP2000
Prolly a guy thing.
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diazbro
But why then aren't people talking about alcoholics with an equal level of intensity and disdain as they are gay people ? By Way teaching they are both caused by demonic possession so one must be willing to address both
categories ( as well as *all* those afflicted with so called "devil spirits) without distinction. In TWI lifestyle the alcoholic and drug addict is tolerated whereas the gay person is not. And the typical rationale behind that is that the bible has more to say about homosexuals than other types of demon induced maladies.
In many cases some have used this as a way to direct the focus to "gay people and their abomination" and away from their own personal problems. But its a frequency issue. We encounter many more alcoholics than we do gay people (at least to the best of our knowledge) so this leads to some familiarity with the situation. We might even have a substance problem ourselves and because of that we don't want to be judged so harshly by others.
I've heard Way trained people say things like "well I have my problems but at least I'm not gay so I won't have that to deal with at the bema" ? They wrongly rationalize that (at least in my opinion) , because they aren't gay, then God will cut them slack. Like a "get out of jail free" card. Imagine this conversation at the "bema" (where in Way teaching one receive rewards though only if Craig has approved them :> ).
"Hi God... Sure I had my problems with the bottle and I was a miserable parent and chased evey skirt I could but hey... I'm a guy and besides I knew lots of guys like that. And come on.. you MADE me like that.. you know what its like for us... And HEY ! At least I wasn't gay so give me my rewards !"
Its like such a person thinks that God grades on a curve. Like He would average human behavior and judge on that. Why would he ? He is omniscient and absolute so its only reasonable to assume he would deal with each person on their own terms *not* in relation to someone else.
I don't now why people are gay or how they wind up that way BUT if a person believes it is the result of demonic possession then that person should also be prepared to deal with the other types of so called "devil spirit" problems. We cannot arbitraily decide that its okay for us to disparage a particular group and let others off the hook just because one set of behaviors is more common.
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diazbro
Reminds me of my first marriage.....
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J0nny Ling0
Listen,
If people here at the Grease Spot Cafe were saying, "Alcoholism is okay, there is nothing wrong with it, God doesn't say that it is wrong, alcohol addiction is a perfectly okay lifestyle so quit being so judgemental, it's not my bag, but it's perfectly okay for those who choose it", then I would say that there would be an argument against such sentiments.
People would supply story after story about the destructiveness of alcoholism, and they would supply scripture verses that are not supportive of drunkeness. Yet the majority of us, accepting that alcoholism is bad and dangerous, would also agree that it is right to love and treat alcoholics with respect. But we would also agree that alcoholics are doing something that is wrong and not healthy.
The fact is, very few people, if any, take a stand FOR alcohol addiction. If they did, ther WOULD BE
So, your argument here doesn't hold much water. You may take another tack on this, but this tack is weak.
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Galen
Jonny Lingo:
It is my general impression that among alcoholics, it is commonly recognized that further feeding of their alcoholism is bad. They know it. They also know that it is real hard to control, and that often they just dont have the self-control to be able to control their desire for more alcohol.
Yes drunkenness is a sin or broken fellowship, but when people realize that such is their state, they also are the first to tell you that it is bad. They know it is bad.
So what is to debate?
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diazbro
Actually John given TWI's interest in "logic" then the arugement is very strong.
If one wishes to discuss maladies/problems that are presumably the result of "devil spirit affliction" then that peson must be willing to deal with *all* of them and not selectively examine one above all the rest and ,worse, let others off the hook for having a so called devil spirit when they don't extend the same courtesy to all who are similarly afflicted.
Within TWI the reactions to those with undeniable substance problems were very mild as if it was something that "just happened" to us all (which of course isnt true). But Way teaching demands that alcholism be considered as the result of devil spirits so why was TWI , in its typical view of alcholics, very forgiving (and in some cases indifferent) whereas gays were represented as the enemy ?
And even those suspected of being gay or those who might sympathize with gays were equally as bad. Yet the boozers got the wink and as along as they didn't really mess up (I mean really) then they were left alone.
Again if being gay is the result of a devil spirit as is alcholism then we must deal with both similarly and not excuse the behavior of the latter (which TWI has done routinely and even for VPW) while vilifying the former. Its simply not "logical" by Way or general standards.
Worse. There are those christians who feel that because gay people exist then their bad behavior will be forgiven since God will surely focus all his wrath on the gay people while leaving the straights alone.
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