My eighteen year old son is a "band queer". But he's not homosexual. That's just the term that non musician kids in the high school call kids that are in band, orchestra, or concert choir. "Band Queers", kinda funny, to me anyway. I guess I was a band queer back in the day also...
But amongst his music crowd, there are significantly more homo kids (girls and boys) than in let's say the jock crowd. Not as many as seem to be involved in DDF (Drama Debate Forensics), but more so than in the jock set.
And so, he is around gay kids and he treats them respectfully, although he does not agree with them and their lifestyle.
In answer to your questions of "would you allow such and such to occur?", I would say that I would answer in the affirmative to all of them. When it comes to "would I allow him to stay in a hotel room with a gay roomate? Well, I can tell you that if my son knew that a potential roomate was gay, he would prefer not to stay in the same hotel room with him. For two reasons. He would not want the stigma of being teased by fellow school mates for "having been in a private room with a fag", as would surely follow, had said scenario occurred, and he would be uncomfortable getting naked to get in the shower if he knew that a gay kid might look at him as an object of desire. You know, the same way that you girls might feel disrobing around men who are not your intimate one. Unless of course you are into that kinda thing
He is kind to his fellow students who are gay, but he did smack one square in the face one night at a dance. They were all dancing to "Whip It" by Devo, and having a blast making fun of "punk music and slam dancing", and were slam dancing up a storm, making fun of the "Eighties Set"..
During this song, this gay guy who had been telling others in school just how "cute" my son is (and I'll tell you Ashton Kutcher's got nothin on my son!), grabbed my son, pulled him to him, and started kissing him on the neck! So, when he figured out that it was this gay guy who had been talking about him for the previous weeks, he flat smacked him with a left hook and sent the gay guy to the floor.
So, no, I don't think he'd even want to room with a gay guy. He remains respectful as long as the local gay kids treat him respectfully. But after last weeks "Day of Silence Out Of Respect For Fellow Gay Student Day", where a lot of the gay girls gave him the finger for playing his guitar in the hallway (you can read about that in perhaps my first post on this thread), his desire to remain respectful has waned...
Submariners are not normal men. Going down underwater in a big metal tube with a bunch of other men is one of the most unnatural acts I can imagine. Anyone who would choose to make a lifestyle of doing that has got to have some serious problems.
Johnny: I can appreciate not wanting anything to do with a "gay day". Personally I would not allow my gay daughter to participate in such an event, because practices such as that tend to broaden the gap in my opinion as well as "shove" it in peoples faces" as I have heard you say in other threads and I agree.
There is nothing worse than somebody trying to get you to accept an idea that you just ain't gonna buy. Its the same with those here on this thread that want to shove their "christian beliefs about homosexuals" down peoples throats.
My only problem with some of these bible quoting responses is I am not sure how a gay's bedroom practice is going to affect a straight religious person. Now the shove it in your face, and marches and special days etc, I can see how this might get people's feathers ruffled. Or the line of thinking that gays are bringing the family unit to brink (I believe divorce is causing this much more than homosexuality). But how does it affect the "individual believer" in his day to day life, that he feels he must bible thump against it. What is he proving to an already, all-knowing God? a God who will meet out his justice at his time?
If I am wrong about accepting my gay daughter's right to be who she is, then I will answer to MY GOD for that, not anyone else's, and I guess I will have to take the consequences. On the other hand if I throw her out and dis-own her and come down her, what would God think of me for that. I'm between a rock and a hard spot. I am sure there would be godly consequences to that also.
No problem. And I think you sound reasonable in that respect too.
I guess the problem here is that since this discussion was opened up as a "What do you think about this?" kinda thread, without the stipulation of "no Christian doctrine on the subject allowed in this discussion", it only stands to reason that there are going to be opinions contrary to those of others, and that the biblical view point concerning the lifestyle is going to come up.
There are those of us who believe that the bible clearly labels homosexuality as sin, and that even though it is always right to "walk in love to them who are without", it is wrong to "put a stamp of approval" on something that the Almighty has said He does not in approve of. That to change ones opinion of a biblical edict from "wrong to right" because of Love is not right
I believe that I can (and have taught) my kids that "gay is not ok", but they should also love everybody, and "live peaceably with all men (and women) as much as lieth in them" as the Scripture tells us to.
For my son to have punched that kid was not really right according to Romans 12: last verse:
"Be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good"
But in his surprise, shock, and confusion, he lashed out. He is but a "ute". On the way to school this morning after I wrote that other post, he also informed me that the "kiss on his neck" turned into a bite which hurt him alot!
And so I guess I don't blame him for lashing out, but would Jesus have done that? From what we see in the Word, the answer would have to be "no", he would not have lashed out. But he did tell the woman taken in the very act of adultery;
..."neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more".
He forgave her, loved her, but also corrected her with doctrine.
And so, I guess this thread will go on and on..
But OoDaFog, if I met your daughter, I would be kind, respectful and loving, and so would my son, because this is the way we have chosen to walk in the way that we believe that the Bible teaches...
"Submariners are not normal men. Going down underwater in a big metal tube with a bunch of other men is one of the most unnatural acts I can imagine. Anyone who would choose to make a lifestyle of doing that has got to have some serious problems."
Thank you.
That is got to be the nicest thing anyone has said to me in at least the past hour.
While I do agree that 'going-down' with a bunch of men could well be an un-natural act; it is the big black steel pipe that makes it something entirely different.
I would still have to contend that even from among these not-normal 'un-natural act' performing serious problem carrying men; we can still observe human nature and distinguish between theory and law within these isolated functioning laboratorys of deranged men.
Sometimes we have the paradox of those who think they are overcoming what they believe to be evil with good yet end up doing evil themselves.
As has been stated, this does nothing for their cause. Many gay people reject Christianity because of what they see and hear and experience and we are not just talking about Phelpsian extremists.
For my son to have punched that kid was not really right according to Romans 12: last verse:
Nahh, I disagree. As much as I come to the defense of equal rights for homosexuals, and with no apologies for doing so, that particular gay was not only out of line for doing what he did, but since there was a bite involved, that can also be rightfully judged as an assault.
I mean, if any guy here tried to grab a girl and force a move on her like that, how many of us here (both men and women) would go to her aid, and pound on the perp, hmmm? So be it homo or hetero, unwanted sexual advances are worth a punch in the face, at least.
I know thats what I would do to the guy, and I would offer no apology nor repentance for doing so. At all.
I have to agree with Garth here. This kid truly invaded your son's space. That is not acceptable.
Johnny - I would think my daughter would find you a very fine person. I love the balance in your post. It is so honest yet non-judgemental. A very striking balance.
Many gay people reject Christianity because of what they see and hear and experience and we are not just talking about Phelpsian extremists.
It's not just gay people. People from all walks of life reject Christianity because it doesn't seem logical within the experiences we've had in life. Of course, it's easy to oppose groups like Fred Phelps and other psychos, but still respect Christians who do good.
Jesus kept company with many people that his world saw as undesirable and looked down upon, those who were less than "pure".
Even well intentioned Christians can be respectors of persons and the message that gay people are somehow not wanted can come across pretty powerfully.
I cann't spell and wish that I could import spell check into the post a reply box, but I can read. I am well aware that you quoted Romans, but, (I could be wrong here) is it not true that it's and all or nothing attitude. That you don't pick and chose what you believe?
So if that is true, then why is it that I can't use another section of the Bible?
As to your last post I was suprised to hear that you are polite to homosexuals, actualy I was suprised to hear you where polite at all, as finely veiled insults are insults non the less.
You can use any and all of the Bible Sharon. The reason I've focused on Romans is because it's in the New Testament. Most of the attempts I've seen to discredit the idea that the Bible doesn't condone homosexuality focus on the Old Testament and then equate the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality to other elements of the Mosaic law, which have been set aside. The reason I focus on Romans is to illustrate the fact that, even in what TWI referred to as "the grace administration", in an epistle in which Paul argued stridently for righteousness by faith, homosexuality is presented as an ungodly and unnatural practice.
And you would probably be surprised if you met me. I'm a pretty mild-mannered person and always have been. But when it comes to doctrine and institutions, I do get a little pointed, and can be unflinching in my criticism--say, of Microsoft, Inc. the Bush administration, or a denomination. When dealing with individuals however, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and try to relate to them as a person. So I see the collective influence of homosexuals as bad, but I treat individuals, homo or hetero, as innocent until proven guilty. That may be illogical and inconsistent, but it's the way I relate to the world.
Jerry...."innocent until proven guilty"..guilty of disobedience to God's heart I'm assuming you're meaning..a good one liner IMHO as I've always been told that the "homo hook" is one of the more difficult "hooks"in life to overcome in terms of refusing past behaviopr and making a concious choice TO be obedient to God's Word & NOT partiscipating in the past behavior.
I ponder this thread now & then..I have three kids & all are straight..so its hard for me to "think" how I'd react to the specific inqiries mentioned by many of you...ieSharon & outadafog..I respect your positions & obviously JerryB's line of thought most likely isn't what you want to hear..& comes across as callous or unfeeling I suppose..but I think that God is pretty clear on this subject & in the dealings I've had with homos over the years..its been very very seldom that I've been dealt with "honestly" in 9/l0 dealings..
I know that we are to love as Christ loves..& in my life its been super super hard to really "buddy up" to someone who in the back of their mind would have an unGodly adgenda possibly for me in their behalf..thus in allowing a child to sleep over etc with a homo..I'd definitely put my foot down.
I play V-ball each week with a homo...and in all of my attempts to treat him with civility & encouragement..he's been very very cold & indifferent..I've never attempted to speak the Bible at him & probably never will and have played against him with him for 6-8 years now..and I see similar behaviors with the different "friends " he brings to play with our group now & then...same ole "chip on their shoulder" mentality..because of their sexual preference...to me its strange because I am hetero & sexual preference to me is something I don't even consider in dealing with others...
And just when was it that all of you righteous heteros made the decision to be straight?
Was there a pivotal moment in your life where you realized you could either do the Godly, righteous thing and only desire one of the opposite sex or you could turn yourself into a reprobate by making the conscious decision to become a homosexual?
Honestly, did anyone in the history of the universe ever make such a choice? Gawd, this is so stupid.
And Def, I've seen some of the folks that have been "delivered" from their former lifestyle and, well let's just say their transformation didn't appear to be entirely completed yet...
or def.....it could be the self-righteous and condescending attitude that you are currently displaying. Seems like you got life all figured out. Good for you.....
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Long Gone
My eighteen year old son is a "band queer". But he's not homosexual. That's just the term that non musician kids in the high school call kids that are in band, orchestra, or concert choir. "Band Queers", kinda funny, to me anyway. I guess I was a band queer back in the day also...
But amongst his music crowd, there are significantly more homo kids (girls and boys) than in let's say the jock crowd. Not as many as seem to be involved in DDF (Drama Debate Forensics), but more so than in the jock set.
And so, he is around gay kids and he treats them respectfully, although he does not agree with them and their lifestyle.
In answer to your questions of "would you allow such and such to occur?", I would say that I would answer in the affirmative to all of them. When it comes to "would I allow him to stay in a hotel room with a gay roomate? Well, I can tell you that if my son knew that a potential roomate was gay, he would prefer not to stay in the same hotel room with him. For two reasons. He would not want the stigma of being teased by fellow school mates for "having been in a private room with a fag", as would surely follow, had said scenario occurred, and he would be uncomfortable getting naked to get in the shower if he knew that a gay kid might look at him as an object of desire. You know, the same way that you girls might feel disrobing around men who are not your intimate one. Unless of course you are into that kinda thing
He is kind to his fellow students who are gay, but he did smack one square in the face one night at a dance. They were all dancing to "Whip It" by Devo, and having a blast making fun of "punk music and slam dancing", and were slam dancing up a storm, making fun of the "Eighties Set"..
During this song, this gay guy who had been telling others in school just how "cute" my son is (and I'll tell you Ashton Kutcher's got nothin on my son!), grabbed my son, pulled him to him, and started kissing him on the neck! So, when he figured out that it was this gay guy who had been talking about him for the previous weeks, he flat smacked him with a left hook and sent the gay guy to the floor.
So, no, I don't think he'd even want to room with a gay guy. He remains respectful as long as the local gay kids treat him respectfully. But after last weeks "Day of Silence Out Of Respect For Fellow Gay Student Day", where a lot of the gay girls gave him the finger for playing his guitar in the hallway (you can read about that in perhaps my first post on this thread), his desire to remain respectful has waned...
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LG
I was kidding, Galen, as I am now.
Submariners are not normal men. Going down underwater in a big metal tube with a bunch of other men is one of the most unnatural acts I can imagine. Anyone who would choose to make a lifestyle of doing that has got to have some serious problems.
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LG
Seems pretty reasonable, Jonny.
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outofdafog
Johnny: I can appreciate not wanting anything to do with a "gay day". Personally I would not allow my gay daughter to participate in such an event, because practices such as that tend to broaden the gap in my opinion as well as "shove" it in peoples faces" as I have heard you say in other threads and I agree.
There is nothing worse than somebody trying to get you to accept an idea that you just ain't gonna buy. Its the same with those here on this thread that want to shove their "christian beliefs about homosexuals" down peoples throats.
My only problem with some of these bible quoting responses is I am not sure how a gay's bedroom practice is going to affect a straight religious person. Now the shove it in your face, and marches and special days etc, I can see how this might get people's feathers ruffled. Or the line of thinking that gays are bringing the family unit to brink (I believe divorce is causing this much more than homosexuality). But how does it affect the "individual believer" in his day to day life, that he feels he must bible thump against it. What is he proving to an already, all-knowing God? a God who will meet out his justice at his time?
If I am wrong about accepting my gay daughter's right to be who she is, then I will answer to MY GOD for that, not anyone else's, and I guess I will have to take the consequences. On the other hand if I throw her out and dis-own her and come down her, what would God think of me for that. I'm between a rock and a hard spot. I am sure there would be godly consequences to that also.
Just some food for thought.....
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outofdafog
Johnny - I wasn't directing all that at you, so don't take that personally.
After my first paragraph I was just opening up other questions.
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J0nny Ling0
Oh no OoDaFog,
No problem. And I think you sound reasonable in that respect too.
I guess the problem here is that since this discussion was opened up as a "What do you think about this?" kinda thread, without the stipulation of "no Christian doctrine on the subject allowed in this discussion", it only stands to reason that there are going to be opinions contrary to those of others, and that the biblical view point concerning the lifestyle is going to come up.
There are those of us who believe that the bible clearly labels homosexuality as sin, and that even though it is always right to "walk in love to them who are without", it is wrong to "put a stamp of approval" on something that the Almighty has said He does not in approve of. That to change ones opinion of a biblical edict from "wrong to right" because of Love is not right
I believe that I can (and have taught) my kids that "gay is not ok", but they should also love everybody, and "live peaceably with all men (and women) as much as lieth in them" as the Scripture tells us to.
For my son to have punched that kid was not really right according to Romans 12: last verse:
"Be not overcome of evil but overcome evil with good"
But in his surprise, shock, and confusion, he lashed out. He is but a "ute". On the way to school this morning after I wrote that other post, he also informed me that the "kiss on his neck" turned into a bite which hurt him alot!
And so I guess I don't blame him for lashing out, but would Jesus have done that? From what we see in the Word, the answer would have to be "no", he would not have lashed out. But he did tell the woman taken in the very act of adultery;
..."neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more".
He forgave her, loved her, but also corrected her with doctrine.
And so, I guess this thread will go on and on..
But OoDaFog, if I met your daughter, I would be kind, respectful and loving, and so would my son, because this is the way we have chosen to walk in the way that we believe that the Bible teaches...
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Galen
Long Gone:
"I was kidding, Galen, as I am now."
Yes, but I wanted to throw in my tu-pence.
:-)
"Submariners are not normal men. Going down underwater in a big metal tube with a bunch of other men is one of the most unnatural acts I can imagine. Anyone who would choose to make a lifestyle of doing that has got to have some serious problems."
Thank you.
That is got to be the nicest thing anyone has said to me in at least the past hour.
While I do agree that 'going-down' with a bunch of men could well be an un-natural act; it is the big black steel pipe that makes it something entirely different.
I would still have to contend that even from among these not-normal 'un-natural act' performing serious problem carrying men; we can still observe human nature and distinguish between theory and law within these isolated functioning laboratorys of deranged men.
:-)
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Trefor Heywood
Sometimes we have the paradox of those who think they are overcoming what they believe to be evil with good yet end up doing evil themselves.
As has been stated, this does nothing for their cause. Many gay people reject Christianity because of what they see and hear and experience and we are not just talking about Phelpsian extremists.
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GarthP2000
Nahh, I disagree. As much as I come to the defense of equal rights for homosexuals, and with no apologies for doing so, that particular gay was not only out of line for doing what he did, but since there was a bite involved, that can also be rightfully judged as an assault.
I mean, if any guy here tried to grab a girl and force a move on her like that, how many of us here (both men and women) would go to her aid, and pound on the perp, hmmm? So be it homo or hetero, unwanted sexual advances are worth a punch in the face, at least.
I know thats what I would do to the guy, and I would offer no apology nor repentance for doing so. At all.
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outofdafog
I have to agree with Garth here. This kid truly invaded your son's space. That is not acceptable.
Johnny - I would think my daughter would find you a very fine person. I love the balance in your post. It is so honest yet non-judgemental. A very striking balance.
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ex10
trefor, you bring up such an excellent point.
I don't want my daughter to reject Christianity because she can't reconcile what she believes with what she lives.
And it would be a total shame, for her gay friends to feel that Christianity rejects them.
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Mister P-Mosh
It's not just gay people. People from all walks of life reject Christianity because it doesn't seem logical within the experiences we've had in life. Of course, it's easy to oppose groups like Fred Phelps and other psychos, but still respect Christians who do good.
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Trefor Heywood
Thanks ex10.
Jesus kept company with many people that his world saw as undesirable and looked down upon, those who were less than "pure".
Even well intentioned Christians can be respectors of persons and the message that gay people are somehow not wanted can come across pretty powerfully.
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ex10
And I hate that, Trefor. I absolutely hate the fact that gay people are doomed before they even start with Christians.
Get me on my soapbox.....
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Jbarrax
You can use any and all of the Bible Sharon. The reason I've focused on Romans is because it's in the New Testament. Most of the attempts I've seen to discredit the idea that the Bible doesn't condone homosexuality focus on the Old Testament and then equate the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality to other elements of the Mosaic law, which have been set aside. The reason I focus on Romans is to illustrate the fact that, even in what TWI referred to as "the grace administration", in an epistle in which Paul argued stridently for righteousness by faith, homosexuality is presented as an ungodly and unnatural practice.
And you would probably be surprised if you met me. I'm a pretty mild-mannered person and always have been. But when it comes to doctrine and institutions, I do get a little pointed, and can be unflinching in my criticism--say, of Microsoft, Inc. the Bush administration, or a denomination. When dealing with individuals however, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and try to relate to them as a person. So I see the collective influence of homosexuals as bad, but I treat individuals, homo or hetero, as innocent until proven guilty. That may be illogical and inconsistent, but it's the way I relate to the world.
Peace
JerryB
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GarthP2000
... or innocent until proven homo?
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outofdafog
Garth - that is pricelss....
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J0nny Ling0
Thank you OoDafog
-->
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Second James
Jerry...."innocent until proven guilty"..guilty of disobedience to God's heart I'm assuming you're meaning..a good one liner IMHO as I've always been told that the "homo hook" is one of the more difficult "hooks"in life to overcome in terms of refusing past behaviopr and making a concious choice TO be obedient to God's Word & NOT partiscipating in the past behavior.
I ponder this thread now & then..I have three kids & all are straight..so its hard for me to "think" how I'd react to the specific inqiries mentioned by many of you...ieSharon & outadafog..I respect your positions & obviously JerryB's line of thought most likely isn't what you want to hear..& comes across as callous or unfeeling I suppose..but I think that God is pretty clear on this subject & in the dealings I've had with homos over the years..its been very very seldom that I've been dealt with "honestly" in 9/l0 dealings..
I know that we are to love as Christ loves..& in my life its been super super hard to really "buddy up" to someone who in the back of their mind would have an unGodly adgenda possibly for me in their behalf..thus in allowing a child to sleep over etc with a homo..I'd definitely put my foot down.
I play V-ball each week with a homo...and in all of my attempts to treat him with civility & encouragement..he's been very very cold & indifferent..I've never attempted to speak the Bible at him & probably never will and have played against him with him for 6-8 years now..and I see similar behaviors with the different "friends " he brings to play with our group now & then...same ole "chip on their shoulder" mentality..because of their sexual preference...to me its strange because I am hetero & sexual preference to me is something I don't even consider in dealing with others...
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def59
Many homosexuals (could we drop the use of homos, its derogartory and unChristian), are angry, bitter people toward straights.
Why? Beats me. It could be they sense the hopelessness of their lifestyle and can't see any way out.
So if they can't change (the stance of the so-call gay rights side) then they can be angry over the dead-end road they are on.
But there is hope for the homosexual. Deliverance is possible.
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LG
Def, could it be that some are simply angry about how they've been treated?
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George Aar
And just when was it that all of you righteous heteros made the decision to be straight?
Was there a pivotal moment in your life where you realized you could either do the Godly, righteous thing and only desire one of the opposite sex or you could turn yourself into a reprobate by making the conscious decision to become a homosexual?
Honestly, did anyone in the history of the universe ever make such a choice? Gawd, this is so stupid.
And Def, I've seen some of the folks that have been "delivered" from their former lifestyle and, well let's just say their transformation didn't appear to be entirely completed yet...
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excathedra
hey hey hey i was born
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outofdafog
or def.....it could be the self-righteous and condescending attitude that you are currently displaying. Seems like you got life all figured out. Good for you.....
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