Why are you assuming that God makes some people homosexual? And why are you assuming that a homosexual is locked out of all that is godly and spiritual?
People make choices according to the dictates of their minds and hearts, but God still loves all and sent his Son as the saviour of all mankind. Why don't you just tell her the truth that some Christians are just plain hard hearted to the feelings of others? There are plently of pharisees wearing the cloak of Christianity today and they often don't evidence the love of God or genuine spiritual fruit. Otherwise they would have some compassion and would not be as judgemental. They also sadly enough influence others including young people.
There are always groups formed and they usually shun each other or at least rival groups. Wasn't any different when we were in school, way back in the day.
I never allowed labels to separate me from friends, yet as time went on many friends separated from me because I didn't fit their label. Mexican friends that I'd known since first grade slowly slipped away and associated strictly with other Mexicans. Other friends became hard core jocks, some became hard core freaks.
Each group claimed other groups shunned them, but yet they shunned the other groups as well. If you were to fit into a group you had to cut off associations with the other group. It always boiled down to if you really wanted to fit in, you had to be one of "them". Never at first, but always there would come a time a decision had to be made.
Are the new friends, or more appropriately new group as some of these friends may have been around for years and wondered over, are they worth your other friends? The advice I always gave my sons was to be themselves and allow the others to choose if they wanted some sort of label to dictate friendship.
In middle and high school, the term being used by kids to express that something is bad, unpopular, boring, wrong style, etc... is "gay"
I don't allow it in my classroom and when my students ask why, I tell them that it is a phrase born of ignorance and encouraged by fear and the same kind of no-brain thinking that civil rights was about. (and kids today think racial prejudice is 'stupid')
If/when MOST people meet/become friends with someone who is gay, they realize that all the cr*p family, church, or whomever told them is based on nothing real.
Ex, tell your very bright young lady that it is the same thing as being against having purple hair and making it part of your religion because you don't like it, are a bit afraid of it (maybe because you're not sure you DON'T want purple hair) and you decide to play god and treat anyone with purple hair as a sinner going to hell.
Ain't God's fault when people act like fools. A phrase that goes around in my mind when I see those who lack tolerance and stick to fundamentalist dogma is: "Lord, save me from your followers."
I always have to remember that there are many more people who don't act like they live in an Arthur Miller play.
Nowadays, children tend to be more tolerant than back when we were teens. I believe they are more tolerant because they have been raised in a culture where being gay and/or being different is more acceptable. This probably doesn't wash with some parts of the country and with some right wing conservative groups. Probably is different in different parts of the country.
My child is 15 and gay and the other day was walking down the hall, and a couple of girls called her a dyke as she passed them. This doesn't appear to be the norm though at her school and we live in a rural town and the school she attended before was even smaller and more rural than this one. She has always had alot of friends because the kids tend to look at her personality more so than her sexual preference.
God does not make people homosexual. Human weakness and Satanic predation do that. Homosexuals can and do get delivered by the way. As much as the gay rights movement would like to bury this truth it has been documented. People aren't born gay. They either choose it or are coerced and pulled into it; often by a combination of lust, frustration, alchohol and drugs--and spirits. It's a mean hustle for sure, but it's still a hustle. Alchohol and drug abuse are much higher in the gay community than in straight society. Partly, imho, because that's how many of them got pulled into it and partly because it dulls the conscience.
The Christians who shun "gays" are not necessarily ignorant or hard-hearted. They're just fundamentalists. They shun gays because they believe the Bible, which clearly teaches that homosexuality is a particularly objectionable sin in the eyes of God. Fundamentalist Christians do not like the cultural push to take something that the Bible calls an "abomination" and turn it into an accepted lifestyle. We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is a natural or unnatural state--and we have--but the bottom line is, many people still accept the Bible as truth. And that means they cannot accept gays as normal healthy people. The only honest way to criticize these people is to prove that the Bible is wrong and cannot be trusted.
By the way, equating gay rights with civil rights offends a great many African Americans, myself included. It's not the same thing. As I've already said the notion that people are born gay, is not universally accepted and has not been proven. Personally I think it's malarkety. Besides not being a natural state, homosexuality is not the same as race or ethnicity because it can easily be hidden. Gay people can and mostly do, hide that aspect of their lives in order to fit in and excel. People are definitely born black, Asian, Hispanic etc. And most blacks cannot hide that ancestry. Some can "pass", most cannot. I have to deal almost everyday on some level with the issue of whether the predominately white society around me judges me based on my skin color. When I walk down the street, I KNOW there are people with whom I share that street who automatically think less of me because I'm a black male. There is no "closet" I can go into or come out of at will.
A black homosexual can be delivered from homosexuality, but he'll still be black.
My most precious 15 year old daughter is having a hard time with Christianity and going to church.
Reason being, she has some gay friends. She says, she can't understand why all the Christians shun the gay kids at school.
Does your church speak out against homosexuality or something other than just the kids at her school? If your church isn't viciously anti-homosexual then I would point that out in contrast with the kids at her school. If your church leaders do openly and repeatedly focus on homosexuality more often than you think they should, then perhaps you should point out that they are just men interpreting the Bible and focusing on the things that are important to them, and that it's ok to disagree with them as they are not infallible.
quote:
Originally posted by ex10:
She has a point, and I tend to agree with her.
You should definitely mention that fact to her, she will appreciate it.
quote:
Originally posted by ex10:
She says, if God is love, then why would he make some people homosexual, and then totally lock them out of any kind of Christian spirituality?
Good question, for which I have no pat answer.
That question is actually very similar to one that I've always had that helped me become an atheist.
If God is all-good, all-knowing, exists outside of time, and all-powerful, then he is responsible for everything that happens. I don't see how any real personal responsibility could exist in a world where the God that made us and everything else would have known ahead of time that we would sin, and that things like death would come to exist because of the shortcomings he programmed into us.
In effect, the way I see it, there can be no biblical God if he made us imperfect, because that would either be non-loving or flat out evil, by the standards he supposedly created. If there were a God, then why would he create a child molester and create children that are vulnerable to be murdered and raped by him? Why would a loving God have created Hitler, knowing full well that he would be responsible for the grisly murders of millions?
Sorry that I can't say that I found any real answer in the years that I've had this question as well, but I do think it's good that you care enough about your daughter and that she is comfortable enough to ask you. I can't say that I ever had the same opportunity having grown up in TWI.
She says, if God is love, then why would he make some people homosexual,. . .
If someone asked me that question, I'd explain that God doesn't make people homosexual. I'd explain that God made Adam and Eve, and that way is God's way, but people can and do choose otherwise.
Namecalling is out. Gays shouldn't be called dykes and fags, and Christians shouldn't be called bigots and homophobes.
Don't you think that gay people get offended when people like J Barrax express their opinions?
There are many documentated case of "false" deliveries too, there is even an ex ex-gay movement. The Bible is down to how it is translated and interpreted and should also be viewed by the conditions and society of its times.
It's been used to justify many things including how black people were treated by "Bible believing Christians." Maybe it's easier to hide than skin colour, but one is still the same personal situation and dealing with prejudice.
There should be no need for closets except for storing clothes.
The Christians who shun "gays" are not necessarily ignorant or hard-hearted. They're just fundamentalists. They shun gays because they believe the Bible, which clearly teaches that homosexuality is a particularly objectionable sin in the eyes of God. Fundamentalist Christians do not like the cultural push to take something that the Bible calls an "abomination" and turn it into an accepted lifestyle. We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is a natural or unnatural state--and we have--but the bottom line is, many people still accept the Bible as truth. And that means they cannot accept gays as normal healthy people. The only honest way to criticize these people is to prove that the Bible is wrong and cannot be trusted.
Ya know, I agree with this. Many Christian people actually believe that the Bible is God's will for man. And this "will for man" contains edicts that are contrary to the "gay doctrine" that being gay is natural, and that "one is born that way". Therefore, it is only logical that one who believes that the Bible is The Word of God, would take offense to the current "cultural push" that being gay is natural, and that is should be embraced by all in the name of Tolerance and Diversity.
For instance: My son's highschool, Juneau Douglas High, has a particularly large amount of gay girls attending. Juneau, Alaska is well known for a large population of lesbians btw. Now, my son Kianu, 18, knows numerous gay chicks, and hangs with them on many an occasion (within his circle of friends), and treats them respectfully. He does not agree with their lifestyle, but he is kind but prefers not to discuss the "gay issue" with them, because he knows that it will end in a disagreement. He disagrees with the lifestyle because of his biblical beliefs. But he is no "perfect Christian" himself, engages in partying at times, and as far as I can tell is fairly sexually active. He's eighteen and handsome as hell. -->
But what he does really resent about the gay scene is their constant "cultural push" as JBarrax put it. Last week, the High School promoted homosexuality by proclaiming last wednesday as a "day of silence" in order to honor our fellow gay students. He asked the principle directly if this day was supposed to be a thing in order to honor AIDS victims, but she said; "No, it is a day to honor gay people".
Apparently, people who were to show their support for gays were to wear a certin color ribbon on their chests, one for lesbians, and one for gay guys, and that everyone in school was to be quiet all day and not to talk. A day of silence.
Well, my son took exception to this. He always takes his (my) guitar to school, and during one of his free periods, sits in the hall and plays and sings with his friends. And, he likes to talk and be funny. And so, this is exactly what he did on that State sponsored "gay day".
And of course, many lesbian chicks were giving he and his friends the finger throughout the day (My! What Tolerance!), and one female teacher took them aside and gave them a "talking to" about "Tolerance" and "Diversity", to which he and his friends responded with their "right to free speech", and that it was their constitutional right to disagree with the school's effort to promote respect for something they didn't believe in.
And so, with respect Ex 10, I do believe that this "cultural push" that JBarrax mentioned, and that I have illustrated with a very recent and close to home event is one reason that many Christian people have a hard time with being tolerant towards this lifestyle.
And remember, these kids are very young, and definitely do not know what it means (many times) to walk in the love of God as young Christian people.
I will also say that there a lot of straight kids in my sons high school who are definitely NOT Christians, who take exception to being told that "gay is ok", due to what they perceive to be the "unnaturalness" of homosexuality". I don't think that any group will ever be able to convince kids that homosexuality is not something to be made fun of...
Christian people (many of them) believe that the Bible is God's Word, as I do, and therefore, cannot accept this lifestyle as normal and ok. This is Our Belief (on this subject), and therefore will be contrasting to those who are trying to push on our society that this lifestyle should "be embraced by all". It is my opinion that they may embrace this lifestyle if they wish, and take part in it if they wish, for we live in a free country. But it is also my belief that their lifestyle will bring damage to themselves, because it is contrary to God's Word. Just like my son's "quasi-partying lifestyle" will bring damage to himself if he doesn't "cool his jets"...
“Reason being, she has some gay friends. She says, she can't understand why all the Christians shun the gay kids at school.”
Because many of them believe that homosexuality is a sin.
“She says, if God is love, then why would he make some people homosexual, and then totally lock them out of any kind of Christian spirituality?”
I must point out that you just made the statement that G-d makes people homosexual.
Trefor-
“Gays of any age often feel shunned and shut out of Christian spirituality.”
I think that you are speaking from your experiences and what you saw as a teenager, Whereas today it is different. Truly I dont mean to offend you, sir. But today things are different.
:-)
Jbarrax-
“God does not make people homosexual.”
I agree.
“… Human weakness and Satanic predation do that. Homosexuals can and do get delivered by the way. As much as the gay rights movement would like to bury this truth it has been documented. …”
This is my understanding of the situation.
There are many things that people need to be delivered from, and unfortunately many times some of them will make efforts to get deliverance, but it may or may not come for them. Why? I don’t know, I would guess that a part of the ‘human-condition’ includes that sometimes the thing we most want to be delivered from is the thing that eludes us the most.
“The Christians who shun "gays" are not necessarily ignorant or hard-hearted. They're just fundamentalists."
But 'love' wouldn't hurt them either.
"... They shun gays because they believe the Bible, which clearly teaches that homosexuality is a particularly objectionable sin in the eyes of God. Fundamentalist Christians do not like the cultural push to take something that the Bible calls an "abomination" and turn it into an accepted lifestyle. We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is a natural or unnatural state--and we have--but the bottom line is, many people still accept the Bible as truth. And that means they cannot accept gays as normal healthy people. The only honest way to criticize these people is to prove that the Bible is wrong and cannot be trusted.”
While I agree with this statement; I add:
When Jesus taught his jewish followers: “... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ...” I think the example for us is that we should NOT be casting stones. Homosexual behavior is still a sin, but so is the natural state of all men, we can all be delivered and we need to be loving and serving one another. Not focusing on who to shun. We are all sinners, before we were born again.
Granted at the same time, we have been given guidelines on who is acceptable for our leadership, and clearly anyone walking in the paths of sinful ways should never be leaders within the church.
“By the way, equating gay rights with civil rights offends a great many African Americans, myself included. It's not the same thing. .... ”
I agree.
One of our sons is currently attending High-school and I coach fencing there. I see a lot of teens acting out homosexually there. Some kids have approached Matthew and even told him that they can not be his friends because they are homosexual. One girl [Angelina] was hanging out with Matthew and had even came to our home numerous times, when Matt expressed interest in another girl, suddenly Angelina told him that she could no longer hang around Matthew because she [Angelina] is Bi-Sexual. ??? Anyway, these are teens, and teens are into clicks and groups.
Right now it does seem that openly proclaiming yourself to be Homo-sexual or even Bi-sexual is a fad and done for popularity. There may well be the occasional teen who does not like the "queers", but that is just their way of separating into groups. Over-all Proclaiming yourself as such seems to be a common method of gaining popularity among others.
I have seen a lot of teens ‘coupling’ as boy-girl, and girl-girl; holding each other, kissing, etc. I keep telling them that "fencing-time" is not "tonsil hockey time". [they usually look at me funny]
It is common today for these kids to be acting out sexually and apparently to be experimenting. From what we were taught by the Social-Services in getting our Foster-License, It is very common for children to begin acting out, expressing themselves and to experiment with their own sexuality beginning at 12 years old. By the time they get 15-17 their thick into it.
Upon my retirement from the US Navy, I was offered a job where the Navy would certify me as a High-School teacher and pay my salary to go into any High-School in America and to start-up a NJ-ROTC program. [All 20+ year retirees are offered this by the way, it is promoted as a great method of stepping into civilian life by picking any community and entering that community as a High-School teacher].
This High-school that Matthew attends, is filled everyday with young girls who look, dress and act like street-walking prostitutes. I only go there twice a week to coach fencing, and I am amazed at how many of these girls try to come-on to me. I am so glad that I chose not to accept a position as a teacher there.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Presumably, He created the spiritual realm as well.
I believe He also created "free will."
Therefore, either God made an imperfect world, or He made a world full of imperfect creatures, and gave them the wherewithal to behave imperfectly, and to suffer the consequences.
Homosexuality is a dysfunction of Nature. Sexual desire is the combined result of genetic, neurological, hormonal, environmental and behavioral "imprints" each of us receives from conception forward. Or so you'd think. If you want to add "spiritual," you won't get any argument from me, but that is neither measurable, nor provable. The others, in some degree, are. Yet I wonder why it isn't just "hard-wired" into us. Why is this complex collaboration of independent factors, so susceptible to variation, necessary to define our sexual inclinations? Maybe it's just to keep things interesting.
Human beings are, ourselves, a dysfunction of Nature also. The capacity to reason is not found anywhere (else) in Nature. It is only in man (and rare enough in man). Therefore we are genetic mutations, probably of the far more "functional" ape family. In this respect, homosexuality is a subset of the dysfunction called "humanity."
Our more functional (instinctive) side is the collective impulse. We are driven to congregate, to gather and organize. The organizing principle throughout Nature is our commonality. Ducks flock and sheep herd, but you don't see ducks cohabiting with sheep.
The other side of the commonality coin is differentiation, also known as, discrimination. It is natural to discriminate. It is natural to shun those who are different, and to embrace those who are the same... er, unless you're talking about sex, when it is "natural" to embrace our opposites. (I think "complement" is a better term than "opposite" when referring to the sexes, personally. Male and female are one another's complement -not compliment-, in that they complete one another in Nature's "plan." True, they "oppose" one another often enough, but only as part of finding their best complements.)
Look at any community and you will see both principles at work. Gays congregate. There is a "gay community." But look closer at their "community" and there are divisions and subdivisions and sub-sub-divisions. Look at churches. Clubs. Any organization. The us/them principle is alive and well, within and without.
Rather than saying "we must never discriminate," which is as realistic as saying "we must never eliminate," we should seek wise ground rules for discrimination, or differentiation.
We must have the right to include, AND to exclude, because they are each an essential part of our nature. Our capacity to reason, and our inclusive side, should teach us to properly limit the exclusive side, without repressing it in unhealthy ways.
As for Christians, they're just another tribe, practicing inclusion and exclusion, like gays and communists and Catholics and Republicans and cultists and sports fans and...
To get along, we must learn to live both with, and without, each other.
I'm pretty sure there is a difference between a teenagers group behavior and what he or she (or it) really thinks. Most groups have Alpha n Beta leaders who are usually the ones dictating (to an extent) group thought the rest just go along with it.
I'm right there with your kids as they leave home and go to college and believe me I've seen hardened attitudes towards alot of things change as they become exposed to new ideas and learn abit of their own humanity and weaknessess.
In terms of the religious right, well I went to a pretty fundamentalist church for a few years and found them to have the same sins as everybody else. This particular church however was having a difficult time admitting it...
I think, what it boils down to, is we are afraid of what we see in the mirror.
Now I am gonna offer a bit of advice, (fancy that)
Yer daughter COULD have a chat with a more moderate christian of the teasing group and ask a little about Gods plan for the sinner and a
Christians responsability in carrying that out. I'd guess, if she sorta led the conversation she could get the person talking about how great Gods love is and how it is for everybody n how it's his/her/its resonsability to carry the message to others and show 'em God's love. In which case...she's got 'em where she want's em ;)--> and just needs to move in for the closing arguement
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Ex:
Why are you assuming that God makes some people homosexual? And why are you assuming that a homosexual is locked out of all that is godly and spiritual?
People make choices according to the dictates of their minds and hearts, but God still loves all and sent his Son as the saviour of all mankind. Why don't you just tell her the truth that some Christians are just plain hard hearted to the feelings of others? There are plently of pharisees wearing the cloak of Christianity today and they often don't evidence the love of God or genuine spiritual fruit. Otherwise they would have some compassion and would not be as judgemental. They also sadly enough influence others including young people.
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Shellon
It's my opinion that it's not God who locks them out, it's people who profess that they know what God wants.
Why do some organized places, businesses,etc. not welcome women, people of color?
Ignorance? Fear?
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ex10
Dear Mark
I am not assuming anything.
I am looking for answers.
As far as the answers to your why questions, I don't have to justify myself.
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ex10
Shell, thanks for getting it.
:)-->
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TheInvisibleDan
If indeed "all the Christians" at this school are "shunning" others like this (good lord, where
does she go to school?) - it sounds like they're being merely "Christians" in name but not in spirit.
But then again, they're kids with a lot to learn and a lifetime ahead of them.
Sounds like a very smart kid for her age, no doubt in no small part to the mother who raised her.
Danny
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Trefor Heywood
Gays of any age often feel shunned and shut out of Christian spirituality.
It leads to themselves rejecting it because of what they see of it.
When it is done by children it is what they have learned from their parents.
" You got to be carefully taught."
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wingnut
There are always groups formed and they usually shun each other or at least rival groups. Wasn't any different when we were in school, way back in the day.
I never allowed labels to separate me from friends, yet as time went on many friends separated from me because I didn't fit their label. Mexican friends that I'd known since first grade slowly slipped away and associated strictly with other Mexicans. Other friends became hard core jocks, some became hard core freaks.
Each group claimed other groups shunned them, but yet they shunned the other groups as well. If you were to fit into a group you had to cut off associations with the other group. It always boiled down to if you really wanted to fit in, you had to be one of "them". Never at first, but always there would come a time a decision had to be made.
Are the new friends, or more appropriately new group as some of these friends may have been around for years and wondered over, are they worth your other friends? The advice I always gave my sons was to be themselves and allow the others to choose if they wanted some sort of label to dictate friendship.
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Cindy!
In middle and high school, the term being used by kids to express that something is bad, unpopular, boring, wrong style, etc... is "gay"
I don't allow it in my classroom and when my students ask why, I tell them that it is a phrase born of ignorance and encouraged by fear and the same kind of no-brain thinking that civil rights was about. (and kids today think racial prejudice is 'stupid')
If/when MOST people meet/become friends with someone who is gay, they realize that all the cr*p family, church, or whomever told them is based on nothing real.
Ex, tell your very bright young lady that it is the same thing as being against having purple hair and making it part of your religion because you don't like it, are a bit afraid of it (maybe because you're not sure you DON'T want purple hair) and you decide to play god and treat anyone with purple hair as a sinner going to hell.
Ain't God's fault when people act like fools. A phrase that goes around in my mind when I see those who lack tolerance and stick to fundamentalist dogma is: "Lord, save me from your followers."
I always have to remember that there are many more people who don't act like they live in an Arthur Miller play.
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outofdafog
Nowadays, children tend to be more tolerant than back when we were teens. I believe they are more tolerant because they have been raised in a culture where being gay and/or being different is more acceptable. This probably doesn't wash with some parts of the country and with some right wing conservative groups. Probably is different in different parts of the country.
My child is 15 and gay and the other day was walking down the hall, and a couple of girls called her a dyke as she passed them. This doesn't appear to be the norm though at her school and we live in a rural town and the school she attended before was even smaller and more rural than this one. She has always had alot of friends because the kids tend to look at her personality more so than her sexual preference.
I can only speak to our experience.
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Jbarrax
My two cents' worth.
God does not make people homosexual. Human weakness and Satanic predation do that. Homosexuals can and do get delivered by the way. As much as the gay rights movement would like to bury this truth it has been documented. People aren't born gay. They either choose it or are coerced and pulled into it; often by a combination of lust, frustration, alchohol and drugs--and spirits. It's a mean hustle for sure, but it's still a hustle. Alchohol and drug abuse are much higher in the gay community than in straight society. Partly, imho, because that's how many of them got pulled into it and partly because it dulls the conscience.
The Christians who shun "gays" are not necessarily ignorant or hard-hearted. They're just fundamentalists. They shun gays because they believe the Bible, which clearly teaches that homosexuality is a particularly objectionable sin in the eyes of God. Fundamentalist Christians do not like the cultural push to take something that the Bible calls an "abomination" and turn it into an accepted lifestyle. We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is a natural or unnatural state--and we have--but the bottom line is, many people still accept the Bible as truth. And that means they cannot accept gays as normal healthy people. The only honest way to criticize these people is to prove that the Bible is wrong and cannot be trusted.
By the way, equating gay rights with civil rights offends a great many African Americans, myself included. It's not the same thing. As I've already said the notion that people are born gay, is not universally accepted and has not been proven. Personally I think it's malarkety. Besides not being a natural state, homosexuality is not the same as race or ethnicity because it can easily be hidden. Gay people can and mostly do, hide that aspect of their lives in order to fit in and excel. People are definitely born black, Asian, Hispanic etc. And most blacks cannot hide that ancestry. Some can "pass", most cannot. I have to deal almost everyday on some level with the issue of whether the predominately white society around me judges me based on my skin color. When I walk down the street, I KNOW there are people with whom I share that street who automatically think less of me because I'm a black male. There is no "closet" I can go into or come out of at will.
A black homosexual can be delivered from homosexuality, but he'll still be black.
Peace
JerryB
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Mister P-Mosh
Does your church speak out against homosexuality or something other than just the kids at her school? If your church isn't viciously anti-homosexual then I would point that out in contrast with the kids at her school. If your church leaders do openly and repeatedly focus on homosexuality more often than you think they should, then perhaps you should point out that they are just men interpreting the Bible and focusing on the things that are important to them, and that it's ok to disagree with them as they are not infallible.
You should definitely mention that fact to her, she will appreciate it.
That question is actually very similar to one that I've always had that helped me become an atheist.
If God is all-good, all-knowing, exists outside of time, and all-powerful, then he is responsible for everything that happens. I don't see how any real personal responsibility could exist in a world where the God that made us and everything else would have known ahead of time that we would sin, and that things like death would come to exist because of the shortcomings he programmed into us.
In effect, the way I see it, there can be no biblical God if he made us imperfect, because that would either be non-loving or flat out evil, by the standards he supposedly created. If there were a God, then why would he create a child molester and create children that are vulnerable to be murdered and raped by him? Why would a loving God have created Hitler, knowing full well that he would be responsible for the grisly murders of millions?
Sorry that I can't say that I found any real answer in the years that I've had this question as well, but I do think it's good that you care enough about your daughter and that she is comfortable enough to ask you. I can't say that I ever had the same opportunity having grown up in TWI.
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oldiesman
Namecalling is out. Gays shouldn't be called dykes and fags, and Christians shouldn't be called bigots and homophobes.
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outofdafog
Jabarrax:
HOLY POPE BATMAN, I guess I need to hire me an exorcist to exercise them demons out of her.
Did you know that Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexuality, but because of inhospitality.......?
Hmmm........
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Steve!
If Jesus Christ could find it in his heart to accept prostitutes, tax collectors, and murderers, who am I to go around pointing fingers and screaming?
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Trefor Heywood
Don't you think that gay people get offended when people like J Barrax express their opinions?
There are many documentated case of "false" deliveries too, there is even an ex ex-gay movement. The Bible is down to how it is translated and interpreted and should also be viewed by the conditions and society of its times.
It's been used to justify many things including how black people were treated by "Bible believing Christians." Maybe it's easier to hide than skin colour, but one is still the same personal situation and dealing with prejudice.
There should be no need for closets except for storing clothes.
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J0nny Ling0
Jbarrax said;
Ya know, I agree with this. Many Christian people actually believe that the Bible is God's will for man. And this "will for man" contains edicts that are contrary to the "gay doctrine" that being gay is natural, and that "one is born that way". Therefore, it is only logical that one who believes that the Bible is The Word of God, would take offense to the current "cultural push" that being gay is natural, and that is should be embraced by all in the name of Tolerance and Diversity.
For instance: My son's highschool, Juneau Douglas High, has a particularly large amount of gay girls attending. Juneau, Alaska is well known for a large population of lesbians btw. Now, my son Kianu, 18, knows numerous gay chicks, and hangs with them on many an occasion (within his circle of friends), and treats them respectfully. He does not agree with their lifestyle, but he is kind but prefers not to discuss the "gay issue" with them, because he knows that it will end in a disagreement. He disagrees with the lifestyle because of his biblical beliefs. But he is no "perfect Christian" himself, engages in partying at times, and as far as I can tell is fairly sexually active. He's eighteen and handsome as hell.
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But what he does really resent about the gay scene is their constant "cultural push" as JBarrax put it. Last week, the High School promoted homosexuality by proclaiming last wednesday as a "day of silence" in order to honor our fellow gay students. He asked the principle directly if this day was supposed to be a thing in order to honor AIDS victims, but she said; "No, it is a day to honor gay people".
Apparently, people who were to show their support for gays were to wear a certin color ribbon on their chests, one for lesbians, and one for gay guys, and that everyone in school was to be quiet all day and not to talk. A day of silence.
Well, my son took exception to this. He always takes his (my) guitar to school, and during one of his free periods, sits in the hall and plays and sings with his friends. And, he likes to talk and be funny. And so, this is exactly what he did on that State sponsored "gay day".
And of course, many lesbian chicks were giving he and his friends the finger throughout the day (My! What Tolerance!), and one female teacher took them aside and gave them a "talking to" about "Tolerance" and "Diversity", to which he and his friends responded with their "right to free speech", and that it was their constitutional right to disagree with the school's effort to promote respect for something they didn't believe in.
And so, with respect Ex 10, I do believe that this "cultural push" that JBarrax mentioned, and that I have illustrated with a very recent and close to home event is one reason that many Christian people have a hard time with being tolerant towards this lifestyle.
And remember, these kids are very young, and definitely do not know what it means (many times) to walk in the love of God as young Christian people.
I will also say that there a lot of straight kids in my sons high school who are definitely NOT Christians, who take exception to being told that "gay is ok", due to what they perceive to be the "unnaturalness" of homosexuality". I don't think that any group will ever be able to convince kids that homosexuality is not something to be made fun of...
Christian people (many of them) believe that the Bible is God's Word, as I do, and therefore, cannot accept this lifestyle as normal and ok. This is Our Belief (on this subject), and therefore will be contrasting to those who are trying to push on our society that this lifestyle should "be embraced by all". It is my opinion that they may embrace this lifestyle if they wish, and take part in it if they wish, for we live in a free country. But it is also my belief that their lifestyle will bring damage to themselves, because it is contrary to God's Word. Just like my son's "quasi-partying lifestyle" will bring damage to himself if he doesn't "cool his jets"...
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OnionEater
Right on Shellon
Every time I hear a statement like " gawds word says" I want to puke.
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Galen
ex10:
“Reason being, she has some gay friends. She says, she can't understand why all the Christians shun the gay kids at school.”
Because many of them believe that homosexuality is a sin.
“She says, if God is love, then why would he make some people homosexual, and then totally lock them out of any kind of Christian spirituality?”
I must point out that you just made the statement that G-d makes people homosexual.
Trefor-
“Gays of any age often feel shunned and shut out of Christian spirituality.”
I think that you are speaking from your experiences and what you saw as a teenager, Whereas today it is different. Truly I dont mean to offend you, sir. But today things are different.
:-)
Jbarrax-
“God does not make people homosexual.”
I agree.
“… Human weakness and Satanic predation do that. Homosexuals can and do get delivered by the way. As much as the gay rights movement would like to bury this truth it has been documented. …”
This is my understanding of the situation.
There are many things that people need to be delivered from, and unfortunately many times some of them will make efforts to get deliverance, but it may or may not come for them. Why? I don’t know, I would guess that a part of the ‘human-condition’ includes that sometimes the thing we most want to be delivered from is the thing that eludes us the most.
“The Christians who shun "gays" are not necessarily ignorant or hard-hearted. They're just fundamentalists."
But 'love' wouldn't hurt them either.
"... They shun gays because they believe the Bible, which clearly teaches that homosexuality is a particularly objectionable sin in the eyes of God. Fundamentalist Christians do not like the cultural push to take something that the Bible calls an "abomination" and turn it into an accepted lifestyle. We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is a natural or unnatural state--and we have--but the bottom line is, many people still accept the Bible as truth. And that means they cannot accept gays as normal healthy people. The only honest way to criticize these people is to prove that the Bible is wrong and cannot be trusted.”
While I agree with this statement; I add:
When Jesus taught his jewish followers: “... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ...” I think the example for us is that we should NOT be casting stones. Homosexual behavior is still a sin, but so is the natural state of all men, we can all be delivered and we need to be loving and serving one another. Not focusing on who to shun. We are all sinners, before we were born again.
Granted at the same time, we have been given guidelines on who is acceptable for our leadership, and clearly anyone walking in the paths of sinful ways should never be leaders within the church.
“By the way, equating gay rights with civil rights offends a great many African Americans, myself included. It's not the same thing. .... ”
I agree.
One of our sons is currently attending High-school and I coach fencing there. I see a lot of teens acting out homosexually there. Some kids have approached Matthew and even told him that they can not be his friends because they are homosexual. One girl [Angelina] was hanging out with Matthew and had even came to our home numerous times, when Matt expressed interest in another girl, suddenly Angelina told him that she could no longer hang around Matthew because she [Angelina] is Bi-Sexual. ??? Anyway, these are teens, and teens are into clicks and groups.
Right now it does seem that openly proclaiming yourself to be Homo-sexual or even Bi-sexual is a fad and done for popularity. There may well be the occasional teen who does not like the "queers", but that is just their way of separating into groups. Over-all Proclaiming yourself as such seems to be a common method of gaining popularity among others.
I have seen a lot of teens ‘coupling’ as boy-girl, and girl-girl; holding each other, kissing, etc. I keep telling them that "fencing-time" is not "tonsil hockey time". [they usually look at me funny]
It is common today for these kids to be acting out sexually and apparently to be experimenting. From what we were taught by the Social-Services in getting our Foster-License, It is very common for children to begin acting out, expressing themselves and to experiment with their own sexuality beginning at 12 years old. By the time they get 15-17 their thick into it.
Upon my retirement from the US Navy, I was offered a job where the Navy would certify me as a High-School teacher and pay my salary to go into any High-School in America and to start-up a NJ-ROTC program. [All 20+ year retirees are offered this by the way, it is promoted as a great method of stepping into civilian life by picking any community and entering that community as a High-School teacher].
This High-school that Matthew attends, is filled everyday with young girls who look, dress and act like street-walking prostitutes. I only go there twice a week to coach fencing, and I am amazed at how many of these girls try to come-on to me. I am so glad that I chose not to accept a position as a teacher there.
This is our young society today.
:-)
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satori001
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Presumably, He created the spiritual realm as well.
I believe He also created "free will."
Therefore, either God made an imperfect world, or He made a world full of imperfect creatures, and gave them the wherewithal to behave imperfectly, and to suffer the consequences.
Homosexuality is a dysfunction of Nature. Sexual desire is the combined result of genetic, neurological, hormonal, environmental and behavioral "imprints" each of us receives from conception forward. Or so you'd think. If you want to add "spiritual," you won't get any argument from me, but that is neither measurable, nor provable. The others, in some degree, are. Yet I wonder why it isn't just "hard-wired" into us. Why is this complex collaboration of independent factors, so susceptible to variation, necessary to define our sexual inclinations? Maybe it's just to keep things interesting.
Human beings are, ourselves, a dysfunction of Nature also. The capacity to reason is not found anywhere (else) in Nature. It is only in man (and rare enough in man). Therefore we are genetic mutations, probably of the far more "functional" ape family. In this respect, homosexuality is a subset of the dysfunction called "humanity."
Our more functional (instinctive) side is the collective impulse. We are driven to congregate, to gather and organize. The organizing principle throughout Nature is our commonality. Ducks flock and sheep herd, but you don't see ducks cohabiting with sheep.
The other side of the commonality coin is differentiation, also known as, discrimination. It is natural to discriminate. It is natural to shun those who are different, and to embrace those who are the same... er, unless you're talking about sex, when it is "natural" to embrace our opposites. (I think "complement" is a better term than "opposite" when referring to the sexes, personally. Male and female are one another's complement -not compliment-, in that they complete one another in Nature's "plan." True, they "oppose" one another often enough, but only as part of finding their best complements.)
Look at any community and you will see both principles at work. Gays congregate. There is a "gay community." But look closer at their "community" and there are divisions and subdivisions and sub-sub-divisions. Look at churches. Clubs. Any organization. The us/them principle is alive and well, within and without.
Rather than saying "we must never discriminate," which is as realistic as saying "we must never eliminate," we should seek wise ground rules for discrimination, or differentiation.
We must have the right to include, AND to exclude, because they are each an essential part of our nature. Our capacity to reason, and our inclusive side, should teach us to properly limit the exclusive side, without repressing it in unhealthy ways.
As for Christians, they're just another tribe, practicing inclusion and exclusion, like gays and communists and Catholics and Republicans and cultists and sports fans and...
To get along, we must learn to live both with, and without, each other.
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Jbarrax
Well said Satori001
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satori001
Thanks. FYI, I've made a few additions and edits since your post for clarification.
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herbiejuan
I'm pretty sure there is a difference between a teenagers group behavior and what he or she (or it) really thinks. Most groups have Alpha n Beta leaders who are usually the ones dictating (to an extent) group thought the rest just go along with it.
I'm right there with your kids as they leave home and go to college and believe me I've seen hardened attitudes towards alot of things change as they become exposed to new ideas and learn abit of their own humanity and weaknessess.
In terms of the religious right, well I went to a pretty fundamentalist church for a few years and found them to have the same sins as everybody else. This particular church however was having a difficult time admitting it...
I think, what it boils down to, is we are afraid of what we see in the mirror.
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herbiejuan
Now I am gonna offer a bit of advice, (fancy that)
Yer daughter COULD have a chat with a more moderate christian of the teasing group and ask a little about Gods plan for the sinner and a
Christians responsability in carrying that out. I'd guess, if she sorta led the conversation she could get the person talking about how great Gods love is and how it is for everybody n how it's his/her/its resonsability to carry the message to others and show 'em God's love. In which case...she's got 'em where she want's em
;)--> and just needs to move in for the closing arguement
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LG
People aren't born fundamentalist. They either choose it or are coerced and pulled into it.
We can argue all day about whether fundamentalism is a natural or unnatural state.Link to comment
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