"We do a grave dis-service to our children when we back them up when they are wrong and punish the teachers for trying to control their classrooms. "
Agreed. However, we also do a grave dis-service to our children when we fail to back them up when they are right. So it becomes a very difficult situation for a parent who cannot be present to witness what is actually occuring. The best we can do is make decisions based on what we know about our children, their teacher, and the situation. Sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we don't. In a world that is becoming increasingly hazardous to our children, because we continue to allow perverts and violent criminals out the streets, and some of these people make it into our school systems as well - I have to base my judgements on what I know of my child.
Where my children attend school now, if there is a disciplinary problem that the teacher cannot handle (due to laws or school policy) the child is sent to the principal's office. If the offense is serious enough the parents are contacted. If necessary - there is detention, suspension, and expulsion. If none of that gets the parent's attention - beating the child or handcuffing a five year old, is not likely to help. Seems to me that would be the point when contacting protective services might be warranted. In this state - if you do not make your child attend school, the parents are fined.
"Additional facts about the case:
Not the first time the police have been called on this child at school.
Mother under eviction.
Does anybody feel that there are probably alot of problems at home that would make this child act out like this. I do."
Quite possibly. But I still fail to see how handcuffing a five year old will help. Additionally, the question that stands out in my mind is, if this child has had so many problems in the past why has she not been assessed? Why not suspend her or expell her?
Despite the laws which make discipling a child in school more difficult in some cases, there are options which would be far less traumatic than handcuffing a five year old.
As for the police being called in the past, it may explain why mom was so quick to find or already had an attorney.
Additionally, the eviction does indicate problems at home - but in this day an age does not necessitate neglect. Maybe mom lost her job to one oversees, maybe dad stopped paying child support. We still don't know enough. However, I would be very interested in knowing where you got your information, because this case definitely has my interest and I would like to find out more about it.
I was shocked to find out recently that there is a form at my daughter's public elementary school that I "can" sign if I want the principal to "paddle" my child during the school day should they deem it necessary.
We just moved last summer from FL where it's really out of style to spank kids at all. Now we live in MO and I can authorize the school principal to paddle my kid?!? Feels like the Twilight Zone...
I'm presently learning about ADD and ADHD from some very close friends and it's no picnic to deal with. I don't pretend to know what's going on with that little girl or what's the best way to handle her. All I know is that what I saw on the news is not what I know to be normal 5-year-old behavior. My prayers are with that little girl and whoever is attempting to deal with her.
This is another question. Should teachers and administrators spend an hour or hours trying to persuade a child to behave. What about all the other children that are there? It seems that the troublemakers get all the attention and children who are acting correctly get very little. Since it appears that teachers aren't allowed to discipline, then maybe they'll have to have padded little kiddie jails. They can hang out there till their parents come. Then at least the teachers and other children can be safe. I know that this sounds extreme, but what else can teachers do? They have very little rights. Teachers have to teach so much info. and if the kids don't get all the info. fairly quickly, then the teacher is at fault. If the teacher spends all his/her time disciplining, then no one gets educated.
It's unfortunate that this child got so totally out of control in the first place.
My husband, who certainly is no expert, but IS a teacher and a highly qualified one at that, says that all of his students who have behavior problems are from a troubled home environment, usually without a mom and dad who are living together and have a good marriage. That said, I do realize that there are lots of special needs kids with ADD, ADHD, ODD, and other problems who need special discipline methods and medication and all sorts of special attention. Unfortunately, No Child Left Behind places many of these kids in classroom situations they can't handle.
I would not be happy if my child were handcuffed by the police. And when our son was 8 and 9 years old, he did get almost that out of control on occasions, at least at home. The only thing to do was give him a dose of Ritalin and put him in a quiet dark room in bed until he could get a little control with the drug's help.
I do think a five-year-old could really hurt someone, especially if s/he picked up a weapon, like a pair of scissors or a ruler or a stapler to hit with, or bit, or kicked (lots of 5 year olds know exactly where to hit or kick to do the most damage.)
The teachers aren't always the bad guys. I thought the assistant principal or aide or whoever that was showed great restraint.
Most police carry soft restraints for people who are whacked out, I'm not sure if they have child size with them so maybe not an option, but media wise it sure would soften things, no pun intended. Mike
I agree that suspension and expulsion do not get a child's attention (detention can if it is done properly). But it will often get the attention of the parent who has to take the day off work to take care of the child.
Here's some interesting information on special education in public schools . . . .
Amid Affluence, a Struggle Over Special Education [Exerpts]
By ALISON LEIGH COWAN
Published: April 24, 2005
"The sign outside Westport should say: 'Don't Move Here. We Don't Take Care of Special Ed,' " said Stanley Alintoff, a parent who said he has spent more than $100,000 challenging Westport's decision to revoke special accommodations his daughter was receiving because of a digestive disorder. [Hmmmm perhaps the girl shouldn't be allowed to have a regular education seen as how her awful parents allowed her to be born with a digestive disorder]
With an estimated 5.7 million children in the United States qualifying for special education, similar struggles are playing out around the country. Federal laws aimed at protecting the disabled entitle those who qualify to a free and "appropriate" education tailored to their needs. But the definition of "appropriate" differs from town to town, leaving much to quarrel about...
In Calaveras County, Calif., the Bret Harte Union High School District fought so hard to block the claims of a student that Judge Oliver W. Wanger of United States District Court took 83 pages to berate the district's "hard-line position" and its law firm for "willfully and vexatiously" dragging out the case so long that the former student is now 24...
While the federal government created the special education entitlement, and some states outside New York, New Jersey and Connecticut enacted stricter laws of their own, Congress and state legislatures have failed to provide all the funding. [And that is HUGE part of the problem - you cannot expect schools and teachers to perform a task and NOT give them the tools needed to do so.].....
Coming from Warren, N.J., where, he said, accommodations were granted without fuss, Mr. Blittstein said that Westport's harder line could cost children their shot at an education. "They have seemingly endless resources to just wear you down, and my kid will be out of the school system in a year," he said.
But some longtime residents of Westport said that the town's attitude toward children with special needs has shifted from the days when it opened Stepping Stones, a preschool program conceived with the disabled in mind.
"The focus of the administration changed," said Richard C. Elliott, an adjunct professor of education at Argosy University in Sarasota, Fla., who spent 30 years as a teacher and administrator in the Westport system. "It changed from asking the question, 'What's best for the child?' to asking, 'What is our minimal requirement under the law?' " . . .
"At school board meetings and in interviews, many parents faulted Dr. Landon, and the town's competitive culture. "Elliott Landon does not get kudos for how many special ed kids he teaches multiplication tables to," said Valerie Spellman, the mother of two autistic children, who moved her family out of the district last year. "He gets kudos for how many kids he gets into Ivy League schools." . . .
"Parents and some members of Westport's Board of Finance point out that Ms. Gilchrest's analysis places no value on lost staff time or on the cost to society of failing those children. Critics also have trouble grasping why the district fights tooth and nail in situations where giving in would cost little. Some of the fiercest fights, they said, involve requests for extra time on tests or early dismissal so children can attend enrichment programs at parents' expense."
What continues to jump out at me is that this little girl is trying to get away from the assistant principal. The AP keeps touching her, usually gently but in an attempt to physically direct her, and the girl is trying to get away. At one point she is standing calmly in front of what looks to be a filing cabinet, not doing anything wrong - and again the AP takes her by the shoulders and tries to physically direct her elsewhere.
According to the news article, the little girl has only acted out this way with the AP, and not other teachers. The mother repeatedly asked that the AP NOT be the one to handle her daughter and the school wouldn't listen. The mother also tried to transfer her daughter to another school, but was not allowed to do so. This doesn't sound to me like a mom who just doesn't care. Again, most parents who don't care enough to discipline their children, also don't care enough to fight the school over how they handle the child.
Rev. Al Sharpton is on his way to Florida to do his own investigation.
It does somehow seem that the AP is almost intent on directing this child. For over 20-25 minutes or so the tape is running until someone else gets there. I just don't get it.
Well here is what I know from my experiences with my own son - which may be entirely different from that of this little girl, but also may not.
If he is upset and having a difficult time controlling himself, the LAST thing you want to do is touch him, cause it will push him right over the edge into totally out of control. If you can get on top of things before he totally loses it, the best thing you can do is get him to someplace quiet and let him calm himself down. Usually this involves giving him some say in location.
As he has grown older, he is getting better at telling me "I'm getting really angry" and then going off to his room to be by himself for a while. If he does this, I know I need to back off and pick up with things again later when he is calm. But at 5 he was not at all capable of communicating those things and I had to learn to read his cues and respond accordingly.
This is not tolerating bad behavior - there were always consequences for that. It is an issue of understanding the underlying problem and responding accordingly. Knowing what battles to pick and WHEN to pick them.
From watching the video - it seems every time the girl starting to get herself under control again the AP starts touching her and redirecting her. The girl isn't lashing out in order to behave badly - she is trying to make the AP stop touching her - she is climbing all over the furniture to get away from the AP and it is only after it comes apparent to not only the viewer, but the child as well, that this woman is not going to leave her alone, that she starts hitting the AP.
Whether she is trying to get away from the AP or just being a brat, she is still out of control. I think the big question these days is who gets to make the decision, the kid or the adult? Usually, unfortunately, it's the kid. "I do not want you touching me, and therefore I will "act out" (read disobey) until you submit to my will". If the AP wanted the kid to go across the room and sit down in a certain chair or whatever, the kid needed to obey.
I have actually offered to come to a school where my child was "acting out," take him across the street where he was not on school property, and whup his little a$$ until he decided to obey. They never called me but since I made the offer right in front of him, it wasn't necessary.
The drugs probably helped. But we would never facilitate his disobedience. If I had an issue with a teacher/principal he would never have known about it, because he was supposed to obey his teachers and the parent and the teacher having an issue that the child knows about simply encourages the child to act out.
Interesting, when moms stayed home to raise the kids, and the kids would get a smack on the bum if they disobeyed (that's what they called it back then) there were fewer discipline problems in the schools and fewer drugs to hand out, fewer diagnoses of behavior disorders, and, not coincidentally, better educated kids.
I am glad this is a free country and I am free to raise my child as I see fit.
Water Garden, ever get angry and walk away from an argument with your spouse because you needed a few minutes to calm down? How would you feel if your spouse continued to follow you around talking to you, touching you, trying to prevent you from walking away and taking that few minutes to calm down?
I have been in that position and I know I felt like decking my spouse. Now I didn't do it, because I am an adult and I have more wisdom and a better ability to control myself than a five year old. But I can't help but wonder why one would exepct a 5 year with less wisdom and self control old to feel differently or behave better than we would.
I will never teach my kids they have to blindly obey someone in a position of authority. Instead I teach them when, where, how and under what circumstances they need to obey a person in authority. Likewise, I would never teach them another person has a right to touch them when they don't want to be touched. I want my children to grow up understanding they have a right to set certain boundaries for themselves and maintain those boundaries.
"If I had an issue with a teacher/principal he would never have known about it, because he was supposed to obey his teachers and the parent and the teacher having an issue that the child knows about simply encourages the child to act out."
When things come up with my kids at school - we discuss them. They know when I think they were wrong, and likewise they know that I will go to bat for them when I think they are right. An example that comes to mind is bathroom breaks. The school policy is that the teachers are not allowed to tell a child "no" when they have to go to the bathroom. This came up with my 8 yr old, who was humiliated to no end after he wet his pants because a teacher refused to allow him to use the bathroom. I took the issue up with the principal, with his full knowledge. He is not afraid to tell the teacher that the teacher is breaking school policy by refusing to let him use the bathroom and he has my full support in that. The teacher also knows, if my son is playing around when he is supposed to be using the bathroom, he will have my full support in discipling my son for his misbehavior. That maintains boundaries and builds trust and confidence between me and my children.
"Interesting, when moms stayed home to raise the kids, and the kids would get a smack on the bum if they disobeyed (that's what they called it back then) there were fewer discipline problems in the schools and fewer drugs to hand out, fewer diagnoses of behavior disorders, and, not coincidentally, better educated kids."
There were also fewer chemicals in our food and water, less polution in the air, less knowledge of emotional, mental, and neurological disorders, and a smaller population. You cannot say just because when A was so, B was so, therefore A caused B. There are other factors involved which also need to be considered.
So would there be circumstances when you would strongly support your child punching the teacher? See in the circumstance you describe, the CHILD is the one who is making the decision. "No, you are not permitted to touch me. You must not correct me." I will support you if you feel you need to punch, kick, hit or bite your teacher if that person is doing something you don't like."
Do you think it's okay to say, "Little Johnny, your teacher is an a$$ and you don't have to show that person any respect or do anything they say"? If they bother you, just hit them?
"Do you think it's okay to say, "Little Johnny, your teacher is an a$$ and you don't have to show that person any respect or do anything they say"? If they bother you, just hit them?"
Hmm, on one hand it is considered 'wrong' anytime anyone hits anyone else. but ...
We once had a child living with us [he was 7 at the time], and we told him: "that anytime anyone climbs into his bed with him and trys to 'mess' with him, he had our permission to punch and bite, and to scream for us to come help him."
We thought at the time that we were doing 'good', by telling this young and troubled child this advise. As he had complained that his elder brother had been 'messing' with him in bed. Many months later it turned out that the elder brother was a sexual predator and that he was 'messing' with his yougner brother.
We got into terrible trouble with DCF over it, and very nearly lost our license, because of what we told that child.
Today, I truly have no idea of what is appropriate and legal, in the context of personal space and what to tell a child about his ability to defend his space or his own body from being hurt or 'messed' with in a manner that he does not desire.
"So would there be circumstances when you would strongly support your child punching the teacher? "
Yes there would. Though such a circumstance would also require the firing of the teacher for sexual molestation or child abuse.
"See in the circumstance you describe, the CHILD is the one who is making the decision."
The CHILD is always the one who makes the decision about their behavior. I teach my children they are in control of their behavior and responsible for it. Ultimately, we do not control children any more than we can control another adult. What we do is teach a child to control themselves. That can be done in a lot of different ways.
"No, you are not permitted to touch me. You must not correct me." I will support you if you feel you need to punch, kick, hit or bite your teacher if that person is doing something you don't like."
I never said anything like that. But yes, my child has a right to decide a teacher may not touch them. Does my child have a right to punch, kick, hit or bite? yes, and then face the consequences for those actions. However, in addition to dealing with the consequences for the action, I would search for the underlying cause and deal with that as well. Usually by the time a child is 5, IF they have been taught anything about right from wrong - there is an underlying cause, be it emotional, physical, something someone else, did, whatever. That cause at least needs to be discussed so the child can learn a more appropriate way to handle the situation, if nothing else.
"Do you think it's okay to say, "Little Johnny, your teacher is an a$$ and you don't have to show that person any respect or do anything they say"? If they bother you, just hit them?"
Again,no where in my post did I ever say anything so ridiculous. I said I teach my kids, when, where, how, and under what circumstances they must obey. I teach them they have a right to set certain boundaries for themselves and maintain those boundaries. I also teach them how to appropriately maintain those boundaries - in some instances (though very very rare) punching someone (who, say was hurting them) may be an appropriate way to maintain that boundary. Though first and foremost - I teach them walk away or run away whenever you can in such a circumstance.
I'm with you. It's time that children obey those in charge of them. A swat on the bum never hurt anyone. Of course it can be abused. Allowing a child to behave wildly is abuse too.
I have hardly ever had to swat my children. When they were young, they were taught to respect those in charge of them. I certainly do not believe in abusing children. I was abused when I was a kid. Let us deal with things in a common sense and loving way instead of what's politically correct.
A school where the principal still has the right to 'paddle' a kid ? We're selling up and moving there !! I know of a few reports where AD ADHD was diagnosed 'willy nilly' by doctors and Ritalin and other drugs handed out like lollies.
ODD ( oppositional defiance disorder?)Give me a fr....n break, reminds me of one of our twin daughters going through a 'patch' of that when she was little.A wooden hairbrush on her bottom cured her within a day.
Then, when she was 14 going on 15 she met an older boy (who already had one child) and thought he was the bees knees.
Selina and I didn't.That 'ol pickle jar' seemed to be visiting us again.
To cut a long story short,we came home one night,saw the boy with his friends waiting around a corner in a car for her to sneak out.
Josh my oldest boy and myself went out with a golf club.Never saw them again.
My daughter got some 'correction'.I made her sit in a chair for an hour sobbing her eyes out.( this cut my heart too o.k. )
She hated Selina & myself for about three days and then got over it.
Now married to an awesome young man and they have a gorgeous 2 y.o.
Try and reason with a 14 y.o. who is bedazzled by an older sleazebag ?
The CHILD is always the one who makes the decision about their behavior. ... Ultimately, we do not control children any more than we can control another adult.
We can and do control the behavior of both children and adults, in prisons, if necessary.
quote:
But yes, my child has a right to decide a teacher may not touch them.
To a degree, but not absolutely. A child who is hitting, biting, breaking things, or otherwise endangering people or property has given up that right.
I allowed myself to get deterred from my original point by questions that were absolutely ridiculous and out of context entirely from what I had been saying.
"A swat on the bum never hurt anyone"
I am not opposed to using a swat on the butt and have done so on occassion when I felt that was what was required to get my child's attention.
"We can and do control the behavior of both children and adults, in prisons, if necessary."
No, even there we are not controlling them. We are simply limiting their access to our society and to certain items which may be dangerous. They are still ultimately in control of their own behavior.
"But yes, my child has a right to decide a teacher may not touch them.
To a degree, but not absolutely. A child who is hitting, biting, breaking things, or otherwise endangering people or property has given up that right."
I agree and I have had to use a restraining hold on my older son on more than one occassaion as a result. HOWEVER (and this brings me back to the point that I allowed myself to be distracted from by ridiculous questions)
In the video (which I acknowledge still leaves out much information) - the chld does not start hiting until after the assistant principal continues to touch her and direct her. In fact at one point the child very much appeared to be trying to regain her self control, but the AP keeps at her until the child is climbing all over the furniture in an attempt to get away.
So my questions(which remain unanswered) were:
Have you ever gotten angry and walked away from an argument with your spouse because you needed a few minutes to calm down? How would you feel if your spouse continued to follow you around talking to you, touching you, trying to prevent you from walking away and taking that few minutes to calm down?
I have been in that position and I know I felt like decking my spouse. Now I didn't do it, because I am an adult and I have more wisdom and a better ability to control myself than a five year old. But I can't help but wonder why one would exepct a 5 year with less wisdom and self control old to feel differently or behave better than we would.
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Abigail
"We do a grave dis-service to our children when we back them up when they are wrong and punish the teachers for trying to control their classrooms. "
Agreed. However, we also do a grave dis-service to our children when we fail to back them up when they are right. So it becomes a very difficult situation for a parent who cannot be present to witness what is actually occuring. The best we can do is make decisions based on what we know about our children, their teacher, and the situation. Sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we don't. In a world that is becoming increasingly hazardous to our children, because we continue to allow perverts and violent criminals out the streets, and some of these people make it into our school systems as well - I have to base my judgements on what I know of my child.
Where my children attend school now, if there is a disciplinary problem that the teacher cannot handle (due to laws or school policy) the child is sent to the principal's office. If the offense is serious enough the parents are contacted. If necessary - there is detention, suspension, and expulsion. If none of that gets the parent's attention - beating the child or handcuffing a five year old, is not likely to help. Seems to me that would be the point when contacting protective services might be warranted. In this state - if you do not make your child attend school, the parents are fined.
"Additional facts about the case:
Not the first time the police have been called on this child at school.
Mother under eviction.
Does anybody feel that there are probably alot of problems at home that would make this child act out like this. I do."
Quite possibly. But I still fail to see how handcuffing a five year old will help. Additionally, the question that stands out in my mind is, if this child has had so many problems in the past why has she not been assessed? Why not suspend her or expell her?
Despite the laws which make discipling a child in school more difficult in some cases, there are options which would be far less traumatic than handcuffing a five year old.
As for the police being called in the past, it may explain why mom was so quick to find or already had an attorney.
Additionally, the eviction does indicate problems at home - but in this day an age does not necessitate neglect. Maybe mom lost her job to one oversees, maybe dad stopped paying child support. We still don't know enough. However, I would be very interested in knowing where you got your information, because this case definitely has my interest and I would like to find out more about it.
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outofdafog
Abigail:
I am kind of a news hound. I am always watching Fox News....that's where I have been hearing this stuff.
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bowtwi
I was shocked to find out recently that there is a form at my daughter's public elementary school that I "can" sign if I want the principal to "paddle" my child during the school day should they deem it necessary.
We just moved last summer from FL where it's really out of style to spank kids at all. Now we live in MO and I can authorize the school principal to paddle my kid?!? Feels like the Twilight Zone...
I'm presently learning about ADD and ADHD from some very close friends and it's no picnic to deal with. I don't pretend to know what's going on with that little girl or what's the best way to handle her. All I know is that what I saw on the news is not what I know to be normal 5-year-old behavior. My prayers are with that little girl and whoever is attempting to deal with her.
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gladtobeout
This is another question. Should teachers and administrators spend an hour or hours trying to persuade a child to behave. What about all the other children that are there? It seems that the troublemakers get all the attention and children who are acting correctly get very little. Since it appears that teachers aren't allowed to discipline, then maybe they'll have to have padded little kiddie jails. They can hang out there till their parents come. Then at least the teachers and other children can be safe. I know that this sounds extreme, but what else can teachers do? They have very little rights. Teachers have to teach so much info. and if the kids don't get all the info. fairly quickly, then the teacher is at fault. If the teacher spends all his/her time disciplining, then no one gets educated.
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Watered Garden
It's unfortunate that this child got so totally out of control in the first place.
My husband, who certainly is no expert, but IS a teacher and a highly qualified one at that, says that all of his students who have behavior problems are from a troubled home environment, usually without a mom and dad who are living together and have a good marriage. That said, I do realize that there are lots of special needs kids with ADD, ADHD, ODD, and other problems who need special discipline methods and medication and all sorts of special attention. Unfortunately, No Child Left Behind places many of these kids in classroom situations they can't handle.
I would not be happy if my child were handcuffed by the police. And when our son was 8 and 9 years old, he did get almost that out of control on occasions, at least at home. The only thing to do was give him a dose of Ritalin and put him in a quiet dark room in bed until he could get a little control with the drug's help.
I do think a five-year-old could really hurt someone, especially if s/he picked up a weapon, like a pair of scissors or a ruler or a stapler to hit with, or bit, or kicked (lots of 5 year olds know exactly where to hit or kick to do the most damage.)
The teachers aren't always the bad guys. I thought the assistant principal or aide or whoever that was showed great restraint.
WG
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MikeK
Most police carry soft restraints for people who are whacked out, I'm not sure if they have child size with them so maybe not an option, but media wise it sure would soften things, no pun intended. Mike
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outofdafog
Hey MikeK
Dude, that's a great idea for an invention. Okay I will give you six weeks to patent and then it's mine
;)-->
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Allan
Expulsion, Suspension, Detention, woooohh, I bet that really terrifies some of those kids into submission.
The 'fear of the cane' kept myself and many of my schoolmates pretty close to the 'straight and narrow'.
Without a fear of consequences there is no fear of judgement and without a fear of judgement there is no fear of consequences.
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outofdafog
AMEN Allan....
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Abigail
I agree that suspension and expulsion do not get a child's attention (detention can if it is done properly). But it will often get the attention of the parent who has to take the day off work to take care of the child.
Here's some interesting information on special education in public schools . . . .
Amid Affluence, a Struggle Over Special Education [Exerpts]
By ALISON LEIGH COWAN
Published: April 24, 2005
"The sign outside Westport should say: 'Don't Move Here. We Don't Take Care of Special Ed,' " said Stanley Alintoff, a parent who said he has spent more than $100,000 challenging Westport's decision to revoke special accommodations his daughter was receiving because of a digestive disorder. [Hmmmm perhaps the girl shouldn't be allowed to have a regular education seen as how her awful parents allowed her to be born with a digestive disorder]
With an estimated 5.7 million children in the United States qualifying for special education, similar struggles are playing out around the country. Federal laws aimed at protecting the disabled entitle those who qualify to a free and "appropriate" education tailored to their needs. But the definition of "appropriate" differs from town to town, leaving much to quarrel about...
In Calaveras County, Calif., the Bret Harte Union High School District fought so hard to block the claims of a student that Judge Oliver W. Wanger of United States District Court took 83 pages to berate the district's "hard-line position" and its law firm for "willfully and vexatiously" dragging out the case so long that the former student is now 24...
While the federal government created the special education entitlement, and some states outside New York, New Jersey and Connecticut enacted stricter laws of their own, Congress and state legislatures have failed to provide all the funding. [And that is HUGE part of the problem - you cannot expect schools and teachers to perform a task and NOT give them the tools needed to do so.].....
Coming from Warren, N.J., where, he said, accommodations were granted without fuss, Mr. Blittstein said that Westport's harder line could cost children their shot at an education. "They have seemingly endless resources to just wear you down, and my kid will be out of the school system in a year," he said.
But some longtime residents of Westport said that the town's attitude toward children with special needs has shifted from the days when it opened Stepping Stones, a preschool program conceived with the disabled in mind.
"The focus of the administration changed," said Richard C. Elliott, an adjunct professor of education at Argosy University in Sarasota, Fla., who spent 30 years as a teacher and administrator in the Westport system. "It changed from asking the question, 'What's best for the child?' to asking, 'What is our minimal requirement under the law?' " . . .
"At school board meetings and in interviews, many parents faulted Dr. Landon, and the town's competitive culture. "Elliott Landon does not get kudos for how many special ed kids he teaches multiplication tables to," said Valerie Spellman, the mother of two autistic children, who moved her family out of the district last year. "He gets kudos for how many kids he gets into Ivy League schools." . . .
"Parents and some members of Westport's Board of Finance point out that Ms. Gilchrest's analysis places no value on lost staff time or on the cost to society of failing those children. Critics also have trouble grasping why the district fights tooth and nail in situations where giving in would cost little. Some of the fiercest fights, they said, involve requests for extra time on tests or early dismissal so children can attend enrichment programs at parents' expense."
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J0nny Ling0
The principal should have given her the "board of education" (a paddling on her little derrier'),
And then her parents should have taken her home and really whailed on her!
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Abigail
Watched the fox news segment.
What continues to jump out at me is that this little girl is trying to get away from the assistant principal. The AP keeps touching her, usually gently but in an attempt to physically direct her, and the girl is trying to get away. At one point she is standing calmly in front of what looks to be a filing cabinet, not doing anything wrong - and again the AP takes her by the shoulders and tries to physically direct her elsewhere.
According to the news article, the little girl has only acted out this way with the AP, and not other teachers. The mother repeatedly asked that the AP NOT be the one to handle her daughter and the school wouldn't listen. The mother also tried to transfer her daughter to another school, but was not allowed to do so. This doesn't sound to me like a mom who just doesn't care. Again, most parents who don't care enough to discipline their children, also don't care enough to fight the school over how they handle the child.
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outofdafog
Rev. Al Sharpton is on his way to Florida to do his own investigation.
It does somehow seem that the AP is almost intent on directing this child. For over 20-25 minutes or so the tape is running until someone else gets there. I just don't get it.
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Abigail
Well here is what I know from my experiences with my own son - which may be entirely different from that of this little girl, but also may not.
If he is upset and having a difficult time controlling himself, the LAST thing you want to do is touch him, cause it will push him right over the edge into totally out of control. If you can get on top of things before he totally loses it, the best thing you can do is get him to someplace quiet and let him calm himself down. Usually this involves giving him some say in location.
As he has grown older, he is getting better at telling me "I'm getting really angry" and then going off to his room to be by himself for a while. If he does this, I know I need to back off and pick up with things again later when he is calm. But at 5 he was not at all capable of communicating those things and I had to learn to read his cues and respond accordingly.
This is not tolerating bad behavior - there were always consequences for that. It is an issue of understanding the underlying problem and responding accordingly. Knowing what battles to pick and WHEN to pick them.
From watching the video - it seems every time the girl starting to get herself under control again the AP starts touching her and redirecting her. The girl isn't lashing out in order to behave badly - she is trying to make the AP stop touching her - she is climbing all over the furniture to get away from the AP and it is only after it comes apparent to not only the viewer, but the child as well, that this woman is not going to leave her alone, that she starts hitting the AP.
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Watered Garden
Whether she is trying to get away from the AP or just being a brat, she is still out of control. I think the big question these days is who gets to make the decision, the kid or the adult? Usually, unfortunately, it's the kid. "I do not want you touching me, and therefore I will "act out" (read disobey) until you submit to my will". If the AP wanted the kid to go across the room and sit down in a certain chair or whatever, the kid needed to obey.
I have actually offered to come to a school where my child was "acting out," take him across the street where he was not on school property, and whup his little a$$ until he decided to obey. They never called me but since I made the offer right in front of him, it wasn't necessary.
The drugs probably helped. But we would never facilitate his disobedience. If I had an issue with a teacher/principal he would never have known about it, because he was supposed to obey his teachers and the parent and the teacher having an issue that the child knows about simply encourages the child to act out.
Interesting, when moms stayed home to raise the kids, and the kids would get a smack on the bum if they disobeyed (that's what they called it back then) there were fewer discipline problems in the schools and fewer drugs to hand out, fewer diagnoses of behavior disorders, and, not coincidentally, better educated kids.
WG
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Abigail
I am glad this is a free country and I am free to raise my child as I see fit.
Water Garden, ever get angry and walk away from an argument with your spouse because you needed a few minutes to calm down? How would you feel if your spouse continued to follow you around talking to you, touching you, trying to prevent you from walking away and taking that few minutes to calm down?
I have been in that position and I know I felt like decking my spouse. Now I didn't do it, because I am an adult and I have more wisdom and a better ability to control myself than a five year old. But I can't help but wonder why one would exepct a 5 year with less wisdom and self control old to feel differently or behave better than we would.
I will never teach my kids they have to blindly obey someone in a position of authority. Instead I teach them when, where, how and under what circumstances they need to obey a person in authority. Likewise, I would never teach them another person has a right to touch them when they don't want to be touched. I want my children to grow up understanding they have a right to set certain boundaries for themselves and maintain those boundaries.
"If I had an issue with a teacher/principal he would never have known about it, because he was supposed to obey his teachers and the parent and the teacher having an issue that the child knows about simply encourages the child to act out."
When things come up with my kids at school - we discuss them. They know when I think they were wrong, and likewise they know that I will go to bat for them when I think they are right. An example that comes to mind is bathroom breaks. The school policy is that the teachers are not allowed to tell a child "no" when they have to go to the bathroom. This came up with my 8 yr old, who was humiliated to no end after he wet his pants because a teacher refused to allow him to use the bathroom. I took the issue up with the principal, with his full knowledge. He is not afraid to tell the teacher that the teacher is breaking school policy by refusing to let him use the bathroom and he has my full support in that. The teacher also knows, if my son is playing around when he is supposed to be using the bathroom, he will have my full support in discipling my son for his misbehavior. That maintains boundaries and builds trust and confidence between me and my children.
"Interesting, when moms stayed home to raise the kids, and the kids would get a smack on the bum if they disobeyed (that's what they called it back then) there were fewer discipline problems in the schools and fewer drugs to hand out, fewer diagnoses of behavior disorders, and, not coincidentally, better educated kids."
There were also fewer chemicals in our food and water, less polution in the air, less knowledge of emotional, mental, and neurological disorders, and a smaller population. You cannot say just because when A was so, B was so, therefore A caused B. There are other factors involved which also need to be considered.
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Watered Garden
So would there be circumstances when you would strongly support your child punching the teacher? See in the circumstance you describe, the CHILD is the one who is making the decision. "No, you are not permitted to touch me. You must not correct me." I will support you if you feel you need to punch, kick, hit or bite your teacher if that person is doing something you don't like."
Do you think it's okay to say, "Little Johnny, your teacher is an a$$ and you don't have to show that person any respect or do anything they say"? If they bother you, just hit them?
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Galen
Watered Garden:
"Do you think it's okay to say, "Little Johnny, your teacher is an a$$ and you don't have to show that person any respect or do anything they say"? If they bother you, just hit them?"
Hmm, on one hand it is considered 'wrong' anytime anyone hits anyone else. but ...
We once had a child living with us [he was 7 at the time], and we told him: "that anytime anyone climbs into his bed with him and trys to 'mess' with him, he had our permission to punch and bite, and to scream for us to come help him."
We thought at the time that we were doing 'good', by telling this young and troubled child this advise. As he had complained that his elder brother had been 'messing' with him in bed. Many months later it turned out that the elder brother was a sexual predator and that he was 'messing' with his yougner brother.
We got into terrible trouble with DCF over it, and very nearly lost our license, because of what we told that child.
Today, I truly have no idea of what is appropriate and legal, in the context of personal space and what to tell a child about his ability to defend his space or his own body from being hurt or 'messed' with in a manner that he does not desire.
:-)
Our society is changing very fast.
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sharon
we'll i feel soooooo much better.
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Abigail
"So would there be circumstances when you would strongly support your child punching the teacher? "
Yes there would. Though such a circumstance would also require the firing of the teacher for sexual molestation or child abuse.
"See in the circumstance you describe, the CHILD is the one who is making the decision."
The CHILD is always the one who makes the decision about their behavior. I teach my children they are in control of their behavior and responsible for it. Ultimately, we do not control children any more than we can control another adult. What we do is teach a child to control themselves. That can be done in a lot of different ways.
"No, you are not permitted to touch me. You must not correct me." I will support you if you feel you need to punch, kick, hit or bite your teacher if that person is doing something you don't like."
I never said anything like that. But yes, my child has a right to decide a teacher may not touch them. Does my child have a right to punch, kick, hit or bite? yes, and then face the consequences for those actions. However, in addition to dealing with the consequences for the action, I would search for the underlying cause and deal with that as well. Usually by the time a child is 5, IF they have been taught anything about right from wrong - there is an underlying cause, be it emotional, physical, something someone else, did, whatever. That cause at least needs to be discussed so the child can learn a more appropriate way to handle the situation, if nothing else.
"Do you think it's okay to say, "Little Johnny, your teacher is an a$$ and you don't have to show that person any respect or do anything they say"? If they bother you, just hit them?"
Again,no where in my post did I ever say anything so ridiculous. I said I teach my kids, when, where, how, and under what circumstances they must obey. I teach them they have a right to set certain boundaries for themselves and maintain those boundaries. I also teach them how to appropriately maintain those boundaries - in some instances (though very very rare) punching someone (who, say was hurting them) may be an appropriate way to maintain that boundary. Though first and foremost - I teach them walk away or run away whenever you can in such a circumstance.
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gladtobeout
Watered Garden
I'm with you. It's time that children obey those in charge of them. A swat on the bum never hurt anyone. Of course it can be abused. Allowing a child to behave wildly is abuse too.
I have hardly ever had to swat my children. When they were young, they were taught to respect those in charge of them. I certainly do not believe in abusing children. I was abused when I was a kid. Let us deal with things in a common sense and loving way instead of what's politically correct.
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Allan
A school where the principal still has the right to 'paddle' a kid ? We're selling up and moving there !! I know of a few reports where AD ADHD was diagnosed 'willy nilly' by doctors and Ritalin and other drugs handed out like lollies.
ODD ( oppositional defiance disorder?)Give me a fr....n break, reminds me of one of our twin daughters going through a 'patch' of that when she was little.A wooden hairbrush on her bottom cured her within a day.
Then, when she was 14 going on 15 she met an older boy (who already had one child) and thought he was the bees knees.
Selina and I didn't.That 'ol pickle jar' seemed to be visiting us again.
To cut a long story short,we came home one night,saw the boy with his friends waiting around a corner in a car for her to sneak out.
Josh my oldest boy and myself went out with a golf club.Never saw them again.
My daughter got some 'correction'.I made her sit in a chair for an hour sobbing her eyes out.( this cut my heart too o.k. )
She hated Selina & myself for about three days and then got over it.
Now married to an awesome young man and they have a gorgeous 2 y.o.
Try and reason with a 14 y.o. who is bedazzled by an older sleazebag ?
Let her learn by making her own mistakes ?
Ah,no,not if I can help it.
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LG
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Abigail
I allowed myself to get deterred from my original point by questions that were absolutely ridiculous and out of context entirely from what I had been saying.
"A swat on the bum never hurt anyone"
I am not opposed to using a swat on the butt and have done so on occassion when I felt that was what was required to get my child's attention.
"We can and do control the behavior of both children and adults, in prisons, if necessary."
No, even there we are not controlling them. We are simply limiting their access to our society and to certain items which may be dangerous. They are still ultimately in control of their own behavior.
"But yes, my child has a right to decide a teacher may not touch them.
To a degree, but not absolutely. A child who is hitting, biting, breaking things, or otherwise endangering people or property has given up that right."
I agree and I have had to use a restraining hold on my older son on more than one occassaion as a result. HOWEVER (and this brings me back to the point that I allowed myself to be distracted from by ridiculous questions)
In the video (which I acknowledge still leaves out much information) - the chld does not start hiting until after the assistant principal continues to touch her and direct her. In fact at one point the child very much appeared to be trying to regain her self control, but the AP keeps at her until the child is climbing all over the furniture in an attempt to get away.
So my questions(which remain unanswered) were:
Have you ever gotten angry and walked away from an argument with your spouse because you needed a few minutes to calm down? How would you feel if your spouse continued to follow you around talking to you, touching you, trying to prevent you from walking away and taking that few minutes to calm down?
I have been in that position and I know I felt like decking my spouse. Now I didn't do it, because I am an adult and I have more wisdom and a better ability to control myself than a five year old. But I can't help but wonder why one would exepct a 5 year with less wisdom and self control old to feel differently or behave better than we would.
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