NOt really, but I am guessing most here would disagree with that statement...either because they believe VPW taught some good things, or because they believe VPW didn't teach anything good and didnt have a conscience. But I'll give you a pat on the back for briging it up. Seriously, I am admittedly guessing that a majority of people on GS believe he believed he was teaching the truth, whether they believe he was or not.
Hi. If VPW was everything you claim him to be - and in the proportions that you say, then you are doing a wonderful service. Although, most of what you write is not really "news" here. Maybe you need to get it off your chest - maybe some innies will leave TWI as a result of your posts....
But, please consider the following:
On the other hand, if he was more like George Ar says, then VPW was only of "two-bit" caliber. And if he was actually not superb at his deceptions... then he was leaving trails.... tell-tale signs... then we are left to answer an important question;
If he was a second rate stoodge, why did we "fall" for it? What was at work in us that AIDED the deception?
If I accept your version, then I have little reason to reflect upon what made me susceptible. For I would conclude that he was so masterful, that I could not resist his level of skill.
Regardless of HOW bad he was - there was stuff in me that made me look the other way. And THAT is something I can do something about. As a matter of fact, I believe this to be the case.
I can't do diddly about VPW, now. But, if I had/have an un-resolved "blind-spot" that caused me to waste some very precious years - then I want to do SOMETHING about that.... If there is something in me that has the capacity to cause me to F_Up a good portion of my life - and it is STILL THERE - then I want to find it and deal with it. Focusing on VPW is only PART of the cure.
It takes a while, but sooner or later you realize it doens't really matter at all WHAT VPW believed - Once you get over fixating on what we were taught - you naturally come to a critical question - What do YOU believe? For whatever that is - is having a dramatic affect upon your life AND you can do something about it.
I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your insightful response.
Great advice & great questions. I hope I have sufficiently answered at least some of the hard questions for myself. We all have to do so to recover. Part of my recovery was investigating for myself all of the sources of VPW's plagiarism & the thought reform techniques he employed.
To answer a few of your other welcome concerns:
If I accept your version, then I have little reason to reflect upon what made me susceptible. For I would conclude that he was so masterful, that I could not resist his level of skill.
The explanation I am offering is to be taken in the context of individual susceptibility, & by far and away, for most of us who were deceived into joining the ranks of TWI, the most common mechanism was transient vulerability. Our vulnerability was not necessarily prolonged, but we had the misfortune to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. At this inopportune time, we were subjected to the skills of the Corn Wizard. At most any other time, his appeals, whether by himself or his agents, would likely not have drawn us in.
Most people tend to believe that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable. People like to think that their opinions, values, & ideas are inviolate & totally self-regulated. There is an almost universal aversion to accepting the idea that we ourselves are vulnerable to sophisticated, packaged coersive persuasion. Neither education, age, nor social class protects a person from this false sense of invulnerability.
Essentially everyone is susceptible to the lure of these master exploitative manipulators if they are exposed to them when they are in their state of transient vulnerability. The majority of adolescents and adults in cults come from middle-class backgrounds, are fairly well educated, and are not seriously disturbed prior to joining the cult.
Research indicates that approximately two thirds of those who have joined cults came from normal, functioning families and were demonstrating age-appropriated behaviors around the time that they were deceived into joining a cult. Of the remaining third, only about 5 to 6 percent had major psychological difficulties prior to joining the cult. The remaining portion of the third had diagnosable depressions related to personal loss {e.g., a death in the family, failure to be admitted to a personally preferred university or training program, or a broken romance} or were struggling with age-related sexual & career dilemmas.
Adolescents & young adults are especially prone to stress factor transient vulnerability which evolves when they feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices he or she needs to make, the ambiguity of life at this age, the complexity of the world, and the amount of conflict associated with many aspects of daily life. In addition to facing pressing personal decisions, many adolescents are attempting to come to grips with their overall values, beliefs,and purposes.
Also, many young adults today are overwhelmed by the confusion and apparent coldness of our society: the senseless violence, the rampant homelessness, the lack of perceived meaning, the widespread loss of respect for authority figures, the vast number of unemployed and marginalized, the insecurity and instability of the job market, the loss of family communications, the lessening role of established religions, & the failing sense of community.
Even apart from unsettling socioeconomic conditions and certain relevant dysfunctional family factors, any person who is in a transiently vulnerable state, seeking close companionship and a sense of meaning or in a period of transition or time of loss, is potential f'resh meat' for covert, deceptivecult recruitment.
It is not one type of person who gets enmeshed with cults, but rather a person who has an unfortunate combination of factors occurring nearly simultaneously. Two conditions make an individual especially vulnerable to cultic recruiting: being depressed and being in between important affiliations. We can be especially vulnerable to sophisticated packaged coersive persuasion & social manipulation because of some loss or disappointment that has caused a transiently depressed mood. We are especially prone to cultic 'love bombing' influence when we're not engaged in a meaningful personal relationship, job, education or training program, or some other life involvement.
Transiently vulnerable individuals are lonely, in transition between high school and college, between college and a job or graduate school, traveling away from home, arriving in a new location, recently jilted or divorced, fresh from job loss, feeling overwhelmed about how things have been going, or not knowing what to do next in life. At such times as these, we all (without exception) exhibit a high degree of individual susceptibility and transient vulnerability to sophisticated packaged coersive persuasion. At these times we are more suggestible & more willing than we otherwise would be to take something offered to us without considering that there might be strings of obligation and reciprocity attached.
Sorry for rambling but I wanted you to understand the context in which I feel cultic recruitment deception and continuing cultic reinforcement occur.
If someone who was new to twi/had been invited and was thinking of <BR>attending a meeting,<BR><BR>or someone who was trying to figure out what the organization is all about,<BR><BR>asked you to explain victor paul wierwille,<BR><BR>what would you want to make sure they knew about him?<BR><BR>What was his youth like, his pre-ministry days?<BR>What about his time from college-Vesper Chimes?<BR>All the stuff after that?<BR><BR>What would be relevant if someone was writing a biography on him,<BR>or a "true stories", or whatever?<BR><BR><BR>Let's say you were asked to write a biographical sketch of the man so that<BR>others-who'd never heard of him-could understand him in one read.<BR><BR>What would you write?
Wow, some of you guys have been considering this stuff for quite a while, I'm glad this thread got brought to the front just so that I could read it.
It never ceases to amaze me how someone (Wierwille) that I thought of as a man-of-God was in fact so inept at simple honesty.
If claims are not backed up by the facts then they are b.s. IMO.
Who would want to believe in a God or a supposed man-of-God that was dishonest and stupid, not me. I'd rather be honest about my faults and adjust doctrines boldly when they are found to be lacking.
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Lifted Up
NOt really, but I am guessing most here would disagree with that statement...either because they believe VPW taught some good things, or because they believe VPW didn't teach anything good and didnt have a conscience. But I'll give you a pat on the back for briging it up. Seriously, I am admittedly guessing that a majority of people on GS believe he believed he was teaching the truth, whether they believe he was or not.
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Too Gray Now
jk boe:
Hi. If VPW was everything you claim him to be - and in the proportions that you say, then you are doing a wonderful service. Although, most of what you write is not really "news" here. Maybe you need to get it off your chest - maybe some innies will leave TWI as a result of your posts....
But, please consider the following:
On the other hand, if he was more like George Ar says, then VPW was only of "two-bit" caliber. And if he was actually not superb at his deceptions... then he was leaving trails.... tell-tale signs... then we are left to answer an important question;
If he was a second rate stoodge, why did we "fall" for it? What was at work in us that AIDED the deception?
If I accept your version, then I have little reason to reflect upon what made me susceptible. For I would conclude that he was so masterful, that I could not resist his level of skill.
Regardless of HOW bad he was - there was stuff in me that made me look the other way. And THAT is something I can do something about. As a matter of fact, I believe this to be the case.
I can't do diddly about VPW, now. But, if I had/have an un-resolved "blind-spot" that caused me to waste some very precious years - then I want to do SOMETHING about that.... If there is something in me that has the capacity to cause me to F_Up a good portion of my life - and it is STILL THERE - then I want to find it and deal with it. Focusing on VPW is only PART of the cure.
It takes a while, but sooner or later you realize it doens't really matter at all WHAT VPW believed - Once you get over fixating on what we were taught - you naturally come to a critical question - What do YOU believe? For whatever that is - is having a dramatic affect upon your life AND you can do something about it.
Peace. B)
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jkboehme
TGN,
I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your insightful response.
Great advice & great questions. I hope I have sufficiently answered at least some of the hard questions for myself. We all have to do so to recover. Part of my recovery was investigating for myself all of the sources of VPW's plagiarism & the thought reform techniques he employed.
To answer a few of your other welcome concerns:
The explanation I am offering is to be taken in the context of individual susceptibility, & by far and away, for most of us who were deceived into joining the ranks of TWI, the most common mechanism was transient vulerability. Our vulnerability was not necessarily prolonged, but we had the misfortune to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. At this inopportune time, we were subjected to the skills of the Corn Wizard. At most any other time, his appeals, whether by himself or his agents, would likely not have drawn us in.
Most people tend to believe that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable. People like to think that their opinions, values, & ideas are inviolate & totally self-regulated. There is an almost universal aversion to accepting the idea that we ourselves are vulnerable to sophisticated, packaged coersive persuasion. Neither education, age, nor social class protects a person from this false sense of invulnerability.
Essentially everyone is susceptible to the lure of these master exploitative manipulators if they are exposed to them when they are in their state of transient vulnerability. The majority of adolescents and adults in cults come from middle-class backgrounds, are fairly well educated, and are not seriously disturbed prior to joining the cult.
Research indicates that approximately two thirds of those who have joined cults came from normal, functioning families and were demonstrating age-appropriated behaviors around the time that they were deceived into joining a cult. Of the remaining third, only about 5 to 6 percent had major psychological difficulties prior to joining the cult. The remaining portion of the third had diagnosable depressions related to personal loss {e.g., a death in the family, failure to be admitted to a personally preferred university or training program, or a broken romance} or were struggling with age-related sexual & career dilemmas.
Adolescents & young adults are especially prone to stress factor transient vulnerability which evolves when they feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices he or she needs to make, the ambiguity of life at this age, the complexity of the world, and the amount of conflict associated with many aspects of daily life. In addition to facing pressing personal decisions, many adolescents are attempting to come to grips with their overall values, beliefs,and purposes.
Also, many young adults today are overwhelmed by the confusion and apparent coldness of our society: the senseless violence, the rampant homelessness, the lack of perceived meaning, the widespread loss of respect for authority figures, the vast number of unemployed and marginalized, the insecurity and instability of the job market, the loss of family communications, the lessening role of established religions, & the failing sense of community.
Even apart from unsettling socioeconomic conditions and certain relevant dysfunctional family factors, any person who is in a transiently vulnerable state, seeking close companionship and a sense of meaning or in a period of transition or time of loss, is potential f'resh meat' for covert, deceptivecult recruitment.
It is not one type of person who gets enmeshed with cults, but rather a person who has an unfortunate combination of factors occurring nearly simultaneously. Two conditions make an individual especially vulnerable to cultic recruiting: being depressed and being in between important affiliations. We can be especially vulnerable to sophisticated packaged coersive persuasion & social manipulation because of some loss or disappointment that has caused a transiently depressed mood. We are especially prone to cultic 'love bombing' influence when we're not engaged in a meaningful personal relationship, job, education or training program, or some other life involvement.
Transiently vulnerable individuals are lonely, in transition between high school and college, between college and a job or graduate school, traveling away from home, arriving in a new location, recently jilted or divorced, fresh from job loss, feeling overwhelmed about how things have been going, or not knowing what to do next in life. At such times as these, we all (without exception) exhibit a high degree of individual susceptibility and transient vulnerability to sophisticated packaged coersive persuasion. At these times we are more suggestible & more willing than we otherwise would be to take something offered to us without considering that there might be strings of obligation and reciprocity attached.
Sorry for rambling but I wanted you to understand the context in which I feel cultic recruitment deception and continuing cultic reinforcement occur.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
Hm.
I didn't find the post I was LOOKING for...
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WordWolf
In 1985,
vpw died of metastatic melanoma of the liver and ocular melanoma.
In plain English, that's cancer of the liver and cancer of the eye.
A physician or atheist would say this was obviously due to his continuous
drinking of alcoholic beverages (which damaged his liver and weakened
his immune system to a degree)
and his continuous smoking of cigars and cigarettes
(which exposed him to large amounts of KNOWN carcinogens
over long periods of time.)
vpw taught in his Advanced class that cancer was the direct
result of demonic activity.
His rationale for this was that cancer supposedly has a life of its own,
so it must be the result of a separate life-form.
vpw ALSO taught that people who did not receive deliverance from
disease were FAILING in their believing, since they could receive
deliverance at any time. Thus, people who contracted cancer had
been the successful target of a "devil-spirit",
and people who did not overcome cancer had failed in their
believing.
vpw put forth-and encouraged others to put forth-
that he was some sort of super-believer,
exceptional as a Christian and in his believing,
in fact, in a category all by himself.
(Well, him, Adam and Jesus.)
Thus, he was "hoist on his own petard".
Since, according to his own teachings, he had to be spiritually inferior
to suffer from cancer, he could acknowledge he was teaching error-
which would shatter his supposed infallibility as a mouthpiece for God-
or admit he was spiritually inferior-
which would shatter his supposed infallibility as a mouthpiece for God.
As for himself, he seems to have convinced himself to a
degree that his doctrines were actually right, and he also WAS
a super-believer.
He claimed in private that, before this, he'd never been sick a day
in his ENTIRE LIFE,
and, on his deathbed, he wondered what mistake he was making
that was interfering with his believing to destroy the cancer.
As for the organization, there were huge coverups of the problems.
When he got cancer in his eye,
he personally claimed-and had others claim-
that it was NOT the result of his lengthy exposure to known carcinogens-
but instead it was the result of the bright lights he used in the
filming of PFAL.
Bright lights, to this day, have NEVER been shown to have ANY ability
to cause cells to become cancerous
(except lengthy exposure to special ultraviolet "sun lamps",
which he did NOT use.)
His excuse (which lacks merit)
allowed him to claim he was suffering for a "spiritual reason".
He did NOT allow the word "cancer" to be spoken about it,
just that his eye was destroyed by the lights so he could film PFAL.
He used this as "proof" of his great committment and sacrifice to
God.
"I gave my EYE...what are YOU willing to give???"
Even up to his death, he NEVER changed his teaching on cancer,
which remained a teaching which caused others to suffer needlessly.
The reason for his death was COMPLETELY covered up.
It was claimed-by more than one person in leadership-
that he "just stopped believing", or "believed to stop living"
or "put his face to the wall" and that he could have
changed his mind and chosen to live at any point.
All these reasons were never called "spiritual suicide"-which,
technically, they WERE.
They were used to shift the blame for his death OFF his indulged
vices of alcohol and tobacco, OFF his lack of self-control,
OFF his fulfilling the lusts of the flesh,
and onto the PEOPLE-
leadership or peons.
"He would have chosen to live if you'd been faithful!"
The fiction of VPW as a super-believer was so complete
that even Howard Allen-who had "seen the man behind the curtain",
who knew of the addictions to alcohol and tobacco-
voluntarily accepted blame for VPW's death when he heard this.
To this day, some people absolutely REFUSE to accept VPW died
of cancer (although his death certificate is publically available
and easy to find online),
and some refuse to let go of the "he could have lived, had he
wanted" doctrine as well.
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waysider
I'd start with a summary of his credentials.
(I'm a big fan of short stories.)
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JeffSjo
Wow, some of you guys have been considering this stuff for quite a while, I'm glad this thread got brought to the front just so that I could read it.
It never ceases to amaze me how someone (Wierwille) that I thought of as a man-of-God was in fact so inept at simple honesty.
If claims are not backed up by the facts then they are b.s. IMO.
Who would want to believe in a God or a supposed man-of-God that was dishonest and stupid, not me. I'd rather be honest about my faults and adjust doctrines boldly when they are found to be lacking.
(edited for spelling)
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