I have no argument with your statements, as Victor Wierwille seemed to exhibit different personalities to different people. My only extended experience with him was at the 1978 Advanced Class in Emporia, and my overall sense was he was very quickly irritated about the least little things.
I would only add the following thought to what you wrote:
quote:
He wasn't quite the monster that he is portrayed as being. if he was, he probably wouldn't have gained thousands of followers, ya know?
My Way experiences from 1971 to 1987 were formed fairly independently of any personal interaction with Victor Wierwille. I only knew of the public persona he displayed at venues like PFAL, the Sunday Night Tapes, the occasional roadshow, and the Rock of Ages. In fact, I would hazard a guess that most of the thousands who were associated with the Way at any given time never actually met the man, much less were exposed to his humors.
He could well have been a monster, and I would never have known.
I would like to think that, had I had even an inkling of the shenanagans going on, my time spent with that organization would have been far shorter than it was.
(Diazbro said)Well lets put this into perspective. Much of what we know today about VPW wasn't known during his reign as prez of TWI and even until after his death. And even until the creation of WayDale and GS Cafe !
(HCW said) In terms of perspective, this is just not a true statement.
Err Well this is confusing and contradicts your later statement:
quote:
Diazbro's statement above is true from a matter of perspective, but from differing perspectives,
Whatever that means.....
And later
quote:
I, for one, have learned nothing new about VP from Waydale or GS cafe.
Based on this remark I suggest you are in a very,very small group of people. There was no way to get the kind of info on VPW say in 75 that one might get here now. The info on plagiarism, motorcoach liasons, cancer was not routinely discussed partly because this was a time that VPW enjoyed the pinnacle of his success and those who did know about his "problems" certainly didn't go public with that information. Information relating to his cancer and glass eye were kepy under wraps (even after people knew something wasn't quite right).
quote:
There was 'never' a time during VP's tenure that he wasn't controversial. There were always critics, there were always x-way people, leaders, pre-corps era and WC grads and drop-outs that spoke agains him and the ministry.
Some parents didn't necessarily like him and other religious figures might have called him a cult leader but to the starry-eyed, youthful novitiates he was nearly divine and there were *NEVER* any open discussions about his problems (like the rank and file believer would know of anyway at that time). What inside critics there were got quickly shown the door and that was that. Don't know when you were in but to talk badly about VPW in say 75 was NOT tolerated. Not from the inside it wasn't. If you claim that it was then you simply do not know what you are talking about.
quote:
A deeper look into the lives of Biblical heroes than what is usually spoken of them from the pulpit was disappointing to me. They did all of the same things 'bad' people on the street did. Some did MUCH, much worse.
VPW was no biblical hero and wasn't even close. He abused the trust of many and became a rich man off the free labor provided by people wanting to make a difference. He was lecherous, boozy, loved the spotlight, stole his "research" from others", and lied about his illness (when being open about it would have help others with similar problems). He doesn't get off the hook because "hey people in the bible did bad things too". Lets just all hookup and have wild orgies because "hey people in the bible did it too". We can always get back into "fellowship" afterwards right ?
quote:
We speak freely here in the cafe of VP's corruption. Fact is, however, that when he ran TWI it grew and when he turned over the reigns it shrunk to a level of relative insignificance.
Oh you jump over so many "facts" in your haste to
portray VPW as some type of great spiritual leader.
The "fact is" that the late 60s and early 70s provided tremendous growth for a variety of alternative religions NOT just TWI. There were plenty of young people seeking meaning in life. You remember the "hippy movement" dontcha ? People dropping out living in communes, driving around the country in busses ? Going to concerts, investigating different types of spirtualities.
I know - I was one of millions who did this. TWI was one of many places I checked out.
So called "cult" participation declined in the 80s for The Moonies, and Children of The Light. Lots of people grew up and got on with their lives after realizing that being a hippy or pursuing ideals over reality didn't put food on the table. Lots of people left (like me) and got on with their lives.
Also consider this VPW's successors were far less adept at running the show. LCM had the charisma of a clown and his persona , such as it was, was a cross between a homophobic , angry, athlete "of the spirit" whose only claim to fame was riding the bench er I mean playing collegiate football. No claims to being "the teacher" or
having an illustrious "research" record, or having a moment of epiphany where there was snow on the gas pumps. LCM had no theatre or "down home" preacher mannerims (though he later tried to affect these). It was bad theatre all around.
quote:
All criticism speaks more of the critic than the criticised, no matter how true the criticism is. A person who flings mud on someone else, himself, has dirty hands.
Ah this is a gem ! So if we criticize VPW then we are
guilty of "flinging mud" ? This is like the VPW loyalist saying we can't discuss VPW's problems because to do so would be to speak ill of the dead. Its just a way to try to shut down discussions of VPW's problems.
This reminds me of another poster who said we shouldn't criticize Wierwille's doctrine because 98% of it is true. I asked him how he determined the percentage that is true without being "critical." Never did get an answer.
Calling people mudslingers because they tell the truth about VPW is as silly as calling the prophets mudslingers because they told the truth about David. (Well you were the one making the comparison, Senator).
Wierwille's sins, and their exposure, are a warning to those who claim to speak for God. The truth will be told.
He wasn't quite the monster that he is portrayed as being
i'm not sure about that, dear sis. i even think maybe the kindness he showed and other stuff makes him all the more a monster (to me). ok let me go back and read more
quote:
Dismissing him as a sex abusing cult leader doesn't help his victims any.
not sure about that
quote:
Yeah, he was horrible, but not always.
that's what is so bad
ps. not going back to read more posts at the moment, sorry, just can't handle it right now
Wierwille was more the monster, because he knew what a godly man should act like. And so he was that godly man, some of the time. And in the act of doing good, the man believed he deserved special privileges. Evil privileges. After all, he worked so hard studying the Word, leading God's people. (And boy, aren't they a bunch of idiots!) "Happy is he who condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Time to meet the Moggy's needs so he can better move The Word, right?
The only thing Wierwille didn't bother to think about was how indulging his needs negated the very Word he purported to live by, and destroyed the lives of the family he claimed to have fathered.
One more time, and I fixed the grammar, WordWolf:
The face of evil is not scowling and drooling. It is not ugly. The face of evil smiles and is soft-spoken. The evil man indulges in evil because he is convinced he is entitled.
We are fooled because we cannot believe that such evil could come from someone so good.
I was talking about perspectives diazbro. Some people only saw certain sides of VPW and their view point, aka their perspective of him shapes their perception.
I pointed out the nature of VPW's character. You pointed out that is was contradictory - - it was. To some he was like a father figure, to others he was a monster, of the worst kind. Some people just never saw the monster, their perspective and therefore, their perception of VPW differs from those who saw the monster.
I also pointed out that the facts, apparently hidden from most, were available prior to his death. However, I believe you when you say they were hidden. I wouldn't put anything past most anyone who was 'major leadership' in TWI in any TWI era, I, II, or the current administration. Most certainly those who were not thrown out or stayed after the big purge.
You do realize that it is impossible for me to know something I didn't know, don't you? Or do you see me as yet another VPW worshipper? You appearently do. Actually, I'm not... really, I'm not .
It IS a simple fact that TWI grew when VP ran it declined when he began delegating control and made a quick downward turn under LCM. I can't speak to all of the contributing factors.
Your statement:
quote:
Oh you jump over so many "facts" in your haste to
portray VPW as some type of great spiritual leader.
Oh please spare me.... I know the facts you pointed out. AND. I am in NO haste to portray VPW as a hero in any way shape or form. I actually knew him. Personally. I worked for him and was trusted by him. He personally paid the last portion of my tuition when I neede $$$ to graduate from The Way Corps.... SO - freakin' what. Big whoopty doo. The fact that I knew him, or should I say, for context consistency's sake, knew a PART of him has NOTHING to do with what HE DID to people.
The fact that he "was there for me" when I needed help in NO WAY negates what he did to my friends.
The contradiction lies in HIM. He was in a perfect position to be 'wonderful' to EVERYBODY, he CHOSE to take advantage of his position in extremely self-serving ways. That's the FACTS, jack. Another fact is that while I thanked him for what he did for me I HATE him for what he did to YOU (any YOU that the YOU applies TO).
Also. It really hacks me off when I see people engaging in the same type of destructive behavior they speak out against. I'm not hacked at you diazbro, or anyone else, personally.
What hacks me off is the process. The thought process.
My statement regarding "Old Testament History class" referred to my dissapointment after "a deeper look into the lives of" the people we studied in the class FROM THE BIBLE who are "Biblical heroes."
My previous statement regarding VPW (at least what I thought I was trying to say) was that the lessons learned after my personal experience with him is that putting trust in HIM, certainly will "let you down."
THEN I said your statement was TRUE from a matter of (your) perspective. Different people DO have differing perspectives, do they not?
VPW had power. He was corrupted. Whether he ever had good intentions or not is pretty darn irrelevant, wouldn't you agree? Ask anyone he hurt what THEY think about his 'good intentions.'
What hacks me off, however, is the thought process that IMO keeps people enslaved by him. I believe that when a person cannot acknowlege any positive VP may have done as at least having positive effect on those involved; that person is, NOT, free. That person, perhaps, is not as "OUT" as they think they are. Perhaps they are not as free from the web that is TWI as they might think.
What you said, diazbro, reminded me of the process; I'm not saying that's what you did, per se.
At any rate. I see that thought process as the result of an injury that is yet to be healed completely. Emotional injuries are as real as any physical, as we know. I don't see the person who may exhibit 'the process' necessarily as bad in any way. I see them as injured.
For example. I walk with a slight limp. The limp is a result of an pretty serious injury to my left leg six months ago. After months of physical therapy and rehab work, it still has a ways to go before its completely back. Until its healed it will still show evidence of the injury. I can walk normally with a brace, even participate in pretty strenous workouts with the brace. One day it will be healed completely. The evidence will be there as long as it is not healed. The injury may even change my leg permanently.
I believe we all are like that. We were 'all' injured by TWI to differing degrees. I respect EVERYONE who posts here, whether we agree on specific points or not. I'm not immune. I've seen places in my own life where I wasn't as free or as healed as I thought.
Sometimes fightin' it out on the forums shakes loose some hidden TWi crap from the corners of our minds.
People have mentioned in the above posts that they knew VP as a monster. Others say he also had a good side to him. And your posts say that people's opinion's differ because of which side they experienced of VP.
I never had any 'personal' 'friendly' relationship with VP. I was in TWI for over 20 yrs, was corps and I'm pretty sure he never knew I existed.
So, my personal experience was, I saw VP as a bible preaching MOG who had the answers and I saw him as a monster as well because of his ability to reach out to people, take their hearts, by tearing it out of their chests and stomping all over it in public no less.
So, now my evaluation of VP was this. I desperately wanted to do everything RIGHT and to the best of my ability BECAUSE...I had seen the monster side of him and never wanted to be on the receiving side of it. NEVER! That would have destroyed me. And by doing this, he was able to have a control over me I didn't even realize was happening at the time.
So what kind of relationship is that??? A very twisted, manipulative one I think. And of course, nothing he would do or say would ever be questioned. Therefore, you were in a 'no win' battle.
I believe that those whom were 'blessed' by his friendship, his person, his influence was because they felt they were somehow above his wrath. That somehow, they were special in VP's eyes and would never receive the treatment they may have witnessed was done to others. Otherwise, why would anyone want to subject themselves to a possible attack? What if you fell short? What if you weren't 'ON' and something terribly unspiritual happened due to your 'unbelief'? What would have happened then?
quote:
I worked for him and was trusted by him. He personally paid the last portion of my tuition when I neede $$$ to graduate from The Way Corps....
HCW...maybe this was 'shut-up' money due to the extensive legal battles going on because of the accident?
Just a thought.
Disclaimer: I know I'll get eaten alive for posting this.. but I don't really care...it's how I feel.
Good point ex, it really IS easy to be generous with the bucks when all you have to do is reach in the ol till :-(
Think about it though hcw, as much as you apreciate his help, do you think it was fair for vp to pay your tuition and yet throw others out for not having the *believing* to come up with the bucks?
For some reason he liked you or apreciated what you had to offer, he was generous and kind to you.....that does not make hom any less a monster ....imo he was just a monster who knew how to be nice to the people that he liked.....the bible talks about that...something about even the worst folks a(can`t remember what they are called) are able to be nice to those that they like...thats pretty easy.
I just watched a bio. of Al Capone on The History Channel.
It seems as though Al was quite the generous sort as well. His cronies loved him. He was fun, caring, generous as could be, and, if you just managed to stay on the right side of him - or keep below his radar when you'd do something he wouldn't approve of - everything was roses.
Problem was, Al also had no reservations about doling out "reproof" with a baseball bat. Beat a couple of guests to death at the dinner table? Sure, that's fine. They were out of fellowship anyway, I'm sure.
I think a lot of seemingly "larger than life" men have that sort of personality trait. They can make people think that they care for them deeply, and have their best interests at heart, when, in reality, they're just using them, and see those around them as simply means to an end.
I think Wierwille was just such an individual. A really sick one. And not "Take two aspirin and call me in the morning" kind of sick. I'm talking, "serious, incurable mental defect" kind of sick...
Having known grifter Vic on a personal level for many years, I must say that George's comparison to Al Capone is a good one.
Wierwille knew that he had control of his followers...he took that for granted. He craved the adoration of his followers more than anything and was able to maintain that, even as he was horribly abusing many of them.
The idea that a religious cult is based upon the personality of it's charismatic leader, rings true in the case of Vic Wierwille...evidenced by the posting of wierwille apologists, defending their "hero", even to this day.
I agree with George's "duh" statement. I think for the sake of those of us who experienced his "benevolence," the discussion needs to deepen a little.
Sorry if I offended anyone, especially my dearest sisex. I think sometimes for the sake of deepening a discussion, it's neccessary to bring up other sides of an issue. ;)-->
Some funny, funny comments in this thread. And you know, truely funny stuff has a ring of truth to it.
For me, VP was a man. Like RAF stated, God gave me opportunities to learn- in the written Word, studying Bullinger, and working with people. Yeah, I was hardheaded and equated the Word with TWI. But the Lord put good ole skepticism in my genes. I also was stupid enough to believe that God would talk to me-so consequently when things went sour and then sour-er, I walked, I believe, in wisdom. The first sour I remember is when the rule that ALL the ABUNDANT SHARING went to Jerusalem, uh, International. So that shows you how long ago that was. I simply kept my mouth shut and as a sower, sowed the good seed on good soil. Sometimes the need was at my twig level. Sometimes the need was for a WOW from our area. I remember teachings when VP challenged the students that if they found something different than what he was teaching, to come see him and be prepared to show him where he was wrong. SEE, I TOLD YOU THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. Cause it didn't last long.
That's just my two cents worth. I really find the fact that comical remarks are made and can be made by those of us who are ex-twi. There was a point in time where we could only cry, question why, why, why and try to make sense of what happened. It appears in humor, we have made peace. My heart is warmed. Unfortunately some of the comments caused me to laugh while I was sipping my herbal tea and it shot out my nose. Now THAT'S funny!!!!
Hey, Hitler had followers and I am sure that he had a 'good' side to him too.
I just don't see it. Just because he has followers does not mean he was good. I look at the overall scheme. Yes VP did seem nice to people a father figure if you will. I think he always had his agenda in mind. That was foremost in his mind all the time.if he had shown how evil he was all the time no one would have stood with the man.
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Ex10,
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I have no argument with your statements, as Victor Wierwille seemed to exhibit different personalities to different people. My only extended experience with him was at the 1978 Advanced Class in Emporia, and my overall sense was he was very quickly irritated about the least little things.
I would only add the following thought to what you wrote:
My Way experiences from 1971 to 1987 were formed fairly independently of any personal interaction with Victor Wierwille. I only knew of the public persona he displayed at venues like PFAL, the Sunday Night Tapes, the occasional roadshow, and the Rock of Ages. In fact, I would hazard a guess that most of the thousands who were associated with the Way at any given time never actually met the man, much less were exposed to his humors.
He could well have been a monster, and I would never have known.
I would like to think that, had I had even an inkling of the shenanagans going on, my time spent with that organization would have been far shorter than it was.
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Ham
Good point.. same for Dillinger, Claude Barker, Hitler.. they could be quite charming. "Charming" indeed.
You could never become Chancellor of Germany by being an a**hole, at least publically.
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Ham
At least with Loy, we finally saw, live and in concert, just what we were really dealing with..
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George Aar
Well, pardon me but, DUH! I mean, what conman isn't? It's all part of the game. That was his job.
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justloafing
I know exactly where to look. I helped dig his grave.
;)-->
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Ham
Maybe not for everybody, but it did for me. Any dainties I received from the group taste pretty sour now.
In a way, I wish I never found out what the ******* was up to. Wouldn't have to sort through all this junk. But I think I am better off knowing.
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Ham
But I think that's half right. My "positive" experiences will NEVER negate the negatives some folks got, I wish they could.
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diazbro
Err Well this is confusing and contradicts your later statement:
Whatever that means.....
And later
Based on this remark I suggest you are in a very,very small group of people. There was no way to get the kind of info on VPW say in 75 that one might get here now. The info on plagiarism, motorcoach liasons, cancer was not routinely discussed partly because this was a time that VPW enjoyed the pinnacle of his success and those who did know about his "problems" certainly didn't go public with that information. Information relating to his cancer and glass eye were kepy under wraps (even after people knew something wasn't quite right).
Some parents didn't necessarily like him and other religious figures might have called him a cult leader but to the starry-eyed, youthful novitiates he was nearly divine and there were *NEVER* any open discussions about his problems (like the rank and file believer would know of anyway at that time). What inside critics there were got quickly shown the door and that was that. Don't know when you were in but to talk badly about VPW in say 75 was NOT tolerated. Not from the inside it wasn't. If you claim that it was then you simply do not know what you are talking about.
VPW was no biblical hero and wasn't even close. He abused the trust of many and became a rich man off the free labor provided by people wanting to make a difference. He was lecherous, boozy, loved the spotlight, stole his "research" from others", and lied about his illness (when being open about it would have help others with similar problems). He doesn't get off the hook because "hey people in the bible did bad things too". Lets just all hookup and have wild orgies because "hey people in the bible did it too". We can always get back into "fellowship" afterwards right ?
Oh you jump over so many "facts" in your haste to
portray VPW as some type of great spiritual leader.
The "fact is" that the late 60s and early 70s provided tremendous growth for a variety of alternative religions NOT just TWI. There were plenty of young people seeking meaning in life. You remember the "hippy movement" dontcha ? People dropping out living in communes, driving around the country in busses ? Going to concerts, investigating different types of spirtualities.
I know - I was one of millions who did this. TWI was one of many places I checked out.
So called "cult" participation declined in the 80s for The Moonies, and Children of The Light. Lots of people grew up and got on with their lives after realizing that being a hippy or pursuing ideals over reality didn't put food on the table. Lots of people left (like me) and got on with their lives.
Also consider this VPW's successors were far less adept at running the show. LCM had the charisma of a clown and his persona , such as it was, was a cross between a homophobic , angry, athlete "of the spirit" whose only claim to fame was riding the bench er I mean playing collegiate football. No claims to being "the teacher" or
having an illustrious "research" record, or having a moment of epiphany where there was snow on the gas pumps. LCM had no theatre or "down home" preacher mannerims (though he later tried to affect these). It was bad theatre all around.
Ah this is a gem ! So if we criticize VPW then we are
guilty of "flinging mud" ? This is like the VPW loyalist saying we can't discuss VPW's problems because to do so would be to speak ill of the dead. Its just a way to try to shut down discussions of VPW's problems.
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Raf
This reminds me of another poster who said we shouldn't criticize Wierwille's doctrine because 98% of it is true. I asked him how he determined the percentage that is true without being "critical." Never did get an answer.
Calling people mudslingers because they tell the truth about VPW is as silly as calling the prophets mudslingers because they told the truth about David. (Well you were the one making the comparison, Senator).
Wierwille's sins, and their exposure, are a warning to those who claim to speak for God. The truth will be told.
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excathedra
ps. not going back to read more posts at the moment, sorry, just can't handle it right now
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WeWereScammed
Let's put it this way . . .
Whether he was good, bad, or whatever . . .
We Were Scammed!
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shazdancer
Thanks, exy, you said it for me.
Wierwille was more the monster, because he knew what a godly man should act like. And so he was that godly man, some of the time. And in the act of doing good, the man believed he deserved special privileges. Evil privileges. After all, he worked so hard studying the Word, leading God's people. (And boy, aren't they a bunch of idiots!) "Happy is he who condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Time to meet the Moggy's needs so he can better move The Word, right?
The only thing Wierwille didn't bother to think about was how indulging his needs negated the very Word he purported to live by, and destroyed the lives of the family he claimed to have fathered.
One more time, and I fixed the grammar, WordWolf:
The face of evil is not scowling and drooling. It is not ugly. The face of evil smiles and is soft-spoken. The evil man indulges in evil because he is convinced he is entitled.
We are fooled because we cannot believe that such evil could come from someone so good.
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
*We were fooled because we cannot believe such evil could come from someone so good*
Amen and amen shaz...
((((((Excathedra)))))
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HCW
I was talking about perspectives diazbro. Some people only saw certain sides of VPW and their view point, aka their perspective of him shapes their perception.
I pointed out the nature of VPW's character. You pointed out that is was contradictory - - it was. To some he was like a father figure, to others he was a monster, of the worst kind. Some people just never saw the monster, their perspective and therefore, their perception of VPW differs from those who saw the monster.
I also pointed out that the facts, apparently hidden from most, were available prior to his death. However, I believe you when you say they were hidden. I wouldn't put anything past most anyone who was 'major leadership' in TWI in any TWI era, I, II, or the current administration. Most certainly those who were not thrown out or stayed after the big purge.
You do realize that it is impossible for me to know something I didn't know, don't you? Or do you see me as yet another VPW worshipper? You appearently do. Actually, I'm not... really, I'm not
.
It IS a simple fact that TWI grew when VP ran it declined when he began delegating control and made a quick downward turn under LCM. I can't speak to all of the contributing factors.
Your statement:
Oh please spare me.... I know the facts you pointed out. AND. I am in NO haste to portray VPW as a hero in any way shape or form. I actually knew him. Personally. I worked for him and was trusted by him. He personally paid the last portion of my tuition when I neede $$$ to graduate from The Way Corps.... SO - freakin' what. Big whoopty doo. The fact that I knew him, or should I say, for context consistency's sake, knew a PART of him has NOTHING to do with what HE DID to people.
The fact that he "was there for me" when I needed help in NO WAY negates what he did to my friends.
The contradiction lies in HIM. He was in a perfect position to be 'wonderful' to EVERYBODY, he CHOSE to take advantage of his position in extremely self-serving ways. That's the FACTS, jack. Another fact is that while I thanked him for what he did for me I HATE him for what he did to YOU (any YOU that the YOU applies TO).
Also. It really hacks me off when I see people engaging in the same type of destructive behavior they speak out against. I'm not hacked at you diazbro, or anyone else, personally.
What hacks me off is the process. The thought process.
My statement regarding "Old Testament History class" referred to my dissapointment after "a deeper look into the lives of" the people we studied in the class FROM THE BIBLE who are "Biblical heroes."
My previous statement regarding VPW (at least what I thought I was trying to say) was that the lessons learned after my personal experience with him is that putting trust in HIM, certainly will "let you down."
THEN I said your statement was TRUE from a matter of (your) perspective. Different people DO have differing perspectives, do they not?
VPW had power. He was corrupted. Whether he ever had good intentions or not is pretty darn irrelevant, wouldn't you agree? Ask anyone he hurt what THEY think about his 'good intentions.'
What hacks me off, however, is the thought process that IMO keeps people enslaved by him. I believe that when a person cannot acknowlege any positive VP may have done as at least having positive effect on those involved; that person is, NOT, free. That person, perhaps, is not as "OUT" as they think they are. Perhaps they are not as free from the web that is TWI as they might think.
What you said, diazbro, reminded me of the process; I'm not saying that's what you did, per se.
At any rate. I see that thought process as the result of an injury that is yet to be healed completely. Emotional injuries are as real as any physical, as we know. I don't see the person who may exhibit 'the process' necessarily as bad in any way. I see them as injured.
For example. I walk with a slight limp. The limp is a result of an pretty serious injury to my left leg six months ago. After months of physical therapy and rehab work, it still has a ways to go before its completely back. Until its healed it will still show evidence of the injury. I can walk normally with a brace, even participate in pretty strenous workouts with the brace. One day it will be healed completely. The evidence will be there as long as it is not healed. The injury may even change my leg permanently.
I believe we all are like that. We were 'all' injured by TWI to differing degrees. I respect EVERYONE who posts here, whether we agree on specific points or not. I'm not immune. I've seen places in my own life where I wasn't as free or as healed as I thought.
Sometimes fightin' it out on the forums shakes loose some hidden TWi crap from the corners of our minds.
Keep swingin bro.
you're cool w/me.
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A la prochaine
HCW,
People have mentioned in the above posts that they knew VP as a monster. Others say he also had a good side to him. And your posts say that people's opinion's differ because of which side they experienced of VP.
I never had any 'personal' 'friendly' relationship with VP. I was in TWI for over 20 yrs, was corps and I'm pretty sure he never knew I existed.
So, my personal experience was, I saw VP as a bible preaching MOG who had the answers and I saw him as a monster as well because of his ability to reach out to people, take their hearts, by tearing it out of their chests and stomping all over it in public no less.
So, now my evaluation of VP was this. I desperately wanted to do everything RIGHT and to the best of my ability BECAUSE...I had seen the monster side of him and never wanted to be on the receiving side of it. NEVER! That would have destroyed me. And by doing this, he was able to have a control over me I didn't even realize was happening at the time.
So what kind of relationship is that??? A very twisted, manipulative one I think. And of course, nothing he would do or say would ever be questioned. Therefore, you were in a 'no win' battle.
I believe that those whom were 'blessed' by his friendship, his person, his influence was because they felt they were somehow above his wrath. That somehow, they were special in VP's eyes and would never receive the treatment they may have witnessed was done to others. Otherwise, why would anyone want to subject themselves to a possible attack? What if you fell short? What if you weren't 'ON' and something terribly unspiritual happened due to your 'unbelief'? What would have happened then?
HCW...maybe this was 'shut-up' money due to the extensive legal battles going on because of the accident?
Just a thought.
Disclaimer: I know I'll get eaten alive for posting this.. but I don't really care...it's how I feel.
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excathedra
"personally" paid ? where'd he get the money ?
:)-->
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rascal
Good point ex, it really IS easy to be generous with the bucks when all you have to do is reach in the ol till :-(
Think about it though hcw, as much as you apreciate his help, do you think it was fair for vp to pay your tuition and yet throw others out for not having the *believing* to come up with the bucks?
For some reason he liked you or apreciated what you had to offer, he was generous and kind to you.....that does not make hom any less a monster ....imo he was just a monster who knew how to be nice to the people that he liked.....the bible talks about that...something about even the worst folks a(can`t remember what they are called) are able to be nice to those that they like...thats pretty easy.
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George Aar
I just watched a bio. of Al Capone on The History Channel.
It seems as though Al was quite the generous sort as well. His cronies loved him. He was fun, caring, generous as could be, and, if you just managed to stay on the right side of him - or keep below his radar when you'd do something he wouldn't approve of - everything was roses.
Problem was, Al also had no reservations about doling out "reproof" with a baseball bat. Beat a couple of guests to death at the dinner table? Sure, that's fine. They were out of fellowship anyway, I'm sure.
I think a lot of seemingly "larger than life" men have that sort of personality trait. They can make people think that they care for them deeply, and have their best interests at heart, when, in reality, they're just using them, and see those around them as simply means to an end.
I think Wierwille was just such an individual. A really sick one. And not "Take two aspirin and call me in the morning" kind of sick. I'm talking, "serious, incurable mental defect" kind of sick...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Having known grifter Vic on a personal level for many years, I must say that George's comparison to Al Capone is a good one.
Wierwille knew that he had control of his followers...he took that for granted. He craved the adoration of his followers more than anything and was able to maintain that, even as he was horribly abusing many of them.
The idea that a religious cult is based upon the personality of it's charismatic leader, rings true in the case of Vic Wierwille...evidenced by the posting of wierwille apologists, defending their "hero", even to this day.
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ex10
sigh.....
I am not a Wierwille apologist by any means.
I agree with George's "duh" statement. I think for the sake of those of us who experienced his "benevolence," the discussion needs to deepen a little.
Sorry if I offended anyone, especially my dearest sisex. I think sometimes for the sake of deepening a discussion, it's neccessary to bring up other sides of an issue.
;)-->
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vickles
Hey, Hitler had followers and I am sure that he had a 'good' side to him too. Or there would not have been so many people following him.
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masterherbalist
Some funny, funny comments in this thread. And you know, truely funny stuff has a ring of truth to it.
For me, VP was a man. Like RAF stated, God gave me opportunities to learn- in the written Word, studying Bullinger, and working with people. Yeah, I was hardheaded and equated the Word with TWI. But the Lord put good ole skepticism in my genes. I also was stupid enough to believe that God would talk to me-so consequently when things went sour and then sour-er, I walked, I believe, in wisdom. The first sour I remember is when the rule that ALL the ABUNDANT SHARING went to Jerusalem, uh, International. So that shows you how long ago that was. I simply kept my mouth shut and as a sower, sowed the good seed on good soil. Sometimes the need was at my twig level. Sometimes the need was for a WOW from our area. I remember teachings when VP challenged the students that if they found something different than what he was teaching, to come see him and be prepared to show him where he was wrong. SEE, I TOLD YOU THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO. Cause it didn't last long.
That's just my two cents worth. I really find the fact that comical remarks are made and can be made by those of us who are ex-twi. There was a point in time where we could only cry, question why, why, why and try to make sense of what happened. It appears in humor, we have made peace. My heart is warmed. Unfortunately some of the comments caused me to laugh while I was sipping my herbal tea and it shot out my nose. Now THAT'S funny!!!!
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justloafing
I just don't see it. Just because he has followers does not mean he was good. I look at the overall scheme. Yes VP did seem nice to people a father figure if you will. I think he always had his agenda in mind. That was foremost in his mind all the time.if he had shown how evil he was all the time no one would have stood with the man.
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excathedra
i agree justloafing
i think vickles was kind of saying the same thing
i adore your little avitar
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