You didn't know they sold off the plane? It was costing them a lot more money
than it was worth to maintain it. So, when they were selling off the
properties, one of the first things to go was the airplane. They didnt exactly
broadcast that-in fact, they sometimes denied outright they sold ANYTHING.
VPW announced it at ROA '80 or '81. It stuck in my mind because I had traveled with the flight services people and I knew and liked them a lot. I felt their loss and went to them about it after the evening meeting.
Why keep the plane? Since they lost all the properties...and most of their followers, there's no reason for Rozilla to fly anywhere. I mean, who would meet her at the airport?
Vic Wierwille was an extremely insecure man. He desperatly needed to be the center of attention and to be adored by all...he craved this. In fact, Wierwille literally fabricated incredible stories, to make himself, not only look good...but to look "God-like". He had a lot of people conned into thinking that he was not only an apostle, but the GREATEST apostle since Paul of Tarsus. Being in his presense was the greatest priviledge of your otherwise, sorry foot life. To hear him speak...oh, how we hung on his every word...and he loved every minute of it. He ate it up like grandma's meatloaf.
The truth of the matter is that Wierwille was a self serving egomaniac with delusions of grandeur. He was dishonest, uncaring, and dangerous. The gulf between what Wierwiile wanted people to believe about him...and the truth of who he really was...is MASSIVE. Perhaps that is one reason that folks have a difficult time with hearing about the real wierwille. It's difficult to go from "greatest apostle in 2000 years" to "sexual predator and lying bastard" without some sort of "emotional short circuiting". People don't want to believe it...they rationalize..."he was a good teacher, he taught me lots of bible stuff, we all had a good time at the nightowl, etc, etc, etc. They become offended at the harshness displayed towards wierwille...
Well, IMHO, anything of value that you got out of your twi experience had very little, if anything to do with vpw. Bottom line...he lied in God's name and used people for his own self gratification. As long as people continue to worship vic the mog, they will continue to be mentally captivated within wayworld. Recognizing wierwille for what he was, is a huge step in recovery.
The gulf between what Wierwiile wanted people to believe about him...and the truth of who he really was...is MASSIVE
Quite a good point. He has some people fooled, even today. No way he could EVER do any wrong. Well, at least he did not do it to me. Well, maybe it wasn't so bad for THEM. Well...
Have to admit he had some charisma.. too damn bad he used to to screw so many people over. Really could've done something good with it.
The fact of the matter concerning VPW is that different people had very differing experiences with him. The prevailing wind here at the GS Cafe, maybe rightfully so, is to point out the negative aspects of his character, things he did, etc.
That wind blows so strongly here that few people even dare bring out positive experiences or point out any thing positive they may think or even know to haev been true about the guy.
You get branded "VPW worshipper" which I've seen to be among the worst of tags a person can get in the cafe.
My concern, as always, is not so much who VPW was, or wasn't but who are WE, today. If VPW was, in fact all of the worst things spoken of him, and we, or any one of us are ugly people today... the WORST of VPW 'wins' and TWI, today IS made correct....
Their version of "The Word" does in fact, "prevail."
I actually knew the man, personally, I knew The Way International ministry intimately. There is, as Paul McCartney's song says, "good and bad, in everyone, learn to live..."
I don't have a problem with anyone relating their thoughts, opinions, or experiences as you see them. In fact, I welocme it and encourage it.
I would caution though, that if a person cannot even accept the concept that VP had some good qualities. did some godd and notable things in his life; IMO that person is simple NOT free of whatever bad VP did, in fact, do or promote.
My concern for myself and others is that we be free, truly free, from whatever bad there ever was, is or ever will be concerning TWI.
I'm not about spouting the virtues of VP, but please, keep in mind that one person's vehement disgust concering him and the way it may be expressed here can and will retard the healing process in some who only saw "The Wizard of OZ" side of him.
One person's negative experience cannot negate another's positive and vice versa.
Oh, I dunno. Rascal has posted about positive experiences she had with docvic(praise be his name) without being branded a docvic(praise be his name) apologist or worshipper.
The fact of the matter concerning VPW is that different people had very differing experiences with him. The prevailing wind here at the GS Cafe, maybe rightfully so, is to point out the negative aspects of his character, things he did, etc.
Well lets put this into perspective. Much of what we know today about VPW wasn't known during his reign as prez of TWI and even until after his death. And even until the creation of WayDale and GS Cafe ! During that time not much was revealed about the sources of his books, why he chose to self-publish, his education, and associated past with other key figures in Way history. In fact he enjoyed an exalted status during his hey dey and the phrase "when we were kings" comes to mind when thinking of VPW's lifestyle during the 70s.
After his death details started to emerge and only later did some of us learn about the true nature of his death (which was deliberately not disclosed). This led to more examination which led to more questions and only after a very long while did we start to get a more accurate picture of VPW and some of the problems he had had all along.
So its only after his death that a reasonable examination of his life could begin because he was untouchable during the glory day. I distinctly recall being given the evil eye of reproof for asking questions about his PhD work. This was round 76 and no one and I mean NO ONE could question the (alleged) integrity of "Doctor Victor Paul Weirwille, The Teacher" and expect to be welcomed to Twig.
Some people want to remember VPW as a hot shot while others prefer the reality. Sure some get deep into the details that were kept secret and stay there which I don't think is so bad. Those so called "glory days" were whitewashed and we now know that which is why many are not pleased with those who would represent VPW as just "a human with the normal problems". VPW knew what he was doing and knew he was being given adulation and was taking advantage of it... He could have stopped the madness and not abused the trust people placed in him. But he did abuse this trust.
I recall once VPW teaching about those Corps and dedicated minsitry people who had been charged to minister to people and how serious a commitment it was for them to not betray the trust of those newcomers to the word:
MAtt. 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
VPw said that this was the fate of those in TWI (primarily the ordained) who took advantage of the trust. By his own standard its clear that he felt that those in a positon of authority were held to a much higher standard. You cannot let VPW off the hook with the "oh he was just a man" think. It doesn't fly - not even by his own teachings.
Interestingly this same verse was later used under LCM to apply to those seeking a departure from TWI. This verse was used to keep people from leaving and was something of a precursor to the infamous greasespot by midnight remark.
Having been the recipient of VP's kindness is not a popular place to be as a poster here.
He wasn't quite the monster that he is portrayed as being. if he was, he probably wouldn't have gained thousands of followers, ya know?
It's really hard for those of us who knew him as a kind human, to reconcile all the crap. He was horrible, yet cool, all at the same time. How does that happen?
Dismissing him as a sex abusing cult leader doesn't help his victims any. He was way more complicated than that.
Yeah, he was horrible, but not always.
He was also kind, charming, fatherly and seemed to know what he was talking about. Maybe he was the epitome of evil incarnate. Maybe he was just one screwed up human being, who alot of people loved and trusted, who never had to answer for his dysfunction.
And unfortunately, it's too late to confront him and figure out why.....
Well lets put this into perspective. Much of what we know today about VPW wasn't known during his reign as prez of TWI and even until after his death. And even until the creation of WayDale and GS Cafe !
In terms of perspective, this is just not a true statement.
I'm not saying this to argue with anyone or speak in support of VP.
I, for one, have learned nothing new about VP from Waydale or GS cafe. There was 'never' a time during VP's tenure that he wasn't controversial. There were always critics, there were always x-way people, leaders, pre-corps era and WC grads and drop-outs that spoke agains him and the ministry. It continued to grow in the face of and in spite of all criticism.
The 'lessons learned' about VP's life since his death, as well as what I personally observed of his life as a first hand observer and a student of his, for me, primarily put into perspective and serve as eternal punctuation to a statement I'm sure we've all heard before:
"You can't put your trust in men; every time you do they will certainly let you down."
Old Testament History class in The Way Corps (which I do have an actual accredited degree of higher learning from) was a devastating disappointment for me. A deeper look into the lives of Biblical heroes than what is usually spoken of them from the pulpit was disappointing to me. They did all of the same things 'bad' people on the street did. Some did MUCH, much worse.
Diazbro's statement above is true from a matter of perspective, but from differing perspectives, people see him differently because they've experienced him differently.
Power corrupts humans. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Somebody didn't just 'make that up' one day saying, "Ooohh, that sounds cool, I'll coin that phrase." Very, very few are able to successfully wield power for long without being corrupted by it. The statement is a result of someone's valid experience.
We speak freely here in the cafe of VP's corruption. Fact is, however, that when he ran TWI it grew and when he turned over the reigns it shrunk to a level of relative insignificance.
All criticism speaks more of the critic than the criticised, no matter how true the criticism is. A person who flings mud on someone else, himself, has dirty hands.
Whenever we look 'up' to anything having to do with man in this life, we WILL be disappointed sooner or later.
It was more than the charisma of a snake oil salesman that built The Way ministry. People were healed. Crutches and wheelchairs were left behind at Rock of Ages. I have been healed, personally, I have personally healed others. I have found God faithful as VP said He (God) would be. I have found in VP, that in his flesh, there is no good thing, as the Apostle Paul wrote was the case in himself. That was part of my experience in TWI.
Nothing in this world is all that it's cracked up to be. I learned that during my experience with VP and TWI. I 've since had opportunities to observe other 'lofty' individuals who are all the same as VP - FLAWED. Myself included. (in the flawed category )
Whatever your perspective on VP, I believe it is healthy to know and accept the fact that there are differing perspectives.
I for one knew nothing of what was going with vp or lcm. I had heard of rumblings but they were never said or put in front of my face as fact. I also had some gut feelings things were not as clean as what was let on to be. I left 18 years ago knowing nothing of what was going on as fact. I also still did some things and believed some things that twi taught us was right. Other things I did not do anymore. Still waybrained for 12 or 13 years.
Bump ahead to when I found WayDale. I logged on and went straight to chat. Not having known what really happened at twi I was asking why everyone was complaining and acting so hurt and told them to get over it. Well you can imagine the reception I recieved.
Well P**l A***n was there on the chat and invited me to a private chat. Asked who I was and I told him. He asked if I would go to the forums and read what had happened. So I did.
I read until 3 or 4 in the morning. Called off work the next day and got up around 6 and read more. Not only did I read things that I had thought maybe happening but other things I never thought happened even though they happened to me (the mental abuse and the lies that were taught as fact ect......) I was humbled to say the least.
That is when I was really able to start and put alot of my thinking back together or in a better term redirect my thinking into a more positive way of seeing the world. Yes WayDale and Greasespot 1 have surley helped me more than twi ever could have. I just registered here at GS2 awhile back.
To think that some people know what happened while in twi is absurd. It takes places like WD and GS in a lot cases to bring forth the true evils of twi.As twi did to us (choke us almost to death) that is what I hope happens to them and I sure hope we are seeing the grip tighten around their throats. I hope the good people in twi get out of the way.
I remember walking in on my Dad when he was with another woman when I was a teenager. I felt like someone had just hit me in the nuts – I was sick to my stomach.
I had “heard” that he was playing around – but I had no first hand evidence – and I did not WANT to find any either!! Certainly not THIS way!
But it happened. I was confronted with what I did not WANT to deal with. I had to stop defending his honor to my Mom’s accusations. He was worthy of at least some REAL contempt. He had earned it. He broke her heart. He betrayed her as well. He belittled himself.
Dealing with stuff like this can range from simple to devastating. Regardless, it still needs to be dealt with.
IMHO if people know about VP but still refuse to deal with the “bad” side or the “flesh” side of his personality… that says more about them, than him. If I am in denial – then it makes me part of the problem.
Denial is all about closing the eyes. Refusing to admit. Mrs. W. stayed with VP – She gave us just cause (those of us who did not SEE him do heinous things) to stay in denial. All of the corps saw plenty of “little” bits and pieces of damning evidence. She added to the strengthening of the denial needed by us “followers” to participate in the charade of TWI.
Who would ever think Mrs. W. did anything except help her husband by standing by him! Let’s look a little closer - True… she stayed with him. She gave him “cover”. She let it “happen” again and again by remaining silent. Denial helps NO one.
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WordWolf
You didn't know they sold off the plane? It was costing them a lot more money
than it was worth to maintain it. So, when they were selling off the
properties, one of the first things to go was the airplane. They didnt exactly
broadcast that-in fact, they sometimes denied outright they sold ANYTHING.
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Jim
I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when I read that...
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Jim
VPW announced it at ROA '80 or '81. It stuck in my mind because I had traveled with the flight services people and I knew and liked them a lot. I felt their loss and went to them about it after the evening meeting.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Why keep the plane? Since they lost all the properties...and most of their followers, there's no reason for Rozilla to fly anywhere. I mean, who would meet her at the airport?
Vic Wierwille was an extremely insecure man. He desperatly needed to be the center of attention and to be adored by all...he craved this. In fact, Wierwille literally fabricated incredible stories, to make himself, not only look good...but to look "God-like". He had a lot of people conned into thinking that he was not only an apostle, but the GREATEST apostle since Paul of Tarsus. Being in his presense was the greatest priviledge of your otherwise, sorry foot life. To hear him speak...oh, how we hung on his every word...and he loved every minute of it. He ate it up like grandma's meatloaf.
The truth of the matter is that Wierwille was a self serving egomaniac with delusions of grandeur. He was dishonest, uncaring, and dangerous. The gulf between what Wierwiile wanted people to believe about him...and the truth of who he really was...is MASSIVE.
Perhaps that is one reason that folks have a difficult time with hearing about the real wierwille. It's difficult to go from "greatest apostle in 2000 years" to "sexual predator and lying bastard" without some sort of "emotional short circuiting". People don't want to believe it...they rationalize..."he was a good teacher, he taught me lots of bible stuff, we all had a good time at the nightowl, etc, etc, etc. They become offended at the harshness displayed towards wierwille...
Well, IMHO, anything of value that you got out of your twi experience had very little, if anything to do with vpw. Bottom line...he lied in God's name and used people for his own self gratification. As long as people continue to worship vic the mog, they will continue to be mentally captivated within wayworld. Recognizing wierwille for what he was, is a huge step in recovery.
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WordWolf
Mind if I quote you on that, Groucho?
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Ham
Besides, I don't know if the plane is big enough anymore..
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Ham
Quite a good point. He has some people fooled, even today. No way he could EVER do any wrong. Well, at least he did not do it to me. Well, maybe it wasn't so bad for THEM. Well...
Have to admit he had some charisma.. too damn bad he used to to screw so many people over. Really could've done something good with it.
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HCW
The fact of the matter concerning VPW is that different people had very differing experiences with him. The prevailing wind here at the GS Cafe, maybe rightfully so, is to point out the negative aspects of his character, things he did, etc.
That wind blows so strongly here that few people even dare bring out positive experiences or point out any thing positive they may think or even know to haev been true about the guy.
You get branded "VPW worshipper" which I've seen to be among the worst of tags a person can get in the cafe.
My concern, as always, is not so much who VPW was, or wasn't but who are WE, today. If VPW was, in fact all of the worst things spoken of him, and we, or any one of us are ugly people today... the WORST of VPW 'wins' and TWI, today IS made correct....
Their version of "The Word" does in fact, "prevail."
I actually knew the man, personally, I knew The Way International ministry intimately. There is, as Paul McCartney's song says, "good and bad, in everyone, learn to live..."
I don't have a problem with anyone relating their thoughts, opinions, or experiences as you see them. In fact, I welocme it and encourage it.
I would caution though, that if a person cannot even accept the concept that VP had some good qualities. did some godd and notable things in his life; IMO that person is simple NOT free of whatever bad VP did, in fact, do or promote.
My concern for myself and others is that we be free, truly free, from whatever bad there ever was, is or ever will be concerning TWI.
I'm not about spouting the virtues of VP, but please, keep in mind that one person's vehement disgust concering him and the way it may be expressed here can and will retard the healing process in some who only saw "The Wizard of OZ" side of him.
One person's negative experience cannot negate another's positive and vice versa.
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Steve!
Oh, I dunno. Rascal has posted about positive experiences she had with docvic(praise be his name) without being branded a docvic(praise be his name) apologist or worshipper.
Others have, also.
Methinks you paint with too broad a brush.
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HCW
Isn't that true of many more of us than who would ever readily admit it? The 'us' I'm referring to is human beings.
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excathedra
my own gulf isn't as big as his was
:)-->
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Too Gray Now
Yup,
I am so bad at that MASSIVE game of deception - I don't even play gulf, anymore.
;)-->
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Steve!
Yeah, if I could switch my bowling score with my gulf score, I'd be happier.
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pjroberge
Wiewill was a false prophet who was no more than a student, but allowed himself to be thought of more highly than his actual calling was.
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Ham
Hi Pat! Glad to see you back.
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diazbro
Well lets put this into perspective. Much of what we know today about VPW wasn't known during his reign as prez of TWI and even until after his death. And even until the creation of WayDale and GS Cafe ! During that time not much was revealed about the sources of his books, why he chose to self-publish, his education, and associated past with other key figures in Way history. In fact he enjoyed an exalted status during his hey dey and the phrase "when we were kings" comes to mind when thinking of VPW's lifestyle during the 70s.
After his death details started to emerge and only later did some of us learn about the true nature of his death (which was deliberately not disclosed). This led to more examination which led to more questions and only after a very long while did we start to get a more accurate picture of VPW and some of the problems he had had all along.
So its only after his death that a reasonable examination of his life could begin because he was untouchable during the glory day. I distinctly recall being given the evil eye of reproof for asking questions about his PhD work. This was round 76 and no one and I mean NO ONE could question the (alleged) integrity of "Doctor Victor Paul Weirwille, The Teacher" and expect to be welcomed to Twig.
Some people want to remember VPW as a hot shot while others prefer the reality. Sure some get deep into the details that were kept secret and stay there which I don't think is so bad. Those so called "glory days" were whitewashed and we now know that which is why many are not pleased with those who would represent VPW as just "a human with the normal problems". VPW knew what he was doing and knew he was being given adulation and was taking advantage of it... He could have stopped the madness and not abused the trust people placed in him. But he did abuse this trust.
I recall once VPW teaching about those Corps and dedicated minsitry people who had been charged to minister to people and how serious a commitment it was for them to not betray the trust of those newcomers to the word:
MAtt. 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
VPw said that this was the fate of those in TWI (primarily the ordained) who took advantage of the trust. By his own standard its clear that he felt that those in a positon of authority were held to a much higher standard. You cannot let VPW off the hook with the "oh he was just a man" think. It doesn't fly - not even by his own teachings.
Interestingly this same verse was later used under LCM to apply to those seeking a departure from TWI. This verse was used to keep people from leaving and was something of a precursor to the infamous greasespot by midnight remark.
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ex10
Having been the recipient of VP's kindness is not a popular place to be as a poster here.
He wasn't quite the monster that he is portrayed as being. if he was, he probably wouldn't have gained thousands of followers, ya know?
It's really hard for those of us who knew him as a kind human, to reconcile all the crap. He was horrible, yet cool, all at the same time. How does that happen?
Dismissing him as a sex abusing cult leader doesn't help his victims any. He was way more complicated than that.
Yeah, he was horrible, but not always.
He was also kind, charming, fatherly and seemed to know what he was talking about. Maybe he was the epitome of evil incarnate. Maybe he was just one screwed up human being, who alot of people loved and trusted, who never had to answer for his dysfunction.
And unfortunately, it's too late to confront him and figure out why.....
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HCW
In terms of perspective, this is just not a true statement.
I'm not saying this to argue with anyone or speak in support of VP.
I, for one, have learned nothing new about VP from Waydale or GS cafe. There was 'never' a time during VP's tenure that he wasn't controversial. There were always critics, there were always x-way people, leaders, pre-corps era and WC grads and drop-outs that spoke agains him and the ministry. It continued to grow in the face of and in spite of all criticism.
The 'lessons learned' about VP's life since his death, as well as what I personally observed of his life as a first hand observer and a student of his, for me, primarily put into perspective and serve as eternal punctuation to a statement I'm sure we've all heard before:
"You can't put your trust in men; every time you do they will certainly let you down."
Old Testament History class in The Way Corps (which I do have an actual accredited degree of higher learning from) was a devastating disappointment for me. A deeper look into the lives of Biblical heroes than what is usually spoken of them from the pulpit was disappointing to me. They did all of the same things 'bad' people on the street did. Some did MUCH, much worse.
Diazbro's statement above is true from a matter of perspective, but from differing perspectives, people see him differently because they've experienced him differently.
Power corrupts humans. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Somebody didn't just 'make that up' one day saying, "Ooohh, that sounds cool, I'll coin that phrase." Very, very few are able to successfully wield power for long without being corrupted by it. The statement is a result of someone's valid experience.
We speak freely here in the cafe of VP's corruption. Fact is, however, that when he ran TWI it grew and when he turned over the reigns it shrunk to a level of relative insignificance.
All criticism speaks more of the critic than the criticised, no matter how true the criticism is. A person who flings mud on someone else, himself, has dirty hands.
Whenever we look 'up' to anything having to do with man in this life, we WILL be disappointed sooner or later.
It was more than the charisma of a snake oil salesman that built The Way ministry. People were healed. Crutches and wheelchairs were left behind at Rock of Ages. I have been healed, personally, I have personally healed others. I have found God faithful as VP said He (God) would be. I have found in VP, that in his flesh, there is no good thing, as the Apostle Paul wrote was the case in himself. That was part of my experience in TWI.
Nothing in this world is all that it's cracked up to be. I learned that during my experience with VP and TWI. I 've since had opportunities to observe other 'lofty' individuals who are all the same as VP - FLAWED. Myself included. (in the flawed category
)
Whatever your perspective on VP, I believe it is healthy to know and accept the fact that there are differing perspectives.
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Mike
Well said HCW! I wish I had more time to echo your comments. You too ex10.
:)-->
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justloafing
I for one knew nothing of what was going with vp or lcm. I had heard of rumblings but they were never said or put in front of my face as fact. I also had some gut feelings things were not as clean as what was let on to be. I left 18 years ago knowing nothing of what was going on as fact. I also still did some things and believed some things that twi taught us was right. Other things I did not do anymore. Still waybrained for 12 or 13 years.
Bump ahead to when I found WayDale. I logged on and went straight to chat. Not having known what really happened at twi I was asking why everyone was complaining and acting so hurt and told them to get over it. Well you can imagine the reception I recieved.
Well P**l A***n was there on the chat and invited me to a private chat. Asked who I was and I told him. He asked if I would go to the forums and read what had happened. So I did.
I read until 3 or 4 in the morning. Called off work the next day and got up around 6 and read more. Not only did I read things that I had thought maybe happening but other things I never thought happened even though they happened to me (the mental abuse and the lies that were taught as fact ect......) I was humbled to say the least.
That is when I was really able to start and put alot of my thinking back together or in a better term redirect my thinking into a more positive way of seeing the world. Yes WayDale and Greasespot 1 have surley helped me more than twi ever could have. I just registered here at GS2 awhile back.
To think that some people know what happened while in twi is absurd. It takes places like WD and GS in a lot cases to bring forth the true evils of twi.As twi did to us (choke us almost to death) that is what I hope happens to them and I sure hope we are seeing the grip tighten around their throats. I hope the good people in twi get out of the way.
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justloafing
I see nothing good about vp or his henchmen. jmho
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Mike
justloafing,
It takes looking in the right places.
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Too Gray Now
I remember walking in on my Dad when he was with another woman when I was a teenager. I felt like someone had just hit me in the nuts – I was sick to my stomach.
I had “heard” that he was playing around – but I had no first hand evidence – and I did not WANT to find any either!! Certainly not THIS way!
But it happened. I was confronted with what I did not WANT to deal with. I had to stop defending his honor to my Mom’s accusations. He was worthy of at least some REAL contempt. He had earned it. He broke her heart. He betrayed her as well. He belittled himself.
Dealing with stuff like this can range from simple to devastating. Regardless, it still needs to be dealt with.
IMHO if people know about VP but still refuse to deal with the “bad” side or the “flesh” side of his personality… that says more about them, than him. If I am in denial – then it makes me part of the problem.
Denial is all about closing the eyes. Refusing to admit. Mrs. W. stayed with VP – She gave us just cause (those of us who did not SEE him do heinous things) to stay in denial. All of the corps saw plenty of “little” bits and pieces of damning evidence. She added to the strengthening of the denial needed by us “followers” to participate in the charade of TWI.
Who would ever think Mrs. W. did anything except help her husband by standing by him! Let’s look a little closer - True… she stayed with him. She gave him “cover”. She let it “happen” again and again by remaining silent. Denial helps NO one.
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