I recall grifter Vic telling us at an advanced class that God had intended for BG, VPW, and Oral Roberts to work together as a team...the evangelist, the teacher and the healer. Of course, of the three Vic was the only one to really "stand on the word", therefore God gave up on Oral and Billy and gave Vic the whole shootin' match! Yep, he really said that.
I recall grifter Vic telling us at an advanced class that God had intended for BG, VPW, and Oral Roberts to work together as a team...the evangelist, the teacher and the healer. Of course, of the three Vic was the only one to really "stand on the word", therefore God gave up on Oral and Billy and gave Vic the whole shootin' match! Yep, he really said that.
OMG!
LOL.
I wondered why the Way ministries and now the off shoots.. never made it to TV land. Even once a year, BG and the others made it.
Even the radio , (not some stupid local channnel show ) nope never . hmmm
the tv is evil like the internet I suppose they think so be afraid and fearful and stay away.. god is not able to handle it!!!
If money is not suppose to be a problem then what was the PROBLEM?
Billy Graham was widely considered to be one of the top Christian leaders in the world, therefore he had a wide audience that would tune him in...Veepee wierwille, on the other hand, was an obscure wannabe that was unknown to most Christians outside of his own little cult following. Most people who HAD heard of him, considered him to be the leader of a cult who promoted heretical teachings.
I believe VPW did allude to knowing Graham as well as Oral Roberts. I heard him say words to the effect of:
"Billy could have gotten them born again. Oral could have healed them. And I could have taught them the word". He then made it sound as if both of them forsook all this and went on their own out of ego.
And of course this left VPW to do it all on his own, and we should be so thankful he stood on the rightly divided word.
I recall grifter Vic telling us at an advanced class that God had intended for BG, VPW, and Oral Roberts to work together as a team...the evangelist, the teacher and the healer. Of course, of the three Vic was the only one to really "stand on the word", therefore God gave up on Oral and Billy and gave Vic the whole shootin' match! Yep, he really said that.
Groucho -- I was going to mention that too, but thought it was just something I had heard in the branch, back in Indiana. Thanks for validating it. :)-->
I know what ya mean coolchef...It's embarrassing to admit it, but I also recall sitting there going "wow, that's heavy man", with a little spittle running down my chin. I suppose that one reason that I am brutally honest, when posting my opinions of twi. Those bible thumpin' weasles got inside my head! I take that personally...and furthermore, the current bunch, led by Rozilla the rug muncher, are STILL crawling inside people's minds...like the alien slug that crawled into Chechov's ear, in Star Trek...they twist people's minds into self destructive servitude, destroying lives and destroying families...
...but going back to the topic of this thread :P--> I think Billy Graham is a fine man.
He came to San Diego a few years ago. I didnt' go see him because I was so newly out of twitville. But he seems to really have a heart for God and to preach wholeness to people, not condemnation or perfection.
He makes it a policy to not be alone in a room with a woman??
Sounds like he thinks all women are temptresses?
They might try something??
They might lie??
If a women is quiet and modestly dressed he could still be tempted??
Doesn't sound right to me - he sounds like a very old fashioned Christian man who thinks wommin are different - all they want to do is tempt somebody, all they think about is sex. Yes, some women are like that and also some men.
That's ONE consideration, but couldn't he also be trying to apply the verse in 1 Thes. that says avoid all appearance of evil? Any minister is a target, especially if they have fame and recognition. If Jimmy Swaggart had BG's policy maybe his ministry would've turned out different.
He makes it a policy to not be alone in a room with a woman??
Sounds like he thinks all women are temptresses?
They might try something??
They might lie??
If a women is quiet and modestly dressed he could still be tempted??
Doesn't sound right to me - he sounds like a very old fashioned Christian man who thinks wommin are different - all they want to do is tempt somebody, all they think about is sex. Yes, some women are like that and also some men.
I agree it sounds old-fashioned, but it is probably pretty practical. I don't think it's meant to belittle women or the character of women, but I think it is meant to acknowledge the problem of vulnerabilities in the indivuals being counseled and the ones doing the counseling.
He makes it a policy to not be alone in a room with a woman??
Sounds like he thinks all women are temptresses?
They might try something??
They might lie??
His policy is not to enter a hotel room first. he will always have someone else enter first to make sure no one is there. One time they found a woman and a photographer. Seems they were trying to start a little scandle.
He didn't ever want to do anything to hurt his ministry by distroying his testimony.
I think it's commendable that he goes to such lengths to protect the effect of his ministry and "avoiding all appearances of evil" also came to my mind.
More ministers should be like that. Think of how TWI would have ended up if THEIR ministers followed that policy...
He makes it a policy to not be alone in a room with a woman??
Sounds like he thinks all women are temptresses?
They might try something??
They might lie??
His policy is not to enter a hotel room first. he will always have someone else enter first to make sure no one is there. One time they found a woman and a photographer. Seems they were trying to start a little scandle.
He didn't ever want to do anything to hurt his ministry by distroying his testimony.
Ex-70s -You partly answered what my next question would have been: what sort of things occurred which precipitated Graham coming up with such a policy? What was going on throughout these Christian ministries to compel Graham to take such drastic precautions?
Perhaps he really did know VP, and others like him.
I did not follow his career very closely but, I remember when he went to Russia, may have been in the early seventies? Whenever it was, it was a big deal at the time for anybody to go there, especially if you were of the religious sort. Seems he came back quite a bit softer after seeing some of the bigger picture in the world..
As a sidelight, I remember when corps assignments were handed out at Emporia in 1978, one of my first corps roomies, 6th corps A.W. (Groucho, he was one of the four of us in that first room along with your old buddy David W.), was assigned to Russia. I never found of what if anything became of that. Of course I knew A.W spoke Russian, though I didn't know at that time what role Russian Christianity would play in my life.
As for BG's trip to Russia (then of course it was part of the Soviet Union) he ran into that controversy over what he said about religious persecution. But he did preach Jesus Christ.
His policy is not to ... to do anything to hurt his ministry by distroying his testimony.
There are lots of ministers and ministries that do that. I'm not sure of this but it may be a "prevailing wind" in christianity in America today. I used to attend a church where they even take it so far that they counsel all adults to avoid being alone with members of the opposite sex under any circumstance.
They counsel single adults to never go on a date alone, same with teen's, etc. They do cross gender counseling, although there is always a third party witness present during counseling sessions. They just do their best to never leave a man & woman alone together.
At first I tried to get with it. I began to feel like a hypocrite though because... I didn't make sure I was never alone with a store, so I wouldn't steal something, or make sure I took somebody with me to a movie so I didn't sneak into another theatre to see the movie again or see another one. I don't make sure there's a passenger so I don't speed or run a red light.
Sounded too much like sin consciousness and bondage to me. I think it still came back to me and what I will, or will not allow in my life.
Whereas I understand their thinking (which I see [overly simplified] as, if you avoid tempting situations, you won't sin), I honestly was a little offended when I came in once to meet with the senior pastor's wife on a personal matter and when I stepped into the room there was a third party there who wasn't even there to contribute - just witness.
I couldn't help but feel untrusted and was uncomfortable with speaking my personal beezwax in front of some 'person' whom I did not choose as a confidant. Then I felt a trust issue regarding the person, whom I had no personal knowledge of their trustWORTHYness.
There is a measure of propriety a minister must maintain to that does go above and beyond. There are steps one should take to avoid sin.
The problem I have with the concept is that I feel "don't be alone" lowers the bar of self control. Secular professional counselors counsel people alone 'all the time.' Yet ministers who claim to have God almighty on their side THEY gotta have a witness or they "don't go there."
Self control, or the lack thereof, is a disqualifying prequisite to Christian ministry in God's eyes. It IS in the book they teach from, is it not? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the pulpit.
I'm not speaking against Billy Graham or his ministry. I don't necessarily have a problem with taking extra steps to ensure things don't 'go astray.' BUT. I believe CircleGame's comment is way-legit. There is a percentage of people who will feel precisely like that.
How can you help but feel THEY don't trust YOU when they are the one with the position and ministry to lose.
Not that I DO have a major problem with it. I really don't think I'd have a problem with it at all if they took similar extra steps across the board. I don't like the focus it puts on sex. The six horniest years of my life were the 4 I spent in the way corps and two years as a W.O.W.!
Making it a POLICY to maintain your same marital status through the program, in practice, made people think MORE about being married than they otherwise, might. Overall I think it did more harm than good.
What extra steps do they take to ensure people don't steal at the mall or cheat, or fall to various other temptations? ... but we can't leave you alone w/sexual temptation??? If ministers hooked themselves up to a polygraph and projected the printout on a big screen (or even a little one) as they taught the "ineffable greatness of God's word," I think people could really get with that! (We have the technology.... :)--> )
OR. If they, as non profit organizations, confident that God will meet their needs in every way, sent personal letters to everyone in their congregations who have any type of financial need. If the letter said something to the effect of,
"God has blessed the ministry that serves you life with material abundance. We, your ministry staff are aware thay you may be in need of some financial help. Please prayerfully consider your actual need which is beyond your current means to supply and send us a number.
We will prayerfully consider every request and spend every penny of this abundance to help you, our congregation, because we realize that we have an adversary who, at times effects the lives of God's people, negatively."
It is very clear in Acts that a BIG piece of the rapid grown in the first century church was:
quote:
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts4:34, 35
When we see ministers and ministries taking the same level of "extra steps" to eliminate need among their own congregations as they do to eliminate extra-marital sex... THEN we'll see truly GREAT, sign, miracle & wonder producing ministries.
Billy Graham, by today's standards is one of the greatest ministers & his minstry is among the most wonderful. I believe God gets the most he can from people who say they love him and want to minister.
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OK trivia fans...who remembers this one?
I recall grifter Vic telling us at an advanced class that God had intended for BG, VPW, and Oral Roberts to work together as a team...the evangelist, the teacher and the healer. Of course, of the three Vic was the only one to really "stand on the word", therefore God gave up on Oral and Billy and gave Vic the whole shootin' match! Yep, he really said that.
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mj412
OMG!
LOL.
I wondered why the Way ministries and now the off shoots.. never made it to TV land. Even once a year, BG and the others made it.
Even the radio , (not some stupid local channnel show ) nope never . hmmm
the tv is evil like the internet I suppose they think so be afraid and fearful and stay away.. god is not able to handle it!!!
If money is not suppose to be a problem then what was the PROBLEM?
inability?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Billy Graham was widely considered to be one of the top Christian leaders in the world, therefore he had a wide audience that would tune him in...Veepee wierwille, on the other hand, was an obscure wannabe that was unknown to most Christians outside of his own little cult following. Most people who HAD heard of him, considered him to be the leader of a cult who promoted heretical teachings.
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Stayed Too Long
I believe VPW did allude to knowing Graham as well as Oral Roberts. I heard him say words to the effect of:
"Billy could have gotten them born again. Oral could have healed them. And I could have taught them the word". He then made it sound as if both of them forsook all this and went on their own out of ego.
And of course this left VPW to do it all on his own, and we should be so thankful he stood on the rightly divided word.
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waterbuffalo
Yes. Have it. Love it.
:)-->
Ex70s, rock on brotha!
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dmiller
Groucho -- I was going to mention that too, but thought it was just something I had heard in the branch, back in Indiana. Thanks for validating it.
:)-->
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i also remember dr.vee pee saying that at the ac in gunnison. and ya know what? at the time i agreed with his perverted thinking
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
thank God thank God we're free at last!lol
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GrouchoMarxJr
I know what ya mean coolchef...It's embarrassing to admit it, but I also recall sitting there going "wow, that's heavy man", with a little spittle running down my chin. I suppose that one reason that I am brutally honest, when posting my opinions of twi. Those bible thumpin' weasles got inside my head! I take that personally...and furthermore, the current bunch, led by Rozilla the rug muncher, are STILL crawling inside people's minds...like the alien slug that crawled into Chechov's ear, in Star Trek...they twist people's minds into self destructive servitude, destroying lives and destroying families...
...but going back to the topic of this thread
:P--> I think Billy Graham is a fine man.
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def59
As great a preacher as Billy is, he will tell you how he almost lost his family because he was on the road so much.
He tells the story of coming home after a crusade and his son Franklin asking who he was.
BG changed his schedule after that.
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Mercedes Benz
I think he's the real deal, meaning, I think he really has a heart for God.
I remember hearing the whole thing about VPW knowing BG and Oral and the way I heard it they divided due to their views on the trinity.
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Belle
I don't have anything to add, but I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks, y'all.
I do remember some stories about BG, Oral Roberts & vee pee, but not in enough detail to post.
Priceless! Thanks, Kevlar!
:D-->
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Nottawayfer
He came to San Diego a few years ago. I didnt' go see him because I was so newly out of twitville. But he seems to really have a heart for God and to preach wholeness to people, not condemnation or perfection.
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def59
If the chronology fits, vp still taught the trinity when the 3 allegedly split, if they ever knew each other to begin with.
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CircleGame
He makes it a policy to not be alone in a room with a woman??
Sounds like he thinks all women are temptresses?
They might try something??
They might lie??
If a women is quiet and modestly dressed he could still be tempted??
Doesn't sound right to me - he sounds like a very old fashioned Christian man who thinks wommin are different - all they want to do is tempt somebody, all they think about is sex. Yes, some women are like that and also some men.
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johniam
That's ONE consideration, but couldn't he also be trying to apply the verse in 1 Thes. that says avoid all appearance of evil? Any minister is a target, especially if they have fame and recognition. If Jimmy Swaggart had BG's policy maybe his ministry would've turned out different.
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Nottawayfer
I agree it sounds old-fashioned, but it is probably pretty practical. I don't think it's meant to belittle women or the character of women, but I think it is meant to acknowledge the problem of vulnerabilities in the indivuals being counseled and the ones doing the counseling.
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ex70sHouston
His policy is not to enter a hotel room first. he will always have someone else enter first to make sure no one is there. One time they found a woman and a photographer. Seems they were trying to start a little scandle.
He didn't ever want to do anything to hurt his ministry by distroying his testimony.
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Belle
I think it's commendable that he goes to such lengths to protect the effect of his ministry and "avoiding all appearances of evil" also came to my mind.
More ministers should be like that. Think of how TWI would have ended up if THEIR ministers followed that policy...
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def59
Imagine a man of God wants to remain virtous and he gets criticized for it?
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TheInvisibleDan
Ex-70s -You partly answered what my next question would have been: what sort of things occurred which precipitated Graham coming up with such a policy? What was going on throughout these Christian ministries to compel Graham to take such drastic precautions?
Perhaps he really did know VP, and others like him.
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Ham
I did not follow his career very closely but, I remember when he went to Russia, may have been in the early seventies? Whenever it was, it was a big deal at the time for anybody to go there, especially if you were of the religious sort. Seems he came back quite a bit softer after seeing some of the bigger picture in the world..
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Lifted Up
As a sidelight, I remember when corps assignments were handed out at Emporia in 1978, one of my first corps roomies, 6th corps A.W. (Groucho, he was one of the four of us in that first room along with your old buddy David W.), was assigned to Russia. I never found of what if anything became of that. Of course I knew A.W spoke Russian, though I didn't know at that time what role Russian Christianity would play in my life.
As for BG's trip to Russia (then of course it was part of the Soviet Union) he ran into that controversy over what he said about religious persecution. But he did preach Jesus Christ.
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HCW
There are lots of ministers and ministries that do that. I'm not sure of this but it may be a "prevailing wind" in christianity in America today. I used to attend a church where they even take it so far that they counsel all adults to avoid being alone with members of the opposite sex under any circumstance.
They counsel single adults to never go on a date alone, same with teen's, etc. They do cross gender counseling, although there is always a third party witness present during counseling sessions. They just do their best to never leave a man & woman alone together.
At first I tried to get with it. I began to feel like a hypocrite though because... I didn't make sure I was never alone with a store, so I wouldn't steal something, or make sure I took somebody with me to a movie so I didn't sneak into another theatre to see the movie again or see another one. I don't make sure there's a passenger so I don't speed or run a red light.
Sounded too much like sin consciousness and bondage to me. I think it still came back to me and what I will, or will not allow in my life.
Whereas I understand their thinking (which I see [overly simplified] as, if you avoid tempting situations, you won't sin), I honestly was a little offended when I came in once to meet with the senior pastor's wife on a personal matter and when I stepped into the room there was a third party there who wasn't even there to contribute - just witness.
I couldn't help but feel untrusted and was uncomfortable with speaking my personal beezwax in front of some 'person' whom I did not choose as a confidant. Then I felt a trust issue regarding the person, whom I had no personal knowledge of their trustWORTHYness.
There is a measure of propriety a minister must maintain to that does go above and beyond. There are steps one should take to avoid sin.
The problem I have with the concept is that I feel "don't be alone" lowers the bar of self control. Secular professional counselors counsel people alone 'all the time.' Yet ministers who claim to have God almighty on their side THEY gotta have a witness or they "don't go there."
Self control, or the lack thereof, is a disqualifying prequisite to Christian ministry in God's eyes. It IS in the book they teach from, is it not? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the pulpit.
I'm not speaking against Billy Graham or his ministry. I don't necessarily have a problem with taking extra steps to ensure things don't 'go astray.' BUT. I believe CircleGame's comment is way-legit. There is a percentage of people who will feel precisely like that.
How can you help but feel THEY don't trust YOU when they are the one with the position and ministry to lose.
Not that I DO have a major problem with it. I really don't think I'd have a problem with it at all if they took similar extra steps across the board. I don't like the focus it puts on sex. The six horniest years of my life were the 4 I spent in the way corps and two years as a W.O.W.!
Making it a POLICY to maintain your same marital status through the program, in practice, made people think MORE about being married than they otherwise, might. Overall I think it did more harm than good.
What extra steps do they take to ensure people don't steal at the mall or cheat, or fall to various other temptations? ... but we can't leave you alone w/sexual temptation??? If ministers hooked themselves up to a polygraph and projected the printout on a big screen (or even a little one) as they taught the "ineffable greatness of God's word," I think people could really get with that! (We have the technology....
:)--> )
OR. If they, as non profit organizations, confident that God will meet their needs in every way, sent personal letters to everyone in their congregations who have any type of financial need. If the letter said something to the effect of,
"God has blessed the ministry that serves you life with material abundance. We, your ministry staff are aware thay you may be in need of some financial help. Please prayerfully consider your actual need which is beyond your current means to supply and send us a number.
We will prayerfully consider every request and spend every penny of this abundance to help you, our congregation, because we realize that we have an adversary who, at times effects the lives of God's people, negatively."
It is very clear in Acts that a BIG piece of the rapid grown in the first century church was:
When we see ministers and ministries taking the same level of "extra steps" to eliminate need among their own congregations as they do to eliminate extra-marital sex... THEN we'll see truly GREAT, sign, miracle & wonder producing ministries.
Billy Graham, by today's standards is one of the greatest ministers & his minstry is among the most wonderful. I believe God gets the most he can from people who say they love him and want to minister.
Its a good thing He's patient with us all.
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