By settling out of court and at the last minute, TWI forever left everything open to debate. Whatever they gained is clouded by the fact that settling can mean just about anything - an admission of guilt on all or some of the charges of the suit, a desire to avoid publicity, whatever.
It allowed for the records to be sealed. No one involved can discuss the details.
The Way says they put a high value on "truth". By settling and allowing LCM to resign and leave they effectively locked up whatever truth there was to this.
If the allegations were true, there's no guarantee that they "fixed" anything, only that they dealt with this one set of allegations. That effectively allows them to move on and present the face that it was a singular one time event, outside of their control at the time.
The Way continues to avoid any opportunity to deal with the issues that this brought up-their beliefs about pre-marital sex, the obligations of marriage between a man and a women, the role and responsibility of their ordained leadership, adultery from a biblical and social viewpoint. Many items that would be simple teachings formed from clear statements have never been deal with, that I know of.
I'm sure it was a hard pill to swallow for them but I'd call it a move to cut their losses, a stop-gap measure taken to limit the damages. It gave them an opportunity to get LCM's problems off the plate of the ministry and disassociate themselves from it.
It really goes to show how the Way thinks and works, when push comes to shove. If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone.
Good analysis - sounds like you've been watching Fox News at night like we do! ;-)
I think that by TWI having a settlement out of court it also gave them a big opportunity to do more DAMAGE CONTROL. They wanted people to think that they did it to save money on lawyers or protect the ministry against the 'evil doings' of the Allens. There were spins, at least in my area, where it was said that LCM was 'framed' and even as far as the lawsuit - the whole thing - being nothing more than a rumor.
Of course those innies who asked about it were told that they'd get more info on a "need to know basis" (which as know means "none of your damn business!"). Also, I know of cases where some innies, who did some homework about the lawsuit/settlement terms on the internet, and then confronted their local leadership about the "truth" - they were in deep doggie doo just for Google-ing about it. I remember some of them posting on Waydale shortly before it shut down - another term of the settlement.
Socks - you hit the nail right on the head about TWI when you said "If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone." They probably wish they'd seen LCM as a bigger liability before they did...
Hey - WHY DIDN'T THEY SEE LCM AS A LIABILITY SOONER?
I mean, they let the fox watch the chicken coop basically, didn't they?
Where was their in-depth spiritual perception then?
Hey - WHY DIDN'T THEY SEE LCM AS A LIABILITY SOONER?
Because he was the BOSS.
From my armchair, I see Rosalie as wanting the top spot from the moment she decided to come to HQ. I'm thinking that lawsuit gave RR the opening to run her agenda and grab to top spot. I'm willing to bet LCM's leaving was as much a coup for RR as anything else.
I mean, who, in the top leadership positions in TWI "worked their way up LESS than she?
One of the first things I ever heard of her was seeing her standing next to VP & him saying how "wonderful" she was.
She who:
was never a WOW,
not a Corps Grad,
did she even ever run a twig?
She waltzed into HQ, They gave her a position running several departments. They "invented" 'The University of Life' for her to run, allowed her unfettered discretion to edit VPW's Way Corps teachings. From her 'day one' at HQ she seemed to have as much power as ANYONE else; even VPW. VP was usually the last stop for anything he was involved in, but when it came to anything RR was involved in that had to do w/VP SHE was 'da man.'
Most people were assigned housing when they came to HQ, or they found an apartment, or if they had it like that they bought a house. When RR came, Way Builders BUILT her a house. Totally custom. Swimming pool, privacy fence and all along a road in NK where there is a row of very nice homes.
Hmm... Now VP's dead, LCM's gone, Rosalie's Pres. and best friends with Craig's wife, who doesn't live with HIM.
Rosalie's in depth perception was "If I play my cards right, I can run this joint. Then I can get PAID way beyond what I could EVER command in a "real world" job.
Twi used to criticise senators, congressmen, and US presidents saying, "Why would a guy spend millions of dollars to get a job that only pays a quarter mil per year for only four years? There must be something more they want - - POWER."
If Rosalie had it like that to just build a house wherever she wanted why come to New Knoxville?
She was actually never even qualified, Biblically, for ministry leadership, "one who runs his home well, having his children subject to him with all gravity."
Well, I sure do, Chas. :)--> I can do an easy hour of Talking Heads. ;)-->
quote:
I think that by TWI having a settlement out of court it also gave them a big opportunity to do more DAMAGE CONTROL. They wanted people to think that they did it to save money on lawyers or protect the ministry against the 'evil doings' of the Allens. There were spins, at least in my area, where it was said that LCM was 'framed' and even as far as the lawsuit - the whole thing - being nothing more than a rumor.
That is incredible, isn't it? One year Craig's there, next years he's gone. Does anyone "in" wonder why? What happened? He steps down, then he steps out. How come? What happened to his marriage? What's Donna doing? Can we help? What can we do to help? Shut up? Stop asking? Okay, thanks, Ms. Pope'n'Bark. :D-->
The headline in the St. Mary Leader should have been:
"Way Ministy Won't Stand - But They Will Settle!"
quote:
Of course those innies who asked about it were told that they'd get more info on a "need to know basis" (which as know means "none of your damn business!"). Also, I know of cases where some innies, who did some homework about the lawsuit/settlement terms on the internet, and then confronted their local leadership about the "truth" - they were in deep doggie doo just for Google-ing about it. I remember some of them posting on Waydale shortly before it shut down - another term of the settlement.
All they had to do was say "the court records were sealed as a result of the settlement. What the suit was about is a matter of public record though, so here's what (these people) were accused of, here's what we did about it, now we can't talk about it. That's what the Way's legal counsel recommended, or that's what Craig decided, or whatever." There's no spiritual spin to put on it that makes it better. It just was what it was. They could easily add "we got in deep doo-doo. We're trying to work out what to do about it ministry wide. We'll get back to everyone as we have more information and we will get back to it with you."
That's the most damning thing about it all. The President of the Way gets sued, goes to court, sort of, and settles, steps down along the way and finally leaves. You'd think that would be Big News.
As Pastors they get an "F", no do over. "The truth shall make you free - indeed!" Where's the truth? Hidden.
quote:
Socks - you hit the nail right on the head about TWI when you said "If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone." They probably wish they'd seen LCM as a bigger liability before they did...
Hey - WHY DIDN'T THEY SEE LCM AS A LIABILITY SOONER? I mean, they let the fox watch the chicken coop basically, didn't they?
IMO, because they're basically losers. Jesus said we'd always have the "poor" amongst us, and as long as there's standing grads in the Way we're guaranteed of that. The people who hang on and try to band-aid that broken down wagon of a company aren't exactly what I'd call Type A personalities, they're people committed to a life of reduced expectations. Their current BOT's are prime examples of that. Whatever spark there was in their eyes has long been glazed over by ritual failure. If anyone really hated a Way leader all they have to do is hope they stay "in". That's punishment enough. The people who don't know anything about what's gone on are sitting ducks. They don't know it but the best they can hope for is that someone else won't "rise up" and do worse than their predecessor. The door's wide open for that to happen.
As for Rosalie, and where she comes off from - it's money. She was wealthy coming in to the Way and had a veneer of respectability and "class". Power and money was her entree' to leadership in the Way. The fact she's been able to keep it and keep her job (which appears to stay on at the Way Nash regardless of the position) says a lot about her own savvy and politcal abilities. But she's not a leader, she's a party planner with money.
Historically the Way will suck bugs off a log of your choice and call it steak if you've got money and power and then after they've got your money they'll kick your foot out and say it's theirs. She's been jerking them around for years. She does'nt just navigate deadly water well, she cuts it like a Great White in a seal wetsuit. I wouldn't get within 10 feet of her without a tape recorder, a camera and a young-gun lawyer out to make a rep for themself.
It's a very friendly bunch leading the Way...they exemplify greed, pride ....All that stuff that Jesus talked about so warmly.
But in his absence, ahem, any WOman o' god will do y'know.
I'd bet a dollar, good old American cash money, right now, that Ms. Rivenbark was of STRONG voice urging for a settlement.
I could see Martindale spluttering and squirming and trying to keep his head up. "Well dernit! Nobody's going to take this ministry down! I may have-I didn't, I mean, doggonit! I ain't gonna - uh..."
"Waaa-hl now hawney, maybee we bettah think about this fo-ah a spell, and considah whaht mawght be bay-est, for the MIN-ISTRY, not to may-nchun uthahs that mawght get in-vawlved in this unsawghtly aff-ayah..."
I mean, LCM's got as much sense as a hamster in a pig pen. I can't help but figure he was shown.....a Bettah Way. :D-->
I remember some of them posting on Waydale shortly before it shut down - another term of the settlement.
(((sigh))) And Yet Another Urban Rumor keeps rearing its ugly head.
((*ahem*)) Waydale was NOT shut down due to any demand from TWI as a part of any settlement.
Exhibit A - They said as much themselves openly. They just got tired of having to keep running the Waydale board, as it was draining from their lives and after their *victory* (via the settlement), they wanted to live out their lives quietly. (Anybody running any message board can readily identify with this, .... right Paw? ;)-->)
Exhibit B - Uhhh, now could someone please tell me how the (Ace Ventura mode) **lo-o-o-ser** can legally set the terms of the settlement? "Better not bring forward your very damning testimony that can blow my case clean out of the water! Settle now on my terms, ... or .... or ... I'll get *very* upset!!"
TWI was the loser. They were the winners. Winners get to pick the conditions. The losers get to whine. ... That's how it works in our wonderful American legal system.
The people who hang on and try to band-aid that broken down wagon of a company aren't exactly what I'd call Type A personalities, they're people committed to a life of reduced expectations. Their current BOT's are prime examples of that. Whatever spark there was in their eyes has long been glazed over by ritual failure.
Derail this one all you want! That's why it's here, but I do agree with Bob that talk of RFR is not a derail. :D-->
I'm shocked though....she NEVER had any WC training? Never had to scrub toilets or work in the kitchen? TWI built her house for her? WTF!!!
And:
quote:
Of course those innies who asked about it were told that they'd get more info on a "need to know basis" (which as know means "none of your damn business!"). Also, I know of cases where some innies, who did some homework about the lawsuit/settlement terms on the internet, and then confronted their local leadership about the "truth" - they were in deep doggie doo just for Google-ing about it.
I didn't post about it, but I certainly got in deep doggie doo for looking it up on the internet. --> Gimme my sign....
Rosey-tells-lies did indeed do 1(one) year of Wake Kork trainn-ing, SIR, with the Special, later Family, kork 2. She did first year with her no-account, sneak-thief son. He was busted that year or the next, can't remember. She then was put in charge, along with B*b W*negarner, of pfal 77. She became so damn important that she did not do a final in-rez kork year. So she is technically a kork "wreck"-cognized kork type person.
The lawsuit activity represents a method to address the abuse within TWI. Its not like TWI , its leaders, past or present are ever going to acknowledge just how whacked they are and were. I've seen lawsuits initiated over far less serious situations. Guess its cool for someone to sue McDonalds over hot coffee ? Now THATS a legitimate use of the legal system ? I don't hear people whining about that or the woman who tried to sue Wendy's over a finger she planted in the chili ? Where is the righteous indignation about that ? But someone DARES sue the one and only great church...and even worse...without first coming to Gspot and asking for general approval ? The nerve of some people to exclude others ! Gspot is not a judicial system and no one (former way or not) needs the approval of this forum to address the problems in their life using standard legal remedies.
I don't think its this huge problem for people to accept that someone can litigate for medical malpractice yet when someone goes after TWI its like they just have to be mercenary SOBS with no other goal than to "steal the ABS". How convenient a "defense" for those who continue to worship at the altar of VPW and TWI. Anyone who would oppose those who sue TWI are either still in love with their lives as a Wayfer or are just simply jealous that someone might get a payday out of it while other Wayfers are left high and dry. Oh boo hoo. If you don't like it that people are going after TWI then sue those people ! In the meantime let the courts handle it.
TWI was the loser. They were the winners. Winners get to pick the conditions. The losers get to whine. ... That's how it works in our wonderful American legal system.
It's not always so cut and dried. From a legal perspective, settlement means there is no (declared) winner or loser. Both sides come to an agreement.
Even if a person has a pretty sure case there may be reasons they'd prefer to settle and to do so they may have to give some things the other side wants. Some of the reasons may be that even a sure case has been lost on occasion. Even one that has been won has been changed or the award lessened on appeal. Sometimes it's just not worth any more time, expense, emotional turmoil even if you could "win" more money than you settled for. And also when you win a civil lawsuit you don't walk out of court with the money. You get a judgement against the other party. You still have to collect to get the money. There are delaying tactics they can use to delay or avoid paying. Especially when there are different corporate interests that legally own the money.
When you settle, it's paid, no appeal, done, finished. So even if you're the "winner" you might decide to give up something to settle.
Since this IS a discussion on "lawsuits"..could someone please tell me if the Parker suit was definitely settled out of court as was the Allen suit?? I never did hear the specifics of what eventually did happen..thanx!! JJ
Valid points all. Yet that paragraph of mine was put in the context of Waydale not forced to shut down due to any demand by TWI. Plus also, (if I'm not mistaken) TWI called for the settlement, thus putting them, at least, at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes for setting terms. ... Ie., *they* blinked.
The site was still shut down voluntarily by them, with no legal force/effect put upon them by TWI.
The site was still shut down voluntarily by them, with no legal force/effect put upon them by TWI.
I know of no reason to believe otherwise, but you don't know that. If shutting down Waydale was part of the settlement, and the parties were not allowed to reveal the terms, then the Allens would pretty much have to say that they were shutting it down for personal reasons.
It is completely possible that the Allens would have shut down Waydale anyway and that doing so was also part of the settlement. It is possible that they would otherwise have kept it going, in a less active sense, more like GS, but agreed to shut it down as part of the settlement. It is possible that shutting down Waydale wasn't part of the settlment at all. Unless you are privy to the terms of the settlement, you flat don't know.
Like I said, Paul stated in a post a few years back the reason why he was shutting down Waydale, and I saw no reason to believe otherwise, including the legal details you just gave.
That might be legally true in this case (the law being quite complex/contradictory at times); it just doesn't make any sense to me that the losing side (or were plainly about to lose), ie., TWI would then dictate terms. The Allens had the upper hand in that situation. ... I mean, what was TWI going to do if the Allens didn't take the 'settlement'? Continue with a case that was a sure loser for them? That's why it doesn't make sense to me, legal or otherwise.
But perhaps, like you said, I flat don't know (for sure). But I'd almost be willing to make a wager.
Yet Another Reason that I have for not going for the 'Shut Down the Website as part of the Settlement' argument.
At the time, TWI vs. Allen was headed towards the trial stage, if not already there. Now, one would think that in that situation, TWI would have more pressing things on their minds than just shutting down some critical site. ... Ohh, like avoiding the trial. Period.
Besides, the website wasn't part and parcel of the Allens suit against TWI anyway.
You mentioned that RFR came from money. That very well may be true. I do not know. However, I sat in the back rows as a grad when she first took PFAL in 1973. I remember some of other grads said that she was their high school English teacher.
My mom happened to be a high school English teacher. It seems that profession is a odd career choice for someone coming from a position of being independently wealthy, unless one had a passion for teaching, language / literature or...being in control.
You're right, oen. I can't speak to her dollar value, so I'll ammend my statement, AKA "incorrect". Some public GS facts were collected HERE
on GS as well as some other stuff.
Wealth is more of a relative term. VPW gathered a group in the 60's and 70's that, for the most part, were too young to have accumlated assets of any value unless their families had it. So if you were young and just starting out you had all your "earning years" ahead of you.
To digress from the Lawsuit topic, this deals with a twist in the development of Way culture, if there is a such a topic and I guess there could be. It relates to the money topic and people in the Way over the years, so I guess this should get a BIG PARENTHESIS. --> Given that VPW chose to move towards a younger audience, less entrenched in social and religious systems and committments, he dealt with that group's growth in an interesting way. Central was "the Word" and the "movement of the Word" through PFAL, WOW outreach, Corps programs and witnessing outreach focused on local Twig fellowships. All of that was implemented while most of his congregation were in their 20's. If you were 20 say in 1970 when you took PFAL you were all of 35 when he died. So those people grew up through young adulthood while in the Way. If they went WOW, entered the Way Corps and accepted field assignments with the Way for a few years that was their "career". Many people who began that sequence didn't have careers or plans when they entered it. That became their career path and training.
Why this is significant is because it helped to form the backbone of what the Way's people were in relation to the rest of society. Now, I'm not a social scientist or academic so I can't take this too far - for instance in relation to the demographic group and a comparison based on careers, events, geography, etc./other factors. But, at least, I think I can see that in the Way, whole groups of people developed their life's plans and goals within the educational, service and employment opportunities within the Way itself. I might describe it as "The Way and it's teachings grew into the people AND the people grew into the Way". People who formed the foundation of the Way's "leadership" at all of it's Way Tree levels made activity in the Way their "careers" and in many cases only pursued developing "secular" careers haphazardly, mostly to support their work in the Way and with "the Word". Part time or full time ministers, putting bread on the table, roof over head and gas in the car, but not much more.
VPW realized this, no question. He felt that in order to have people committing full time to "moving the Word over the world" they'd need to remain as unattached to other committments as possible. So there was a conflict that played itself out in the Way's growth - the lifestyle of perference wasn't a person with say, 4-6 years of education, a degree, advanced degrees, a career based on several years of working vigorously through a entry level positions towards advancement, or the hard first years of building your own business, a client base, reputation and references to fuel a successful future. All those years were focused on involvement in the Way's programs and classes.
Which-in and of themselves weren't necessarily a bad thing. Grouped as they were in fast succession though, they filled the first 10-15-20 years of many people's adulthood. One year rolls into the next. The progression to go through the Way Corps program accounted for many years eventually - example - 2-3 years joining the Way and completing it's foundational classes, 1 year prior in a sancationed program like WOW, 1 year residence, 1 field year, 1 year in residence and graduation, then first assignment. That right there could account for 7-8 years of a person's life. While you were doing that you weren't developing other things, that was what you did.
What it boils down to is a couple things at least - if you had a career coming into the Way there was a strong likelihood that you'd stop pursuing it once and if you entered this sequence of events. During and after you may or may not reenter it or continue on in any other. If you didn't have anything going before you started it your next opportunity to would be after graduation. If you accepted assignments after graduation you had a decision to make - what and where to go with your life. The tendency was to be sent out to a city somewhere, where a new sequence began. Outreach, meetings, class quotas, classes, etc. all of which made demands on your time - no surprise there because your life's career choice was to commit to the Way and it's outreach of "the Word. . It was common for people in that situation to try and get or develop part-time employment. Results varied, as you'd expect. Which brings up back to where we started. Most of the Way's people didn't have large personal assets at that point unless they got them from their families, if they hadn't invested any time in building them.
What this has to do with (***yawwwwwn****) :D--> Rosalie Rivenbark is that I would place her "money" status in relation to the body of members in the Way as a whole. Whether through inheritance or earned, her assets and background would have been substantially more significant than the Average Joe or Jane who'd joined the way, middle-class, without outside support or funding and putting all of their years into the Way, who had to sell or spend what they had to do whatever it was they did.
I have no question in my mind (but I'll allow others might) that VPW saw this playing out. He knew what he was building. So to him, an older person with education, experience, assets, a career of any kind and the connections you develop through those things, was of value. He often encouraged those people diffenently than people he considered having nothing going for them. For those people he seemed to encourage they "get something going" by making the Way's programs their focus. It was a kind of caste system, in a way. If you're an Average Joe, do this. If you're a Little Better Quality Jane, do that. Some people he kid-gloved. Others he never even really knew. This is the "era" of the Way in which R.R. entered the scene.
A statement by one of the trustees in the 80's says a lot - "20% of our people give 80% of what the Way brings in". His point was several - not everyone "abundantly shares", not everyone tithes, but there is a fairly steady flow of contributions that comes from people who 1)"are faithful" and 2) have a lot to give. Whether that was true or not, I don't know for sure but the guy that said it would have known.
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Steve!
Why not name this thread what it *really* is?
"Here is a thread just for om just so that he won't derail other threads with his extremely narrow, biased, screwed up point of view".
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socks
My armchair analysis:
By settling out of court and at the last minute, TWI forever left everything open to debate. Whatever they gained is clouded by the fact that settling can mean just about anything - an admission of guilt on all or some of the charges of the suit, a desire to avoid publicity, whatever.
It allowed for the records to be sealed. No one involved can discuss the details.
The Way says they put a high value on "truth". By settling and allowing LCM to resign and leave they effectively locked up whatever truth there was to this.
If the allegations were true, there's no guarantee that they "fixed" anything, only that they dealt with this one set of allegations. That effectively allows them to move on and present the face that it was a singular one time event, outside of their control at the time.
The Way continues to avoid any opportunity to deal with the issues that this brought up-their beliefs about pre-marital sex, the obligations of marriage between a man and a women, the role and responsibility of their ordained leadership, adultery from a biblical and social viewpoint. Many items that would be simple teachings formed from clear statements have never been deal with, that I know of.
I'm sure it was a hard pill to swallow for them but I'd call it a move to cut their losses, a stop-gap measure taken to limit the damages. It gave them an opportunity to get LCM's problems off the plate of the ministry and disassociate themselves from it.
It really goes to show how the Way thinks and works, when push comes to shove. If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone.
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ChasUFarley
Socks --
Good analysis - sounds like you've been watching Fox News at night like we do! ;-)
I think that by TWI having a settlement out of court it also gave them a big opportunity to do more DAMAGE CONTROL. They wanted people to think that they did it to save money on lawyers or protect the ministry against the 'evil doings' of the Allens. There were spins, at least in my area, where it was said that LCM was 'framed' and even as far as the lawsuit - the whole thing - being nothing more than a rumor.
Of course those innies who asked about it were told that they'd get more info on a "need to know basis" (which as know means "none of your damn business!"). Also, I know of cases where some innies, who did some homework about the lawsuit/settlement terms on the internet, and then confronted their local leadership about the "truth" - they were in deep doggie doo just for Google-ing about it. I remember some of them posting on Waydale shortly before it shut down - another term of the settlement.
Socks - you hit the nail right on the head about TWI when you said "If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone." They probably wish they'd seen LCM as a bigger liability before they did...
Hey - WHY DIDN'T THEY SEE LCM AS A LIABILITY SOONER?
I mean, they let the fox watch the chicken coop basically, didn't they?
Where was their in-depth spiritual perception then?
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HCW
Because he was the BOSS.
From my armchair, I see Rosalie as wanting the top spot from the moment she decided to come to HQ. I'm thinking that lawsuit gave RR the opening to run her agenda and grab to top spot. I'm willing to bet LCM's leaving was as much a coup for RR as anything else.
I mean, who, in the top leadership positions in TWI "worked their way up LESS than she?
One of the first things I ever heard of her was seeing her standing next to VP & him saying how "wonderful" she was.
She who:
was never a WOW,
not a Corps Grad,
did she even ever run a twig?
She waltzed into HQ, They gave her a position running several departments. They "invented" 'The University of Life' for her to run, allowed her unfettered discretion to edit VPW's Way Corps teachings. From her 'day one' at HQ she seemed to have as much power as ANYONE else; even VPW. VP was usually the last stop for anything he was involved in, but when it came to anything RR was involved in that had to do w/VP SHE was 'da man.'
Most people were assigned housing when they came to HQ, or they found an apartment, or if they had it like that they bought a house. When RR came, Way Builders BUILT her a house. Totally custom. Swimming pool, privacy fence and all along a road in NK where there is a row of very nice homes.
Hmm... Now VP's dead, LCM's gone, Rosalie's Pres. and best friends with Craig's wife, who doesn't live with HIM.
Rosalie's in depth perception was "If I play my cards right, I can run this joint. Then I can get PAID way beyond what I could EVER command in a "real world" job.
Twi used to criticise senators, congressmen, and US presidents saying, "Why would a guy spend millions of dollars to get a job that only pays a quarter mil per year for only four years? There must be something more they want - - POWER."
If Rosalie had it like that to just build a house wherever she wanted why come to New Knoxville?
She was actually never even qualified, Biblically, for ministry leadership, "one who runs his home well, having his children subject to him with all gravity."
Really? Rosalie? Her children subject to her?
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ChasUFarley
fer real?
So, what qualified her to be on staff or in a leadership position?
(Sorry Belle - I know I may derail this thread, too...)
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socks
Well, I sure do, Chas.
:)--> I can do an easy hour of Talking Heads. 
;)-->
That is incredible, isn't it? One year Craig's there, next years he's gone. Does anyone "in" wonder why? What happened? He steps down, then he steps out. How come? What happened to his marriage? What's Donna doing? Can we help? What can we do to help? Shut up? Stop asking? Okay, thanks, Ms. Pope'n'Bark.
:D-->
The headline in the St. Mary Leader should have been:
"Way Ministy Won't Stand - But They Will Settle!"
All they had to do was say "the court records were sealed as a result of the settlement. What the suit was about is a matter of public record though, so here's what (these people) were accused of, here's what we did about it, now we can't talk about it. That's what the Way's legal counsel recommended, or that's what Craig decided, or whatever." There's no spiritual spin to put on it that makes it better. It just was what it was. They could easily add "we got in deep doo-doo. We're trying to work out what to do about it ministry wide. We'll get back to everyone as we have more information and we will get back to it with you."
That's the most damning thing about it all. The President of the Way gets sued, goes to court, sort of, and settles, steps down along the way and finally leaves. You'd think that would be Big News.
As Pastors they get an "F", no do over. "The truth shall make you free - indeed!" Where's the truth? Hidden.
IMO, because they're basically losers. Jesus said we'd always have the "poor" amongst us, and as long as there's standing grads in the Way we're guaranteed of that. The people who hang on and try to band-aid that broken down wagon of a company aren't exactly what I'd call Type A personalities, they're people committed to a life of reduced expectations. Their current BOT's are prime examples of that. Whatever spark there was in their eyes has long been glazed over by ritual failure. If anyone really hated a Way leader all they have to do is hope they stay "in". That's punishment enough. The people who don't know anything about what's gone on are sitting ducks. They don't know it but the best they can hope for is that someone else won't "rise up" and do worse than their predecessor. The door's wide open for that to happen.
As for Rosalie, and where she comes off from - it's money. She was wealthy coming in to the Way and had a veneer of respectability and "class". Power and money was her entree' to leadership in the Way. The fact she's been able to keep it and keep her job (which appears to stay on at the Way Nash regardless of the position) says a lot about her own savvy and politcal abilities. But she's not a leader, she's a party planner with money.
Historically the Way will suck bugs off a log of your choice and call it steak if you've got money and power and then after they've got your money they'll kick your foot out and say it's theirs. She's been jerking them around for years. She does'nt just navigate deadly water well, she cuts it like a Great White in a seal wetsuit. I wouldn't get within 10 feet of her without a tape recorder, a camera and a young-gun lawyer out to make a rep for themself.
It's a very friendly bunch leading the Way...they exemplify greed, pride ....All that stuff that Jesus talked about so warmly.
But in his absence, ahem, any WOman o' god will do y'know.
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socks
Aaaaand speaking of the lawsuit:
I'd bet a dollar, good old American cash money, right now, that Ms. Rivenbark was of STRONG voice urging for a settlement.
I could see Martindale spluttering and squirming and trying to keep his head up. "Well dernit! Nobody's going to take this ministry down! I may have-I didn't, I mean, doggonit! I ain't gonna - uh..."
"Waaa-hl now hawney, maybee we bettah think about this fo-ah a spell, and considah whaht mawght be bay-est, for the MIN-ISTRY, not to may-nchun uthahs that mawght get in-vawlved in this unsawghtly aff-ayah..."
I mean, LCM's got as much sense as a hamster in a pig pen. I can't help but figure he was shown.....a Bettah Way.
:D-->
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Bob
I thought RR went through the family corpse?
Dicussion of RR would seem to be valid on this thread, since she was named as a defendant in the lawsuit.
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GarthP2000
(((sigh))) And Yet Another Urban Rumor keeps rearing its ugly head.
((*ahem*)) Waydale was NOT shut down due to any demand from TWI as a part of any settlement.
Exhibit A - They said as much themselves openly. They just got tired of having to keep running the Waydale board, as it was draining from their lives and after their *victory* (via the settlement), they wanted to live out their lives quietly. (Anybody running any message board can readily identify with this, .... right Paw?
;)-->)
Exhibit B - Uhhh, now could someone please tell me how the (Ace Ventura mode) **lo-o-o-ser** can legally set the terms of the settlement? "Better not bring forward your very damning testimony that can blow my case clean out of the water! Settle now on my terms, ... or .... or ... I'll get *very* upset!!"
TWI was the loser. They were the winners. Winners get to pick the conditions. The losers get to whine. ... That's how it works in our wonderful American legal system.
(Removing Names)
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GrouchoMarxJr
quote..."Historically the Way will suck bugs off a log of your choice and call it steak if you've got money and power...."
and...
quote..."I mean, LCM's got as much sense as a hamster in a pig pen."
Thanks, I enjoy laughing in the morning.
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jardinero
Posted by Socks:
Boy! Ain't that the damn, sad, pathetic truth!
J.
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Belle
Derail this one all you want! That's why it's here, but I do agree with Bob that talk of RFR is not a derail.
:D-->
I'm shocked though....she NEVER had any WC training? Never had to scrub toilets or work in the kitchen? TWI built her house for her? WTF!!!
And:
I didn't post about it, but I certainly got in deep doggie doo for looking it up on the internet.
--> Gimme my sign....
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ChasUFarley
Garth --
You don't hear this often on this board but man....
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT!
I've checked around the documents on line and can't find anything supporting the closing of Waydale other than it being Allen's choice - So...
I STAND CORRECTED!
At least for the moment... ;-)
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alfakat
Rosey-tells-lies did indeed do 1(one) year of Wake Kork trainn-ing, SIR, with the Special, later Family, kork 2. She did first year with her no-account, sneak-thief son. He was busted that year or the next, can't remember. She then was put in charge, along with B*b W*negarner, of pfal 77. She became so damn important that she did not do a final in-rez kork year. So she is technically a kork "wreck"-cognized kork type person.
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diazbro
The lawsuit activity represents a method to address the abuse within TWI. Its not like TWI , its leaders, past or present are ever going to acknowledge just how whacked they are and were. I've seen lawsuits initiated over far less serious situations. Guess its cool for someone to sue McDonalds over hot coffee ? Now THATS a legitimate use of the legal system ? I don't hear people whining about that or the woman who tried to sue Wendy's over a finger she planted in the chili ? Where is the righteous indignation about that ? But someone DARES sue the one and only great church...and even worse...without first coming to Gspot and asking for general approval ? The nerve of some people to exclude others ! Gspot is not a judicial system and no one (former way or not) needs the approval of this forum to address the problems in their life using standard legal remedies.
I don't think its this huge problem for people to accept that someone can litigate for medical malpractice yet when someone goes after TWI its like they just have to be mercenary SOBS with no other goal than to "steal the ABS". How convenient a "defense" for those who continue to worship at the altar of VPW and TWI. Anyone who would oppose those who sue TWI are either still in love with their lives as a Wayfer or are just simply jealous that someone might get a payday out of it while other Wayfers are left high and dry. Oh boo hoo. If you don't like it that people are going after TWI then sue those people ! In the meantime let the courts handle it.
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My3Cents
It's not always so cut and dried. From a legal perspective, settlement means there is no (declared) winner or loser. Both sides come to an agreement.
Even if a person has a pretty sure case there may be reasons they'd prefer to settle and to do so they may have to give some things the other side wants. Some of the reasons may be that even a sure case has been lost on occasion. Even one that has been won has been changed or the award lessened on appeal. Sometimes it's just not worth any more time, expense, emotional turmoil even if you could "win" more money than you settled for. And also when you win a civil lawsuit you don't walk out of court with the money. You get a judgement against the other party. You still have to collect to get the money. There are delaying tactics they can use to delay or avoid paying. Especially when there are different corporate interests that legally own the money.
When you settle, it's paid, no appeal, done, finished. So even if you're the "winner" you might decide to give up something to settle.
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Second James
Since this IS a discussion on "lawsuits"..could someone please tell me if the Parker suit was definitely settled out of court as was the Allen suit?? I never did hear the specifics of what eventually did happen..thanx!! JJ
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GarthP2000
My3Cents,
Valid points all. Yet that paragraph of mine was put in the context of Waydale not forced to shut down due to any demand by TWI. Plus also, (if I'm not mistaken) TWI called for the settlement, thus putting them, at least, at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes for setting terms. ... Ie., *they* blinked.
The site was still shut down voluntarily by them, with no legal force/effect put upon them by TWI.
Just clearing up a point, is all.
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LG
It is completely possible that the Allens would have shut down Waydale anyway and that doing so was also part of the settlement. It is possible that they would otherwise have kept it going, in a less active sense, more like GS, but agreed to shut it down as part of the settlement. It is possible that shutting down Waydale wasn't part of the settlment at all. Unless you are privy to the terms of the settlement, you flat don't know.
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GarthP2000
Long Gone,
Like I said, Paul stated in a post a few years back the reason why he was shutting down Waydale, and I saw no reason to believe otherwise, including the legal details you just gave.
That might be legally true in this case (the law being quite complex/contradictory at times); it just doesn't make any sense to me that the losing side (or were plainly about to lose), ie., TWI would then dictate terms. The Allens had the upper hand in that situation. ... I mean, what was TWI going to do if the Allens didn't take the 'settlement'? Continue with a case that was a sure loser for them? That's why it doesn't make sense to me, legal or otherwise.
But perhaps, like you said, I flat don't know (for sure). But I'd almost be willing to make a wager.
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GarthP2000
Yet Another Reason that I have for not going for the 'Shut Down the Website as part of the Settlement' argument.
At the time, TWI vs. Allen was headed towards the trial stage, if not already there. Now, one would think that in that situation, TWI would have more pressing things on their minds than just shutting down some critical site. ... Ohh, like avoiding the trial. Period.
Besides, the website wasn't part and parcel of the Allens suit against TWI anyway.
Anywho, just my opinion anyway.
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oenophile
Socks,
You mentioned that RFR came from money. That very well may be true. I do not know. However, I sat in the back rows as a grad when she first took PFAL in 1973. I remember some of other grads said that she was their high school English teacher.
My mom happened to be a high school English teacher. It seems that profession is a odd career choice for someone coming from a position of being independently wealthy, unless one had a passion for teaching, language / literature or...being in control.
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socks
You're right, oen. I can't speak to her dollar value, so I'll ammend my statement, AKA "incorrect". Some public GS facts were collected HERE
on GS as well as some other stuff.
Wealth is more of a relative term. VPW gathered a group in the 60's and 70's that, for the most part, were too young to have accumlated assets of any value unless their families had it. So if you were young and just starting out you had all your "earning years" ahead of you.
To digress from the Lawsuit topic, this deals with a twist in the development of Way culture, if there is a such a topic and I guess there could be. It relates to the money topic and people in the Way over the years, so I guess this should get a BIG PARENTHESIS.
--> Given that VPW chose to move towards a younger audience, less entrenched in social and religious systems and committments, he dealt with that group's growth in an interesting way. Central was "the Word" and the "movement of the Word" through PFAL, WOW outreach, Corps programs and witnessing outreach focused on local Twig fellowships. All of that was implemented while most of his congregation were in their 20's. If you were 20 say in 1970 when you took PFAL you were all of 35 when he died. So those people grew up through young adulthood while in the Way. If they went WOW, entered the Way Corps and accepted field assignments with the Way for a few years that was their "career". Many people who began that sequence didn't have careers or plans when they entered it. That became their career path and training.
Why this is significant is because it helped to form the backbone of what the Way's people were in relation to the rest of society. Now, I'm not a social scientist or academic so I can't take this too far - for instance in relation to the demographic group and a comparison based on careers, events, geography, etc./other factors. But, at least, I think I can see that in the Way, whole groups of people developed their life's plans and goals within the educational, service and employment opportunities within the Way itself. I might describe it as "The Way and it's teachings grew into the people AND the people grew into the Way". People who formed the foundation of the Way's "leadership" at all of it's Way Tree levels made activity in the Way their "careers" and in many cases only pursued developing "secular" careers haphazardly, mostly to support their work in the Way and with "the Word". Part time or full time ministers, putting bread on the table, roof over head and gas in the car, but not much more.
VPW realized this, no question. He felt that in order to have people committing full time to "moving the Word over the world" they'd need to remain as unattached to other committments as possible. So there was a conflict that played itself out in the Way's growth - the lifestyle of perference wasn't a person with say, 4-6 years of education, a degree, advanced degrees, a career based on several years of working vigorously through a entry level positions towards advancement, or the hard first years of building your own business, a client base, reputation and references to fuel a successful future. All those years were focused on involvement in the Way's programs and classes.
Which-in and of themselves weren't necessarily a bad thing. Grouped as they were in fast succession though, they filled the first 10-15-20 years of many people's adulthood. One year rolls into the next. The progression to go through the Way Corps program accounted for many years eventually - example - 2-3 years joining the Way and completing it's foundational classes, 1 year prior in a sancationed program like WOW, 1 year residence, 1 field year, 1 year in residence and graduation, then first assignment. That right there could account for 7-8 years of a person's life. While you were doing that you weren't developing other things, that was what you did.
What it boils down to is a couple things at least - if you had a career coming into the Way there was a strong likelihood that you'd stop pursuing it once and if you entered this sequence of events. During and after you may or may not reenter it or continue on in any other. If you didn't have anything going before you started it your next opportunity to would be after graduation. If you accepted assignments after graduation you had a decision to make - what and where to go with your life. The tendency was to be sent out to a city somewhere, where a new sequence began. Outreach, meetings, class quotas, classes, etc. all of which made demands on your time - no surprise there because your life's career choice was to commit to the Way and it's outreach of "the Word. . It was common for people in that situation to try and get or develop part-time employment. Results varied, as you'd expect. Which brings up back to where we started. Most of the Way's people didn't have large personal assets at that point unless they got them from their families, if they hadn't invested any time in building them.
What this has to do with (***yawwwwwn****)
:D--> Rosalie Rivenbark is that I would place her "money" status in relation to the body of members in the Way as a whole. Whether through inheritance or earned, her assets and background would have been substantially more significant than the Average Joe or Jane who'd joined the way, middle-class, without outside support or funding and putting all of their years into the Way, who had to sell or spend what they had to do whatever it was they did.
I have no question in my mind (but I'll allow others might) that VPW saw this playing out. He knew what he was building. So to him, an older person with education, experience, assets, a career of any kind and the connections you develop through those things, was of value. He often encouraged those people diffenently than people he considered having nothing going for them. For those people he seemed to encourage they "get something going" by making the Way's programs their focus. It was a kind of caste system, in a way. If you're an Average Joe, do this. If you're a Little Better Quality Jane, do that. Some people he kid-gloved. Others he never even really knew. This is the "era" of the Way in which R.R. entered the scene.
A statement by one of the trustees in the 80's says a lot - "20% of our people give 80% of what the Way brings in". His point was several - not everyone "abundantly shares", not everyone tithes, but there is a fairly steady flow of contributions that comes from people who 1)"are faithful" and 2) have a lot to give. Whether that was true or not, I don't know for sure but the guy that said it would have known.
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