telling them they are imagining them and treating them like they are stupid or gullible doesn't help anyone.
That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults who can make decisions on their own. I think treating them like infantile helpless mindless victims doesn't do any good. Treat every decent person with respect and there's a good chance you'll receive back the same consideration.
quote:
But I never saw anything like this when I was in The Way. I do remember VPW telling us and teaching that when a person is sick or hurt, that this was not the time to be preaching at them, but rather the time to love them and help them. I was actually reproved once by a limb leader for not being more kind and loving when a person was sick one time, and I know he was right for doing so. Things were different during The Way I. I was gone from The Way by 1989...
I didn't say that it didn't exist Rascal, sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think it was anywhere as "mainstream" as it later became. But I do think that Oldiesman and HCW have a point well taken. I loved God and His Word, and was taught in The Way to do so. And when it became evident to me that the doctrine in The Way was wrong, and that the leadership in The Way was evil, we just plain walked out. It didn't line up with It Is Written.
I remember when things were heating up in 88 or so, when LCM wrote his "Pledge Of Allegience To Me" letter, I said to my wife,; "Ya know honey, I think our lives are going to change as we know it very drastically". She was afraid as I was, but we knew in our hearts that if we were to keep our commitment to God to stand on His Word, that the The Way was not the place to do it. And so we left. We knew that God would take care of us, even if we did feel "naked" for awhile not "being in the household" and all of that jazz. -->
Ya know, I'm pretty certain that someone will comment on my comment, but I really have to get off to work now. Soryy I cannot continue this discussion right now, for it is a very good one. Nice topic Belle. Have a great day you all, but I gotta git, for it is now 0617...
As many here can and have attested, facemeltings and cruelty were happening much earlier, it just wasn`t as wide spread.
I think that a big factor in why there was such difference in twi i and 2 is because LCM started kicking the people out who had been standing in the gap....those with the courage to stand up and speak out against evil.....with them gone.....the bullies had free range and full power.....it opened the door wide open for widespread abuse...
The abuse was always there....it was just better hidden.
telling them they are imagining them and treating them like they are stupid or gullible doesn't help anyone.
That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults who can make decisions on their own. I think treating them like infantile helpless mindless victims doesn't do any good. Treat every decent person with respect and there's a good chance you'll receive back the same consideration.
quote:
But I never saw anything like this when I was in The Way.
Me too Jonny.
Addressing this in reverse order:
A) And yet....whether or not you saw it, Oldiesman,
IT WAS HAPPENING TO SOMEONE ELSE.
Your life wasn't destroyed like that? Wonderful. Neither was mine.
Last month, American soldiers were killed in Iraq. I wasn't killed. You weren't killed.
We didn't see the killings happen. Guess what? They happened anyway. Gonna say they
didn't because YOU DIDN'T SEE IT?
It gets tiresome to see you continually make the same sole comment over and over.
"It was never that bad because I didn't see it get that bad. You all either exaggerate
or (if you claim it happened to you) you lie outright."
====
B) Oldiesman,
I can't tell if there's any hope whatsoever in trying to show you the difference between
claiming someone was influenced by deceptive practices, coercive doctrines, and thus had
their ability to make clear, informed decisions severely compromised
(which was and is the situation with twi, and what WE said)
and
claiming an adult's entire ability to think was completely replaced with an
"infantile helpless mindless victim"
(which is what YOU said we said.)
====
I think everyone except Oldiesman can read this article and see an example of
Methinks you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth:
YOU SAID:
"That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults..."
I'd be hard pressed to find a posting of yours on a twi-2 thread where you ACTUALLY do that...
I also don't see where ANYONE says they were a mindless victim - however some people's situations were more complicated than others - some CHOOSE to stay becuase leaving would have caused them more personal damage because of the teachings and practices from TWI at that time. Maybe they did it to try to keep their marriage in tact - like Hope and IGotOut did. Maybe others did it to keep their whole family as intact as possible - too many families are splintered because some are "standing" and some are not. Others stayed because they thought it would get better - it just had to, right? (HA!)
I've read many-a-thread where you tell people to "get over it" and discredit other's personal experiences because you were either fortunate enough to be in a very 'true to the Word' pocket of believers and leadership, were on some really good meds, or had on rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you've never made a decision because of fear or other negitive emotions, have you? Yet, your posts seem to ding those of us who were in TWI2 for any length of time who post about it. People over-stayed their time in TWI for many reasons - I know many were because of family or spouse who were "in" that they would no longer be able to be with if they left. Some stayed because they didn't want their "dirty laundry" aired publically by leadership if they left - EVEN AT THE TWIG LEVEL...
I recently found out (just this last year) that personal information about my marriage and my x-husband were discussed at a lunch time following our dismissal from staff. My husband was 'smoked out' as a homo by upper leadership - incidentally, by someone who is a known homosexual (although she witnessed she was healed at many a WOW training...). We were placed on 'spiritual probation' and he was eventually marked and avoided... I had to leave him if I didn't want to be m & a'ed too. I CHOOSE to leave him at that time. I choose to stay in a few more years because I had invested a lot of time in it and thought of the believers as my family. I choose to leave when I got fed up with leadership straining at the gnats in my pathetic, single-gal life - I had nothing left to loose. That's what it took for me to leave - my marriage of almost 7 years was gone, not a pot to pi$$ in or a window to throw it out, and no secrets left in my life because my 'dirty laundry' had been all aired out. Hell - why not leave?!
Best decision I ever made! (BUT not the easiest!)
I think for you, Oldies, is the bigger issue of not understanding why we still discuss this because it seems like you have trouble when you can't relate to something...
Why do we discuss this?
BECAUSE IT'S STILL GOING ON...
If you feel left out, why don't you hook back up with TWI for seconds?
Shellon's daughter recently had a baby - but because some of her daughter's father's family is still "IN" they are not in the picture for welcoming that newest member of their 'earthly family'. Another splintered family!
Bell posted about what was said when John Reyn0lds left as a BOT - I'm sure it was sugar-coated compared to what was said at a WC phone hook-up...
The really sick part about TWI-2 is that they set standards that no one could honestly live up to - they made it almost impossible to be in fellowship with the Present Truth - and then when people did leave they made "examples" out of them. NO ONE wanted to be that example - it was a form of blackmail... Do you get it?
No one is saying they were a *mindless* victim - they are saying they had to make hard decisions and compromise - sometimes in ways that YOU couldn't possibly understand.
Let me put it to you another way --
Why don't you look Fern All*n in the eye and tell HER she was a "mindless victim"?
WordWolf - Thanks for doing the homework and posting the links! I have trouble accessing the regular reply box and can usually only post with the "Quick reply" window - THANKS!
Wordwolf, there's no point in trying to argue with om.
Some people just naturally have no sense of empathy. Their brains are wired differently.
One person can look at what happened at the World Trade Center and cry for days at the humanity of it all, another can look at it and say, "Shame. Those were nice buildings."
There is a characteristic that is common among people that lack the natural emotional response of empathy. That characteristic is they tend to focus on a few specific things.
You could write a post in the prayer forum about a woman that was run over by a car, and a person without empathy would post, "She had some accountability for the accident too! She should have looked both ways, she shouldn't have been in the street" etc, etc, ad nauseum.
Trying to explain a legitimate empathetic response to someone who has no empathy is like trying to explain the color fuchsia to a person born blind.
Why don't you look Fern All*n in the eye and tell HER she was a "mindless victim"?
Go for it, dude!
ChasUFarley, don't you read? I didn't call anybody helpless mindless victims, in fact I believe the opposite. I believe adults like Fern All*n were not helpless mindless victims.
And by the way, she sure made out well in the end, doncha think?
So, Oldies, HCW and some of you others who think us TWI-2-ers are making this **** up - there's lots of proof in the puddin'. JUST BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T THERE DOESN'T MEAN IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Gee whiz Chas, I stopped reading the thread when I hit that remark. I asked because I wondered what went on. I'm aware of tactic they used on people that I saw when I was there. What I saw didn't reach the level that I've heard you guys speak of.
I never said I thought anyone was making anything up. I don't need proof. Your word is good enough for me; if you tell me, "This is what happened," I'll BELIEVE you ... PERIOD. I'd never say anything remotely close to not believeing you or supporting - - THEM.
I'm just thinking that if there is something they've done that can be prosecuted, by all means, PROSECUTE them. ANY of them, ALL of them.
I'm still me, Shell. I just don't know what happened to folks after I left TWI in August, 1988. I walked away, never looked back. I lived in New Knoxville for the next 10 years and knew less about what was going on three miles down the road than people 3,000 miles away knew.
One of the things TWI seems best at is concealing their dirty laundry. I almost puked all over my keyboard (literally, I was actually sickened) when I saw one of my favorite football heroes, Terry Bradshaw, speaking "good" things about TWI.
It scared me when I saw "The singing ladies of the way" videos on their website about a month ago. I could almost hear "The Twighlight Zone." music playing in the background of my mind.
I'm not ridiculing anyone for staying in. I've spoken about the insideous mind control they place people under. I've even gone so far as to say that I, who felt I WASN'T under their control, was controlled by them more than I thought.
I may not have done some of the insane things others WC have done to people but I feel I was decieved into thinking TWI, its ministry itself, was actually worth fighting for. I've actually seen physical differences in my body since leaving TWI. I was deteriorating simply because of residual stress of being involved.
So. Please. Don't hate me cause I ask what did they do to you. I really do care.
Someone recently posted about how some people survived TWI by having "one foot in reality" the whole time. I think loyalty is basically a good thing, but it has to be reciprocated. Looking from the outside, it does seem hard to swallow that someone could get to the point that they'd lose a marriage, job, mortgage, etc. because "God's representative" said to do it. I finally left TWI because they tried to drive a wedge between me and my wife. I DID have second thoughts, but not enough to seriously consider going back and it DID feel scary for a bit. I guess that's my version of having one foot in reality.
Before that I came close to being kicked out of WOW and a Way home for not having a job for small increments of time, and one time I got ....ed at a music group coordinator and went off on him in front of everybody, but most of the time the 'powers that were' seemed to accept me for the bad as well as the good. I was abuse at times, but I gave abuse as well.
Before Waydale/GSC we really didn't have any way to compare note like this. Looking back I now will not put up with some things I routinely put up with 20 yrs ago. Churches really HAVE caught up with TWI in a lot of ways. But I think where Oldies is coming from is....
We all know the stereotype behavior where someone is always blaming others for their own screw ups and seems to always make the same mistakes never making any progress. We also know that great breakthroughs are made when people genuinely understand they need to change and do so. This might just be my own perception of these things but IMO saying TWI is/was manipulative is more accurate because, well, they ARE/WERE just as people in other areas of life can be that way, but saying TWI is a "mind control cult evil devilish hellbound etc....." is a misrepresentation by degrees. To turn it around, just because you didn't see any healing doesn't mean it didn't happen. I am 100% sure the fear and terror and intimidation expressed by Rascal and others was quite real. I merely submit that by constantly saying mind control this and cult that...there's no room to get healed. There's only the appearance of blaming others rather than taking control. I think Oldies is just saying his "blame meter" is getting loud when he posts this stuff. I don't think he's really unsympathetic.
I merely submit that by constantly saying mind control this and cult that...there's no room to get healed. There's only the appearance of blaming others rather than taking control.
I merely submit that by constantly saying mind control this and cult that...there's no room to get healed. There's only the appearance of blaming others rather than taking control.
I totally agree Johniam. And thx for the support.
Well if you want to turn a blind eye to what it really is. I see your point.
Belive what you will about what twi did to you and believe what it did to others. Each person is dirrerent.
Mind Control: I think that all depends how far you put your mind into twi. Some through their whole mind into twi so hell yeah it was controlled.
Cult: Well call it what you will. It was a cult.
I have just widend my view since I have been out to see how others feel about twi. Maybe if I just looked straight ahead and jus keep one point of view I would not hate twi as much as I do now. I have seen to much hurt to others to not think mind control was not real.
I thought that was the whole point of the "burning of da bridges" concept. No turning back- that way, I guess they just throw you in the river when they are done with you. "sorry, we forgot to include swimming lessons.."
Of the people that I know that left staff or corps in a unfavorable light, only ONE was given the opportunity to work out the details and leave graciously. And even that was hardly "pleasant". All others were given the Martindalian "bums rush". No job, no friends, no family, no savings, no furniture, no place to live, no food- kids and all- off to the wilds of the world to be jumped by "da enemy" and wild beasts at every turn..
One poor lady here, I had no idea what they did to her.. till long after we left.
Add to this, the lunchtime "sharings" where loy or crew gloated about this supposed "victory" by destroying the "devilish and possessed" folks..
to a "captive" audience. An audience who's lives subsisted by living on the few scraps of bread that fell from the trustee's table.
Cripe- I think it would have been more humane and civilized to show off the last guys scalp you got, and threatening that you'd be glad to do it again.
I heard these kind of rants, and I was hardly involved in the inner circle. What I witnessed was Loy on a GOOD day.
If you don't call this "mind control" I would like to hear a better definition.
Some of those poor bast***s have NO PLACE to go.
Good grief- people are worth far more than that kind of treatment. Apparently not if you are in da vey. I'd treat a dog, or a cat better than that.
But what I find unnerving- how people like Li***r and crowd hang on to that as God forsaken as you can get joint. Good grief- he probably has enough "goods" on the bastards to negotiate his departure on his own terms.. what gives with that? Cripe- if I was him, I'd retire in Bermuda or somethin..
Tough choice for me, I'm sure. Either retire in style, or stick around getting people busted because you're afraid they are gonna pee in the fountain or something.. heh heh.
I THANK GOD I never got selected to go on staff.. may have hastened my departure out of the ****hole, but the consequences probably would have been a lot worse.
Ditto ChasU, Thanks to WW for the links. I'll read them, all of them.
Hey gang, apologies are in order. From me that is. I didn't mean to take the villian role on this topic, Ok? Nor was I doin' the "devil's advocate" (no pun intended) thing either, just to spur some conversation forward.
You have my sincere apology for any negative impression my words may have given you. It sincerely was not my intent. :o-->
This thread has actually grabbed me by the throat in a way. This could be the most important topic in discussion at the cafe. Peoples lives are really involved.
Injury.
Injury is the operative word here as to why people otherwise considered to be rational, intelligent, thoughtful and considerate human beings would, apparently, choose to voluntarily involve themselves inside such an abusive environment.
They are not STUPID, they are INJURED.
Emotional injuries are WORSE than physical ones. One "face-melting," especially in a religious environment where, by definition, people let down their guard and open up to receive from God, Himself. Can do substantial, if not life altering damage to a person's psyche.
Don't hate on any because they're an "innie" (he said, chanelling Johnnie Cochran).
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
13
14
16
Popular Days
Apr 13
56
Apr 14
34
Apr 15
31
Apr 12
13
Top Posters In This Topic
oldiesman 18 posts
ChasUFarley 13 posts
HCW 14 posts
Ham 16 posts
Popular Days
Apr 13 2005
56 posts
Apr 14 2005
34 posts
Apr 15 2005
31 posts
Apr 12 2005
13 posts
oldiesman
That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults who can make decisions on their own. I think treating them like infantile helpless mindless victims doesn't do any good. Treat every decent person with respect and there's a good chance you'll receive back the same consideration.
Me too Jonny. Thx for your comments.Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
I didn't say that it didn't exist Rascal, sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think it was anywhere as "mainstream" as it later became. But I do think that Oldiesman and HCW have a point well taken. I loved God and His Word, and was taught in The Way to do so. And when it became evident to me that the doctrine in The Way was wrong, and that the leadership in The Way was evil, we just plain walked out. It didn't line up with It Is Written.
I remember when things were heating up in 88 or so, when LCM wrote his "Pledge Of Allegience To Me" letter, I said to my wife,; "Ya know honey, I think our lives are going to change as we know it very drastically". She was afraid as I was, but we knew in our hearts that if we were to keep our commitment to God to stand on His Word, that the The Way was not the place to do it. And so we left. We knew that God would take care of us, even if we did feel "naked" for awhile not "being in the household" and all of that jazz.
-->
Ya know, I'm pretty certain that someone will comment on my comment, but I really have to get off to work now. Soryy I cannot continue this discussion right now, for it is a very good one. Nice topic Belle. Have a great day you all, but I gotta git, for it is now 0617...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
As many here can and have attested, facemeltings and cruelty were happening much earlier, it just wasn`t as wide spread.
I think that a big factor in why there was such difference in twi i and 2 is because LCM started kicking the people out who had been standing in the gap....those with the courage to stand up and speak out against evil.....with them gone.....the bullies had free range and full power.....it opened the door wide open for widespread abuse...
The abuse was always there....it was just better hidden.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Thanks Johnny, I think that you are absolutly right.
I think that many good folks were more able to protect the rest of us before lcm issued that loyalty oath.
As we made our departure...that was my concern....all of the good folks we knew were being thrown out....while the creeps were being promoted....
After he kicked/drove out all decenters....bullies had free reign and were given tacit aproval for ever growing meanness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Addressing this in reverse order:
A) And yet....whether or not you saw it, Oldiesman,
IT WAS HAPPENING TO SOMEONE ELSE.
Your life wasn't destroyed like that? Wonderful. Neither was mine.
Last month, American soldiers were killed in Iraq. I wasn't killed. You weren't killed.
We didn't see the killings happen. Guess what? They happened anyway. Gonna say they
didn't because YOU DIDN'T SEE IT?
It gets tiresome to see you continually make the same sole comment over and over.
"It was never that bad because I didn't see it get that bad. You all either exaggerate
or (if you claim it happened to you) you lie outright."
====
B) Oldiesman,
I can't tell if there's any hope whatsoever in trying to show you the difference between
claiming someone was influenced by deceptive practices, coercive doctrines, and thus had
their ability to make clear, informed decisions severely compromised
(which was and is the situation with twi, and what WE said)
and
claiming an adult's entire ability to think was completely replaced with an
"infantile helpless mindless victim"
(which is what YOU said we said.)
====
I think everyone except Oldiesman can read this article and see an example of
practices we described.
http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/way/11.html
Can someone besides me catalog all the dangerous doctrines mentioned right in the article?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
Oldies -
Methinks you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth:
YOU SAID:
"That's why I try to treat participants in twi-2 as responsible adults..."
I'd be hard pressed to find a posting of yours on a twi-2 thread where you ACTUALLY do that...
I also don't see where ANYONE says they were a mindless victim - however some people's situations were more complicated than others - some CHOOSE to stay becuase leaving would have caused them more personal damage because of the teachings and practices from TWI at that time. Maybe they did it to try to keep their marriage in tact - like Hope and IGotOut did. Maybe others did it to keep their whole family as intact as possible - too many families are splintered because some are "standing" and some are not. Others stayed because they thought it would get better - it just had to, right? (HA!)
I've read many-a-thread where you tell people to "get over it" and discredit other's personal experiences because you were either fortunate enough to be in a very 'true to the Word' pocket of believers and leadership, were on some really good meds, or had on rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you've never made a decision because of fear or other negitive emotions, have you? Yet, your posts seem to ding those of us who were in TWI2 for any length of time who post about it. People over-stayed their time in TWI for many reasons - I know many were because of family or spouse who were "in" that they would no longer be able to be with if they left. Some stayed because they didn't want their "dirty laundry" aired publically by leadership if they left - EVEN AT THE TWIG LEVEL...
I recently found out (just this last year) that personal information about my marriage and my x-husband were discussed at a lunch time following our dismissal from staff. My husband was 'smoked out' as a homo by upper leadership - incidentally, by someone who is a known homosexual (although she witnessed she was healed at many a WOW training...). We were placed on 'spiritual probation' and he was eventually marked and avoided... I had to leave him if I didn't want to be m & a'ed too. I CHOOSE to leave him at that time. I choose to stay in a few more years because I had invested a lot of time in it and thought of the believers as my family. I choose to leave when I got fed up with leadership straining at the gnats in my pathetic, single-gal life - I had nothing left to loose. That's what it took for me to leave - my marriage of almost 7 years was gone, not a pot to pi$$ in or a window to throw it out, and no secrets left in my life because my 'dirty laundry' had been all aired out. Hell - why not leave?!
Best decision I ever made! (BUT not the easiest!)
I think for you, Oldies, is the bigger issue of not understanding why we still discuss this because it seems like you have trouble when you can't relate to something...
Why do we discuss this?
BECAUSE IT'S STILL GOING ON...
If you feel left out, why don't you hook back up with TWI for seconds?
Shellon's daughter recently had a baby - but because some of her daughter's father's family is still "IN" they are not in the picture for welcoming that newest member of their 'earthly family'. Another splintered family!
Bell posted about what was said when John Reyn0lds left as a BOT - I'm sure it was sugar-coated compared to what was said at a WC phone hook-up...
The really sick part about TWI-2 is that they set standards that no one could honestly live up to - they made it almost impossible to be in fellowship with the Present Truth - and then when people did leave they made "examples" out of them. NO ONE wanted to be that example - it was a form of blackmail... Do you get it?
No one is saying they were a *mindless* victim - they are saying they had to make hard decisions and compromise - sometimes in ways that YOU couldn't possibly understand.
Let me put it to you another way --
Why don't you look Fern All*n in the eye and tell HER she was a "mindless victim"?
Go for it, dude!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
WordWolf - Thanks for doing the homework and posting the links! I have trouble accessing the regular reply box and can usually only post with the "Quick reply" window - THANKS!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Wordwolf, there's no point in trying to argue with om.
Some people just naturally have no sense of empathy. Their brains are wired differently.
One person can look at what happened at the World Trade Center and cry for days at the humanity of it all, another can look at it and say, "Shame. Those were nice buildings."
There is a characteristic that is common among people that lack the natural emotional response of empathy. That characteristic is they tend to focus on a few specific things.
You could write a post in the prayer forum about a woman that was run over by a car, and a person without empathy would post, "She had some accountability for the accident too! She should have looked both ways, she shouldn't have been in the street" etc, etc, ad nauseum.
Trying to explain a legitimate empathetic response to someone who has no empathy is like trying to explain the color fuchsia to a person born blind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
ChasUFarley, don't you read? I didn't call anybody helpless mindless victims, in fact I believe the opposite. I believe adults like Fern All*n were not helpless mindless victims.
And by the way, she sure made out well in the end, doncha think?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEnd
You are one sick person!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Gee whiz Chas, I stopped reading the thread when I hit that remark. I asked because I wondered what went on. I'm aware of tactic they used on people that I saw when I was there. What I saw didn't reach the level that I've heard you guys speak of.
I never said I thought anyone was making anything up. I don't need proof. Your word is good enough for me; if you tell me, "This is what happened," I'll BELIEVE you ... PERIOD. I'd never say anything remotely close to not believeing you or supporting - - THEM.
I'm just thinking that if there is something they've done that can be prosecuted, by all means, PROSECUTE them. ANY of them, ALL of them.
I'm still me, Shell. I just don't know what happened to folks after I left TWI in August, 1988. I walked away, never looked back. I lived in New Knoxville for the next 10 years and knew less about what was going on three miles down the road than people 3,000 miles away knew.
One of the things TWI seems best at is concealing their dirty laundry. I almost puked all over my keyboard (literally, I was actually sickened) when I saw one of my favorite football heroes, Terry Bradshaw, speaking "good" things about TWI.
It scared me when I saw "The singing ladies of the way" videos on their website about a month ago. I could almost hear "The Twighlight Zone." music playing in the background of my mind.
I'm not ridiculing anyone for staying in. I've spoken about the insideous mind control they place people under. I've even gone so far as to say that I, who felt I WASN'T under their control, was controlled by them more than I thought.
I may not have done some of the insane things others WC have done to people but I feel I was decieved into thinking TWI, its ministry itself, was actually worth fighting for. I've actually seen physical differences in my body since leaving TWI. I was deteriorating simply because of residual stress of being involved.
So. Please. Don't hate me cause I ask what did they do to you. I really do care.
Now I'm gonna read further.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
Someone recently posted about how some people survived TWI by having "one foot in reality" the whole time. I think loyalty is basically a good thing, but it has to be reciprocated. Looking from the outside, it does seem hard to swallow that someone could get to the point that they'd lose a marriage, job, mortgage, etc. because "God's representative" said to do it. I finally left TWI because they tried to drive a wedge between me and my wife. I DID have second thoughts, but not enough to seriously consider going back and it DID feel scary for a bit. I guess that's my version of having one foot in reality.
Before that I came close to being kicked out of WOW and a Way home for not having a job for small increments of time, and one time I got ....ed at a music group coordinator and went off on him in front of everybody, but most of the time the 'powers that were' seemed to accept me for the bad as well as the good. I was abuse at times, but I gave abuse as well.
Before Waydale/GSC we really didn't have any way to compare note like this. Looking back I now will not put up with some things I routinely put up with 20 yrs ago. Churches really HAVE caught up with TWI in a lot of ways. But I think where Oldies is coming from is....
We all know the stereotype behavior where someone is always blaming others for their own screw ups and seems to always make the same mistakes never making any progress. We also know that great breakthroughs are made when people genuinely understand they need to change and do so. This might just be my own perception of these things but IMO saying TWI is/was manipulative is more accurate because, well, they ARE/WERE just as people in other areas of life can be that way, but saying TWI is a "mind control cult evil devilish hellbound etc....." is a misrepresentation by degrees. To turn it around, just because you didn't see any healing doesn't mean it didn't happen. I am 100% sure the fear and terror and intimidation expressed by Rascal and others was quite real. I merely submit that by constantly saying mind control this and cult that...there's no room to get healed. There's only the appearance of blaming others rather than taking control. I think Oldies is just saying his "blame meter" is getting loud when he posts this stuff. I don't think he's really unsympathetic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Oh, how could I leave out THIS little link, for a thread with THIS title?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/edit.../prisoners.html
See, this is why I recommend reviewing all the documents and editorials at least
once a year,
as a refresher on what you've escaped, or are thankful you were spared the worst of,
or were completely lied to.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Oh,
and you're not allowed to even THINK about anything that would lead to leaving.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/edit.../obedience.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
Well if you want to turn a blind eye to what it really is. I see your point.
Belive what you will about what twi did to you and believe what it did to others. Each person is dirrerent.
Mind Control: I think that all depends how far you put your mind into twi. Some through their whole mind into twi so hell yeah it was controlled.
Cult: Well call it what you will. It was a cult.
I have just widend my view since I have been out to see how others feel about twi. Maybe if I just looked straight ahead and jus keep one point of view I would not hate twi as much as I do now. I have seen to much hurt to others to not think mind control was not real.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
oldies if i were still on drugs i would want some of the ones you must be on!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I thought that was the whole point of the "burning of da bridges" concept. No turning back- that way, I guess they just throw you in the river when they are done with you. "sorry, we forgot to include swimming lessons.."
Of the people that I know that left staff or corps in a unfavorable light, only ONE was given the opportunity to work out the details and leave graciously. And even that was hardly "pleasant". All others were given the Martindalian "bums rush". No job, no friends, no family, no savings, no furniture, no place to live, no food- kids and all- off to the wilds of the world to be jumped by "da enemy" and wild beasts at every turn..
One poor lady here, I had no idea what they did to her.. till long after we left.
Add to this, the lunchtime "sharings" where loy or crew gloated about this supposed "victory" by destroying the "devilish and possessed" folks..
to a "captive" audience. An audience who's lives subsisted by living on the few scraps of bread that fell from the trustee's table.
Cripe- I think it would have been more humane and civilized to show off the last guys scalp you got, and threatening that you'd be glad to do it again.
I heard these kind of rants, and I was hardly involved in the inner circle. What I witnessed was Loy on a GOOD day.
If you don't call this "mind control" I would like to hear a better definition.
Some of those poor bast***s have NO PLACE to go.
Good grief- people are worth far more than that kind of treatment. Apparently not if you are in da vey. I'd treat a dog, or a cat better than that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
But what I find unnerving- how people like Li***r and crowd hang on to that as God forsaken as you can get joint. Good grief- he probably has enough "goods" on the bastards to negotiate his departure on his own terms.. what gives with that? Cripe- if I was him, I'd retire in Bermuda or somethin..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Tough choice for me, I'm sure. Either retire in style, or stick around getting people busted because you're afraid they are gonna pee in the fountain or something.. heh heh.
What an idiot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I THANK GOD I never got selected to go on staff.. may have hastened my departure out of the ****hole, but the consequences probably would have been a lot worse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
OK- who turned on the "cuss filter"? heh heh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Ditto ChasU, Thanks to WW for the links. I'll read them, all of them.
Hey gang, apologies are in order. From me that is. I didn't mean to take the villian role on this topic, Ok? Nor was I doin' the "devil's advocate" (no pun intended) thing either, just to spur some conversation forward.
You have my sincere apology for any negative impression my words may have given you. It sincerely was not my intent.
:o-->
This thread has actually grabbed me by the throat in a way. This could be the most important topic in discussion at the cafe. Peoples lives are really involved.
Injury.
Injury is the operative word here as to why people otherwise considered to be rational, intelligent, thoughtful and considerate human beings would, apparently, choose to voluntarily involve themselves inside such an abusive environment.
They are not STUPID, they are INJURED.
Emotional injuries are WORSE than physical ones. One "face-melting," especially in a religious environment where, by definition, people let down their guard and open up to receive from God, Himself. Can do substantial, if not life altering damage to a person's psyche.
Don't hate on any because they're an "innie" (he said, chanelling Johnnie Cochran).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.