I brought this up with my wife, and she explained it in such a way that I can understand, even if I don't agree with it.
The apostle Paul was a mass murderer, and there were many horrible "sinners" who later asked forgiveness and became high-ranking members of Jesus' group, or in the case of Paul, leader of all Christians. Jesus taught forgiveness, which to Catholics mean that this guy should be forgiven if he is sorry for his role in the abuse.
Sure it's not sane, but forgiveness is a core doctrine of Christianity. Also, the Pope moved this guy to a position where he would not be able to shuffle around abusers. Ultimately, I would have preferred to see this guy thrown in jail or something, but I'm not a religious person.
Didn't Paul repent first? Law's so-called apology was on the heels of a huge expose done by the Boston Globe, and in the face of dozens of lawsuits. This is the same jerk who allowed John Geoghan to be in charge of ALTER BOYS even after he had been warned by one of his own friggin' bishops. Heartfelt apology my foot, he was still covering for the church.
Where is the Vatican's contrition? And who gives a damn how "contrite" they say they are when they honor priests like Bernie Law?
Hey you Catholics, whadd'ya think Jesus would really do if he were to walk through the Vatican today?
Ashes and rubble.
This, among many other "signs and wonders" belies the so-called "Pope's" true virtue, the patron saint of the pedophile priests.
Damn, the guy flashes a smile, travels around the world, and spouts a lot of inane platitudes and he can do no wrong. The media sucks it up.
He can go straight to hell for what he really was. What a godless, goddam sham.
Vickle, the cardinal that preformed the popes funeral service....a huge prestigous honor....is none other than the guy who moved a KNOWN pedophile priest from parish to parish in the usa for decades... never bothering to warn the new parishes, placing him in charge of alterboys etc....and when those in his charge were caught....numerous times....this guy covered the tracks of the pedophiles and intimidated families into silence.
He has been biding his time in a different abby since being ousted from the usa.
VATICAN CITY - Cardinal Bernard Law, whose failures to stop sexually abusive priests sparked the worst crisis in American church history, led a Mass for thousands mourning Pope John Paul II at St. Peter's Basilica on Monday after police whisked away a victim protesting outside.
Law celebrated the Mass without disruption, saying in his homily that Italian, Polish and other pilgrims were inspiring in their huge tribute to John Paul. Nearly 3 million mourners flooded Rome for the pontiff's funeral last week.
"In these incredible days, the pope continues to teach us what it means ... to be a follower of Christ," Law said, reading slowly in Italian. "Our faith has been reinforced."
After the service, several worshippers from Europe said they had never heard of Law. American parishioners said they recognized him, but questioned whether the protest was appropriate right after the pope died.
"It's not the time or the place," said Mary Beth Bauer, who lives in Maine and had followed the abuse crisis and Law's resignation.
But some Catholics said seeing the cardinal presiding over Mass at one of the most significant sites for their faith was another sign that the Vatican did not understand the betrayal parishioners felt that he protected guilty priests.
Barbara Blaine, founder of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, and Barbara Dorris, also a leader of the advocacy group, said the Vatican's choice of Law devastated victims.
"We believe he should take a back seat and stay in the background so Catholics can grieve without having to have the sex abuse scandal in their face," said Blaine, who had flown into Rome just hours before the Mass.
At St. Peter's Square, Blaine planned to distribute fliers, but was quickly surrounded by Italian officers who moved her without incident outside the plaza. The officers did not respond when asked why she was removed, but Blaine said they told her that news cameras were not allowed.
Blaine said she felt compelled to travel to the Vatican from her home in Chicago after learning of Law's public role in memorializing the pope. The Mass is one of nine daily services for the pope for the period of mourning called Novemdiales.
Law resigned as archbishop of Boston in December 2002 after unsealed court records revealed he had moved predatory clergy among parishes for years without telling parents their children were at risk. He has apologized for his wrongdoing.
More than 550 people have filed abuse claims in Boston in recent years, and the archdiocese has paid more than $85 million in settlements. The scandal erupted in Boston in January 2002 and spread nationwide, causing what American Catholic bishops have called the worst crisis in the U.S. church.
After Law's resignation, the pope appointed him archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica in Rome, one of four basilicas under direct Vatican jurisdiction.
Some church leaders have said the Vatican chose Law to celebrate the Mass because he leads an important church, not as a personal honor.
Still, the assignment gave Law a position of influence ahead of the papal election, which is set to begin next Monday.
In suburban Boston, Voice of the Faithful, a lay Catholic organization founded in response to the clergy sex abuse crisis which claims 30,000 members, said Law should not have celebrated the Mass and should not take part in the conclave that will select a new pope.
"Cardinal Law is a living symbol of the Catholic Church's failures in dealing with the underlying causes of sexual abuse," the group's president, James E. Post said, in a statement. He called the scandal "one of the darkest stains on John Paul II's legacy," and said Law's high-profile role is a painful reminder of the abuse and cover-up.
The Survivors Network, which claims more than 5,600 members, has spent more than a decade pressing U.S. bishops to acknowledge the scope of molestation in the church.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and Law, through an aide, declined to comment on his participation in the Mass. The Survivors Network had asked the American cardinals to intervene to stop Law, but Blaine said they did not respond.
Blaine, who said a priest began molesting her when she was about 12 and who received an $80,000 settlement from the Diocese of Toledo, Ohio, contended the Vatican — not her group — was responsible for making abuse an issue during the papal transition. She did not oppose Law's voting in the conclave.
On the one hand, John Paul is praised for being a man among the people, aware, educated, sensitive, compassionate.
So when sex abuse scandals are all over the media, American and foreign, shall we then say the Pope had no knowledge other than that given him by assistants?
I don't buy it for a second, WordWolf. If he had a shred of a hint that this was going on, it was morally incumbent upon him, and imperative, that he take the lead. To suggest he was concerned with more important, spiritual matters is somehow disingenuous, given what Jesus taught us about children.
John Paul was a friend and defender of the pedophile priests to the end, because he used, or did not use, his power accordingly, to effectively stonewall against their prosecution. I hope he burns along with them.
somewhere between here and Cardinal Ratzinger (last stop before JP II.)
Recent (and unconfirmed, I admit) info on the Pope's successor places Ratzinger as to having a very good chance at becoming the next Pope. And if that's true, and Ratzinger has 'filtered' or otherwise was part of the coverup/squeltching of the details, then it will really mean business as usual in that department. Particularly since Ratzinger places a very high premium on defending church doctrine.
Which usually means that a situation like the publication of the sexual abuse of children runs a sizeable risk at upsetting that apple cart. ... Which Ratzinger just won't stand for.
from his holiness's holy thursday letter to priests in MARCH 2002 -
“At this time too, as priests we are personally and profoundly afflicted by the sins of some of our brothers who have betrayed the grace of Ordination in succumbing even to the most grievous forms of the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the world. Grave scandal is caused, with the result that a dark shadow of suspicion is cast over all the other fine priests who perform their ministry with honesty and integrity and often with heroic self-sacrifice. As the Church shows her concern for the victims and strives to respond in truth and justice to each of these painful situations, all of us – conscious of human weakness, but trusting in the healing power of divine grace – are called to embrace the “mysterium Crucis” and to commit ourselves more fully to the search for holiness. We must beg God in his Providence to prompt a whole-hearted reawakening of those ideals of total self-giving to Christ which are the very foundation of the priestly ministry.”
**
afflicted by the sins of our brothers who succumb to the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY
concerned for the victims
then assigned this CRIMINAL who was affected by "human weakness" to head one of the great churches in Rome and to live like a king (SUCH A DISHONOR). never mind as a cardinal, giving him decision-making power in the "church"
**
the "holy see" didn't know about the highest ranking church official in america and the scandal and $$$$money$$$$$ and the legal dah dah dah in boston diocese ? ha ha ha ha ha ha
he finally accepted law's resignation, initially rejecting it and asking him to stay on in boston
The RC church is a govt. even a religous govt. has rules and players to maintain.
This pope rode on the power of religon, who can really claim any different? Influence and power of the RC's is part of History for thousands of years. As far as scandal goes all govt. and power players will have scandal it is the NAME of the game .
Is it wrong? up for each to decide I thnk . The chance the church takes is the level of love and worship this pope has from the people compared to the scandals . In my opinion they do NOT worry to much what the people may think. It is a religon with money and power and influence who can harm them?
again many believe the link to God is bigger than any issues the group may have.
The church takes the long view. In a generation or two all of its victims will be long dead. The Catholic "church" has committed far worse crimes throughout the ages, and most of those "grievous" sins are forgotten or denied.
This is why the church's victims cannot be "patient." Time is against them. It rewards the evil that stands its ground. (Consider TWI, which follows the Vatican's example.) They cannot wait a generation or two for things to change. The so-called "institution" is made of people who sit on the crapper every day, just like everybody else. Is it any wonder they will probably elect one who defends the status quo?
Such is the gain of all of mans plans and ideas . the victims serve in a manner that allows facts to be presented and that IS very much a new ideal in the church. they will not lose their head by Kings order hopefully as in times past.. so progress is made, the least any can hope for I suppose.
the institution will not fail , people rise and fall in any govt.
John Paul was a friend and defender of the pedophile priests to the end, because he used, or did not use, his power accordingly, to effectively stonewall against their prosecution. I hope he burns along with them.
Sounds like pretty much every Christian leader there is. Every Christian group has had sex controversies, whether pedophilia, rape, incest, or whatever.
Also, I am not saying this to single out Christianity as the only source of paedophiles, it's just that I don't know how many Buddhist child molesters exist, for example. Realistically it's likely that every religion and non-religion has an equal number of child molesters. However, when you have things like teachers, priests, scout leaders, etc. they are in a position where they could easily get away with molesting children, so those types of positions attract people who want to rape kids.
"Every Christian group has had sex controversies, whether pedophilia, rape, incest, or whatever."
I agree, even the Baptist ministers who make-out with their secrataries.
"Also, I am not saying this to single out Christianity as the only source of paedophiles, it's just that I don't know how many Buddhist child molesters exist, for example. Realistically it's likely that every religion and non-religion has an equal number of child molesters. However, when you have things like teachers, priests, scout leaders, etc. they are in a position where they could easily get away with molesting children, so those types of positions attract people who want to rape kids."
I agree and I dis-agree.
On one hand, yes I think that probably 'deviants' are fairly evenly distributed through-out a society.
On the other hand, you really can not take that same idea to another society wherein such 'deviancy' is not considered wrong. To go somewhere like a predominately buddhist-taoist culture the concept of paedophilia not thought to be wrong.
I guess it all depends on which box we step inside of.
I agree these type of issues cross many sections and groups in society. To be a preditor one must find prey, also the reporting and convictions of such crimes have moved forward alot.
Shame for the victims becomes lessened when public notice of such becomes bigger and more accepted. I do NOT think the fact priests are not allowed to be married has anything to do with this issue at all. Sexual atttraction to children does NOT come from sexual urges in general it comes from a warped mind and most probably a victim . Makes me wonder why one would seek the priesthood could it be to avoid the sexual issues that they have from their own life? or even the psossibility of exposure to children with a wider scale of trust? If it is believed a homosexual KNows from a young age he /she is homosexual then it falls to reason a person would also 'know" how they respond sexualy to children from a young age. this would be a reeason to "seek" forgivness given the response our society has towards phediphiles. the church would fall into an easy way to either avoid or seek children in such a case wouldnt it?
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excathedra
i know i know
(i've tried to stay away from all the pope threads due to my personal lack of respect for the whole joint)
but when i saw your thread i had to respond. "laughed" my head off when i heard this on the news
well i'm not really adding anything because if i get started i might not stop
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rascal
Geeze, just when I started having some respect for the group...it all gets flushed down the toilet.
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Mister P-Mosh
I brought this up with my wife, and she explained it in such a way that I can understand, even if I don't agree with it.
The apostle Paul was a mass murderer, and there were many horrible "sinners" who later asked forgiveness and became high-ranking members of Jesus' group, or in the case of Paul, leader of all Christians. Jesus taught forgiveness, which to Catholics mean that this guy should be forgiven if he is sorry for his role in the abuse.
Sure it's not sane, but forgiveness is a core doctrine of Christianity. Also, the Pope moved this guy to a position where he would not be able to shuffle around abusers. Ultimately, I would have preferred to see this guy thrown in jail or something, but I'm not a religious person.
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satori001
Didn't Paul repent first? Law's so-called apology was on the heels of a huge expose done by the Boston Globe, and in the face of dozens of lawsuits. This is the same jerk who allowed John Geoghan to be in charge of ALTER BOYS even after he had been warned by one of his own friggin' bishops. Heartfelt apology my foot, he was still covering for the church.
Where is the Vatican's contrition? And who gives a damn how "contrite" they say they are when they honor priests like Bernie Law?
Hey you Catholics, whadd'ya think Jesus would really do if he were to walk through the Vatican today?
Ashes and rubble.
This, among many other "signs and wonders" belies the so-called "Pope's" true virtue, the patron saint of the pedophile priests.
Damn, the guy flashes a smile, travels around the world, and spouts a lot of inane platitudes and he can do no wrong. The media sucks it up.
He can go straight to hell for what he really was. What a godless, goddam sham.
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oldiesman
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vickles
ok, am I missing something? This article is talking finances. Can you explain?
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rascal
Vickle, the cardinal that preformed the popes funeral service....a huge prestigous honor....is none other than the guy who moved a KNOWN pedophile priest from parish to parish in the usa for decades... never bothering to warn the new parishes, placing him in charge of alterboys etc....and when those in his charge were caught....numerous times....this guy covered the tracks of the pedophiles and intimidated families into silence.
He has been biding his time in a different abby since being ousted from the usa.
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vickles
OOOOHHHHHHH WOW!!!!! Now that is a biggy.
Thanks for explaining it. I'm tongue tied!!!!
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excathedra
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer
VATICAN CITY - Cardinal Bernard Law, whose failures to stop sexually abusive priests sparked the worst crisis in American church history, led a Mass for thousands mourning Pope John Paul II at St. Peter's Basilica on Monday after police whisked away a victim protesting outside.
Law celebrated the Mass without disruption, saying in his homily that Italian, Polish and other pilgrims were inspiring in their huge tribute to John Paul. Nearly 3 million mourners flooded Rome for the pontiff's funeral last week.
"In these incredible days, the pope continues to teach us what it means ... to be a follower of Christ," Law said, reading slowly in Italian. "Our faith has been reinforced."
After the service, several worshippers from Europe said they had never heard of Law. American parishioners said they recognized him, but questioned whether the protest was appropriate right after the pope died.
"It's not the time or the place," said Mary Beth Bauer, who lives in Maine and had followed the abuse crisis and Law's resignation.
But some Catholics said seeing the cardinal presiding over Mass at one of the most significant sites for their faith was another sign that the Vatican did not understand the betrayal parishioners felt that he protected guilty priests.
Barbara Blaine, founder of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, and Barbara Dorris, also a leader of the advocacy group, said the Vatican's choice of Law devastated victims.
"We believe he should take a back seat and stay in the background so Catholics can grieve without having to have the sex abuse scandal in their face," said Blaine, who had flown into Rome just hours before the Mass.
At St. Peter's Square, Blaine planned to distribute fliers, but was quickly surrounded by Italian officers who moved her without incident outside the plaza. The officers did not respond when asked why she was removed, but Blaine said they told her that news cameras were not allowed.
Blaine said she felt compelled to travel to the Vatican from her home in Chicago after learning of Law's public role in memorializing the pope. The Mass is one of nine daily services for the pope for the period of mourning called Novemdiales.
Law resigned as archbishop of Boston in December 2002 after unsealed court records revealed he had moved predatory clergy among parishes for years without telling parents their children were at risk. He has apologized for his wrongdoing.
More than 550 people have filed abuse claims in Boston in recent years, and the archdiocese has paid more than $85 million in settlements. The scandal erupted in Boston in January 2002 and spread nationwide, causing what American Catholic bishops have called the worst crisis in the U.S. church.
After Law's resignation, the pope appointed him archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica in Rome, one of four basilicas under direct Vatican jurisdiction.
Some church leaders have said the Vatican chose Law to celebrate the Mass because he leads an important church, not as a personal honor.
Still, the assignment gave Law a position of influence ahead of the papal election, which is set to begin next Monday.
In suburban Boston, Voice of the Faithful, a lay Catholic organization founded in response to the clergy sex abuse crisis which claims 30,000 members, said Law should not have celebrated the Mass and should not take part in the conclave that will select a new pope.
"Cardinal Law is a living symbol of the Catholic Church's failures in dealing with the underlying causes of sexual abuse," the group's president, James E. Post said, in a statement. He called the scandal "one of the darkest stains on John Paul II's legacy," and said Law's high-profile role is a painful reminder of the abuse and cover-up.
The Survivors Network, which claims more than 5,600 members, has spent more than a decade pressing U.S. bishops to acknowledge the scope of molestation in the church.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and Law, through an aide, declined to comment on his participation in the Mass. The Survivors Network had asked the American cardinals to intervene to stop Law, but Blaine said they did not respond.
Blaine, who said a priest began molesting her when she was about 12 and who received an $80,000 settlement from the Diocese of Toledo, Ohio, contended the Vatican — not her group — was responsible for making abuse an issue during the papal transition. She did not oppose Law's voting in the conclave.
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WordWolf
One of the services-there were something like 7-8 services.
Cardinal Law (ironic name) was relocated to Europe after Catholics in the US
called for his beheading.
I'm unsure the degree to which JP II was informed of the Cardinal's crimes of
conspiracy, and aiding and abetting. I strongly suspect the details were lost
somewhere between here and Cardinal Ratzinger (last stop before JP II.)
I'd need a bit more evidence before I'd be ready to accuse JP II of conspiracy
in this. I think it's more likely he's guilty of being unsufficiently informed
before making critical decisions. Did anyone spot him saying he WAS aware
of Law's crimes, or those of the pervert? Was he spotted helping Law shred
documents?
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excathedra
ha !!!!! you're not serious are you wordwolf ?
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satori001
On the one hand, John Paul is praised for being a man among the people, aware, educated, sensitive, compassionate.
So when sex abuse scandals are all over the media, American and foreign, shall we then say the Pope had no knowledge other than that given him by assistants?
I don't buy it for a second, WordWolf. If he had a shred of a hint that this was going on, it was morally incumbent upon him, and imperative, that he take the lead. To suggest he was concerned with more important, spiritual matters is somehow disingenuous, given what Jesus taught us about children.
John Paul was a friend and defender of the pedophile priests to the end, because he used, or did not use, his power accordingly, to effectively stonewall against their prosecution. I hope he burns along with them.
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GarthP2000
I agree.
Recent (and unconfirmed, I admit) info on the Pope's successor places Ratzinger as to having a very good chance at becoming the next Pope. And if that's true, and Ratzinger has 'filtered' or otherwise was part of the coverup/squeltching of the details, then it will really mean business as usual in that department. Particularly since Ratzinger places a very high premium on defending church doctrine.
Which usually means that a situation like the publication of the sexual abuse of children runs a sizeable risk at upsetting that apple cart. ... Which Ratzinger just won't stand for.
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excathedra
from his holiness's holy thursday letter to priests in MARCH 2002 -
“At this time too, as priests we are personally and profoundly afflicted by the sins of some of our brothers who have betrayed the grace of Ordination in succumbing even to the most grievous forms of the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the world. Grave scandal is caused, with the result that a dark shadow of suspicion is cast over all the other fine priests who perform their ministry with honesty and integrity and often with heroic self-sacrifice. As the Church shows her concern for the victims and strives to respond in truth and justice to each of these painful situations, all of us – conscious of human weakness, but trusting in the healing power of divine grace – are called to embrace the “mysterium Crucis” and to commit ourselves more fully to the search for holiness. We must beg God in his Providence to prompt a whole-hearted reawakening of those ideals of total self-giving to Christ which are the very foundation of the priestly ministry.”
**
afflicted by the sins of our brothers who succumb to the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY
concerned for the victims
then assigned this CRIMINAL who was affected by "human weakness" to head one of the great churches in Rome and to live like a king (SUCH A DISHONOR). never mind as a cardinal, giving him decision-making power in the "church"
**
the "holy see" didn't know about the highest ranking church official in america and the scandal and $$$$money$$$$$ and the legal dah dah dah in boston diocese ? ha ha ha ha ha ha
he finally accepted law's resignation, initially rejecting it and asking him to stay on in boston
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mj412
The RC church is a govt. even a religous govt. has rules and players to maintain.
This pope rode on the power of religon, who can really claim any different? Influence and power of the RC's is part of History for thousands of years. As far as scandal goes all govt. and power players will have scandal it is the NAME of the game .
Is it wrong? up for each to decide I thnk . The chance the church takes is the level of love and worship this pope has from the people compared to the scandals . In my opinion they do NOT worry to much what the people may think. It is a religon with money and power and influence who can harm them?
again many believe the link to God is bigger than any issues the group may have.
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satori001
The church takes the long view. In a generation or two all of its victims will be long dead. The Catholic "church" has committed far worse crimes throughout the ages, and most of those "grievous" sins are forgotten or denied.
This is why the church's victims cannot be "patient." Time is against them. It rewards the evil that stands its ground. (Consider TWI, which follows the Vatican's example.) They cannot wait a generation or two for things to change. The so-called "institution" is made of people who sit on the crapper every day, just like everybody else. Is it any wonder they will probably elect one who defends the status quo?
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mj412
of course they will Satori, what eles is there?
Such is the gain of all of mans plans and ideas . the victims serve in a manner that allows facts to be presented and that IS very much a new ideal in the church. they will not lose their head by Kings order hopefully as in times past.. so progress is made, the least any can hope for I suppose.
the institution will not fail , people rise and fall in any govt.
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Mister P-Mosh
Sounds like pretty much every Christian leader there is. Every Christian group has had sex controversies, whether pedophilia, rape, incest, or whatever.
Also, I am not saying this to single out Christianity as the only source of paedophiles, it's just that I don't know how many Buddhist child molesters exist, for example. Realistically it's likely that every religion and non-religion has an equal number of child molesters. However, when you have things like teachers, priests, scout leaders, etc. they are in a position where they could easily get away with molesting children, so those types of positions attract people who want to rape kids.
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Galen
P-Mosh:
"Every Christian group has had sex controversies, whether pedophilia, rape, incest, or whatever."
I agree, even the Baptist ministers who make-out with their secrataries.
"Also, I am not saying this to single out Christianity as the only source of paedophiles, it's just that I don't know how many Buddhist child molesters exist, for example. Realistically it's likely that every religion and non-religion has an equal number of child molesters. However, when you have things like teachers, priests, scout leaders, etc. they are in a position where they could easily get away with molesting children, so those types of positions attract people who want to rape kids."
I agree and I dis-agree.
On one hand, yes I think that probably 'deviants' are fairly evenly distributed through-out a society.
On the other hand, you really can not take that same idea to another society wherein such 'deviancy' is not considered wrong. To go somewhere like a predominately buddhist-taoist culture the concept of paedophilia not thought to be wrong.
I guess it all depends on which box we step inside of.
:-)
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mj412
I agree these type of issues cross many sections and groups in society. To be a preditor one must find prey, also the reporting and convictions of such crimes have moved forward alot.
Shame for the victims becomes lessened when public notice of such becomes bigger and more accepted. I do NOT think the fact priests are not allowed to be married has anything to do with this issue at all. Sexual atttraction to children does NOT come from sexual urges in general it comes from a warped mind and most probably a victim . Makes me wonder why one would seek the priesthood could it be to avoid the sexual issues that they have from their own life? or even the psossibility of exposure to children with a wider scale of trust? If it is believed a homosexual KNows from a young age he /she is homosexual then it falls to reason a person would also 'know" how they respond sexualy to children from a young age. this would be a reeason to "seek" forgivness given the response our society has towards phediphiles. the church would fall into an easy way to either avoid or seek children in such a case wouldnt it?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
anybody got a smoke
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excathedra
just make sure it's not a confession box
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
what color of smoke is the approval a new pope?
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excathedra
incense black
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