I`d have to say that to do so would be to admit that twi was not what he believed it to be dear Oak.....
One HAS to have a convenient way to deny and dismiss these facts or be forced into the realisation that we were used and discarded like so much garbage.......
Mr. Hamm, I am in agreement with you....I am so ashamed that evil was able to function and prosper effectively camouflaged behind our integrety and good names.
Perhaps the nature of twi's conditioning reached down into a very vulnurable and delicate area of the individuals psyche...and perhaps the habit patterns that had developed, oftentimes motivated by fear, resulted in a form of "learned helplessness"...perhaps it was subtle, perhaps it was not. In either case, the end result was like a junkie who continues to shoot up because of the instant gratification of a desired state of mind. Both allurring and destructive in the long run.
GrouchoMarx, Jr., thanks for bringing that up. I ran into this term this semester and also thought about my experience with twi. As most of you probably already know, "learned helplessness" is used when people with disabilities begin to rely on their supports, usually people, who help them to do certain things and then they no longer try to do for themselves. I looked it up in the glossary and it is defined as:
"A phenomenon in which individuals gradually, usually as a result of repeated failure or control by others, become less willing to attempt tasks."
Yep. That about sums it up. Sure, we can all look back now and say, "Why did I let them do that" but on some level it was more of a subconscious decision I believe on my part. We were conditioned to do things in twi a certain way and then, even though they were painful, we continued to do them.
I remember some taught the "what I would do I do not and what I hate, I do" version of Romans a lot which contributed to my "it's not supposed to feel good to be a Christian dilemma."
I remember many days wondering what ever happened to the more abundant life I thought I was getting into!
Well, at least another possibility is that there are some folks who are just simply miserable, in or out of twi.
I would accept that as a possibility. Still don't know why you can't accept that some folks, while not physically coerced or "brainwashed", stayed in for reasons other than being "blessed", i.e. fear, unaware of better options, trying to save a marriage, etc.
All the people who tell their stories must be wrong about their perceptions, and you must be right -->
quote:
These folks set their affection on things of the earth, not on things above.
Which is why it might be hard for them to abandon their misery.
Most of those who posted here have abandoned their misery...you don't seem to believe it.
Well, at least another possibility is that there are some folks who are just simply miserable, in or out of twi.
SOME perhaps. The MOST miserable I have seen were stuck somewhere in a nice cosey leadership position where their job in life was well, to MAKE us miserable. Really- the next to last branch character I knew here thought something was wrong because we could still smile at times. Too happy. Well- she solved that "problem" in short order.
I'll tell you what made me "miserable"- probably at the worst- when I found out what my love, labor and ABS REALLY supported.
It helped buy the "lovemobile" for the mog, so he could conveniently have an army of nice, "fresh meat" ushered in any hour of day or night to take care of his supposed "need".
It helped pay the salary of "sex slaves" for Loy the Boy. Yes, sex was attached to the job description.
It paid for the chalet, the office, and the desk on which the bastard humped anything he could, except for his wife.
It paid to SILENCE wrongdoings, small and great.
It helped to pay for a second-rate fool's stupid kid to get an education that I could only DREAM of.
It helped finance "three way's" for the mog.
It CONTINUES to provide spiritually inept, evil, and downright devilish people with a life of luxury that most can only dream of..
All this is just the tip of the iceberg of what's happened in that joint.. no lawsuits, I probably never would have known. I think we know only less than one percent of what really happened there.
I am not miserable, now.. but when I think of this stuff, it makes me mad. Years wasted, thousands of dollars down the hole- neither of which can ever be recovered.
Not to mention the possibe hundreds of other folks I helped induct into that sad state of affairs.
Oldies, I just don't see how you don't get it..
My impression is that the hateful and criminal activities of those bastards doesn't even BOTHER you- please tell me that I am wrong.
Darn it Mr. Hamm, you went and got me mad all over again....
*It CONTINUES to provide inept, evil, and downright devlish people with a life of luxury that most can only dream of*..... sigh ....reason enough for me to continue shouting our stories from the roof tops to warn folks away from that bunch.
With lcm at the helm, howard and don were simply yes-men to support lcm's false prophecies. ...
With lcm at the helm, donna and rosie were "whispering in the mog's ear" and he was oblivious.
Skyrider, from what I know Don Wierwille was never a yes-man as you claim, and your claim that LCM was oblivious to Donna and Rosalie's counsel is patently false. In fact, THAT was a primary cause of a lot of the legalistic problems of TWI-2, when LCM stopped listening to Don & Howard, and instead took his counsel from Donna and Rosalie. And Donna and Rosalie have been "in charge" now for about 10 years or so.
quote:
I would accept that as a possibility. Still don't know why you can't accept that some folks, while not physically coerced or "brainwashed", stayed in for reasons other than being "blessed", i.e. fear, unaware of better options, trying to save a marriage, etc.
Oakspear, I have accepted that some possibly stayed around for reasons you describe, especially spouses trying to save a marriage. That makes sense.
quote:
What did you mean by "TWI left you"?
Just a figure of speech I suppose, but when I bowed out of a neighboring fellowship, they couldn't care less if I attended ever again, and the leadership in the area didn't give a fig either. I was getting on their case (all of them, from the area coordinator on down) about starting the twig on time, because the TC kept on waiting 30 minutes for late folks to arrive, before starting the meeting. And they called my complaints "legalism". This was in 1991, before the REAL legalism started. Anyway, folks that were once GIANTS in believing in the Bronx, reduced themselves to embarrassments. These folks were good folks and were not evil, but lost their brains somewhere along the line.
I was miserable so I left, and everyone was happy. Can't wait to get invited back.
gee oldiesman you must be on broadway! it is a fanticy land as i believe you are living in too!! many people stayed cause they did not have to much choice i.e. saving marrages
Cool, I bet there were. I also bet there were folks who LEFT, to keep their marriages together. I saw that happen to my TC's in 1989. The wifey wanted out, and the hubby followed right along, but he told me he would have stayed in twi if he weren't married.
If I had left TWI with out hubby, especially when I first wanted to leave TWI, my husband would have been mobbed by leadership, I would have been totally demonized and Hubby would have been encouraged to divorce me and fight for complete custody of kids.
I'd seen others in my branch go through that, and didn't want it. At least if I was there I could soften stuff for my kids and talk reason into my husband. And I loved my husband.
Things may have been different in early Way days, but in the nineties it was gruesome, at least in my area. One of the divorcing couple had to be the evil one, one the faithful one. And if you left the Way, well, you were definitly evil and devil posessed.
Cool, I bet there were. I also bet there were folks who LEFT, to keep their marriages together. I saw that happen to my TC's in 1989. The wifey wanted out, and the hubby followed right along, but he told me he would have stayed in twi if he weren't married.
Now who was running THAT show?
Whose running THAT show??????
Certainly you are not implying that the man left TWI against his will because of the actions of his wife! As you know, the man made his decsion and is responsible for his actions. If he had wanted to stay...he could have.
Sounds like Oldiesdude is just trying to get us to take a little responsibility ourselves for hanging out with the TWI tribe. That's healthy, don't you think? Yes, they were a bad bunch, no doubt, and we got tricked, but to some degree that was, as Oldies says, our own fault.
Now, Oldies, I also think that most of us have indeed taken that responsibility, acknowledged that we were "had", and are double-darn-sure to never get tricked again.
Mr. O, you must admit, that the Trick-er is more at fault than the Trick-ee. And the Trick, itself, was entrenched in spiritual darkness. We were "miserable" in the name of God. That's really sick. That's really sad. And I think the (dark) spiritual component is what kept us "in".
While I agree that we should accept the responsibility for being so tricked, I also believe we should pat ourselves on the back for living long enough to tell the tale.
This was in 1991, before the REAL legalism started. Anyway, folks that were once GIANTS in believing in the Bronx, reduced themselves to embarrassments. These folks were good folks and were not evil, but lost their brains somewhere along the line.
Thanks, Oldiesman.
You've finally provided evidence sufficient for me to believe you really lived/live
on a different planet than me.
As of lcm's "line-in-the-sand/draw-the-line-in-89",
the five boroughs of New York City deserted twi en masse.
That includes all the outlying counties as well.
As of 1990, the Bronx had about 2 families remain, with the heaviest "spiritual
heavyweights" being INTERMEDIATE-class grads. Anyone resembling a "giant",
"heavyweight", or a "MEDIUMWEIGHT" had left. Those remaining, relatively speaking,
were of NEGLIGIBLE skill. (That's going from interacting with them.) The heaviest
weight left in the Bronx was referred to as "annoying" in the most complimentary
references to him. (He MIGHT have been an Advanced class grad, MAYBE.) I include
him when I count "negligible skill", also.
Let me put it another way.
If I had stayed and been in the Bronx,
I would have been about the heaviest-hitter they had remaining.
If you can honestly view anyone IN, in the Bronx as of 1991, as a "GIANT",
then you operate using either a vocabulary or a worldview that barely
intersects my own.
What's next-saying that when they walked, the earth shook?
They may have been good folks and not evil-those I knew, I would say that of-
but they lacked CONVICTION (else they would have followed their conscience
rather than stay with the familiar)
INDEPENDENCE (when I left, I said I was leaving alone if nobody else was leaving) or SKILL WITH SCRIPTURES (else they would have seen the "mark and avoid" verse
Oldies, I must ask for a PT with the names of those to whom you are referring. Since I was in the Bronx at the time, no doubt I know who these heavyweights were.
I can think of only two. One was corps at the time, stayed in and is still in until this day. He tried to persuade WordWolf and me to stay using, quite possibly, one of the stupidest lines of reasoning I'd ever heard. God chose VPW and VPW chose LCM by revelation, so LCM had to be the right choice or God was stupid. Never mind that God chose King Saul.
The other used the now infamous line, "I'm going to stand with the ministry that taught me the Word!"
To which WordWolf and I responded, "Great. We're going to stand with the Word. See you after the Gathering."
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rascal
Why is it so hard for oldies to accept?
I`d have to say that to do so would be to admit that twi was not what he believed it to be dear Oak.....
One HAS to have a convenient way to deny and dismiss these facts or be forced into the realisation that we were used and discarded like so much garbage.......
Mr. Hamm, I am in agreement with you....I am so ashamed that evil was able to function and prosper effectively camouflaged behind our integrety and good names.
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oldiesman
Why Stay When You're Miserable?
Well, at least another possibility is that there are some folks who are just simply miserable, in or out of twi.
These folks set their affection on things of the earth, not on things above.
Which is why it might be hard for them to abandon their misery.
Maybe it always was...
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waterbuffalo
GrouchoMarx, Jr., thanks for bringing that up. I ran into this term this semester and also thought about my experience with twi. As most of you probably already know, "learned helplessness" is used when people with disabilities begin to rely on their supports, usually people, who help them to do certain things and then they no longer try to do for themselves. I looked it up in the glossary and it is defined as:
"A phenomenon in which individuals gradually, usually as a result of repeated failure or control by others, become less willing to attempt tasks."
Yep. That about sums it up. Sure, we can all look back now and say, "Why did I let them do that" but on some level it was more of a subconscious decision I believe on my part. We were conditioned to do things in twi a certain way and then, even though they were painful, we continued to do them.
I remember some taught the "what I would do I do not and what I hate, I do" version of Romans a lot which contributed to my "it's not supposed to feel good to be a Christian dilemma."
I remember many days wondering what ever happened to the more abundant life I thought I was getting into!
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skyrider
To me, the question...."Why stay when you're miserable?"....is too vague.
With lcm at the helm, twi was violating the research keys that they claimed to propose.
With lcm at the helm, howard and don were simply yes-men to support lcm's false prophecies.
With lcm at the helm, "the word WAS over the world" was idiotic rationalization.
With lcm at the helm, twi was spiraling out of control at multiple levels.
With lcm at the helm, donna and rosie were "whispering in the mog's ear" and he was oblivious.
With lcm at the helm, the full-time corps "revelation" was a fiasco.
With lcm at the helm, the wannabes like Reynolds, Rupp, Horney, Spaghetti were noodlers.
When it finally became crystal clear TO LEAVE................I LEFT.
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rascal
Lol Oldies, it appears to be the common concensus by most folks here, that we WERE miserable in twi and that the misery ended when we LEFT!
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Bramble
Rascal--the misery ended when we left--yup! Life has been much more 'abundant' since we left!
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Oakspear
All the people who tell their stories must be wrong about their perceptions, and you must be right
-->
Most of those who posted here have abandoned their misery...you don't seem to believe it.What did you mean by "TWI left you"?
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A la prochaine
OM,
You are absolutely right!
Your words couldn't ring any truer!
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Took the words right outta my mouth!
I never left twi....yup that's right....YOU STILL THINK JUST AS IF YOU WERE IN TWI...YOU'RE STILL THERE.
Thank you for your honesty.
:D-->
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Ham
SOME perhaps. The MOST miserable I have seen were stuck somewhere in a nice cosey leadership position where their job in life was well, to MAKE us miserable. Really- the next to last branch character I knew here thought something was wrong because we could still smile at times. Too happy. Well- she solved that "problem" in short order.
I'll tell you what made me "miserable"- probably at the worst- when I found out what my love, labor and ABS REALLY supported.
It helped buy the "lovemobile" for the mog, so he could conveniently have an army of nice, "fresh meat" ushered in any hour of day or night to take care of his supposed "need".
It helped pay the salary of "sex slaves" for Loy the Boy. Yes, sex was attached to the job description.
It paid for the chalet, the office, and the desk on which the bastard humped anything he could, except for his wife.
It paid to SILENCE wrongdoings, small and great.
It helped to pay for a second-rate fool's stupid kid to get an education that I could only DREAM of.
It helped finance "three way's" for the mog.
It CONTINUES to provide spiritually inept, evil, and downright devilish people with a life of luxury that most can only dream of..
All this is just the tip of the iceberg of what's happened in that joint.. no lawsuits, I probably never would have known. I think we know only less than one percent of what really happened there.
I am not miserable, now.. but when I think of this stuff, it makes me mad. Years wasted, thousands of dollars down the hole- neither of which can ever be recovered.
Not to mention the possibe hundreds of other folks I helped induct into that sad state of affairs.
Oldies, I just don't see how you don't get it..
My impression is that the hateful and criminal activities of those bastards doesn't even BOTHER you- please tell me that I am wrong.
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rascal
Darn it Mr. Hamm, you went and got me mad all over again....
*It CONTINUES to provide inept, evil, and downright devlish people with a life of luxury that most can only dream of*..... sigh ....reason enough for me to continue shouting our stories from the roof tops to warn folks away from that bunch.
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Ham
Yep. Sometimes, all it takes for me is for somebody to post about the "good old days" heh heh.
I don't get too mad though- at least I can laugh about some of the stuff now..
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Ham
After all that- I think we are STILL in a spiritual fight. Real devilish stuff.
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oldiesman
I was miserable so I left, and everyone was happy. Can't wait to get invited back.
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Ham
No answer.. oh well.
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oldiesman
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
gee oldiesman you must be on broadway! it is a fanticy land as i believe you are living in too!! many people stayed cause they did not have to much choice i.e. saving marrages
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oldiesman
Cool, I bet there were. I also bet there were folks who LEFT, to keep their marriages together. I saw that happen to my TC's in 1989. The wifey wanted out, and the hubby followed right along, but he told me he would have stayed in twi if he weren't married.
Now who was running THAT show?
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nandon
dam oldies, she must have been hot.
stayed because of parnets..
when parents left,, i left.
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Bramble
If I had left TWI with out hubby, especially when I first wanted to leave TWI, my husband would have been mobbed by leadership, I would have been totally demonized and Hubby would have been encouraged to divorce me and fight for complete custody of kids.
I'd seen others in my branch go through that, and didn't want it. At least if I was there I could soften stuff for my kids and talk reason into my husband. And I loved my husband.
Things may have been different in early Way days, but in the nineties it was gruesome, at least in my area. One of the divorcing couple had to be the evil one, one the faithful one. And if you left the Way, well, you were definitly evil and devil posessed.
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WeWereScammed
Whose running THAT show??????
Certainly you are not implying that the man left TWI against his will because of the actions of his wife! As you know, the man made his decsion and is responsible for his actions. If he had wanted to stay...he could have.
Sound familiar?
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Xena
Sounds like Oldiesdude is just trying to get us to take a little responsibility ourselves for hanging out with the TWI tribe. That's healthy, don't you think? Yes, they were a bad bunch, no doubt, and we got tricked, but to some degree that was, as Oldies says, our own fault.
Now, Oldies, I also think that most of us have indeed taken that responsibility, acknowledged that we were "had", and are double-darn-sure to never get tricked again.
Mr. O, you must admit, that the Trick-er is more at fault than the Trick-ee. And the Trick, itself, was entrenched in spiritual darkness. We were "miserable" in the name of God. That's really sick. That's really sad. And I think the (dark) spiritual component is what kept us "in".
While I agree that we should accept the responsibility for being so tricked, I also believe we should pat ourselves on the back for living long enough to tell the tale.
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Ham
Sure, I was tricked, naive, deceived, stupid, call it whatever you want.. my fault? Yep- have to claim primary responsability.
But to take advantage of that- it's criminal, in my opinion. At the very least, despicable, evil and devilish.
Its not a crime to be stupid.. but it is to take advantage of an "idiot". Most people are not smart enough to see the man behind the curtain.
God have mercy on those bastards..
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WordWolf
Thanks, Oldiesman.
You've finally provided evidence sufficient for me to believe you really lived/live
on a different planet than me.
As of lcm's "line-in-the-sand/draw-the-line-in-89",
the five boroughs of New York City deserted twi en masse.
That includes all the outlying counties as well.
As of 1990, the Bronx had about 2 families remain, with the heaviest "spiritual
heavyweights" being INTERMEDIATE-class grads. Anyone resembling a "giant",
"heavyweight", or a "MEDIUMWEIGHT" had left. Those remaining, relatively speaking,
were of NEGLIGIBLE skill. (That's going from interacting with them.) The heaviest
weight left in the Bronx was referred to as "annoying" in the most complimentary
references to him. (He MIGHT have been an Advanced class grad, MAYBE.) I include
him when I count "negligible skill", also.
Let me put it another way.
If I had stayed and been in the Bronx,
I would have been about the heaviest-hitter they had remaining.
If you can honestly view anyone IN, in the Bronx as of 1991, as a "GIANT",
then you operate using either a vocabulary or a worldview that barely
intersects my own.
What's next-saying that when they walked, the earth shook?
They may have been good folks and not evil-those I knew, I would say that of-
but they lacked CONVICTION (else they would have followed their conscience
rather than stay with the familiar)
INDEPENDENCE (when I left, I said I was leaving alone if nobody else was leaving) or SKILL WITH SCRIPTURES (else they would have seen the "mark and avoid" verse
lcm claimed applied here did no such thing.)
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Raf
There were giants in the Bronx in those days...
Oldies, I must ask for a PT with the names of those to whom you are referring. Since I was in the Bronx at the time, no doubt I know who these heavyweights were.
I can think of only two. One was corps at the time, stayed in and is still in until this day. He tried to persuade WordWolf and me to stay using, quite possibly, one of the stupidest lines of reasoning I'd ever heard. God chose VPW and VPW chose LCM by revelation, so LCM had to be the right choice or God was stupid. Never mind that God chose King Saul.
The other used the now infamous line, "I'm going to stand with the ministry that taught me the Word!"
To which WordWolf and I responded, "Great. We're going to stand with the Word. See you after the Gathering."
Giants? In their minds, maybe.
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