"Of course this wasn't referring to you, Galen, but you wouldn't go the funeral or wake of someone you respected?"
I did not meant that, exactly.
I do go to funerals, I have had the honour of performing a few, I have had to attend numerous, and I have been pall-bearer.
Personally I am either performing the funeral, I just dont go to a funeral of anyone that I did not know in life.
I usually wear a dress uniform in fact. The last one [was 6 months ago] most everyone there was military, maybe a third of the crowd was on active duty, and yet I was the only one there in uniform. An Honour guard did show up for the grave-side, but there was still no other uniforms beyond myself and the honour guard.
"Many of those who viewed the body were people who loved and respected the Pope during his life"
I would certainly expect tha tamong them would have been those who knew him. And I would think that those who knew him, or who worked in the Vatican, or who were directly effected by the man's ministry; that they would likely all go to the funeral, or wake.
"Gee, you can't imagine anyone having empathy for the victims of a tragedy like that? Trefor answered for himself very well, but I too am hit "powerfully and emotionally", yet no one died in my arms or bled on me...despite having family in NYC I didn't know any of the victims."
They were the victims of a war being fought against the World-Trade-Organization and those who protect it. The episode of West Wing called: 'Isaac and Ishmal' explains it very well.
I have seen deaths. No the 'emotion' drawn by watching someone die on TV, is little for me. Had I known someone who died there? I dont know I might 'feel' more, I really dont know.
"But the first time I drove east toward New York after the attacks the hole in the skyline where the towers USED TO BE was a profoundly sad moment."
Were you that familiar with the skyline of NYC?
"Looking at a hole in the ground where thousands of people lived and worked, a block and a half where I worked during a teenage summer,"
The skyline had not changed since then? I would have assumed that with buildings going up here and there, old buildings getting torn down and replaced that the skyline would have changed a little each year.
Galen, I don't think you're a heartless SOB, but sometimes you come across as one.
You also come across as a bit mindlessly stubborn. For about the tenth time, the attack on the WTC had nothing, nada, zip to do with the WTO. They are two completely different things.
You also come across as a bit egocentric. Wacky's questions about others wanting to personally pay their respects to the Pope had nothing to do with who or what you might pay your respects to, or how or when you might do that.
Many people loved John Paul II in a very personal way. Many more loved him for who he was, what he stood for, and his faithful and loving exercise of his office. Many others honored him as one of the greatest forces for good in the last century. It is completely understandable that of the many billions of people he benefitted, several million would choose to pay their respects in person, during the only few days when it is possible to do so. In a few hours, he will be entombed in a place that is not publicly accessible, so anyone who has not paid their respects in person will never be able to do so. It is completely understandable that many people would avail themselves of that one-time opportunity.
Many people loved John Paul II in a very personal way. Many more loved him for who he was, what he stood for, and his faithful and loving exercise of his office. Many others honored him as one of the greatest forces for good in the last century. It is completely understandable that of the many billions of people he benefitted, several million would choose to pay their respects in person, during the only few days when it is possible to do so.
LG, you said it. I just heard that an estimate of about 2 billion people will be watching this worldwide.
Speaking of influence, though, even in death this man has incredible influence. What other event could could get the presidents of the United States and Iran to sit next to each other?
They were the victims of a war being fought against the World-Trade-Organization and those who protect it. The episode of West Wing called: 'Isaac and Ishmal' explains it very well.
Galen,
The World Trade Organization (WTO) is not (was not) located at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York. Two totally different organizations. The "war" as you call it was not against those in the World Trade Center, but rather it is part of a larger war against America and Christianity. The WTC represented capitalism, thus was a target; just as the Pentagon was a target because of what it represents.
If you get your perspective on world affairs from episodes of The West (left) Wing you will surely have difficulty understanding much of what goes on in the world.
If you want to see the face of the enemy, go to Michael Savage's website and watch the videos of the radical muslims beheading Americans and others. Have a VERY strong stomach, but these should be required viewing for every American.
The Pope was revered and respected by billions, and it is perfectly natural for many to pilgrim to Rome to pay respects.
Imagine if LCM would have croaked while you were in the way - and HQ said we want all our followers to come to New Knoxville to pay respects to our great leader - 90% of you would have gone - guarantee it.
With the Pope, no one is demanding that the pilgrims come - they come out of respect for the man and the leader of their church.
What I don't understand are the nimrods in LA standing in line 4 MONTHS before the latest Star Wars movie opens (at another theater).
They were the victims of a war being fought against the World-Trade-Organization and those who protect it. The episode of West Wing called: 'Isaac and Ishmal' explains it very well.
Sorry, I don't watch "West Wing", perhaps you should expand your information sources beyond "West Wing", since you are obviously misinformed. LongGone & TaylorCompany make the point about the non-connection between the WTO and the WTC. What about the attack on the Pentagon? Totally unrelated? -->
quote:
I have seen deaths. No the 'emotion' drawn by watching someone die on TV, is little for me. Had I known someone who died there? I dont know I might 'feel' more, I really dont know.
We all have different emotional makeups. We are all affected differently by events of this sort. I don't understand why you feel you must belittle those who were affected.
quote:
Were you that familiar with the skyline of NYC?
I grew up in NYC, I watched the towers go up when I was in elementary school. I worked less than two blocks from them when I was in high school. So...yeah
quote:
The skyline had not changed since then? I would have assumed that with buildings going up here and there, old buildings getting torn down and replaced that the skyline would have changed a little each year.
Yeah, buildings get destroyed by passenger planes flown by fanatical terrorists every year. They were very big buildings Galen, their absence is notable. Are you that dense, or are you being an (*) on purpose?
I watched the trade towers go up too...but from a different vantage point in NJ. I watched visually from a roadway in my neighborhood and I heard all about them from an electrician who helped wire them...he was my next door neighbor.
And when they fell down and burned...if the wind was blowing in the wrong direction I also smelled the rubble for months.
Driving home on rt 17 that day caused me to weep - I had to pull over because I could see the smoke from the fires....it seemed from where I was that it went all the way up past "heaven"...went to the top of the sky.
Ya know...I've been thinking...if "they" wanted to take out something uniquely American, they could have taken Mt Rushmore or the Statue of Liberty....but it was an attack on American soil but on worldly wealth in general....IMNSHO. [but perhaps this discussion should be in a different thread so we don't derail this one?]
Galen is not an idiot. His personality and his training just make him a man cut from a different cloth than most of the rest of us...but it's not inferior merchandise...it's just "different".
No one suggested that Galen is an idiot. He is, however, extremely stubborn in holding to his error, and insistent on proclaiming it. I have pointed out to him that WTC and WTO are completely different several times, and at least once included links to Internet sites where he could inform himself, if he so chose.
Wacky, I don't totally get it, either. It's a complicated mix of emotions and religious leanings and group psychology.
I prayed for JP2 and I felt bad for his suffering, just as I would for anyone I knew about and admired. I understand respecting the man for who he was and the good he accomplished, but I don't get standing in line for many, many hours in the burning sun to see the dead body of someone I never met. Even if I were a Roman Catholic I don't think I'd get it.
I don't criticize the people who are weeping in the streets, but I don't fully understand. I cried when VP died because I knew him and liked him and had worked with him some. (Had I known some of the things he'd been up to, my tears might have been diminished.) I cried when Reagan died because the media showed all those poignant films and scenes of his widow at his casket, and the whole "event" of his death and burial brought to mind a time in our country that holds fond memories for me.
I think whoever quoted "no man is an island" is onto something--our shared humanity links us emotionally to people we've never met. But I think whoever said "it's a happening" is right, too. Some people just want to be where history is happening/has happened, or they just like to be around the hooplah. Odd creatures, we humans!
When I attended the wake of a close friend's mother, I met a well-dressed, distinguished, seemingly normal elderly couple there. I asked how long they'd known Mrs. so-and-so. "Oh, we didn't know her," they replied. "We just go to all the wakes in town." Weird, but apparently for some people a local get-togehter isn't to be missed, even if there's a dead body in the middle of the "party."
Me, I looked at those crowds and thought, "I'd sooner walk on hot coals than be crammed together with that many people and standing in line that long--for ANY reason."
Something no one has mentioned is a sort of mass hysteria that kicks in during events like this. Reminds me of when Princess Di died. I felt awful that such a lovely young woman had met an untimely end, but I didn't want to fly to England to put a flower on her grave.
And no, I wouldn't light a candle at Graceland--sorry, Elvis fans. :D-->
I wouldn't go to graceland...but, I did go to ground zero to pray my respects...I have walked Auschwitz...
I never cried when vpw died...I didn't know him, nor ever worshipped him.
Did you see those crowds and lines? Could you imagine not peeing for 24 hours? but needed water? What are these people thinking....very tight...very uncomfortable for my taste.
I did see the eyes of the crowds tho...and do see the depth in them.
T'was me that quoted John Donne Linda Z he goes on to say that the death of every man diminshes him and that never to ask for whom the bell tolls... it tolls for thee...
A young friend of mine was killed in a motorcycle accident some years ago. On the first aniversary of his death a few of us rode on our motorcycles to the spot where it happened and left flowers and had a short commemoration. Never been back to that spot since (have driven past it a couple of times) and think of him when I have done that. However I used often to visit his grave and leave flowers until I moved away from Bristol. Whenever I return to Bristol, which isn't often these days, I still go.
Some of us will do that for people we knew and loved, some others of us can feel that also for people we never actually knew but viewed from afar. Some tragedy or event created a special sense of respect and loss. It might be a TV programme about a old person being found dead in their flat and only strangers, and very few at that, attending the funeral or it might be the sense that something in the world has changed because a great figure has died. It's not always a matter of numbers.
“Noooo..."Ground Zero" is where the world's center of international trade USED TO BE, before cowardly terrorists flew a planeload of innocent people into it.”
Well, they thought in their minds that they were at ‘war’, and that is possibly why our military had a hunch that such was coming, long before it did.
Long gone-
“Galen, I don't think you're a heartless SOB, but sometimes you come across as one.”
Thank you.
“…For about the tenth time, the attack on the WTC had nothing, nada, zip to do with the WTO. They are two completely different things.”
And for no doubt the tenth time, I disagree.
It has been a couple years since I last attended one, but I have completed a few courses on anti-terrorism. It is almost ‘ALL’ about symbolism.
They do have a legitimate point of view, and strong arguments for their actions. To dismiss them all as ‘crazy’, or without an agenda is insulting both to them, as well as to ourselves.
What was attacked was chosen for it’s symbology. I only recall seeing the WTO towers once. It was while we were in NYC to perform a wedding on a ferry crossing. We were offered a tour of them, and told that they were the “world's center of international trade” As Oakspear called them.
I don’t care who actually owned them, or what was actually done in them, it was all about symbology.
I was at one time told that they were the center of all the world’s international trade. Oakspear was under that impression as well. That is how ‘they’ billed themselves. An immigrant coming into NYC, no doubt was told the same thing. They were a symbol.
It could have been used by farmer’s insurance as office space for all I care, They were a symbol of the WTO.
Any non-Newyorker, like myself, like an immigrant, like anyone in Europe, like anyone outside of Greasespot, would have assumed that they were what they billed themselves as. They were in some manner connected with World Trade.
Yes I know I have said this many times before.
“You also come across as a bit egocentric”
Again thank you.
“Many people loved John Paul II in a very personal way….”
I am sure they did, which was why way back at the beginning of all this I stated: “Because lots of people respected him.”
Taylor-
“The World Trade Organization (WTO) is not (was not) located at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York. Two totally different organizations.”
Wonderful.
As I have stated on other threads previously, it was all about the symbol.
The commonly excepted symbol.
“The "war" as you call it …”
Being a US servicemember, yes I call it what I called it when I was still in uniform. Why? Because that is what ‘Islamic Extremists’ would call it.
“The WTC represented capitalism, thus was a target;”
This was almost taken directly word-for-word from previous posts that I have written, Yes, thank you Taylor for agreeing with me on this topic.
Our Empire takes over so many nations, we put in McDonalds on their street corners and Babe-watch on their TVs.
”If you get your perspective on world affairs from episodes of The West (left) Wing you will surely have difficulty understanding much of what goes on in the world.”
LOL
I gave that as yet another further example of what I have been saying since I got back stateside, Mar’01. Long before I ever saw West-Wing. And right before the WTO attacks.
I was thinking that perhaps now that I live here again, it would be some common metaphor that some of you would share, my bad.
I have gained my perspective from serving on-board US submarines as ‘Command Intelligence Officer’ and as ‘Intelligence librarian’. I have gained my perspective from living in Scotland for 3 years. I have gained my perspective from living in Italy for 3 years. I have gained my perspective from serving in Kosovo.
“If you want to see the face of the enemy, go to Michael Savage's website and watch the videos of the radical muslims beheading Americans and others. Have a VERY strong stomach, but these should be required viewing for every American.”
LOL
I served. I was awarded for service in Kosovo, killing Christians in the defense of Muslims, while muslims were yet killing and raping native Christian families there.
I have ‘seen’ it, I have heard cries, pleadings for mercy. Thank you.
Oakspear-
“We all have different emotional makeups. We are all affected differently by events of this sort. I don't understand why you feel you must belittle those who were affected.”
I did not mean to be disrespectful, of them. I fully acknowledge that they go to the funeral out of respect. I am simply stating that I don’t go unless I knew the person, or I am performing the service.
I am very glad that I was able to be among the last wave of retirees allowed right before the ‘stop-loss’ went into effect in preparations for the coming attacks.
“I grew up in NYC, I watched the towers go up when I was in elementary school. I worked less than two blocks from them when I was in high school. So...yeah”
I did not realize that they had stood so long, when were they built?
“Yeah, buildings get destroyed by passenger planes flown by fanatical terrorists every year. They were very big buildings Galen, their absence is notable. Are you that dense, or are you being an (*) on purpose? “
They were buildings in the middle of miles of buildings. I still don’t see the emotional connection to them. Call me names all you wish. Buildings are built, the skyline must change some every year. I am just assuming here, from your posts obviously I am wrong.
Excuse me, those buildings were there since Noah was a seaman and everyone else had a strong attachment to them?
Okay fine.
Krysilis-
“Galen is not an idiot. His personality and his training just make him a man cut from a different cloth than most of the rest of us...but it's not inferior merchandise...it's just "different".”
I have been told that before, many times in fact. : - )
Thank you, you are very sweet.
Long gone-
“No one suggested that Galen is an idiot. He is, however, extremely stubborn in holding to his error, and insistent on proclaiming it. I have pointed out to him that WTC and WTO are completely different several times, and at least once included links to Internet sites where he could inform himself, if he so chose.”
And I have continually re-stated that it is about symbols, and what they stood for. All terrorist attacks are usually about symbols, When things get attacked is always on dates that are important, anniversaries, or someone somewhere’s holyday.
Anti-terrorism newsletters [which I recently canceled my subscription to] compare and go into detail on these issues.
Galen, we agree about the importance of symbolism, just not what the symbolism was. The 9/11 attacks were aimed at three important symbols of American power; financial, military, and governmental (the presumed target of the plane that went down in PA). They were not aimed, either physically or symbolically, at the World Trade Organization.
Of course there was symbolism in the intended targets.
What they mean to those attacked is not necessarily the same as to the attackers.
Nor could they have envisaged the chain of events which brought the towers down due to structural problems that the original designer did not envisage.
For the USA and the World the WTC said "New York" just as much as the Empire State, the Chrysler and the Statue of Liberty do.
No doubt the new Liberty Tower (I hated the design myself) will do also.
But the human side - the deaths and the sacrifices speak even louder. Buildings can be replaced but the people cannot.
I confess to not understanding this thread. I read it a couple of times through. :D-->
The reverence and respect for the Pope, and the long lines of millions of people being there, makes total sense to me.
I wish I could explain it better, but the way I see it is, the world is looking for a mog, a bit of kindness, in the whole mess of things. I think we all hunger for a saviour, a man who will save us from ourselves, a better answer than war and strife....
The pope represented the best of humanity. It's only natural that people who take their faith seriously would show up. And even those that are wondering what it's all about?
They were buildings in the middle of miles of buildings. I still don’t see the emotional connection to them. Call me names all you wish. Buildings are built, the skyline must change some every year. I am just assuming here, from your posts obviously I am wrong.
Excuse me, those buildings were there since Noah was a seaman and everyone else had a strong attachment to them?
Okay fine.
You made some good points about symbolism in this thread in your attempt to connect the World Trade Center to the World Trade Organization, cannot you not see that the connection, attachment, whatever, is not to the buildings, but that they are a symbol of those who died there?
Maybe if I was Ayn Rand's character Howard Roark I would mourn the actual buildings, but the emotion, the sense of loss is for the senseless deaths, not for replaceable buildings.
Geez, Galen, I apologize for suggesting that you were dense and trying to be an (*), but c'mon, it isn't that tough to understand, whether you agree with the sentiment or not.
To get back to the Pope -- Ex10 said it best! :)-->
quote:
The pope represented the best of humanity. It's only natural that people who take their faith seriously would show up. And even those that are wondering what it's all about?
It ain't hard to figure out.....
I don't think he should even be mentioned with WTO, WTC, or even WTF. He was a good man, and really did represent the *best* of what mankind can be.
He happened to be a solid rock, that a lot of folks found,and admired, while shuffling through the shifting sands of life.
"No doubt the new Liberty Tower (I hated the design myself) will do also."
I thought that 'they' were still arguing over what design to finally build.
"But the human side - the deaths and the sacrifices speak even louder. Buildings can be replaced but the people cannot."
We lose a lot of civilians, it seems that everytime one nation or group wants to do something, civilians die at their hands.
The Armenian genocide of 1915 that killed 1.5 million civilians.
WWI [1914-18] had 13 million civilian deaths,
The Russian Civil war [1917-22] had 9 million civilian deaths,
Stalin's regime killed [1924-1953] 20 million civilians and returning POWs were killed.
WWII [1937-45] Hitler killed 5.5 million civilians in camps about half were Jews:
The remainder were Romanians, homosexuals, handicapped, Catholics, Poles, and Freemasons.
The Nazis also killed: 0.5 million civilians during air raids, 9 million soviet civilians during their Northern push.
The Soviets killed 3.9 million POWs, 170,000 minorities, and 1 million Soviet military who had been POWs, but who then tried to return home.
Japan killed 200,000 civilians in China during the Nanking massacre, then they killed 200,000 Chinese civilians during germ-warfare, then South-East Asia marches and massacres include 16,000 POWs and 100,000 civilians.
America killed 500,000 civilians while bombing Germany, and 360,000 civilians bombing Japan, and 50,000 civilians bombing Romania, and 56,000 POWs died of starvation in our camps.
Mussolini killed 224,000 civilians [mostly Ethiopia and Libya civilians, but also 9,000 Greeks, and some Italians].
Romania killed 302,000 civilian Jews in their own non-German death camp
France killed 9,000 civilian collaborators.
In post-war political purges: Italy killed 15,000 civilians, the Netherlands killed 40 civilians and Norway killed 25 civilians.
After WWII another 2.1 million Germans died while being 'expelled' from various East European nations.
The Chinese civil war [1945-49] killed 2.5 million civilians.
Mao Zedong [1949-75] killed 40 million civilians in various political purges.
The occupation of Tibet killed many civilians. During the campaign 1.2 million civilians, then in labour camps 260,000 civilians died, and 65,000 civilians landowners and priests died.
It seems to me that commonly civilians do die at the hands of nations and groups.
Could it be that the attacks on 9/11...all of them...strike us so hard because they are the first in which a foreign enemy killed civilians on our own home turf? We used to think we were invincible...now we know we're not.
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Galen
Oakspear:
"Of course this wasn't referring to you, Galen, but you wouldn't go the funeral or wake of someone you respected?"
I did not meant that, exactly.
I do go to funerals, I have had the honour of performing a few, I have had to attend numerous, and I have been pall-bearer.
Personally I am either performing the funeral, I just dont go to a funeral of anyone that I did not know in life.
I usually wear a dress uniform in fact. The last one [was 6 months ago] most everyone there was military, maybe a third of the crowd was on active duty, and yet I was the only one there in uniform. An Honour guard did show up for the grave-side, but there was still no other uniforms beyond myself and the honour guard.
"Many of those who viewed the body were people who loved and respected the Pope during his life"
I would certainly expect tha tamong them would have been those who knew him. And I would think that those who knew him, or who worked in the Vatican, or who were directly effected by the man's ministry; that they would likely all go to the funeral, or wake.
"Gee, you can't imagine anyone having empathy for the victims of a tragedy like that? Trefor answered for himself very well, but I too am hit "powerfully and emotionally", yet no one died in my arms or bled on me...despite having family in NYC I didn't know any of the victims."
They were the victims of a war being fought against the World-Trade-Organization and those who protect it. The episode of West Wing called: 'Isaac and Ishmal' explains it very well.
I have seen deaths. No the 'emotion' drawn by watching someone die on TV, is little for me. Had I known someone who died there? I dont know I might 'feel' more, I really dont know.
"But the first time I drove east toward New York after the attacks the hole in the skyline where the towers USED TO BE was a profoundly sad moment."
Were you that familiar with the skyline of NYC?
"Looking at a hole in the ground where thousands of people lived and worked, a block and a half where I worked during a teenage summer,"
The skyline had not changed since then? I would have assumed that with buildings going up here and there, old buildings getting torn down and replaced that the skyline would have changed a little each year.
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LG
Galen, I don't think you're a heartless SOB, but sometimes you come across as one.
You also come across as a bit mindlessly stubborn. For about the tenth time, the attack on the WTC had nothing, nada, zip to do with the WTO. They are two completely different things.
You also come across as a bit egocentric. Wacky's questions about others wanting to personally pay their respects to the Pope had nothing to do with who or what you might pay your respects to, or how or when you might do that.
Many people loved John Paul II in a very personal way. Many more loved him for who he was, what he stood for, and his faithful and loving exercise of his office. Many others honored him as one of the greatest forces for good in the last century. It is completely understandable that of the many billions of people he benefitted, several million would choose to pay their respects in person, during the only few days when it is possible to do so. In a few hours, he will be entombed in a place that is not publicly accessible, so anyone who has not paid their respects in person will never be able to do so. It is completely understandable that many people would avail themselves of that one-time opportunity.
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markomalley
Speaking of influence, though, even in death this man has incredible influence. What other event could could get the presidents of the United States and Iran to sit next to each other?
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TaylorCompany
Galen,
The World Trade Organization (WTO) is not (was not) located at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York. Two totally different organizations. The "war" as you call it was not against those in the World Trade Center, but rather it is part of a larger war against America and Christianity. The WTC represented capitalism, thus was a target; just as the Pentagon was a target because of what it represents.
If you get your perspective on world affairs from episodes of The West (left) Wing you will surely have difficulty understanding much of what goes on in the world.
If you want to see the face of the enemy, go to Michael Savage's website and watch the videos of the radical muslims beheading Americans and others. Have a VERY strong stomach, but these should be required viewing for every American.
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TaylorCompany
The Pope was revered and respected by billions, and it is perfectly natural for many to pilgrim to Rome to pay respects.
Imagine if LCM would have croaked while you were in the way - and HQ said we want all our followers to come to New Knoxville to pay respects to our great leader - 90% of you would have gone - guarantee it.
With the Pope, no one is demanding that the pilgrims come - they come out of respect for the man and the leader of their church.
What I don't understand are the nimrods in LA standing in line 4 MONTHS before the latest Star Wars movie opens (at another theater).
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Oakspear
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krys
I watched the trade towers go up too...but from a different vantage point in NJ. I watched visually from a roadway in my neighborhood and I heard all about them from an electrician who helped wire them...he was my next door neighbor.
And when they fell down and burned...if the wind was blowing in the wrong direction I also smelled the rubble for months.
Driving home on rt 17 that day caused me to weep - I had to pull over because I could see the smoke from the fires....it seemed from where I was that it went all the way up past "heaven"...went to the top of the sky.
Ya know...I've been thinking...if "they" wanted to take out something uniquely American, they could have taken Mt Rushmore or the Statue of Liberty....but it was an attack on American soil but on worldly wealth in general....IMNSHO. [but perhaps this discussion should be in a different thread so we don't derail this one?]
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krys
Galen is not an idiot. His personality and his training just make him a man cut from a different cloth than most of the rest of us...but it's not inferior merchandise...it's just "different".
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LG
No one suggested that Galen is an idiot. He is, however, extremely stubborn in holding to his error, and insistent on proclaiming it. I have pointed out to him that WTC and WTO are completely different several times, and at least once included links to Internet sites where he could inform himself, if he so chose.
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Linda Z
Wacky, I don't totally get it, either. It's a complicated mix of emotions and religious leanings and group psychology.
I prayed for JP2 and I felt bad for his suffering, just as I would for anyone I knew about and admired. I understand respecting the man for who he was and the good he accomplished, but I don't get standing in line for many, many hours in the burning sun to see the dead body of someone I never met. Even if I were a Roman Catholic I don't think I'd get it.
I don't criticize the people who are weeping in the streets, but I don't fully understand. I cried when VP died because I knew him and liked him and had worked with him some. (Had I known some of the things he'd been up to, my tears might have been diminished.) I cried when Reagan died because the media showed all those poignant films and scenes of his widow at his casket, and the whole "event" of his death and burial brought to mind a time in our country that holds fond memories for me.
I think whoever quoted "no man is an island" is onto something--our shared humanity links us emotionally to people we've never met. But I think whoever said "it's a happening" is right, too. Some people just want to be where history is happening/has happened, or they just like to be around the hooplah. Odd creatures, we humans!
When I attended the wake of a close friend's mother, I met a well-dressed, distinguished, seemingly normal elderly couple there. I asked how long they'd known Mrs. so-and-so. "Oh, we didn't know her," they replied. "We just go to all the wakes in town." Weird, but apparently for some people a local get-togehter isn't to be missed, even if there's a dead body in the middle of the "party."
Me, I looked at those crowds and thought, "I'd sooner walk on hot coals than be crammed together with that many people and standing in line that long--for ANY reason."
Something no one has mentioned is a sort of mass hysteria that kicks in during events like this. Reminds me of when Princess Di died. I felt awful that such a lovely young woman had met an untimely end, but I didn't want to fly to England to put a flower on her grave.
And no, I wouldn't light a candle at Graceland--sorry, Elvis fans.
:D-->
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Wacky Funster
ahhhh...LindaZ....a kindred soul
:)-->
I wouldn't go to graceland...but, I did go to ground zero to pray my respects...I have walked Auschwitz...
I never cried when vpw died...I didn't know him, nor ever worshipped him.
Did you see those crowds and lines? Could you imagine not peeing for 24 hours? but needed water? What are these people thinking....very tight...very uncomfortable for my taste.
I did see the eyes of the crowds tho...and do see the depth in them.
Perhaps that alone helps explain it to me.
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ChattyKathy
How beautifully honest.
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Trefor Heywood
T'was me that quoted John Donne Linda Z he goes on to say that the death of every man diminshes him and that never to ask for whom the bell tolls... it tolls for thee...
A young friend of mine was killed in a motorcycle accident some years ago. On the first aniversary of his death a few of us rode on our motorcycles to the spot where it happened and left flowers and had a short commemoration. Never been back to that spot since (have driven past it a couple of times) and think of him when I have done that. However I used often to visit his grave and leave flowers until I moved away from Bristol. Whenever I return to Bristol, which isn't often these days, I still go.
Some of us will do that for people we knew and loved, some others of us can feel that also for people we never actually knew but viewed from afar. Some tragedy or event created a special sense of respect and loss. It might be a TV programme about a old person being found dead in their flat and only strangers, and very few at that, attending the funeral or it might be the sense that something in the world has changed because a great figure has died. It's not always a matter of numbers.
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Galen
I still stand by my first post in this thread:
“Because lots of people respected him.”
Oakspear-
“Noooo..."Ground Zero" is where the world's center of international trade USED TO BE, before cowardly terrorists flew a planeload of innocent people into it.”
Well, they thought in their minds that they were at ‘war’, and that is possibly why our military had a hunch that such was coming, long before it did.
Long gone-
“Galen, I don't think you're a heartless SOB, but sometimes you come across as one.”
Thank you.
“…For about the tenth time, the attack on the WTC had nothing, nada, zip to do with the WTO. They are two completely different things.”
And for no doubt the tenth time, I disagree.
It has been a couple years since I last attended one, but I have completed a few courses on anti-terrorism. It is almost ‘ALL’ about symbolism.
They do have a legitimate point of view, and strong arguments for their actions. To dismiss them all as ‘crazy’, or without an agenda is insulting both to them, as well as to ourselves.
What was attacked was chosen for it’s symbology. I only recall seeing the WTO towers once. It was while we were in NYC to perform a wedding on a ferry crossing. We were offered a tour of them, and told that they were the “world's center of international trade” As Oakspear called them.
I don’t care who actually owned them, or what was actually done in them, it was all about symbology.
I was at one time told that they were the center of all the world’s international trade. Oakspear was under that impression as well. That is how ‘they’ billed themselves. An immigrant coming into NYC, no doubt was told the same thing. They were a symbol.
It could have been used by farmer’s insurance as office space for all I care, They were a symbol of the WTO.
Any non-Newyorker, like myself, like an immigrant, like anyone in Europe, like anyone outside of Greasespot, would have assumed that they were what they billed themselves as. They were in some manner connected with World Trade.
Yes I know I have said this many times before.
“You also come across as a bit egocentric”
Again thank you.
“Many people loved John Paul II in a very personal way….”
I am sure they did, which was why way back at the beginning of all this I stated: “Because lots of people respected him.”
Taylor-
“The World Trade Organization (WTO) is not (was not) located at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York. Two totally different organizations.”
Wonderful.
As I have stated on other threads previously, it was all about the symbol.
The commonly excepted symbol.
“The "war" as you call it …”
Being a US servicemember, yes I call it what I called it when I was still in uniform. Why? Because that is what ‘Islamic Extremists’ would call it.
“The WTC represented capitalism, thus was a target;”
This was almost taken directly word-for-word from previous posts that I have written, Yes, thank you Taylor for agreeing with me on this topic.
Our Empire takes over so many nations, we put in McDonalds on their street corners and Babe-watch on their TVs.
”If you get your perspective on world affairs from episodes of The West (left) Wing you will surely have difficulty understanding much of what goes on in the world.”
LOL
I gave that as yet another further example of what I have been saying since I got back stateside, Mar’01. Long before I ever saw West-Wing. And right before the WTO attacks.
I was thinking that perhaps now that I live here again, it would be some common metaphor that some of you would share, my bad.
I have gained my perspective from serving on-board US submarines as ‘Command Intelligence Officer’ and as ‘Intelligence librarian’. I have gained my perspective from living in Scotland for 3 years. I have gained my perspective from living in Italy for 3 years. I have gained my perspective from serving in Kosovo.
“If you want to see the face of the enemy, go to Michael Savage's website and watch the videos of the radical muslims beheading Americans and others. Have a VERY strong stomach, but these should be required viewing for every American.”
LOL
I served. I was awarded for service in Kosovo, killing Christians in the defense of Muslims, while muslims were yet killing and raping native Christian families there.
I have ‘seen’ it, I have heard cries, pleadings for mercy. Thank you.
Oakspear-
“We all have different emotional makeups. We are all affected differently by events of this sort. I don't understand why you feel you must belittle those who were affected.”
I did not mean to be disrespectful, of them. I fully acknowledge that they go to the funeral out of respect. I am simply stating that I don’t go unless I knew the person, or I am performing the service.
I am very glad that I was able to be among the last wave of retirees allowed right before the ‘stop-loss’ went into effect in preparations for the coming attacks.
“I grew up in NYC, I watched the towers go up when I was in elementary school. I worked less than two blocks from them when I was in high school. So...yeah”
I did not realize that they had stood so long, when were they built?
“Yeah, buildings get destroyed by passenger planes flown by fanatical terrorists every year. They were very big buildings Galen, their absence is notable. Are you that dense, or are you being an (*) on purpose? “
They were buildings in the middle of miles of buildings. I still don’t see the emotional connection to them. Call me names all you wish. Buildings are built, the skyline must change some every year. I am just assuming here, from your posts obviously I am wrong.
Excuse me, those buildings were there since Noah was a seaman and everyone else had a strong attachment to them?
Okay fine.
Krysilis-
“Galen is not an idiot. His personality and his training just make him a man cut from a different cloth than most of the rest of us...but it's not inferior merchandise...it's just "different".”
I have been told that before, many times in fact. : - )
Thank you, you are very sweet.
Long gone-
“No one suggested that Galen is an idiot. He is, however, extremely stubborn in holding to his error, and insistent on proclaiming it. I have pointed out to him that WTC and WTO are completely different several times, and at least once included links to Internet sites where he could inform himself, if he so chose.”
And I have continually re-stated that it is about symbols, and what they stood for. All terrorist attacks are usually about symbols, When things get attacked is always on dates that are important, anniversaries, or someone somewhere’s holyday.
Anti-terrorism newsletters [which I recently canceled my subscription to] compare and go into detail on these issues.
:-)
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LG
Last derail on this thread for me:
Galen, we agree about the importance of symbolism, just not what the symbolism was. The 9/11 attacks were aimed at three important symbols of American power; financial, military, and governmental (the presumed target of the plane that went down in PA). They were not aimed, either physically or symbolically, at the World Trade Organization.
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Galen
Then we msut continue to agree to dis-agree.
I bow to the obvious corectness of the professional.
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Trefor Heywood
Of course there was symbolism in the intended targets.
What they mean to those attacked is not necessarily the same as to the attackers.
Nor could they have envisaged the chain of events which brought the towers down due to structural problems that the original designer did not envisage.
For the USA and the World the WTC said "New York" just as much as the Empire State, the Chrysler and the Statue of Liberty do.
No doubt the new Liberty Tower (I hated the design myself) will do also.
But the human side - the deaths and the sacrifices speak even louder. Buildings can be replaced but the people cannot.
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ex10
I confess to not understanding this thread. I read it a couple of times through.
:D-->
The reverence and respect for the Pope, and the long lines of millions of people being there, makes total sense to me.
I wish I could explain it better, but the way I see it is, the world is looking for a mog, a bit of kindness, in the whole mess of things. I think we all hunger for a saviour, a man who will save us from ourselves, a better answer than war and strife....
The pope represented the best of humanity. It's only natural that people who take their faith seriously would show up. And even those that are wondering what it's all about?
It ain't hard to figure out.....
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Oakspear
Maybe if I was Ayn Rand's character Howard Roark I would mourn the actual buildings, but the emotion, the sense of loss is for the senseless deaths, not for replaceable buildings.
Geez, Galen, I apologize for suggesting that you were dense and trying to be an (*), but c'mon, it isn't that tough to understand, whether you agree with the sentiment or not.
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dmiller
To get back to the Pope -- Ex10 said it best!
:)-->
I don't think he should even be mentioned with WTO, WTC, or even WTF.
He was a good man, and really did represent the *best* of what mankind can be.
He happened to be a solid rock, that a lot of folks found,and admired, while shuffling through the shifting sands of life.
May he R.I.P.
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dmiller
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Wacky Funster
It is for me...
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Galen
Trefor Heywood:
"No doubt the new Liberty Tower (I hated the design myself) will do also."
I thought that 'they' were still arguing over what design to finally build.
"But the human side - the deaths and the sacrifices speak even louder. Buildings can be replaced but the people cannot."
We lose a lot of civilians, it seems that everytime one nation or group wants to do something, civilians die at their hands.
The Armenian genocide of 1915 that killed 1.5 million civilians.
WWI [1914-18] had 13 million civilian deaths,
The Russian Civil war [1917-22] had 9 million civilian deaths,
Stalin's regime killed [1924-1953] 20 million civilians and returning POWs were killed.
WWII [1937-45] Hitler killed 5.5 million civilians in camps about half were Jews:
The remainder were Romanians, homosexuals, handicapped, Catholics, Poles, and Freemasons.
The Nazis also killed: 0.5 million civilians during air raids, 9 million soviet civilians during their Northern push.
The Soviets killed 3.9 million POWs, 170,000 minorities, and 1 million Soviet military who had been POWs, but who then tried to return home.
Japan killed 200,000 civilians in China during the Nanking massacre, then they killed 200,000 Chinese civilians during germ-warfare, then South-East Asia marches and massacres include 16,000 POWs and 100,000 civilians.
America killed 500,000 civilians while bombing Germany, and 360,000 civilians bombing Japan, and 50,000 civilians bombing Romania, and 56,000 POWs died of starvation in our camps.
Mussolini killed 224,000 civilians [mostly Ethiopia and Libya civilians, but also 9,000 Greeks, and some Italians].
Romania killed 302,000 civilian Jews in their own non-German death camp
France killed 9,000 civilian collaborators.
In post-war political purges: Italy killed 15,000 civilians, the Netherlands killed 40 civilians and Norway killed 25 civilians.
After WWII another 2.1 million Germans died while being 'expelled' from various East European nations.
The Chinese civil war [1945-49] killed 2.5 million civilians.
Mao Zedong [1949-75] killed 40 million civilians in various political purges.
The occupation of Tibet killed many civilians. During the campaign 1.2 million civilians, then in labour camps 260,000 civilians died, and 65,000 civilians landowners and priests died.
It seems to me that commonly civilians do die at the hands of nations and groups.
:-)
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krys
Could it be that the attacks on 9/11...all of them...strike us so hard because they are the first in which a foreign enemy killed civilians on our own home turf? We used to think we were invincible...now we know we're not.
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