Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)

[outofdafog]

water buffalo,

i think it might have been because it was from VPW and I really respected him at the time. it was pretty exciting being in the mind-set I was, fairly new to the ministry and i was already getting word of prphecy from the teacher himself.

i guess true word of prophecy could come into play during the course of a person's life. like specifically if God was trying to tell you something and you weren't listening so he had to tell somebody else.........oh gosh is that still waybrain? or does that make sense. is that biblically accurate?

[waterbuffalo]

well, imho, i think someone could give you a word, meaning the Holy Spirit could literally give you a message to give to someone else and I don't think there is really any formula regarding when you could get it--only you don't know ahead of time you're going to get it and then it's there and you give it to the individual it's intended for.

The times I've been given something for someone else, it was for someone in my church that I had a relationship with and it was very brief and to the point and they received a confirmation regarding it. Again, I don't try to operate formulas anymore because, imho, that's not how the Holy Spirit works. I don't believe it's because they weren't listening. It might be because they were and what I said just confirmed it many times.

Also, regarding people lining up and receiving a word--I mean it could be accurate, why not? When it has been for me, it rang true and I knew it.

I don't know how CES does it.

[mj412]

why would ya have to practice then?

and why would it so general as to not make a difference or very detailed for those who they knew and trusted in the group?

I do not get it.

I will tell you I know I have had others "speak for God" to me, I believe it completely. I for the longest time couldnt figure out this prolem I had went to dr. prayed sought consel, then one day I said something in passing to a group of artist I was with one night as we sat around doing our work, just the hum of conversation going around ya know.. no details nothing then this girl said something and I dropped my brush.. it was the answer.

I knew it all along but had completely forgotten it. I looked at her and she never so much as lifted her eyes from her work.

I stood amazed and awestruck and the fact there it was the answer completely. she didnt realize. I said this is amazing just amazing and another chimed in yes it is as if she felt it to.

I truly believ it was Holy spirit and the body working together .

but this PP stuff that CES does is a magic show and tell.

[waterbuffalo]

that's it, mj. I think that's how it happens most often.

[wyteduv58]

I had P.P. over me when J.L came to our non-ministry fellowship and I was humiliated in front of the whole fellowship, I will never allow that to happen to me again and I told J.L. that I loved him but did not beleive P.P. was right when it embarrased people so much.

BTW I'm still friends with him and he has sent me some wonderful

tapes and e-mails.

[ChasUFarley]

Galen - Yes, the LDS church does do PP but it's more like what's done with the WC when they graduate or when a couple is married and a word of prophsey is given - it's not a whole lot about the future but more like words of edification - in other words, it's pretty generic...

======================

It's a good thing we're in the "grace administration" with this pp stuff because according to the Old Testament a true phrophet was known by his words coming true... when it didn't come true then he was stoned!

======================

For me, the CES pp thing has a "Want-fries-with-that-manifestation?" feel to it... Phrophets shouldn't be a dime-a-dozen and the hit-n-miss experiences people have had tells me it's not totally from God... I'm sure some of it is but... I thought it was a gift - not a manifesation.... I had a chance to have it done once at a meeting but thought it was a bunch of bunk. After reading this thread I think I had a good snapshot of it back then....

[Galen]

ChasUFarley:

"Galen - Yes, the LDS church does do PP but it's more like what's done with the WC when they graduate or when a couple is married and a word of prophsey is given - it's not a whole lot about the future but more like words of edification - in other words, it's pretty generic..."

Okay,

I have a friend whom I served with onboard the USS Casimir Pulaski, who is a Mormon. He relayed to me that his PP when he was sent out on his 'mission field' [which in his case was a Naval Career] included specific foretelling. And even after having graduated the PFAL class, I was shown a transcript of his PP. He asked me that if at some future time, his PP did come true, would I obligate myself to assist him. When he retired from Naval service, he returned to being an active member of the LDS church, though he was not terribly active during his career. So my understanding was that on occassion it has been known that a Mormon PP could include foretelling.

The proof in the pudding is whether or not the foretelling comes true.

:-)

[jimdoop]

Postaholic

Yes you may call it like is, you have to make that spirtial judgement. My experience with ces I believe IObserved a work that was headed toward spirtial corruption. What I mean by that Is they are under the law, they do not rightly didvide the word of God. They are putting thier followers back under the law. I believe that they have broken a Man of God, John Lynn. The years of service he gave to the work of God can not be questioned. I know that many people have had problems with him, even as I. But It's not an easy job standing up in front of people teaching The Word and not making many misstakes, I did and we all do. Were just trying to do the best job we can because we the Lord so much and we are just trying to share are Love for Him.

I shant go on any longer about him jal, because I could go on for days. Again I say Ces is a counterfet. And thier leadership are courrup and I predict they will go the way of other loosers.

[jimdoop]

quote:

Originally posted by Galen:

Hammeroni:

I think that anyone who walks around with a name-tag proclaiming that they are thee prophet of a ministry, so just a little too self-important. I would probably not last too long in such a fellowship.

jdoop @myway. com

My understanding was that we can ALL prophecy [assuming that we are all in-fellowship and that we each beleive to]. Obviously now since I have spent time here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I have come to realize that many were 'prophecying' knowingly falsehoods. After having read so many confessions of people who faked what they did. It never really occured to me that anyone would do that.

We can see where anyone of us can be tricked, so many beleivers and yet so many differing opinions of how to worship. Presuming that there is a single method which is better, than obviously all other methods must be somewhat less than best. With so many opposing doctrines, there must be churches out there teaching completely wrong stuff. If their leaders truly beleive what they teach [which assumes that they are not 'faking' their ministrys, like so many previous leaders in TWI did], then when they do prophecy some of it MUST be wrong.

I had assumed [yes I know what assuming does] that this passage was talking about any fellowship, where 2 or 3 stand to give words of either prophecy or interpretation. That everyone else is to listen and judge.

If you find 'fault' then quitely afterwards and politely speaking at length with the 'prophet', to see if the issue can be resolved.

Obviously interupting any service, whether in my home, or at a big hall, would not be decent and orderly. If this came from the leader of a big ministry, then I would presume that you've heard the guy speak before you came to this one meeting. If you think his doctrine is off, have you spoken with him about it? Have you spoken with others? Why are you still supporting him then?

"Obviously there are more than five prophets present- three speak, "others" judge. Not impossible I suppose, but to me it would be out of the ordinary to have five prophets running amok in a little local fellowship somewhere.."

Again, are not we all each one of us, a prophet, or a pastor, or a healer, or a recruiter, or a teacher? Even if we are not currently energizing our personal ministry, we still have some type of ministry.

"Plus- I've been thinking about some of the instructions we got about prophecy. Here its not "if any man should speak" like with tongues and interpretation- here they are specifically named, "prophets"."

No doubt you've been in fellowships wherein one person was really good at prayer for your healing. Did you hang a sign around their neck? Likely not. So you did not proclaim them to be a 'healer'. But if someone was in need, who did you send them to? Obviously the person whom you knew to have a long-suit at healing. The 'healer'.

Ever have a grease-monkey in your fellowship who had really terrible social-skills, but that his prophecys were just wonderful? He had a great heart to help everyone and just kept wanting to give to others? Did anyone write 'prophet' on his name-tag? I doubt it. [actually I was just describing a guy we once had in our twig, he lives in Detroit now].

"I remember ole doc's instructions, that this is "the best guidance" we have for operation of "the regular" manifestation of prophecy- I kind of question this now though."

Really you dont see it?

your great you know that right?

:-)

[jimdoop]

quote:

Originally posted by Galen:

Hammeroni:

I think that anyone who walks around with a name-tag proclaiming that they are thee prophet of a ministry, so just a little too self-important. I would probably not last too long in such a fellowship.

My understanding was that we can ALL prophecy [assuming that we are all in-fellowship and that we each beleive to]. Obviously now since I have spent time here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I have come to realize that many were 'prophecying' knowingly falsehoods. After having read so many confessions of people who faked what they did. It never really occured to me that anyone would do that.

We can see where anyone of us can be tricked, so many beleivers and yet so many differing opinions of how to worship. Presuming that there is a single method which is better, than obviously all other methods must be somewhat less than best. With so many opposing doctrines, there must be churches out there teaching completely wrong stuff. If their leaders truly beleive what they teach [which assumes that they are not 'faking' their ministrys, like so many previous leaders in TWI did], then when they do prophecy some of it MUST be wrong.

I had assumed [yes I know what assuming does] that this passage was talking about any fellowship, where 2 or 3 stand to give words of either prophecy or interpretation. That everyone else is to listen and judge.

If you find 'fault' then quitely afterwards and politely speaking at length with the 'prophet', to see if the issue can be resolved.

Obviously interupting any service, whether in my home, or at a big hall, would not be decent and orderly. If this came from the leader of a big ministry, then I would presume that you've heard the guy speak before you came to this one meeting. If you think his doctrine is off, have you spoken with him about it? Have you spoken with others? Why are you still supporting him then?

"Obviously there are more than five prophets present- three speak, "others" judge. Not impossible I suppose, but to me it would be out of the ordinary to have five prophets running amok in a little local fellowship somewhere.."

Again, are not we all each one of us, a prophet, or a pastor, or a healer, or a recruiter, or a teacher? Even if we are not currently energizing our personal ministry, we still have some type of ministry.

"Plus- I've been thinking about some of the instructions we got about prophecy. Here its not "if any man should speak" like with tongues and interpretation- here they are specifically named, "prophets"."

No doubt you've been in fellowships wherein one person was really good at prayer for your healing. Did you hang a sign around their neck? Likely not. So you did not proclaim them to be a 'healer'. But if someone was in need, who did you send them to? Obviously the person whom you knew to have a long-suit at healing. The 'healer'.

Ever have a grease-monkey in your fellowship who had really terrible social-skills, but that his prophecys were just wonderful? He had a great heart to help everyone and just kept wanting to give to others? Did anyone write 'prophet' on his name-tag? I doubt it. [actually I was just describing a guy we once had in our twig, he lives in Detroit now].

"I remember ole doc's instructions, that this is "the best guidance" we have for operation of "the regular" manifestation of prophecy- I kind of question this now though."

Really you dont see it?

your great you know that right?

I really like where your comming from. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of all of this prophece business. What is the The profit in the manifestation of speaking in tongues and prophecy Is to edify comfort and joy.

Long before I met vp I or we the acts had people comming aroung giving personal prophece and everytime I got that felling in my gut, that said WATCH OUT. When I heard the teaching about personal prophece, and how someonelce, was going to get revalation about your life, before God had given it to you. I said right on and amen and amen God will tell you to do something and it might be confermed by some other means. I have had this happend to me many times and when this happens it is so right on. It feels right, but forget the feelings, If you make the right choice, the doors just open up wide for you. And you do not have to waite. Once you make that commitement, it happens right now.

Love you al Jimmy doop

:-)

[jimdoop]

quote:

Originally posted by Clearwater:

I agree that true prophecy or a personal prophecy should be right 100% of the time if it from the true God. What I don't understand is how anyone can say that it doesn't have to be right 100% of the time or anyone can say anything and if they are wrong so what. This goes back to no accountability.

Maybe one of the people at CES, Jeff USAF RET or anyone else who I see in the cafe on occassion connected with CES can answer the question about why CES thinks the scriptures allow for a prophectic council. And doesn't a prophetic council isolate one from personal responsibility for a prophecy that is wrong?

The term prophetic council makes a person think that a bunch of people sit around and discuss another/different prophecy and determine its merits. If this is the practice, where is it in the scriptures? Where is there an example in the scripture where this practice happened?

Did not all of the Old Testament prophets take action when told by God and there wasn't any prophectic council. The "council" was from God and what God said happened. What scriptures does the Way or CES use to allow for the practice of having a prophetic council? Where is the accountability???

I think I have the answer. I believe if you make one prophecy that does not come to pass you are not a prophet and fall into the category of being false prophet. If this is not the case, how would anyone ever know what prophecy is from God and what is not? If you have a different viewpoint on this please join the discussion.

[jimdoop]

quote:

Originally posted by jimdoop:

quote:

Originally posted by Clearwater:

I agree that true prophecy or a personal prophecy should be right 100% of the time if it from the true God. What I don't understand is how anyone can say that it doesn't have to be right 100% of the time or anyone can say anything and if they are wrong so what. This goes back to no accountability.

Maybe one of the people at CES, Jeff USAF RET or anyone else who I see in the cafe on occassion connected with CES can answer the question about why CES thinks the scriptures allow for a prophectic council. And doesn't a prophetic council isolate one from personal responsibility for a prophecy that is wrong?

The term prophetic council makes a person think that a bunch of people sit around and discuss another/different prophecy and determine its merits. If this is the practice, where is it in the scriptures? Where is there an example in the scripture where this practice happened?

Did not all of the Old Testament prophets take action when told by God and there wasn't any prophectic council. The "council" was from God and what God said happened. What scriptures does the Way or CES use to allow for the practice of having a prophetic council? Where is the accountability???

I think I have the answer. I believe if you make one prophecy that does not come to pass you are not a prophet and fall into the category of being false prophet. If this is not the case, how would anyone ever know what prophecy is from God and what is not? If you have a different viewpoint on this please join the discussion.

You are right on Jimmy D

[jimdoop]

Boes someone really walk around with a name tag proclaming to be the profit? I can believe it, if someone will conferm it. I think someone is trying to make a joke, which I find to be ver funny. If it is true, its very sad. Please let me know who is doing this. jdoop

[TheEvan]

Galen (I think) wrote:

quote:

With so many opposing doctrines, there must be churches out there teaching completely wrong stuff. If their leaders truly beleive what they teach [which assumes that they are not 'faking' their ministrys, like so many previous leaders in TWI did], then when they do prophecy some of it MUST be wrong.

Hmmm, not so sure about that, Galen. Balaam probably didn't have any scriptures, being a mystic for another religion altogether. Yet God used that very flawed instrument to bring forth some very beautiful words that stand in scripture to this day.

I think when we start wilfully opening our mouth and presuming to speak for God, that's when trouble begins. Even if our doctrine is completely right. Jesus' "doctrine", he said, was to do the will of the Father.

[ex10]

Evan

You really bring out a great point.

I think the problem most of us have with "personal prophecy" is the ego and presumption that we think goes along with it.

[dmiller]

quote:

I think the problem most of us have with "personal prophecy" is the ego and presumption that we think goes along with it.

Ex10 -- boy isn't that the truth. -->

We got sidetracked in life by a cult, that propounded a few good things, some other not so good things, and now we manage to judge the entirety of our live's (afterwards) by what we learned while we were *in*.

That doesn't "compute" in my two-bit brain, although I agree with what you are saying. We were brain-washed into thinking a certain way, and now seem to think (and judge these matters), based only on the circumstances that were the

*factor* for brainwashing us in the first place.

The valid biblical occurances of such things are just that -- valid. It is a crying shame that we still look at the valid, though the eyeshade of the ludicrious, and try to make a competent evaluation, based on what we have learned, from the ludicrous, about the valid. :(-->

[alfakat]

dmiller ---- CONGRATS!!! Your last paragraph is a GreaseSpot Gem O' The Month as handed out by one of it's charter sign-ups -- Moi. Please pick up your award at your earliest convenience... :D--> -->

[Linda Z]

quote:

I think when we start wilfully opening our mouth and presuming to speak for God, that's when trouble begins.

This, from Evan, is another gold-star Greasespot Gem.

While I still believe that every believer has the gift of holy spirit, I firmly believe that WHEN and HOW God wants us to prophesy or pray/believe for a miracle or minister healing is for GOD to say, not us. For it is GOD at work within us to will and to do of HIS good pleasure.

[jimdoop]

quote:

Originally posted by jimdoop:

quote:

Originally posted by jimdoop:

quote:

Originally posted by Clearwater:

I agree that true prophecy or a personal prophecy should be right 100% of the time if it from the true God. What I don't understand is how anyone can say that it doesn't have to be right 100% of the time or anyone can say anything and if they are wrong so what. This goes back to no accountability.

Maybe one of the people at CES, Jeff USAF RET or anyone else who I see in the cafe on occassion connected with CES can answer the question about why CES thinks the scriptures allow for a prophectic council. And doesn't a prophetic council isolate one from personal responsibility for a prophecy that is wrong?

The term prophetic council makes a person think that a bunch of people sit around and discuss another/different prophecy and determine its merits. If this is the practice, where is it in the scriptures? Where is there an example in the scripture where this practice happened?

Did not all of the Old Testament prophets take action when told by God and there wasn't any prophectic council. The "council" was from God and what God said happened. What scriptures does the Way or CES use to allow for the practice of having a prophetic council? Where is the accountability???

I think I have the answer. I believe if you make one prophecy that does not come to pass you are not a prophet and fall into the category of being false prophet. If this is not the case, how would anyone ever know what prophecy is from God and what is not? If you have a different viewpoint on this please join the discussion.

You are right on Jimmy D

Thank you are right on. It has to be right on all the time, everytime and where in the Word have you heard of a council? Give me a brake. This can of crap can only be used on the young and stuped In the Word. Anyone who has spent anytime reading all of the Bible, will never see those words come up. It's a fraud, fonney, fake attempt to take advanage of the spirituly weak. love jimmy

[TheInvisibleDan]

quote:

Originally posted by jimdoop:

Thank you are right on. It has to be right on all the time, everytime and where in the Word have you heard of a council? Give me a brake. This can of crap can only be used on the young and stuped In the Word. Anyone who has spent anytime reading all of the Bible, will never see those words come up. It's a fraud, fonney, fake attempt to take advanage of the spirituly weak. love jimmy

Actually I think there may be sections of the Book of Acts that might be construed in such a way. And Paul attesting in Galatians to how much a certain council of "so-called pillars" at Jerusalem impressed him - not - nor contributed to him in any way.

This kind of prophetic-power-struggle thing raged on in the early church too.

Danny

[jimdoop]

quote:

Originally posted by Linda Z:

quote:

I think when we start wilfully opening our mouth and presuming to speak for God, that's when trouble begins.

This, from Evan, is another gold-star Greasespot Gem.

While I still believe that every believer has the gift of holy spirit, I firmly believe that WHEN and HOW God wants us to prophesy or pray/believe for a miracle or minister healing is for GOD to say, not us. For it is GOD at work within us to will and to do of HIS good pleasure.

[HCW]

I was talking with my business partner yesterday. He is a very intelligent, spiritual, but not religious kinda guy who, as part of our ad agency work, goes to church every sunday - - to WORK, videotaping the service for the church, our client.

He gives me an interesting perspective on the poeple who teach and what he sees them doing. His persepctive is VERY interesting AND revealing as to what's actually going on because he's not there LOOKING TO RECEIVE anything from the message. He's there to work.

He was telling me how a guest speaker last Sunday, he felt, was the "real deal." He pointed out a contrast between the guest speaker and others he's heard; not intentionally seeking to breach the prophecy subject.

Here's what he said, "Usually, its like the speaker is 'fishing.' They just throw out some things that are certain to hit somebody in the croud. The better they know the croud the easier it is to hook people with the things that they say. When they say something that you can relate to, they got you; you're hooked. I see it happening all the time. I watch them scanning the croud looking to see what hits somebody then they pounce on that."

I see personal prophecy as this type of thing on steroids. I know the idea of God almighty having a PERSONAL, specific message for ME today appeals to me. How could it NOT appeal to ANYone who feels they love God and wants a personal relationship with Him, whom they cannot see?

Anyone who loves or respects anyone they feel is in any way superior to themselves wishes a personal, specific message from them. (Can I have your autograph?) When I visit my kid's school, even kids I don't know, if I call them aside, they are "all ears" to hear what I have to say, just because an ADULT took some, specific, personal time for them. Even teenagers react positively, if you approach them right.

Imagine how much easier it is when you walk into a room where "everyone" there is already looking to recieve a message! When 'respected leader type' says, "Hey let's hear from God..."

I agree with JD. My skin crawled when the term "council" came up on this thread. In a totally non-religious context. Whenever I have to have a design approved by a council or any type of committee, the design will "never" get finished and the end project is NEVER "as good."

Even in the kitchen, "Too many cooks spoil the soup." Spiritually speaking I think Personal Prophecy is a personal, specific mockery of God.

[HCW]

quote:

Originally posted by dmiller:

We got sidetracked in life by a cult, that propounded a few good things, some other not so good things, and now we manage to judge the entirety of our live's (afterwards) by what we learned while we were *in*.

That doesn't "compute" in my two-bit brain, although I agree with what you are saying. We were brain-washed into thinking a certain way, and now seem to think (and judge these matters), based only on the circumstances that were the

*factor* for brainwashing us in the first place.

Lets not let the brilliance of the other remark to overshadow this one. Dave you must have taken your "RightON" pill that day. This point is why I'm apt to say that once one gets OUT he should specifically and purposefully drop EVERYTHING that had anything to do with TWI from your life.

Flush it all away. Take the books from your shelves, posters from your walls, etc. In so doing one would not be a dog returning to his vomit. One would be a person taking a shower after wallowing in the mud.

After flushing all of the stuff away. Move ahead with life as YOU see fit. Think about YOU and what YOU like. Its NOT selfish. "If any man rule not his own house well, how can he, the kingdom of God?"

Its imperative to take care of self BEFORE one can take care of others. It only becomes selfish when we "see a brother that has need and we have the ability to help but we shut up our bowels of compassion toward him."

Not to ramble on about this.... But. IMO

IF, I repeat IF, we, now that we are 'out' "we manage to judge the entirety of our live's (afterwards) by what we learned while we were *in*." ...

are we REALLY out???

NO.

We only THINK we are out, because being IN a cult is not a location, it has nothing to do with what fellowship you do or don't attend, not about a job one works; its a state of mind.

[alfakat]

Bingo, HCW -- you may share the award with dmiller...