Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)
By
Clearwater,
in About The Way
By
Clearwater,
in About The Way
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dmiller
Clearwater -- you said:
Ok. I'm game. Here is my story (sorry -- no biblical references to back it up -- just what happened).
JAL came to Minnesota in (around) 1995 or '96 (don't remember the year exactly), but he came up here with a guy named Greg Pharis, who did personal prophecy, and I'm guessing that this is where CES started learning about it -- from Greg Pharis.
I got a call from JAL on the phone (out of the blue), saying he would be in XXX town in Minnesota, on a certain date, and just by coincidence -- I was going to be playing fiddle at a square dance 15 miles away from where he was going to be, and on the same day, about 150 miles from where I live.
Upshot of it is -- I did the square dance, and then went to the *meeting* afterwards, and JAL pulled me aside, and said to Greg -- "I want you do do a prophecy for this guy here."
Greg -- (who didn't know me from Adam), spoke in tongues for a few moments, and then as JAL held a tape recorder, he laid my life bare before me, and said things that no one (repeat -- NO ONE), could have known.
It was more of an exhortation to *do better*, and not a condemnation for how I had been living my life. Still -- it shook me to my core, that he could be sooooo accurate, and even had to ask my name before he started.
I haven't a clue as to what CES is doing as pertains to a *prophetic council*, or whatever it was you said, but my one time experience with personal prophecy made a believer outta me. Like you said -- Paul got it, others in the Bible got it -- why shouldn't we?
It's there for the benefit of the believers, not for their condemnation. And no -- twi never did do this (imo). But then again -- I was in twi I, and perhaps they did do this in the latter years, after I left.
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dmiller
And a PS here --- Greg Pharis and CES parted ways soon after because of doctrinal issues over the trinity.
From what I gathered (and I could be wrong about this), both were looking to *convert* the other, while gleaning what they could, from diverse experiences.
Regardless of all that, I stand behind what I just said about what happened to me.
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mj412
To me it is a feel good , people pleasing minstry deed of work.
it attracts as dmiller testifys. It can also deny God as the father , as I have witnessed personal prophecy that has freaked people OUT for many years.
It is a distraction, and an attention seeking behaviour that makes for a fine show and tell that people get excited about. They show up for it and if blessed and happy will give whatever they can for the good news of confirmation.
How exciting God told me that I was wonderful!!!!! blah blah.
I know in CES they want to find out as much personal information about you as possible because they love you you know then you can get the prophecy of course and if it isnt rocking your world well it is suppose to be a "general " nuetral thing.. yeah till you bite and give them info and get deeper into it.
What man can do means so little when we have the bible and our own personal Lord and spirit .
Why do they need to have practice sessions hmm? if it from God? I know two guys who hate one another in real life and one was directed to give a prophecy to the other and the one recieving it rejected it completely because of his feelings for the dude.
ok and this confusion is from God? I think not and I will tell you this God TOLD me to leave when they started and I did . VERY FEW times in my life with the LORD has he given me a direct order like that to just leave and go home . I wanted to stay , glad I didnt tho. believe that or not. but everyone fought and the group fell apart shortly after that over what was done and siad in the practice session.
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Horse Called War
Many people feel things people tell them in cold reading by psychics are things no one could have known. Human beings project A LOT into the things someone else says especially when you think someone is speaking "for God".
Not to mention Lynn MAY have mentioned things to this person - concerns etc... "Hey there is this guy I am worried about... hasn't been around for awhile or whatever..."
Not discrediting your story here because that kind of thing is worth discussing but for those who are unfamiliar with cold reading and warm reading techniques and statements that can be true for any human - it might be worth checking out www.randi.org -
One of the offshoots of the way/ces did a personal prophecy teaching on their website where they tried to clarify the subject.
essentially, what I gathered is that they thought that personal prophecy was not "at will" as CES suggests. In the OT there were accounts like "and they prophesied saying..." but it was not really anything prophetic per say - it was more or less a reconfirmation to the person that what God had promised was going to come to pass -- like Elizabeth and Mary - when the babe (john the baptist leaped in her womb) without researching it - I think she said something like - "it shall be performed what the Lord promised etc..."
One of the ex ces websites has a board where people post- mark sanguinetti etc... you might be able to glean something from the personal prophecy board http://p087.ezboard.com/fexcesfollowerspersonalprophecy
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Ham
"Personal Prophecy: How to be a prophet without really being a prophet in twelve easy steps".
Sounds a lot like another scam I have already seen.
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George Aar
CES is pretty much a piker in the arena of "prophesying" when compared with the likes of John Edward, Sylvia Brown, James Van Pragh, et al.
Interesting to me is that the supposed "spirits" (or whatever) are so knowledgeable about all sorts of details of our lives, but often can't answer the simpliest of questions, like "What is your name?", "Has a relative of yours recently passed on?", or "Does your relative's name start with the letter 'B'?"
It would seem to me that if a prophet were truly in touch with The Almighty or His minions that he would be able to come up with ALL the pertinent details of one's life without being prompted in the slightest. But such is not the case in any of the supposed "prophesies" I've witnessed.
And, yes, I have been "prophesied" over once in the past. And it was a joke, IMHO...
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socks
Me neither.
Really? "Personal Prophecy" sounds like a trademark name, like a buzzword. Something about reading it looks and sounds cheesey to me.
Agabus was a prophet, and I guess he prophesied in that he confirmed something previous and foretold Paul's imprisonment (although as far as the Romans went that wasn't a reach to say that was going to happen and the Christian church in Jerusalem under James had their own agenda, another problem entirely for Paul).
But calling it Personal Prophesy sounds like making it in to a franchise. It was prophecy and it was personal for Paul. Okay.
Not by that title or name, although I can think of various instances where the conditions generally fit what you're saying CES teachs P.P. is. There was never a lack of people who had the time and inclination to dispense their invaluable wisdom and guidance that's for sure.
Hmmmmm...I can't think of anywhere. I bet CES teaches it though, right? Where do they get the concept from, any idea?
I think you're/they're defining what some Christians would call a normal relationship with God and fellow Christians and calling it a new name, P.P. I would personally avoid any formally arranged method of giving or receiving spiritual (?) advice, information or direction by anyone especially a group. I'm sure they teach it's great blessing, blah blah blah. It sounds like a bad idea because.....
The next thing you know you've got Councils to examine, test and ratify or nullify Personal Prophecies. From my vantage point, it sounds very weird.
Do they were robes and pointed hats? I think if I were asked to be on a P.P. Council, I'd want a special hat. Seriously. Some kind of headwear would be necessary to get me in the proper mood for P.P. Councilling.
I hope I've helped. If all goes well I expect to never have any experience of any kind with any sort of CES P.P.
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excathedra
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wingnut
Looked into this once and even talked to JAL about it. Now the freaky thing to me is he opened with the opposite of you have to know the genuine to know the counterfeit. Oh really, when one lacks good solid logic to back up his practice then its alright to come out saying will this is what the devil does and so he had to rip God off to do it, therefore this is the right thing to do!
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socks
I just came back and checked my post and lo, Sharon, you've posted a really cool piece of information!
They say " IT - is the Point. The Point of Contact Between You and all that is."
I'm scared now. I like to keep just a little distance between myself and all that is. Not a lot, nothing like a car length for every year or anything, just a little bit. If that point is only 2 letters wide, I hope everyone's showered.
Not to derail, maybe William Smalley and CES can get together...? Proabably not. I bet his doctrines are off uh, somewhere. Yeah. That's always a problem.
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socks
Jimmy! Ring the bell! We got our first congregant!!!
We got yer pointed socks, oh yeah.
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Nomad888
I knew someone who claimed to be a psychic, and he would claim to "read" people's minds. From what I witnessed of this guy, he had an accuracy of about 60% where his victi... er, subject would say he was dead on.
After observing this guy for a few weeks, I came to the conclusion that he was simply an expert at reading people's body language. I say this because the 40 or so percent of the time he was wrong, he could not see the person he was "reading" very well, nor did he know them personally. The ones he read accurately he could see their mannerisms, and he already knew some things about them from associates or friends.
This "personal prophesy" thing is (IMHO) crap. It is just a new name for an old trick (or as George put it, "...a joke...").
My 2 cents...
Nomad888
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ex10
Clearwater,
You asked some totally legitimate questions. Unfortunately, I don't have any answers, just more questions.
Prophesy is a pretty broad subject, and I'm pretty sure hardly anybody knows what the heck they are talking about, christian or not.
This I can say, I have pretty much tossed out what TWI taught about it. I mean as far as "manifestations" go, and all the doublespeak about what it can and cannot be.
I tend to agree with my bro, socks, that any effort to institutionalize it, put it in a box, wrap it up, make it look all pretty, and leave it.......is suspect.
:D-->
On the other hand, prophecy is a legitimate "gift" in the church. I am a Christian who believes that God speaks through people sometimes.
Are those that speak words of prophecy more "important' than anybody else? What are the preliminary requirements of one who speaks? I would think that a personal agenda would be out of the question.....no?
I'm not so sure about the whole subject. Seems to me that most of the instances of "prophecy" to an individual in the bible, were not for public consumption, or open to public debate.
:D-->
And yes, accountability is an issue.
So, I guess I have the same questions that you do. I know I didn't help any.
I have experience inside and outside of TWI and CES, with the whole thing. And no, I'm not gonna share here. My perogative.
:)-->
Private topic me if you want.
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dmiller
I hadn't seen JAL for about 10 years, when that happened, and that was 10 years ago. He had no clue as to what I as up to, or what I had been doing. He knows me from the way of Indiana, back in the 70's.
Shoot -- I was going to be in town to pick for a dance, and this was just something I went to because I was invited. And fyi -- I would never go to a meeting, just because *personal prophecy* might be the headliner *act*, and I would certainly leave the checkbook at home!
;)-->
I agree. Seems to degrade prophecy a bit, eh?
I paid nuthin then, and never would -- not now or ever.
:D-->
I do that too, especially when driving. When I pull up to a red light, I make sure I can see the bumper of the car in front of me, in case I need to get outta there. I do the same with *religious* groups.
;)-->
That there is okayyy with me if you think so.
:)--> (Opinions are .... 
) 
In case anyone missed it, JAL said nothing other than what I said earlier, and it was Greg who gave the prophecy, not JAL. If you think it is a *crock*, then so be it. Sure -- the guy coulda been a psychic, or whatever. And it was not a *feel good* thing that happened, it made me think about my life's choice's ahead of me -- and that to me is a good thing.
No worse than an investment guy telling you where to put your money, to earn the greater return. No worse than a counselor telling you what needs to be done to quit an addiction, or how to get your marriage back on track.
If you don't like the Bible, or even believe in God's Word -- then you have every right to be skeptical, and I won't question it. And if you don't like a certain group's *usage thereof*, I won't question that either.
I had that *personal prophecy* happen to me once, about 10 years ago, and have never sought a similar *experience* since. The one and only time I experienced it, I was impressed that this was a viable entity for life and direction, and it happened via someone who was not involved with CES.
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jimdoop
Steve Heefner and myself and a couple of other men thatwere out of our work in the Haught Ashbeary and were leaders in twi, went to a meeting of ces, out of our love for jal. They got into the prophecy part of the program and they single out one of our party, and what I heard the barbra strizan (B.S.) laid on my friend was laughfable. He knew who he was in Christ and his minestry. I got that sigh, that God has alwas given me for 40 years, when a counterfet is near me. Believe me I have had that manifestation many times through the years. Long before I met vic. I left my friends and made a dash for the door, while jals sister was yelling stop that man. No one tryed I would have decked them. I knew at that moment, that the devil had taken over that orgination. John John and mark or whatever thier are names that stoled jals work. That whole top brass of ces is courrup. They forgot to rightly divide (r/d) the word. What happens when you forget to r/d the word? You move from Grace to the law, so did v.p. Thats when my heart broke. When he broke his word to me. When he changed the palf class.
Sorry thats all I can do now, but believe me there is much more, but I find myself sad now. Love every one of you.
Serving Him jim
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ex10
So, Jim Doop, is this prophecy? That the devil has taken over CES?
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socks
ex10, my bro-ess.
:)--> You nailed the hit right on the head. Personal Prophesy ®
"institutionalize" is the word I was searching for. One of the meanings:
to accustom (a person) so firmly to the care and supervised routine of an institution as to make incapable of managing a life outside.
I don't think we're going to find every single thing in the bible epistles or Acts to tell us exactly how we should do everything. What I believe we see to a great extent is what happened to those people at that time. The bigger picture is what we want to stay focused on so that we will see what will happen to us at this time.
Granted some things we can know from the bible as to what to do and what to expect. It's just that it's possible to ritualize anything and in effect put the breaks on whatever it was that we originally learned or experienced by wrapping our expectations around that single event and point in time. People want technique and stylized repetition to give them the confidence they seek.
I think that leads to fooling ourselves when we don't see things repeat the way we expect them to. "I did everything the same way, I did all the right stuff. Why doesn't it work the same way this time?" So we have to make excuses and add new pieces to an ever expanding set of procedures and ignore or condemn others for whom things "work" differently and all so that it will make sense to us and we can rest easy in a well ordered universe, run by the Hand of God ®
My 'pinion ®
Just saw Jim's post. Won't get in the middle of that.
-->
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ex10
yeah, socks, I getcha.
Ya know, if something is "personal" then it ain't "impersonal." Call me simplistic. But I understand English.
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shazdancer
I can think of one instance in TWI where "personal prophecy" was used: the laying on of hands and prophecy spoken over a couple at their wedding ceremony. But this CES version has such a "I know something about you that you don't know" flavor to it.
Like depending on a psychic, or horoscope. Save your money, and learn to make your own decisions.
Regards,
Shaz
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mj412
CES was founded and is built on "friendships" with that line of who is who of course. So naturly this works for its followers they are so into what the other guy may think or do and pleasing one another and making it happen for one another, mostly the leaders.
PP is a get together, feel good, God loves us more thing . The emotionalism of God speaking to you for another, is just one step further into trust me, just trust me, God speaks through us. WE are special and have the power. YOU need us to make God really happy. WE can do it right and if you listen so can YOU maybe someday. I remeber the practice sesions for the intermediate class when only they knew if you were doing it right or not. alot of power is given to the leaders in these practice sessions to manipulate and train another to seek them as the ones in the know for God. To be able to succeed in this again "inner circle " of knowing more and better than the rest cements loyalty and obedience.
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Clearwater
I agree that true prophecy or a personal prophecy should be right 100% of the time if it from the true God. What I don't understand is how anyone can say that it doesn't have to be right 100% of the time or anyone can say anything and if they are wrong so what. This goes back to no accountability.
Maybe one of the people at CES, Jeff USAF RET or anyone else who I see in the cafe on occassion connected with CES can answer the question about why CES thinks the scriptures allow for a prophectic council. And doesn't a prophetic council isolate one from personal responsibility for a prophecy that is wrong?
The term prophetic council makes a person think that a bunch of people sit around and discuss another/different prophecy and determine its merits. If this is the practice, where is it in the scriptures? Where is there an example in the scripture where this practice happened?
Did not all of the Old Testament prophets take action when told by God and there wasn't any prophectic council. The "council" was from God and what God said happened. What scriptures does the Way or CES use to allow for the practice of having a prophetic council? Where is the accountability???
I think I have the answer. I believe if you make one prophecy that does not come to pass you are not a prophet and fall into the category of being false prophet. If this is not the case, how would anyone ever know what prophecy is from God and what is not? If you have a different viewpoint on this please join the discussion.
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Galen
Clearwater:
"I agree that true prophecy or a personal prophecy should be right 100% of the time if it from the true God."
My understanding is that any true prophecy from Our Heavenly Father must be 100% true.
It is also my understanding that we are each to stand and judge what doctrines and prophecys each other says.
1 Corinthians 6:1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1 Corinthians 10:14Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 14:29
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
So if prophets each speak, and everyone else judges what has been said, isn't the purpose of that judging to pay strict attention and determine if it is 100% true?
:-)
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Ham
Galen, good stuff- but in a way, that gives me a few more questions than I had before. Maybe that's a good thing.. but, what is the context of this grouping of "prophets"? Is this just a little "twig" meeting somewhere out in the middle of nowhere at some disciples house? Or is it a much larger gathering?
Obviously there are more than five prophets present- three speak, "others" judge. Not impossible I suppose, but to me it would be out of the ordinary to have five prophets running amok in a little local fellowship somewhere..
Plus- I've been thinking about some of the instructions we got about prophecy. Here its not "if any man should speak" like with tongues and interpretation- here they are specifically named, "prophets".
I remember ole doc's instructions, that this is "the best guidance" we have for operation of "the regular" manifestation of prophecy- I kind of question this now though.
Just some thoughts- any answers?
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sharon
prophecyclub.com
Ok guys for the lowlow price of a $1000.00 a month (yep 12,000.00 per year) u can be a platinum memener(more time at table I suppose)
w/this comes
Platinum Partaker: $1000 or more per month
Free subscription to The Crusader magazine
Free copies of ALL new product releases
Free admission for you and a guest to all Prophecy Club events
Membership in the Prophecy Circle: Entitiles you to special Prophecy Circle events and publications
Now you can here me laughing....
I am in the WRONG buisness do the math 24,000 members at Platium level=28,000,000.00 yep double checked it
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