No one knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman, except for that man or that woman. I will go further on to say that God Almighty also knows what is in the heart of that man or that woman. Some, as in the case of Mister P-Mosh (spelled your name right bruh), do not believe in God, but my point here is this:
Thanks for spelling it right this time. :)-->
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
Who really knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman? Do you or I know what was in Terri Schiavo's heart as she was slowly starved to death? Do You Mr P-Mosh? Do you really know? The answer to this is a resounding NO. None of us know! Only that person, or God (if you believe in Him) knows.
If anyone knows what her wishes would be, it would be the husband. I can only draw upon my own experiences and the observations I've made, but as far as I can tell Michael Schiavo was dedicated to his wife, and did all that he could to try to heal her until the point that the doctors told him that Terri's brain was gone. In a situation like that, I'd probably do the same. Him falling in love with another woman happened after he had made the decision that Terri's body should not be artificially kept alive anymore, and the reason it has dragged on for so many years is because of the court cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
Therefore, how is it that we as a People have the gall to sit back and judge that, "well, she's done. It's been fifteen years, shoot, get it over with. Just quit feedin' her. That way she'll be out of her misery, and her husband can now get along with his new and comparatively vibrant wife.
The problem is that medically speaking, there was no hope whatsoever of a recovery. Michael Schiavo got medical training and took her to experimental treatments to see what could be done, but at the point that her brain started to disintigrate, there was no hope.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
Haven't any of you folks who favor the pulling of her feeding tube read of those who have been in comas, and how they, after coming out of that coma, told of how they had recognized and known when their loved ones had been by their sides at the hospital bed, but were unable to communicate because of their condition?
That is night and day though, and I think that the ignorance of medicine on the part of the majority of people is probably why people like yourself were so opposed to this. There are different parts of the brain that control different functions. The part of the brain that was left in Terri Schiavo was the brain stem, which only controls things like your heartbeat, blinking, etc. It is not capable of consciousness or thought. We know this for a fact, there is no question in that any more than there is any question that the heart pumps blood. The MRIs showed that all that was left of her brain was the stem, and that the rest was replaced by fluid. You can not grow back a portion of your brain, although if it is a slight injury your brain has backups in different parts and you can recover by one of those backups being activated instead of the injured part. However, in massive brain loss like Terri Schiavo went through, there's no backups or anything that can happen for her to recover, and there is no way that any thoughts could occur.
I'm not a doctor, but I know about this stuff. I have studied it a lot and am somewhat knowledgeable, and I have good reasons to know about it rather than just a passing interest. The MRIs showed that her brain was gone, and her flat EEG pointed out that no thoughts were occurring.
quote:
Originally posted by Jonny Lingo:
And so, what was so incredibly WRONG with allowing this gal, Terri Schiavo, TO LIVE as long as she could draw breath? What was so evil about allowing her parents to take over her hospice care and releasing her husband to go off and tend to his common law "wife"?
If I were in his shoes, I would not turn my wife's body over to my in-laws so they could keep her body alive against her wishes. I may have different morals than you so our definitions of "life" may not match. However, I don't think that you would want your wife to suffer, we just have different definitions of suffering.
I really think that the folks who've taken a 'position' on Terri's demise, have done so with 'good intentions', little accurate information, and even less honest thought. I realize that what follows will not change everyone's position. I admit that I am lacking in skills of persuasion but perhaps my experiences with 'brain damage' will help a few understand some of the issues. I was ( still am) significantly brain damaged due to a stroke when I was age 21. It was caused by a blood clot. I was totally paralyzed on one side, and left with aphasia.
quote:
(definition From MedicineNet.com)
Aphasia: Literally aphasia means no speech. Aphasia can apply to a defect in expression or comprehension.
The prognosis following a stroke is related to the severity of the stroke and how much of the brain has been damaged. Some patients return to a near-normal condition with minimal awkwardness or speech defects. Many stroke patients are left with permanent problems such as hemiplegia (weakness on one side of the body), aphasia (difficulty or the inability to speak), or of the bowel and/or bladder. A significant number of persons become unconscious and die following a major stroke.
In my case, I could not speak nor could I understand language for a time. I still have difficulty speaking and hearing. To this day (more than 30 years later) an MRI shows that a significant portion of my brain is 'dead'. There are certain, specific mental tasks that I cannot do in spite of a higher than average IQ. Physically, besides the weakness on one side of my body, I also have a difficult time swallowing and have choked while drinking water to the point of fainting. (Swallowing is, I'm told, a common problem among stroke survivors) Losing brain cells is a far, far cry from a coma! The cells are dead - they no longer function. They are not 'asleep'. There is no function - no memory, no thought, no awareness - to the dead cells.
The best way I can relate the experience of "dead brain cells" is this - For many years, each time someone asked me a question that I'd not been asked before - I would pause, search my brain for my response, and often I would simply say, "I don't know." Because, if you can imagine, my brain had NO response, no answer... nothing - a huge empty cavern. This would happen no matter the type of question. "Would you like to meet for lunch this week?" "What year is this?" "What day is it today?" "Would you like to teach our Bible Study group about this topic you've studied?" "Why didn't you see that?" "Who is the President of the United States?".........the first time a person posed these exact questions to me, I had no answer. I 'drew' a total blank.
Answers to questions sometimes warranted a systematic analysis of facts known to me. I can not do that (it's a higher cognitive function). The questions that simply ask for facts became easy, once I discovered the answer - I retained it. (Some might call that "learning") To this day, I must use specific coping techniques to recognize when the situation calls for me using more coping techniques to respond to situations that require systematic analysis. (Writting is much easier for me, than speaking. And in this statement, I am using some of the coping techniques to relay my experiences. I do not claim or intend to persuade by means of logic or any 'system' of thought leading to a conclusion - except what seems to me to be obvious ......although, it is hard for me to 'stay on topic' because I do have a lot of emotional baggage hanging on to these memories).
Shortly after my injury, neurologists told my friends and family that I would NOT recover, that I would stay mute, non-responsive and paralyzed. (Just goes to show - doctors don't know everything). I have been able to relearn some cognitive skills - basically, I understand the process like this: Unaffected, healthy brain cells, somehow, accepted the electrical impulses that allow new skills - much the way a new baby 'learns' to associate certain stimuli to a corresponding function. A normal baby learns that she can respond to the feeling of fear, lack, danger, or hunger by crying. A normal baby learns that her fingers are attached - they can be seen, moved, and felt.......all of the truly basic things that humans learn. Some areas of my brain were affected by the stroke - some were not. Some functions were lost, some are retained. For example, the 'filters' that we humans develop in order to be social creatures were lost. Until I was re-taught that using the F-word is not acceptable in certain situations, I used it often, not comprehending the relationship between my actions and the responses of others. I had to re-learn publicly acceptable posture and conduct. Now, I am often confused so I stay quiet, and check to make sure my body is covered.
Neurological medicine has made huge progress, generally, since 1970. The therapies that are common and expected today, were not known or widely practiced then. My circumstances are such that, most therapy is not available to me. I was released from the hospital 12 months after being admitted to the ER. Afterwards, I struggled immensely with basic tasks of living for many years. But - it could have been worse. I am thankful to God for the healing I have realized.
So, you might assume that I would champion the cause for Terri to continue to be sustained artificially. I do not.
Without memory, there is no awareness of life. The possibility of being retrained to function as 'normal' is, in my experience an absurd myth. Yes, I function well, now. In fact, most people never find out that I am 'brain-damaged'. But - I KNOW what I used to be able to do, and will be frustrated for the rest of my life because I can not attain that level of ability. We live in a cruel world with mean people. I will need to use medications for the rest of my life. I struggle each and every day, with living in a limited vessel ( prison) and have daily asked my God why I wasn't spared from this continuous, lonely, life-long struggle.
But many more fundamental Life-questions determine what makes a life valuable. I don't have all those answers. I only know that helplessly living in a human body with absolutely no control is a horror that I don't wish on anyone. In fact, it seems to me, that anyone who would want to prolong Terri's existance, could not possibly want that for her sake. To be blunt, it seems quite selfish to want Terri's body to continue to exist.
First, congratulations on your rehab. I have had relatives who have had to undergo very long, arduous rehabiliation paths and realize, as much as anybody who has not done so personally, how difficult that is.
Can I tell you, though, I really don't want to talk about the Schindler/Schiavo case in specific anymore, particularly whether or not that she should have been euthanized or not. There was so much spin put on the case by both sides that I don't think I'd believe anything in regards to that case. One side said that they were using a morphine drip to depress the breathing function (on a woman that was being dehydrated); the other side was represented by a pro right-to-die lawyer who has written about having a spiritual experience with a comatose woman where she told him to "let me die." (lawyer=liar, right-to-die lawyer = lawyer with a religious/political agenda to lie for a higher cause). Frankly, even if the husband's side decided to authorize the release of all of his late wife's medical records, there would be a question about them, as there is sworn testimony indicating that the husband was observed pulling pages out of his wife's chart. (Not that this sworn testimony isn't perjured, but, there is the possibility that it is true...in which case, there is a question about its accuracy). I think truth was a victim in this case.
Now, having said this, I am curious about your views on a couple of things:
I can appreciate what you're saying that having a mind trapped in a body would be a living hell. Your first-hand experience adds a lot to that. I assume that you advocate euthanizing the patient in the Schindler/Schiavo case. What about your case? Should you have been euthanized rather than rehabilitated? (I'm genuinely asking this)
Assuming the answer to the above is no, at what point do you think society euthanize somebody? Suppose somebody can only be rehab'd partially? (Enough to go to the bathroom, transport themselves in a wheelchair, eat/drink soft foods, etc., or maybe not even that much)
Should such a person be euthanized quickly, immediately upon discovery of the damage, or should an effort to be made to rehabilitate them before deciding to put them to death? How many resources (time and money) should be expended in an effort to rehab them before killing them?
What about people who are born with disabilities (mentally handicapped, etc.)? Should they be euthanized too?
quote:
But - I KNOW what I used to be able to do, and will be frustrated for the rest of my life because I can not attain that level of ability. We live in a cruel world with mean people. I will need to use medications for the rest of my life. I struggle each and every day, with living in a limited vessel ( prison) and have daily asked my God why I wasn't spared from this continuous, lonely, life-long struggle.
I have met too many people in my travels around this life who do not share your opinion to believe that your opinion is universally true. But it is obviously your reality. And that makes it very valid. So I'm curious how you'd apply it. Thanks.
I think what I learned most from your post is the very fact it is NOT the same outcome or reality for anyone when serious injury or illness happens.
I have taught life skill in rehab to a few with disabilities and brain injuries. I had one who has stayed with me she was a star atheletic performer on her way to the state championships and went through a windshield from the back seat and hit a brick fence on the side of the road.
her memory capacity was about twenty minutes max. her rehab was three years in the hospital do to physical injuries on top of the brain injuries I worked with her one on one in a group home.
I will give you an example of how this girl lived, she would forget to finish her sandwhich if not prompted that she was eating lunch and then state she was hungry. A phone call from a friend or loved one would be forgoten as she hung up and traveled to her bedroom to get changed to go out, she would forget why she was in her room changing. she was and is a brillant beautiful young lady.
Her parents both ministers divorced over the truama and heartbreak of the accident they were not injured in the accident and dad point blank said he longer longer can have a relationship with his daughter or vist as she wouldnt remember him coming anyway. (she didnt) and he didnt know this girl with the cane his daughter was an athletic performer who was the top honor student in her class ..
here is the part I want you to read sounds not so bad Imean talk about living in the moment right? Well three months to the day EXACTLY she would remember the day ok? get that she could recall every single detail conversation what she wore what she did who she interacted with what kind of car she rode in.. three months to the day after the day...
the brain is a mystery. conversation where something i had to be trained in with her I told her where I lived one day thinking she will not remember by the time we get done with breakfast. she didnt . To the day three months later she showed up at my door step with her aid stating this is where I lived and she came to see me.
FREAKY huh? fliped me out it did. I loved her so , she wanted children and I said how are you going to have a child when you cant remember if you ate breakfast? But we rehab and with help she will be allowed to have a child if her inuries permit. she was sexualy active before the accident she is allowed privite vist with her boyfirend another brain injury person. differnt problems tho. If she was a virgin before the accident, she would have never been allowed sexual vists in her orders, (for life!!!0
she didnt understand sex she just knew her boyfriend liked it she never remembered it anyways.
on the days of recall I found myself depressed I would hear her tell exactly how bad somone treated her (it is easy to abuse somone who cant remember you were even in the room! a few momnets later) Her family couldnt handle her . she lived in a group home with other disabled people who spent little time with her because she was not disabled she was different. And she was not born disabled and often wondered why in heck she had to live with retarded people!!!! They didnt have to have constant supervision and thought she was a baby and spoiled about things in the house. TV forget about it no movies either what is the point by the time you get to a story line she forgot the first part. She was able to read but again it doesnt make sense when you get to page three because page one and two where gone...
if she felt independent and wandered away for ten minutes without me at her side YES bathroom included!!! she would forget where she was. Life was one big loop of Hi my name is *** Im your aid today,(although I lived with her for many months. she never had a clue who the hell was talking to her. it just didnt matter anyway.
On the day of recall three months I walked in to see her and she said Hi Insert my real name) I about passed out, I said you know me huh ? she giggled and said yeah today I do.. but she would ONLY remember the day from three months previous nothing before or after. what a brillant woman she was. I miss her .
my point , Ttessa with all you can do you can understand , you know how difficult this process of recovery is. My girl was at maximum recovery they said she would get "any better". You can reach these folks and help alot I bet if you desire..just an idea.
As far as terry case I just have seen it over and over Other people UNABLE to cope with another injury or illness and the mass changes it brings everyone involved so they think they KNOW what would best. they often do not . and in terrys case she didnt have directives he decided and Im angry he could determine whether she should DIE. she didnt die from her stroke she died of his hand and choice to withhold food and water, I do not think anyone has that right other than the individual of sound mind and body. if their is a question then allow life. if the person has decided what is best for them then so be it...
it is their Choice.
Working with this young lady is the only way I was able to let go of the anger I had in my life.. she ended up healing me. It is easy to say let it go and not be bitter BUT not so easy when you have been hurt. it is easy to say today is a new day lets be glad but not so easy to DO , with her I learned how to live in the moment really lol (oh we had some fun) and be thankful for what I got right in front of me!!! because she had to live like that I learned the joy of letting go of alot of deressing thoughts and attitudes about what we think is important. I may have been paid a salary to help her live her life but she is the one who really changed my own for the better.
I guess I can relate to terrys parents, ya know, sometimes we do not recognize how valuable someone is untill we realize how much we change just for the loving of them. to me it is enough in life and always will be. it is the reason I want to live every single day.
After that, I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. Maybe you should try less insults next time.
Well I for one did read the rest of Ttssa's post and found it quite loving and truthful. Here is a woman giving us a birdseye view into the challenges of her life the past 30 years. Honestly sharing with us the frustration she has had to live with and incorporate into her everyday activities.
When we are asked a question an answer is immediately on the tip of our tongue, but with this woman it requires a deliberate, conscious effort on her part to even get the process of thinking involved.
I can only imagine what it must be like in social situations for her. She remians quiet because she is not sure of how to respond. Afraid to say anything because what may come out of her mouth is not appropriate for the situation.
She deserves better than being scolded for appearing to be insulting. You may understand her insulting comment in a different context if you read the entire post. If you had to think about everything prior to saying it, not sure if it is appropriate, you may come to a different conclusion than you have so far.
Even if she did mean it to be insulting, after reading her post and seeing her point of view, she is justly entitled to her opinion.
dearest dear sunesis, i love and respect you so much
i don't think ttssa was being insulting, i really don't
when you previously said, "well, if you don't "get it" now you never will. If it doesn't bother you in the least, somewhere, way deep down, you have no conscience," i felt very very sad and confused. but then i figured you didn't mean it quite the way it sounded.....
**
Ttssa, thank you for your post. i have no words to tell you how much i think of you....
That was a great post and I am glad that I read every word. It was well thought out and worded while showing a lot of heart. In spite of your perceived lack of brain function you do communicate well by the written word, better than most people here I might add, and this is something to be thankful for. I wish you well in all your endeavors and thank you for being so courageous in your hardships. You are an inspiration to us all.
I read every word of Ttessa's post as well, and was very impressed.
Too much has already been said about "Terrie's case", so I will say no more about that.
quote:
The possibility of being retrained to function as 'normal' is, in my experience an absurd myth. Yes, I function well, now. In fact, most people never find out that I am 'brain-damaged'. But - I KNOW what I used to be able to do, and will be frustrated for the rest of my life because I can not attain that level of ability. We live in a cruel world with mean people. I will need to use medications for the rest of my life. I struggle each and every day, with living in a limited vessel ( prison) and have daily asked my God why I wasn't spared from this continuous, lonely, life-long struggle.
Right now I am thinking about Clark (one of my clients at the group home), who takes over 30 pills a day (7 different med times daily), for his advanced Parkinson's, and schizophrenia, and for his mild mental retardation.
Granted -- he is not a brain injured person, but he had capabilities several years ago that he no longer has now. He used to walk fine. Now he uses a walker, or (in public) a chair that we push. Sometimes his body movements are so big, they overturn the easy-chair he sits in. He shakes so badly, that at meal time we have to spoon feed him.
He is 58, and once was a tall, and (very!) strong man, but now his body is becoming a shell of what it once was. He loves van rides, and rock and roll music, with the windows down, as we motor along cruising through his old neighborhood, or hitting the freeway for some speed, and distance.
Upshot of it is -- he loves life, regardless of what he is now. Yes -- at times he is frustrated by what he cannot control, but that is why I and the other staff are there for -- to let him know he is not to be blamed for it. And to let him know we are there to help him do what he wants.
Everyone has their opinions here, and may I say I respect them all. I really do. I see folks in situations that others might say, "why bother", but I see the same situation, and say "let's go for it!"
Guess I should have said that early on. Mighta been a more concise statement as to what I meant.
"God bless us. God bless us all, each and everyone." Tiny Tim
Damn, I lost my reply and it was so good too I'll try to remember what I wrote.
Lets see I was praising Ttessa for her post.
I was telling her that my Doctor had me tested for Altzheimers and the sheer terror I felt for 2 weeks til the test and the releif I felt finding out that I didn't have it. What I do have is short term memory loss which is very embarassing and how much I love whitedove, Steve and Paw for helping me over and over to do things on my putor and I keep forgetting, especially in trying to post picture's (I still can't remember how), and then posting them for me. Thanks alot guys. LOVE YA, DOVEY.
I originally heard aboutTerri Sheivo at least two years ago. A friend who emails me often and who also sent many emails regarding his desire to see Roe vs Wade overturned, was the first one to tie this Sheivo matter to abortion. He is my friend but we don't agree on every issue that we've discussed. I don't understand (I can't relate by imagining) many points on either of these issues. Which makes me think that I'm not alone in not understanding some of the arguements. So, at what point do I, Ttessa, decide to allow my 'feelings' (intuition) to color my final opinion? That's always a hard question and I instinctively lean to the 'rational thought' side rather than the 'emotional'. For some reason I suppose it's 'smarter' to suppress the feelings & emotion. But the feelings and emotions are there for some reason. So, maybe it's not so 'smart' to squash them.
Mark, Thank you for your comments. I agree that "truth was a victim in this case." I don't have enough information about Terri Schiavo to say that I "advocate" permitting her death. I don't think any of us who must rely on the media reports can possibly be confident about which pertinent facts we believe. If Terri was only functioning with her brain stem, If Terri actually could not swallow on her own ability, if, if if........ There are a lot of factors that that I would consider if I were to systematically analyze the issue. But honestly, I've just spent about 45 minutes writting the last two sentences (trying to find the right words to express what my thoughts are). I grasp at facts and they dissappear ......it's kind of like trying to grab mercury. I don't know. I'm just glad it wasn't me who had to make that decision.
Should I have been euthanized rather than rehabilitated? Um, my understanding of the concept of 'euthanasia' is that the act is a purposeful, intentional act to end the life of a living person, although motivated by mercy for their circumstances. That wasn't an issue with me. I was never on life support of any kind.
I am not opposed to the concept of euthanasia, but think every person merits individual consideration. For those of us who have the ability to make a Living Will - I think we should. And we should make a legal statement about how we wish our dead bodies to be treated. Autopsy or not? Burial or creamation? I do not like the idea of 'policy' or 'law' deciding those issues for myself.
My opinions about my own circumstance are complicated; they're affected by many many experiences, both good and bad. Overall, I am proud of my accomplishments and grateful that my circumstances are mine. I deal with what I've been given. I've experienced hardships that very few can understand. So, as I wrote my post a wide variety of feelings surfaced. I know of no one who shares my exact circumstances, so whether my "opinion is universally true" or not doesn't figure into my purpose for relating my thoughts and feelings.
Some of the posters on this forum are really complete in their writtings and I marvel at their ability. I appreciate the effectiveness of presenting one's opinion in such a manner. I am and have been frustrated at the limitations I experience. Truth is, I don't know if "complete expression" is a learned ability or a cognitive function. Either way - I had to think long & hard about whether or not to post anything at all. On that Ben Franklin T technique - the Don't side had a lot more reasons than the Do side. The Do side said - You have a unique perspective, a gift, you should share it for the benefit of someone who might be comforted by a your perspective. I wasn't sure than anyone would read my post. I am surprised at the responses to it - both in variety and number. But I hope you will try to understand that I'm not willing to get into any more specifics than I've already revealed in this public forum. My email address is available for anyone who wants it. Thank you to all of you who posted supportive comments. They lightened my heart. MJ412 - yep, I've often offered my perspectives and experiences to motivate others who can benefit from my help. I am active in Brain Injury Support groups locally, and always try to inspire hope.
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that everybody should be able to direct their own health care, or desire to not receive such health care.
The reason I ask about policy here is primarily for the case that there are no relatives to act on behalf of the individual, especially if the individual has not expressed his or her wishes in writing. When the state is responsible to make decisions for an incapacitated individual, what guidelines should the state follow? But, in addition to that case, are there any limits that should be followed by a person's representatives, if that person hasn't expressed his or her wishes earlier in writing? Should a representative be able to say, "I know Ttessa wouldn't want to live like this, so go ahead and give her a Versed/Potassium shot now, so she won't have to suffer through this?" (btw, Versed is a major tranquilizer and potassium will stop the heart) That's where the policy comes into play: if the individual hasn't written down his or her wishes, what are the limits within which others may act on the individual's behalf?
But, again, congratulations on your rehab. I know enough folk with disabilities, including stroke victims, to at least appreciate the challenges that you've had to deal with and continue to have to deal with.
Emotions and the ability to reason comes from our thoughts.
Our thoughts come from our brain. when damaged due to illness or accident it is reasonable to admit that these areas of thought are also "changed" in some manner.
This may mean point blank personality changes, such as a very logical person becoming very uncertain or a very happy go lucky kind of guy or girl may now be very serious etc. How recovery and its trouble and success also plays into ones emotions so the degrees and outcomes are never certain or able to be calculated.
Yet folks are seldom told this by dr. much less family members are family member made aware of the fact. The reason is no one wants to predict an outcome in a less than favorable light or even guess what may happens to ones "personality" when these things happen. I have a sister who had a stroke in her fifties, her own children admit her personality has changed to a huge degree, it may be the stress of recovery but more important it is also the brain is not the same and she thinks differntly and feels emotions differently. she has no patience for her grandchildren now , and a number of other rather radical concerns have come up. To look and have a conversation with my sister YOU would never know she had a stroke, yet we all notice that she is not the same as she was in many ways..
emotional consideration are complex but in injury or illness the brain will and does compensate in fantastic ways but not often without a cost to who the individual may have been in thoughts and abilty to display and handle emotional contents previous to the problem.
the ignorance of loved ones and the hesitation from the medical community to educate these families compound the situations and complex decisions that have to be made after such situations. Maybe before the accident you knew this person to be sure to feel a certain way about a manner YET now they have done a 180 and you may not realize why, it is part of the injury and the process the brain takes to repair itself and I personaly believe a person own will to live within who they are now (we are what we think) . Does a family have a right to decide from a persons past life before injury that is how they must feel now? People are allowed to change and in these types of cases are forced to change who they are. Who is a family memeber husband or not to say it must not be good enough ?
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good one, karmie
yeah he can't get sucked in to wasting time on the internet so he just tells me what to say and i waste my time for him
(i'm sure this was the only thread he read since he was redeeming his time because the days are evil)
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Mister P-Mosh
Thanks for spelling it right this time.
:)-->
If anyone knows what her wishes would be, it would be the husband. I can only draw upon my own experiences and the observations I've made, but as far as I can tell Michael Schiavo was dedicated to his wife, and did all that he could to try to heal her until the point that the doctors told him that Terri's brain was gone. In a situation like that, I'd probably do the same. Him falling in love with another woman happened after he had made the decision that Terri's body should not be artificially kept alive anymore, and the reason it has dragged on for so many years is because of the court cases.
The problem is that medically speaking, there was no hope whatsoever of a recovery. Michael Schiavo got medical training and took her to experimental treatments to see what could be done, but at the point that her brain started to disintigrate, there was no hope.
That is night and day though, and I think that the ignorance of medicine on the part of the majority of people is probably why people like yourself were so opposed to this. There are different parts of the brain that control different functions. The part of the brain that was left in Terri Schiavo was the brain stem, which only controls things like your heartbeat, blinking, etc. It is not capable of consciousness or thought. We know this for a fact, there is no question in that any more than there is any question that the heart pumps blood. The MRIs showed that all that was left of her brain was the stem, and that the rest was replaced by fluid. You can not grow back a portion of your brain, although if it is a slight injury your brain has backups in different parts and you can recover by one of those backups being activated instead of the injured part. However, in massive brain loss like Terri Schiavo went through, there's no backups or anything that can happen for her to recover, and there is no way that any thoughts could occur.
I'm not a doctor, but I know about this stuff. I have studied it a lot and am somewhat knowledgeable, and I have good reasons to know about it rather than just a passing interest. The MRIs showed that her brain was gone, and her flat EEG pointed out that no thoughts were occurring.
If I were in his shoes, I would not turn my wife's body over to my in-laws so they could keep her body alive against her wishes. I may have different morals than you so our definitions of "life" may not match. However, I don't think that you would want your wife to suffer, we just have different definitions of suffering.
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Ttessa
I really think that the folks who've taken a 'position' on Terri's demise, have done so with 'good intentions', little accurate information, and even less honest thought. I realize that what follows will not change everyone's position. I admit that I am lacking in skills of persuasion but perhaps my experiences with 'brain damage' will help a few understand some of the issues. I was ( still am) significantly brain damaged due to a stroke when I was age 21. It was caused by a blood clot. I was totally paralyzed on one side, and left with aphasia.
In my case, I could not speak nor could I understand language for a time. I still have difficulty speaking and hearing. To this day (more than 30 years later) an MRI shows that a significant portion of my brain is 'dead'. There are certain, specific mental tasks that I cannot do in spite of a higher than average IQ. Physically, besides the weakness on one side of my body, I also have a difficult time swallowing and have choked while drinking water to the point of fainting. (Swallowing is, I'm told, a common problem among stroke survivors) Losing brain cells is a far, far cry from a coma! The cells are dead - they no longer function. They are not 'asleep'. There is no function - no memory, no thought, no awareness - to the dead cells.
The best way I can relate the experience of "dead brain cells" is this - For many years, each time someone asked me a question that I'd not been asked before - I would pause, search my brain for my response, and often I would simply say, "I don't know." Because, if you can imagine, my brain had NO response, no answer... nothing - a huge empty cavern. This would happen no matter the type of question. "Would you like to meet for lunch this week?" "What year is this?" "What day is it today?" "Would you like to teach our Bible Study group about this topic you've studied?" "Why didn't you see that?" "Who is the President of the United States?".........the first time a person posed these exact questions to me, I had no answer. I 'drew' a total blank.
Answers to questions sometimes warranted a systematic analysis of facts known to me. I can not do that (it's a higher cognitive function). The questions that simply ask for facts became easy, once I discovered the answer - I retained it. (Some might call that "learning") To this day, I must use specific coping techniques to recognize when the situation calls for me using more coping techniques to respond to situations that require systematic analysis. (Writting is much easier for me, than speaking. And in this statement, I am using some of the coping techniques to relay my experiences. I do not claim or intend to persuade by means of logic or any 'system' of thought leading to a conclusion - except what seems to me to be obvious ......although, it is hard for me to 'stay on topic' because I do have a lot of emotional baggage hanging on to these memories).
Shortly after my injury, neurologists told my friends and family that I would NOT recover, that I would stay mute, non-responsive and paralyzed. (Just goes to show - doctors don't know everything). I have been able to relearn some cognitive skills - basically, I understand the process like this: Unaffected, healthy brain cells, somehow, accepted the electrical impulses that allow new skills - much the way a new baby 'learns' to associate certain stimuli to a corresponding function. A normal baby learns that she can respond to the feeling of fear, lack, danger, or hunger by crying. A normal baby learns that her fingers are attached - they can be seen, moved, and felt.......all of the truly basic things that humans learn. Some areas of my brain were affected by the stroke - some were not. Some functions were lost, some are retained. For example, the 'filters' that we humans develop in order to be social creatures were lost. Until I was re-taught that using the F-word is not acceptable in certain situations, I used it often, not comprehending the relationship between my actions and the responses of others. I had to re-learn publicly acceptable posture and conduct. Now, I am often confused so I stay quiet, and check to make sure my body is covered.
Neurological medicine has made huge progress, generally, since 1970. The therapies that are common and expected today, were not known or widely practiced then. My circumstances are such that, most therapy is not available to me. I was released from the hospital 12 months after being admitted to the ER. Afterwards, I struggled immensely with basic tasks of living for many years. But - it could have been worse. I am thankful to God for the healing I have realized.
So, you might assume that I would champion the cause for Terri to continue to be sustained artificially. I do not.
Without memory, there is no awareness of life. The possibility of being retrained to function as 'normal' is, in my experience an absurd myth. Yes, I function well, now. In fact, most people never find out that I am 'brain-damaged'. But - I KNOW what I used to be able to do, and will be frustrated for the rest of my life because I can not attain that level of ability. We live in a cruel world with mean people. I will need to use medications for the rest of my life. I struggle each and every day, with living in a limited vessel ( prison) and have daily asked my God why I wasn't spared from this continuous, lonely, life-long struggle.
But many more fundamental Life-questions determine what makes a life valuable. I don't have all those answers. I only know that helplessly living in a human body with absolutely no control is a horror that I don't wish on anyone. In fact, it seems to me, that anyone who would want to prolong Terri's existance, could not possibly want that for her sake. To be blunt, it seems quite selfish to want Terri's body to continue to exist.
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markomalley
TTessa:
First, congratulations on your rehab. I have had relatives who have had to undergo very long, arduous rehabiliation paths and realize, as much as anybody who has not done so personally, how difficult that is.
Can I tell you, though, I really don't want to talk about the Schindler/Schiavo case in specific anymore, particularly whether or not that she should have been euthanized or not. There was so much spin put on the case by both sides that I don't think I'd believe anything in regards to that case. One side said that they were using a morphine drip to depress the breathing function (on a woman that was being dehydrated); the other side was represented by a pro right-to-die lawyer who has written about having a spiritual experience with a comatose woman where she told him to "let me die." (lawyer=liar, right-to-die lawyer = lawyer with a religious/political agenda to lie for a higher cause). Frankly, even if the husband's side decided to authorize the release of all of his late wife's medical records, there would be a question about them, as there is sworn testimony indicating that the husband was observed pulling pages out of his wife's chart. (Not that this sworn testimony isn't perjured, but, there is the possibility that it is true...in which case, there is a question about its accuracy). I think truth was a victim in this case.
Now, having said this, I am curious about your views on a couple of things:
I can appreciate what you're saying that having a mind trapped in a body would be a living hell. Your first-hand experience adds a lot to that. I assume that you advocate euthanizing the patient in the Schindler/Schiavo case. What about your case? Should you have been euthanized rather than rehabilitated? (I'm genuinely asking this)
Assuming the answer to the above is no, at what point do you think society euthanize somebody? Suppose somebody can only be rehab'd partially? (Enough to go to the bathroom, transport themselves in a wheelchair, eat/drink soft foods, etc., or maybe not even that much)
Should such a person be euthanized quickly, immediately upon discovery of the damage, or should an effort to be made to rehabilitate them before deciding to put them to death? How many resources (time and money) should be expended in an effort to rehab them before killing them?
What about people who are born with disabilities (mentally handicapped, etc.)? Should they be euthanized too?
I have met too many people in my travels around this life who do not share your opinion to believe that your opinion is universally true. But it is obviously your reality. And that makes it very valid. So I'm curious how you'd apply it. Thanks.
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Sunesis
After that, I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. Maybe you should try less insults next time.
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karmicdebt
your loss...
I don't think Ttessa was being antagonistic...
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mj412
I thank you for sharing Ttessa.
I think what I learned most from your post is the very fact it is NOT the same outcome or reality for anyone when serious injury or illness happens.
I have taught life skill in rehab to a few with disabilities and brain injuries. I had one who has stayed with me she was a star atheletic performer on her way to the state championships and went through a windshield from the back seat and hit a brick fence on the side of the road.
her memory capacity was about twenty minutes max. her rehab was three years in the hospital do to physical injuries on top of the brain injuries I worked with her one on one in a group home.
I will give you an example of how this girl lived, she would forget to finish her sandwhich if not prompted that she was eating lunch and then state she was hungry. A phone call from a friend or loved one would be forgoten as she hung up and traveled to her bedroom to get changed to go out, she would forget why she was in her room changing. she was and is a brillant beautiful young lady.
Her parents both ministers divorced over the truama and heartbreak of the accident they were not injured in the accident and dad point blank said he longer longer can have a relationship with his daughter or vist as she wouldnt remember him coming anyway. (she didnt) and he didnt know this girl with the cane his daughter was an athletic performer who was the top honor student in her class ..
here is the part I want you to read sounds not so bad Imean talk about living in the moment right? Well three months to the day EXACTLY she would remember the day ok? get that she could recall every single detail conversation what she wore what she did who she interacted with what kind of car she rode in.. three months to the day after the day...
the brain is a mystery. conversation where something i had to be trained in with her I told her where I lived one day thinking she will not remember by the time we get done with breakfast. she didnt . To the day three months later she showed up at my door step with her aid stating this is where I lived and she came to see me.
FREAKY huh? fliped me out it did. I loved her so , she wanted children and I said how are you going to have a child when you cant remember if you ate breakfast? But we rehab and with help she will be allowed to have a child if her inuries permit. she was sexualy active before the accident she is allowed privite vist with her boyfirend another brain injury person. differnt problems tho. If she was a virgin before the accident, she would have never been allowed sexual vists in her orders, (for life!!!0
she didnt understand sex she just knew her boyfriend liked it she never remembered it anyways.
on the days of recall I found myself depressed I would hear her tell exactly how bad somone treated her (it is easy to abuse somone who cant remember you were even in the room! a few momnets later) Her family couldnt handle her . she lived in a group home with other disabled people who spent little time with her because she was not disabled she was different. And she was not born disabled and often wondered why in heck she had to live with retarded people!!!! They didnt have to have constant supervision and thought she was a baby and spoiled about things in the house. TV forget about it no movies either what is the point by the time you get to a story line she forgot the first part. She was able to read but again it doesnt make sense when you get to page three because page one and two where gone...
if she felt independent and wandered away for ten minutes without me at her side YES bathroom included!!! she would forget where she was. Life was one big loop of Hi my name is *** Im your aid today,(although I lived with her for many months. she never had a clue who the hell was talking to her. it just didnt matter anyway.
On the day of recall three months I walked in to see her and she said Hi Insert my real name) I about passed out, I said you know me huh ? she giggled and said yeah today I do.. but she would ONLY remember the day from three months previous nothing before or after. what a brillant woman she was. I miss her .
my point , Ttessa with all you can do you can understand , you know how difficult this process of recovery is. My girl was at maximum recovery they said she would get "any better". You can reach these folks and help alot I bet if you desire..just an idea.
As far as terry case I just have seen it over and over Other people UNABLE to cope with another injury or illness and the mass changes it brings everyone involved so they think they KNOW what would best. they often do not . and in terrys case she didnt have directives he decided and Im angry he could determine whether she should DIE. she didnt die from her stroke she died of his hand and choice to withhold food and water, I do not think anyone has that right other than the individual of sound mind and body. if their is a question then allow life. if the person has decided what is best for them then so be it...
it is their Choice.
Working with this young lady is the only way I was able to let go of the anger I had in my life.. she ended up healing me. It is easy to say let it go and not be bitter BUT not so easy when you have been hurt. it is easy to say today is a new day lets be glad but not so easy to DO , with her I learned how to live in the moment really lol (oh we had some fun) and be thankful for what I got right in front of me!!! because she had to live like that I learned the joy of letting go of alot of deressing thoughts and attitudes about what we think is important. I may have been paid a salary to help her live her life but she is the one who really changed my own for the better.
I guess I can relate to terrys parents, ya know, sometimes we do not recognize how valuable someone is untill we realize how much we change just for the loving of them. to me it is enough in life and always will be. it is the reason I want to live every single day.
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Stayed Too Long
Well I for one did read the rest of Ttssa's post and found it quite loving and truthful. Here is a woman giving us a birdseye view into the challenges of her life the past 30 years. Honestly sharing with us the frustration she has had to live with and incorporate into her everyday activities.
When we are asked a question an answer is immediately on the tip of our tongue, but with this woman it requires a deliberate, conscious effort on her part to even get the process of thinking involved.
I can only imagine what it must be like in social situations for her. She remians quiet because she is not sure of how to respond. Afraid to say anything because what may come out of her mouth is not appropriate for the situation.
She deserves better than being scolded for appearing to be insulting. You may understand her insulting comment in a different context if you read the entire post. If you had to think about everything prior to saying it, not sure if it is appropriate, you may come to a different conclusion than you have so far.
Even if she did mean it to be insulting, after reading her post and seeing her point of view, she is justly entitled to her opinion.
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excathedra
dearest dear sunesis, i love and respect you so much
i don't think ttssa was being insulting, i really don't
when you previously said, "well, if you don't "get it" now you never will. If it doesn't bother you in the least, somewhere, way deep down, you have no conscience," i felt very very sad and confused. but then i figured you didn't mean it quite the way it sounded.....
**
Ttssa, thank you for your post. i have no words to tell you how much i think of you....
thank you
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Mark Sanguinetti
Ttessa:
That was a great post and I am glad that I read every word. It was well thought out and worded while showing a lot of heart. In spite of your perceived lack of brain function you do communicate well by the written word, better than most people here I might add, and this is something to be thankful for. I wish you well in all your endeavors and thank you for being so courageous in your hardships. You are an inspiration to us all.
Regards,
Mark
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dmiller
I read every word of Ttessa's post as well, and was very impressed.
Too much has already been said about "Terrie's case", so I will say no more about that.
Right now I am thinking about Clark (one of my clients at the group home), who takes over 30 pills a day (7 different med times daily), for his advanced Parkinson's, and schizophrenia, and for his mild mental retardation.
Granted -- he is not a brain injured person, but he had capabilities several years ago that he no longer has now. He used to walk fine. Now he uses a walker, or (in public) a chair that we push. Sometimes his body movements are so big, they overturn the easy-chair he sits in. He shakes so badly, that at meal time we have to spoon feed him.
He is 58, and once was a tall, and (very!) strong man, but now his body is becoming a shell of what it once was. He loves van rides, and rock and roll music, with the windows down, as we motor along cruising through his old neighborhood, or hitting the freeway for some speed, and distance.
Upshot of it is -- he loves life, regardless of what he is now. Yes -- at times he is frustrated by what he cannot control, but that is why I and the other staff are there for -- to let him know he is not to be blamed for it. And to let him know we are there to help him do what he wants.
Everyone has their opinions here, and may I say I respect them all. I really do. I see folks in situations that others might say, "why bother", but I see the same situation, and say "let's go for it!"
Guess I should have said that early on. Mighta been a more concise statement as to what I meant.
"God bless us. God bless us all, each and everyone." Tiny Tim
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wyteduv58
Damn, I lost my reply and it was so good too I'll try to remember what I wrote.
Lets see I was praising Ttessa for her post.
I was telling her that my Doctor had me tested for Altzheimers and the sheer terror I felt for 2 weeks til the test and the releif I felt finding out that I didn't have it. What I do have is short term memory loss which is very embarassing and how much I love whitedove, Steve and Paw for helping me over and over to do things on my putor and I keep forgetting, especially in trying to post picture's (I still can't remember how), and then posting them for me. Thanks alot guys. LOVE YA, DOVEY.
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Ttessa
I originally heard aboutTerri Sheivo at least two years ago. A friend who emails me often and who also sent many emails regarding his desire to see Roe vs Wade overturned, was the first one to tie this Sheivo matter to abortion. He is my friend but we don't agree on every issue that we've discussed. I don't understand (I can't relate by imagining) many points on either of these issues. Which makes me think that I'm not alone in not understanding some of the arguements. So, at what point do I, Ttessa, decide to allow my 'feelings' (intuition) to color my final opinion? That's always a hard question and I instinctively lean to the 'rational thought' side rather than the 'emotional'. For some reason I suppose it's 'smarter' to suppress the feelings & emotion. But the feelings and emotions are there for some reason. So, maybe it's not so 'smart' to squash them.
Mark, Thank you for your comments. I agree that "truth was a victim in this case." I don't have enough information about Terri Schiavo to say that I "advocate" permitting her death. I don't think any of us who must rely on the media reports can possibly be confident about which pertinent facts we believe. If Terri was only functioning with her brain stem, If Terri actually could not swallow on her own ability, if, if if........ There are a lot of factors that that I would consider if I were to systematically analyze the issue. But honestly, I've just spent about 45 minutes writting the last two sentences (trying to find the right words to express what my thoughts are). I grasp at facts and they dissappear ......it's kind of like trying to grab mercury. I don't know. I'm just glad it wasn't me who had to make that decision.
Should I have been euthanized rather than rehabilitated? Um, my understanding of the concept of 'euthanasia' is that the act is a purposeful, intentional act to end the life of a living person, although motivated by mercy for their circumstances. That wasn't an issue with me. I was never on life support of any kind.
I am not opposed to the concept of euthanasia, but think every person merits individual consideration. For those of us who have the ability to make a Living Will - I think we should. And we should make a legal statement about how we wish our dead bodies to be treated. Autopsy or not? Burial or creamation? I do not like the idea of 'policy' or 'law' deciding those issues for myself.
My opinions about my own circumstance are complicated; they're affected by many many experiences, both good and bad. Overall, I am proud of my accomplishments and grateful that my circumstances are mine. I deal with what I've been given. I've experienced hardships that very few can understand. So, as I wrote my post a wide variety of feelings surfaced. I know of no one who shares my exact circumstances, so whether my "opinion is universally true" or not doesn't figure into my purpose for relating my thoughts and feelings.
Some of the posters on this forum are really complete in their writtings and I marvel at their ability. I appreciate the effectiveness of presenting one's opinion in such a manner. I am and have been frustrated at the limitations I experience. Truth is, I don't know if "complete expression" is a learned ability or a cognitive function. Either way - I had to think long & hard about whether or not to post anything at all. On that Ben Franklin T technique - the Don't side had a lot more reasons than the Do side. The Do side said - You have a unique perspective, a gift, you should share it for the benefit of someone who might be comforted by a your perspective. I wasn't sure than anyone would read my post. I am surprised at the responses to it - both in variety and number. But I hope you will try to understand that I'm not willing to get into any more specifics than I've already revealed in this public forum. My email address is available for anyone who wants it. Thank you to all of you who posted supportive comments. They lightened my heart. MJ412 - yep, I've often offered my perspectives and experiences to motivate others who can benefit from my help. I am active in Brain Injury Support groups locally, and always try to inspire hope.
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markomalley
TTessa,
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that everybody should be able to direct their own health care, or desire to not receive such health care.
The reason I ask about policy here is primarily for the case that there are no relatives to act on behalf of the individual, especially if the individual has not expressed his or her wishes in writing. When the state is responsible to make decisions for an incapacitated individual, what guidelines should the state follow? But, in addition to that case, are there any limits that should be followed by a person's representatives, if that person hasn't expressed his or her wishes earlier in writing? Should a representative be able to say, "I know Ttessa wouldn't want to live like this, so go ahead and give her a Versed/Potassium shot now, so she won't have to suffer through this?" (btw, Versed is a major tranquilizer and potassium will stop the heart) That's where the policy comes into play: if the individual hasn't written down his or her wishes, what are the limits within which others may act on the individual's behalf?
But, again, congratulations on your rehab. I know enough folk with disabilities, including stroke victims, to at least appreciate the challenges that you've had to deal with and continue to have to deal with.
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mj412
Emotions and the ability to reason comes from our thoughts.
Our thoughts come from our brain. when damaged due to illness or accident it is reasonable to admit that these areas of thought are also "changed" in some manner.
This may mean point blank personality changes, such as a very logical person becoming very uncertain or a very happy go lucky kind of guy or girl may now be very serious etc. How recovery and its trouble and success also plays into ones emotions so the degrees and outcomes are never certain or able to be calculated.
Yet folks are seldom told this by dr. much less family members are family member made aware of the fact. The reason is no one wants to predict an outcome in a less than favorable light or even guess what may happens to ones "personality" when these things happen. I have a sister who had a stroke in her fifties, her own children admit her personality has changed to a huge degree, it may be the stress of recovery but more important it is also the brain is not the same and she thinks differntly and feels emotions differently. she has no patience for her grandchildren now , and a number of other rather radical concerns have come up. To look and have a conversation with my sister YOU would never know she had a stroke, yet we all notice that she is not the same as she was in many ways..
emotional consideration are complex but in injury or illness the brain will and does compensate in fantastic ways but not often without a cost to who the individual may have been in thoughts and abilty to display and handle emotional contents previous to the problem.
the ignorance of loved ones and the hesitation from the medical community to educate these families compound the situations and complex decisions that have to be made after such situations. Maybe before the accident you knew this person to be sure to feel a certain way about a manner YET now they have done a 180 and you may not realize why, it is part of the injury and the process the brain takes to repair itself and I personaly believe a person own will to live within who they are now (we are what we think) . Does a family have a right to decide from a persons past life before injury that is how they must feel now? People are allowed to change and in these types of cases are forced to change who they are. Who is a family memeber husband or not to say it must not be good enough ?
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