Just because he was the husband, so what! How many husbands have never erred. He abdicated his rights to her when he broke his wedding vows, entered into another relationship with a woman and had her children.
Now people are defending polygamy? ok, whatever. If a woman decided to take on another husband while married to you men here, I bet you'd be up in arms.
There was just too much doubt in this case.
Well, that certainly hits the nail on the head! But you really shouldn't bring that up Sunesis, you might ruffle the feathers of the "good old boy" club...
None of us know what did or didn't get said between the husband and wife.
I don't think any of us really know what her condition was, I think we've been "fed" whatever information either side thinks best helps their case.
If the husband wanted to move on with his life, as it appeared he already had, what's the harm of letting her parents take over custodial care?
Sure he would look like a jerk, but he would to some no matter which way the thing went.
One of the things that I find interesting is that the way the media has portrayed it there are more people on the side of "don't pull the tube"... yet every poll I've seen shows that at least 85% of the respondants WOULD NOT want to be kept alive like that.
Again, I don't see what harm it would have done to let the parents take it over... but odd that there seems to be an overwhelming amount of folks that wouldn't want to "live" like that yet wanted her to...
Coolwaters, thanks! I'd love to have that quote to copy. It is oh so true.
quote:
As to his relationship with another woman, I don't see why Christians are getting upset about that, since it was common in biblical times to have multiple wives.
Well, Mr. P., that was sure a long time before Christ. Gee, then why don't we go back to an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? You hurt me, I hurt you the same way back, then we are even. That makes a lot of sense.
I'm not sure if you are talking about before or after death. Of course after death, a person isn't conscious. Are you asking conscious as in awake or aware of what's going on.
LOL! Of course I meant while they are still alive. That was cute. Actually, I meant conscious as in being aware of what is going on around them.
Ever notice how our "way brain" wants us to make someone the villian so we can sleep better at night knowing who to blame?
It is so much easier thinking, it will never happen to me if we can find the true perp to blame. We love righteous anger still, don't we?
Maybe someday we can accept that bad things just happen, when there is no bad guy and where each choice can be the right choice and still be the wrong choice...depending on what experiences you are using to make that call.
Maybe someday we will start to let others off the hook and just be grateful for the choices we were not forced to make that day...
As to his relationship with another woman, I don't see why Christians are getting upset about that, since it was common in biblical times to have multiple wives.
"Well, Mr. P., that was sure a long time before Christ. Gee, then why don't we go back to an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? You hurt me, I hurt you the same way back, then we are even. That makes a lot of sense"
Not so long really.
It had simply gotten out of fashion, in large part. Still around but not as popular during Jesus' ministry era. The OT guidlines setup the 'rules' governing households and duties, which included such. Jesus had plenty of oportunity to address the issue, as did Paul; but G-d did not direct either to do so.
It was not like there was any real doctrine or laws against it, not until many centuries later [A.D.]
I'm not taking offense at the comment, nor am I promoting polygamy.
I'm simply saying that I feel this is, by its very nature, a "perfect catch 22" or a completely "no win" situation for Michael Schiavo. "We" would be calling him a jerk in this situation no matter what he did, just as Tom said.
I wouldn't feel any different were the situation reversed and the husband were the incapacitated one.
I agree with those who feel she was unnaturally kept alive for all those years, one moment at a time. I believe it is equally possible for her in all those videos to have been saying, "LET ME GO!" I don't think anyone would argue that the "medical meeasures" taken stopped what would have been a natural decline into death as a result of the original injury or condition.
It is an assumption that she was fighting for life because we know not what she actually said in HER brain.
My experience with my parents and their deaths taught me something about accepting death. Both of my parents fought for DEATH when they were in a situation where their bodies began to fail them to a certain extent when their vitality was gone. They both felt that their inability to be who they once were in life was worse than what awaited them in death.
My personal experience, tied with God not being a respecter of persons leads me to believe Terri was similar to my parents. For example. My Father showed up at Sunday dinner at my Mom's house and told us all "Goodbye." He refused to stay and eat. He went around the table and told each of us, not, his usual see ya'll later, he said "Goodbye."
My younger sister even called him on his erie "Goodbyes." "Don't you mean see you later?" He softly said, "I meant what I said." He kissed my baby (now 18 years old), held her up above his head, played with her a little bit & went home.
My sister went to visit him because she was a little freaked by his visit & found him dead at his apartment less than 24 hours later.
My Mom, sat with me privately and made me promise her that I would not allow my sisters and brother, all of whom are "more emotional" than I, to force her back into the chemotherapy treatment that has forced her lung cancer into remission and gave her five more years of life.
I begged her not to make me promise. I told her I couldn't keep such a promise. I told her we all still needed her.
"No you don't." she said. Then she said. "Besides, this isn't about you all, its about ME. I'm tired, living on this world is not worth all of this."
Mom didn't sit with all of us, she sat with EACH of us.. When she weakened to a certain extent, she was hospitalized, knowing fully well her body would deteriorate to a "persistent vegetative state" before finally slipping away to death. I gave her all of the miracle, God can heal you, He did it once before," wrap.
She said, "Don't you think I know all that?" As I talked with both parents, who died five years apart, mt Dad first; it was clear they knew something "new" about death that I didn't know.
I believe Terri Schiavo knew something about death that none of know and we won't know until we are in HER shoes. I believe whatever conversation may have taken place privately between her and Michael. I don't believe Michael's later apparently immoral relationship released him from his marriage to Terri. I can't say he was "right" to do that, buy then again I don't believe "we" can get to "right" from here.
BTW, both of my parents made sure they were ALONE, when they died. My Mom, once she became "vegetated" was put on "death watch" status by the hospital, they called those of us family members who lived out of town & said "come - - now." We made sure we had someone with her round the clock & took organized shifts. WE didn't want her to be alone when she passed.
My Aunt, while sitting with Mom, recieved a call in Mom's room (pre cellphone days) and she had to leave earlier than planned. She called my sister, who agreed to come asap. Auntie had to leave before siter arrived. The overlap was less than 20 minites, when sis arrived, Mom was gone.
My Mom who was unaware, unresponsive, etc. according to all Dr. predictions and tests, just happened to die during the only time she had been alone for several weeks.
I believe the right thing to do was to let Terri go when she "died" years ago. I don't believe we should allow the egocentric, self-serving attitudes of medical "Dr's" to define life & death for us any more than we x-wafers would allow "DR." Wierwille to define what is "healing" for us. (Meet me in my motorcoach, & I'll explain what I'm talking about. )
I'm appalled at this situation partially because it is painfully clear that religious leaders ARE using her plight to backdoor overturning Roe V Wade. I've heard the live radio interviews. They are using the "life is life is life" approach to expand the constituent base beyond "evangelicals" to build enough public outrage to get enough votes to turn the tide in their favor. They do this feeling that they would save SOOO many lives by overturning the abortion law.
If you don't see THAT in this, then you're not looking closely enough at it.
There simply aren't enough christians ACTIVE enough in politics to get them the votes. They know it they lament about it during times when ther ISN'T an issue large enough to capture the imgination of the general public and form a national debate. They even go so far as to actually chide those who regularly listen to them, be it in seats in their congregations or radio or wherever.
They need more votes. They pounced on this one like a roaring lion.
I'm not for abortion. I just believe that should we overturn Roe V Wade, we will create more criminals. Laws do more to create "innocent" criminals than they do to shape or deter criminal behavior. I believe the way to reduce abortion is better served by strong education than firmer legislation.
Death has been happening horribly on this planet for 6000 years and will continue for who knows how long. It is a fallacy of logic to insist that a person who once could walk, talk, sing, dance, etc. would prefer "living" with a tube down her neck for others to deposit nutrition at regular intervals into while being confined to a bed, at the whim of whatever caretaker; to death.
Yeah. I know death is an enemy, et al. But it is in the cards for ALL of us. EVERY death is horrible. I feel for ever "Terri Schiavo," especially the disenfranchised ones we NEVER hear about. Like the ones who died LAST week in obscurity because THEY didn't have the resources to have "one MILLion DOOLars" worth of "appropriate treatment" paid for via a HUSBAND WHO FILED A LAWSUIT, or have it DONATED.
This life is a work in progress. We're just not "there yet," there are many many people who were facing the SAME death as Terri Schiavo. They didn't get one second of Jim Dobson's, or President Bush's attention in a national address or press conference. Their case, and subsequent deaths didn't have the media sex appeal to get YOUR attention and MINE. My tears go to THEM, frankly more than Terri - although she gets her fair share. Michael gets a few tears too. Should HE be denied LOVE and fatherhood because SATAN struck his wife? EVERY marriage has problems. What has HE gained today, if the this whole thing was a scam on his part?
He's replaced OJ, Robert Blake, and Michael Jackson as America's biggest jerk. If he was Black would "we" call him a PIMP too?
It is a Godless, non spiritual societal view that says, use a machine to keep the "human" shell functioning when it cannot do so on its own. "WE will sustain her until God gets around to deciding whether or not she should recieve a "miracle of healing."
Do you not see how that thinking can say, "Ok God, if you won't heal her WE will...???" We'll just keep her "alive" long enough until we can figure out just how to do it.
No matter the cost. No matter the personal hardship SHE endures, remembering, how she was once able to walk out the door of her room same as her caretakers do.
I was recently unable to walk without crutches for about two months. I FOUND myself actually resenting people who would open doors for me, or even people who COULD walk! I had to FIGHT those thoughts to get them OUT of my mind. I really didn't even want to think that way. My own pain, and dissapointment about what I ONCE could do was ever before me. Jealousy struck me even when my sons would say, "You want me to bring it you you Daddy."
If Terri WAS aware, she was aware of how much she ONCE could do but NOW couldn't. My guess was that she wassentenced to 15 years of torture. I've also read that it takes closer to 21 or 28 days to die from starvation. It is possible that she willed herself to die sooner?
? ? ?
Hate Satan. He's the ONLY bad guy here. Seems to me like everyone else involved was just trying to do what they felt was best in light of a horrible situation.
There were a very preciouse few helpful things out of anyone's mouth when my husband was dying and upon his death.
Save for one.
"Revelation is not the same as desperation"
This came about because people that loved the man wanted to raise him from the dead, take any and all medical action possible to 'bring him back'.
I understood the emotional outcry. I also knew that he'd never want such measures, not because I knew so much, but because we had conversations in our marriage. We talked to each other about life.
Grief is one of the most powerful emotional rollercoasters there is. It can knock anyone on his/her foot!
In our society, I think we have come to some wierd place where we feel that if we agree to allow someone to die quietly, to respect their wishes, we are somehow responsible for the death.
When it's our child.........well I can't go there in my brain. I asked both of my daughters about this and got their feelings on what they'd want in the event something happened. They also know my feelings if they have to make such a decision for me.
And the crucial part is that it's written down properly. It will have to be reviewed every year or so because my children are both young and things will change in their lives.
Not fun conversations, but necessary nonetheless. Someone has to say it.
Why are we so afraid to talk to our family about sensitive issues, though?
We will never know the whole truth re: this case that made national news, ripping families apart. Each has his/her own words, and they are the only right ones.
All emotionalism aside (and I have interjected my own emotionalism here earlier-please forgive me...), I have this to say:
No one knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman, except for that man or that woman. I will go further on to say that God Almighty also knows what is in the heart of that man or that woman. Some, as in the case of Mister P-Mosh (spelled your name right bruh), do not believe in God, but my point here is this:
Who really knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman? Do you or I know what was in Terri Schiavo's heart as she was slowly starved to death? Do You Mr P-Mosh? Do you really know? The answer to this is a resounding NO. None of us know! Only that person, or God (if you believe in Him) knows.
Therefore, how is it that we as a People have the gall to sit back and judge that, "well, she's done. It's been fifteen years, shoot, get it over with. Just quit feedin' her. That way she'll be out of her misery, and her husband can now get along with his new and comparatively vibrant wife.
Haven't any of you folks who favor the pulling of her feeding tube read of those who have been in comas, and how they, after coming out of that coma, told of how they had recognized and known when their loved ones had been by their sides at the hospital bed, but were unable to communicate because of their condition?
Surely you have! Well, since you nor I really know what was in the heart of this woman Terri Schiavo, then who are we to judge whether or not she "knew what was going on?" Why not err on the side of caution and let her LIVE?
I spent three weeks in a hospital in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with a Corps Brother whose wife was in a coma, and when she finally came out of it (praise God!) she said that she had been aware of our prayer, our presence, and our ministrations! Wow, we were so blessed to learn of that. She even told us of the things that were said....
And so, what was so incredibly WRONG with allowing this gal, Terri Schiavo, TO LIVE as long as she could draw breath? What was so evil about allowing her parents to take over her hospice care and releasing her husband to go off and tend to his common law "wife"?
Nothing, nothing, and more nothing.
Terri, even though you are dead, and "know not a thing", we shall see you in that Promised Land where there shall be no more tears nor sorrow, where our God who is Almighty, "Dr. Jehovah Rapha", the Lord Our Healer, will make sure that all life is lived as He would have it...
for that matter Jonny, we don't know what was in the heart and mind of Michael, or the Schindlers, but folks have certainly made some harsh judgements based on their limited and in some cases erroneous "knowledge"
I am with Shellon on this one, DO THE PAPERWORK and have it written, then if someone wants to slander you with hideous accusations, at least you have the paperwork to prove your spouse's intent at the moment the papers were signed.
Yeah, well, I guess you are right, it's best that they killed her. I mean, she's dead now, and her thoughts have now perished, and so it doesn't matter..
"dead men tell no tales. Yo ho ho hum and a bottle of rum....."
At least the mother, father and "loving husband" still have life and breath, no matter what their psychological "stress"...
I've no desire to interfere with you guys but Jonny does convey a great deal of my sentiments, but likewise I agree with you also Hap.
But mostly I agree with Shell!!!!! Without something that proves you said it in sound mind you impose on all whom love you to be burdened not only with the loss but with the agony of making decisions that will be IMPOSSIBLE to please EVERYONE regarding.
And so, what was so incredibly WRONG with allowing this gal, Terri Schiavo, TO LIVE as long as she could draw breath? What was so evil about allowing her parents to take over her hospice care and releasing her husband to go off and tend to his common law "wife"?
Nothing, nothing, and more nothing.
...it just wasn't OUR call. It wasn't society's call to make, it wasn't the judidicary's call, it wasn't Terri's parents' call. It was Michael Schiavo's call.
For as much as I may or may not agree with the call he made, as I may or may not have done what he did. I feel I MUST totally agree with his right to MAKE the call. That is, if I want to retain MY total right to make MY calls in MY life.
Our society and judiciary has added provisions to keep this from happening, a relatively simple document that we each can sign. We can draft anything in we wish in a document and simply go to the county court house, a library, a post office, or ANYWHERE a Notary Public works, or lives and have them notarize it. I, myself have been a notary, I'd gladly affix my stamp and signiture to something like that.
Additionally make a legal copy and mail it to yourself. When it arrives, put it in your file, leave it unopened. Tell a number of your trusted loved ones when it is. Even give them a copy if you'd like.
In the event of such a thing as this one, you could speak literaly, and as clearly as you wish to address the issue TODAY in all your present vitality TODAY, from your coma or even from the grave.
I have letters, cards, my journals, etc. That I've already declared (and notified her of the same) will become the property of my brilliant first born daughter. Some of the letters are to her and will be a part of my Graduation gift to her as she graduates from High school in a few weeks. ((((((((Shell)))))))))
Unfortunately for Terri Schiavo, from what I see of this, her family and the courts could not override her lack of utilizing her right to have deterred all of this.
Please see this Schiavo issue is not about "FAULT" its about RIGHTS.
I am relieved that when its all said and done, the foundational issue that was protected, in the midst of a tragic loss of health, then life, what remained was the the legal upholding of the institution of marriage. Along withthat, an individual's right to choose.
Even IF michael Schiavo made the wrong choice(s).
That is what makes our country great, like it or not.
I also think it it great that so many care enough about one person to get so emotionally involved. It speaks to me about how great our country is, warts & all.
Oh, I don't know Chatty, I threw that one up, when I figured out how to actually put one up. I'm gonna change it soon.
I actually am an artist, and I used to post on TranceChat about 8 years ago as K.I.S.S., you know the old "Keep It Simple Stupid" thing...?
There was a lot of craziness flying 'round the threads then that is really not all that prevalent here on GS.
I used to really POUND that "keep it simple" concept back then and threw in more than a few "don't be STUPID's." It was really hard to have a civilized discussion in those days.
I'm thinking now that my signiture carries a more gentle reference to the fact that I (at least I TRY to ) keep things simple, and reduce complex issues to tangible common denominators, stuff like that.
I'm not so hot on the word "stylings" though.... Suggestions?
Well you all, I know it was a tough call, Shell, HCW, it's just that it seems like there was too much gray area in this deal than would normally occur in a situation where a husband really seemed to be standing by his woman in sickness and in health.
The new "wife" while he was not divorced from Terri Schiavo, throws a whole new dimension into it, and as Sunesis said; "he abdicated his right to make that decision" by living with and fathering two children with this other woman. If he was going to do that, he should have divorced her and let her parents, who were so willing to care for her, take over.
This one is "fishy", and I think the err should have fallen on the benefit of the doubt for this woman. That's it. This has all been said by others before, so that's my last word on it.
I've been thinking about this in a slightly different context lately.
We all know through history, the woman was always considered "property" of the man - father, brother, husband when she married. It wasn't until this century that woman even got the right to vote.
It seems most of the people avidly defending her "right" to be put to death are men. Its the old, hey, he's the husband, he has the right argument.
I have wondered, what would have happened if this case had appeared before women judges. If MS, 7 years after the fact, had gone before a woman judge and said, your honor, I remember she told me once she'd want to die, and my brother here will back it up.
I think a woman would have said, where's the proof? Why should I take your word over the word of people and nurses you were with whom you told the opposite? Whom you told, I have no idea what to do, I don't know what she wanted, we never discussed it?
Why should I just take your say-so? But a male judge just said, ok guy, no problem, I believe you. I wonder how much of the male mentality came into play here on a subconscious level.
What if it were a woman who wanted her husband put to death in this manner? She says, judge, its seven years later, my lover and I are happy and I've had two of his kids, and I remember my husband told me, he would want to die and my sister here will back me up. Would a male judge have just gone along with it? I think he would have found some doubt.
I think we would have seen a much different ending with a female judge or a role reversal.
"We all know through history, the woman was always considered "property" of the man - father, brother, husband when she married. It wasn't until this century that woman even got the right to vote."
LOL
It is still common to hear: "who gives this woman, to this man?"
In the absense of exchanging money for property, she is now 'given' away. But it is still expected to be the bride's father or previous husband, who 'gives' her to her next owner.
In some cultures the bride is given gold bracelets, the bracelets are to be her property, to purchase her devotion. Here a gold ring is given instead of the bracelets. It is still "a ring of gold: a precious metal in the form of a circle to symbolize the eternity for which the pledge of the bonds of marriage stand for."
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Sunesis said;
Well, that certainly hits the nail on the head! But you really shouldn't bring that up Sunesis, you might ruffle the feathers of the "good old boy" club...
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Tom Strange
None of us know what did or didn't get said between the husband and wife.
I don't think any of us really know what her condition was, I think we've been "fed" whatever information either side thinks best helps their case.
If the husband wanted to move on with his life, as it appeared he already had, what's the harm of letting her parents take over custodial care?
Sure he would look like a jerk, but he would to some no matter which way the thing went.
One of the things that I find interesting is that the way the media has portrayed it there are more people on the side of "don't pull the tube"... yet every poll I've seen shows that at least 85% of the respondants WOULD NOT want to be kept alive like that.
Again, I don't see what harm it would have done to let the parents take it over... but odd that there seems to be an overwhelming amount of folks that wouldn't want to "live" like that yet wanted her to...
just an observation...
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waterbuffalo
Tom, I'm in awe of you, once again
:)-->
Coolwaters, thanks! I'd love to have that quote to copy. It is oh so true.
Well, Mr. P., that was sure a long time before Christ. Gee, then why don't we go back to an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? You hurt me, I hurt you the same way back, then we are even. That makes a lot of sense.
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waterbuffalo
LOL! Of course I meant while they are still alive. That was cute. Actually, I meant conscious as in being aware of what is going on around them.
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karmicdebt
Ever notice how our "way brain" wants us to make someone the villian so we can sleep better at night knowing who to blame?
It is so much easier thinking, it will never happen to me if we can find the true perp to blame. We love righteous anger still, don't we?
Maybe someday we can accept that bad things just happen, when there is no bad guy and where each choice can be the right choice and still be the wrong choice...depending on what experiences you are using to make that call.
Maybe someday we will start to let others off the hook and just be grateful for the choices we were not forced to make that day...
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Galen
waterbuffalo:
"Well, Mr. P., that was sure a long time before Christ. Gee, then why don't we go back to an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? You hurt me, I hurt you the same way back, then we are even. That makes a lot of sense"
Not so long really.
It had simply gotten out of fashion, in large part. Still around but not as popular during Jesus' ministry era. The OT guidlines setup the 'rules' governing households and duties, which included such. Jesus had plenty of oportunity to address the issue, as did Paul; but G-d did not direct either to do so.
It was not like there was any real doctrine or laws against it, not until many centuries later [A.D.]
:-)
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HCW
I'm not taking offense at the comment, nor am I promoting polygamy.
I'm simply saying that I feel this is, by its very nature, a "perfect catch 22" or a completely "no win" situation for Michael Schiavo. "We" would be calling him a jerk in this situation no matter what he did, just as Tom said.
I wouldn't feel any different were the situation reversed and the husband were the incapacitated one.
I agree with those who feel she was unnaturally kept alive for all those years, one moment at a time. I believe it is equally possible for her in all those videos to have been saying, "LET ME GO!" I don't think anyone would argue that the "medical meeasures" taken stopped what would have been a natural decline into death as a result of the original injury or condition.
It is an assumption that she was fighting for life because we know not what she actually said in HER brain.
My experience with my parents and their deaths taught me something about accepting death. Both of my parents fought for DEATH when they were in a situation where their bodies began to fail them to a certain extent when their vitality was gone. They both felt that their inability to be who they once were in life was worse than what awaited them in death.
My personal experience, tied with God not being a respecter of persons leads me to believe Terri was similar to my parents. For example. My Father showed up at Sunday dinner at my Mom's house and told us all "Goodbye." He refused to stay and eat. He went around the table and told each of us, not, his usual see ya'll later, he said "Goodbye."
My younger sister even called him on his erie "Goodbyes." "Don't you mean see you later?" He softly said, "I meant what I said." He kissed my baby (now 18 years old), held her up above his head, played with her a little bit & went home.
My sister went to visit him because she was a little freaked by his visit & found him dead at his apartment less than 24 hours later.
My Mom, sat with me privately and made me promise her that I would not allow my sisters and brother, all of whom are "more emotional" than I, to force her back into the chemotherapy treatment that has forced her lung cancer into remission and gave her five more years of life.
I begged her not to make me promise. I told her I couldn't keep such a promise. I told her we all still needed her.
"No you don't." she said. Then she said. "Besides, this isn't about you all, its about ME. I'm tired, living on this world is not worth all of this."
Mom didn't sit with all of us, she sat with EACH of us.. When she weakened to a certain extent, she was hospitalized, knowing fully well her body would deteriorate to a "persistent vegetative state" before finally slipping away to death. I gave her all of the miracle, God can heal you, He did it once before," wrap.
She said, "Don't you think I know all that?" As I talked with both parents, who died five years apart, mt Dad first; it was clear they knew something "new" about death that I didn't know.
I believe Terri Schiavo knew something about death that none of know and we won't know until we are in HER shoes. I believe whatever conversation may have taken place privately between her and Michael. I don't believe Michael's later apparently immoral relationship released him from his marriage to Terri. I can't say he was "right" to do that, buy then again I don't believe "we" can get to "right" from here.
BTW, both of my parents made sure they were ALONE, when they died. My Mom, once she became "vegetated" was put on "death watch" status by the hospital, they called those of us family members who lived out of town & said "come - - now." We made sure we had someone with her round the clock & took organized shifts. WE didn't want her to be alone when she passed.
My Aunt, while sitting with Mom, recieved a call in Mom's room (pre cellphone days) and she had to leave earlier than planned. She called my sister, who agreed to come asap. Auntie had to leave before siter arrived. The overlap was less than 20 minites, when sis arrived, Mom was gone.
My Mom who was unaware, unresponsive, etc. according to all Dr. predictions and tests, just happened to die during the only time she had been alone for several weeks.
I believe the right thing to do was to let Terri go when she "died" years ago. I don't believe we should allow the egocentric, self-serving attitudes of medical "Dr's" to define life & death for us any more than we x-wafers would allow "DR." Wierwille to define what is "healing" for us. (Meet me in my motorcoach, & I'll explain what I'm talking about.
)
I'm appalled at this situation partially because it is painfully clear that religious leaders ARE using her plight to backdoor overturning Roe V Wade. I've heard the live radio interviews. They are using the "life is life is life" approach to expand the constituent base beyond "evangelicals" to build enough public outrage to get enough votes to turn the tide in their favor. They do this feeling that they would save SOOO many lives by overturning the abortion law.
If you don't see THAT in this, then you're not looking closely enough at it.
There simply aren't enough christians ACTIVE enough in politics to get them the votes. They know it they lament about it during times when ther ISN'T an issue large enough to capture the imgination of the general public and form a national debate. They even go so far as to actually chide those who regularly listen to them, be it in seats in their congregations or radio or wherever.
They need more votes. They pounced on this one like a roaring lion.
I'm not for abortion. I just believe that should we overturn Roe V Wade, we will create more criminals. Laws do more to create "innocent" criminals than they do to shape or deter criminal behavior. I believe the way to reduce abortion is better served by strong education than firmer legislation.
Death has been happening horribly on this planet for 6000 years and will continue for who knows how long. It is a fallacy of logic to insist that a person who once could walk, talk, sing, dance, etc. would prefer "living" with a tube down her neck for others to deposit nutrition at regular intervals into while being confined to a bed, at the whim of whatever caretaker; to death.
Yeah. I know death is an enemy, et al. But it is in the cards for ALL of us. EVERY death is horrible. I feel for ever "Terri Schiavo," especially the disenfranchised ones we NEVER hear about. Like the ones who died LAST week in obscurity because THEY didn't have the resources to have "one MILLion DOOLars" worth of "appropriate treatment" paid for via a HUSBAND WHO FILED A LAWSUIT, or have it DONATED.
This life is a work in progress. We're just not "there yet," there are many many people who were facing the SAME death as Terri Schiavo. They didn't get one second of Jim Dobson's, or President Bush's attention in a national address or press conference. Their case, and subsequent deaths didn't have the media sex appeal to get YOUR attention and MINE. My tears go to THEM, frankly more than Terri - although she gets her fair share. Michael gets a few tears too. Should HE be denied LOVE and fatherhood because SATAN struck his wife? EVERY marriage has problems. What has HE gained today, if the this whole thing was a scam on his part?
He's replaced OJ, Robert Blake, and Michael Jackson as America's biggest jerk. If he was Black would "we" call him a PIMP too?
It is a Godless, non spiritual societal view that says, use a machine to keep the "human" shell functioning when it cannot do so on its own. "WE will sustain her until God gets around to deciding whether or not she should recieve a "miracle of healing."
Do you not see how that thinking can say, "Ok God, if you won't heal her WE will...???" We'll just keep her "alive" long enough until we can figure out just how to do it.
No matter the cost. No matter the personal hardship SHE endures, remembering, how she was once able to walk out the door of her room same as her caretakers do.
I was recently unable to walk without crutches for about two months. I FOUND myself actually resenting people who would open doors for me, or even people who COULD walk! I had to FIGHT those thoughts to get them OUT of my mind. I really didn't even want to think that way. My own pain, and dissapointment about what I ONCE could do was ever before me. Jealousy struck me even when my sons would say, "You want me to bring it you you Daddy."
If Terri WAS aware, she was aware of how much she ONCE could do but NOW couldn't. My guess was that she wassentenced to 15 years of torture. I've also read that it takes closer to 21 or 28 days to die from starvation. It is possible that she willed herself to die sooner?
? ? ?
Hate Satan. He's the ONLY bad guy here. Seems to me like everyone else involved was just trying to do what they felt was best in light of a horrible situation.
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Shellon
There were a very preciouse few helpful things out of anyone's mouth when my husband was dying and upon his death.
Save for one.
"Revelation is not the same as desperation"
This came about because people that loved the man wanted to raise him from the dead, take any and all medical action possible to 'bring him back'.
I understood the emotional outcry. I also knew that he'd never want such measures, not because I knew so much, but because we had conversations in our marriage. We talked to each other about life.
Grief is one of the most powerful emotional rollercoasters there is. It can knock anyone on his/her foot!
In our society, I think we have come to some wierd place where we feel that if we agree to allow someone to die quietly, to respect their wishes, we are somehow responsible for the death.
When it's our child.........well I can't go there in my brain. I asked both of my daughters about this and got their feelings on what they'd want in the event something happened. They also know my feelings if they have to make such a decision for me.
And the crucial part is that it's written down properly. It will have to be reviewed every year or so because my children are both young and things will change in their lives.
Not fun conversations, but necessary nonetheless. Someone has to say it.
Why are we so afraid to talk to our family about sensitive issues, though?
We will never know the whole truth re: this case that made national news, ripping families apart. Each has his/her own words, and they are the only right ones.
Make sure it doesn't happen in your family.
Please.
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J0nny Ling0
All emotionalism aside (and I have interjected my own emotionalism here earlier-please forgive me...), I have this to say:
No one knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman, except for that man or that woman. I will go further on to say that God Almighty also knows what is in the heart of that man or that woman. Some, as in the case of Mister P-Mosh (spelled your name right bruh), do not believe in God, but my point here is this:
Who really knows what is in the heart of a man or a woman? Do you or I know what was in Terri Schiavo's heart as she was slowly starved to death? Do You Mr P-Mosh? Do you really know? The answer to this is a resounding NO. None of us know! Only that person, or God (if you believe in Him) knows.
Therefore, how is it that we as a People have the gall to sit back and judge that, "well, she's done. It's been fifteen years, shoot, get it over with. Just quit feedin' her. That way she'll be out of her misery, and her husband can now get along with his new and comparatively vibrant wife.
Haven't any of you folks who favor the pulling of her feeding tube read of those who have been in comas, and how they, after coming out of that coma, told of how they had recognized and known when their loved ones had been by their sides at the hospital bed, but were unable to communicate because of their condition?
Surely you have! Well, since you nor I really know what was in the heart of this woman Terri Schiavo, then who are we to judge whether or not she "knew what was going on?" Why not err on the side of caution and let her LIVE?
I spent three weeks in a hospital in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with a Corps Brother whose wife was in a coma, and when she finally came out of it (praise God!) she said that she had been aware of our prayer, our presence, and our ministrations! Wow, we were so blessed to learn of that. She even told us of the things that were said....
And so, what was so incredibly WRONG with allowing this gal, Terri Schiavo, TO LIVE as long as she could draw breath? What was so evil about allowing her parents to take over her hospice care and releasing her husband to go off and tend to his common law "wife"?
Nothing, nothing, and more nothing.
Terri, even though you are dead, and "know not a thing", we shall see you in that Promised Land where there shall be no more tears nor sorrow, where our God who is Almighty, "Dr. Jehovah Rapha", the Lord Our Healer, will make sure that all life is lived as He would have it...
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HAPe4me
for that matter Jonny, we don't know what was in the heart and mind of Michael, or the Schindlers, but folks have certainly made some harsh judgements based on their limited and in some cases erroneous "knowledge"
I am with Shellon on this one, DO THE PAPERWORK and have it written, then if someone wants to slander you with hideous accusations, at least you have the paperwork to prove your spouse's intent at the moment the papers were signed.
~HAP
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah, well, I guess you are right, it's best that they killed her. I mean, she's dead now, and her thoughts have now perished, and so it doesn't matter..
"dead men tell no tales. Yo ho ho hum and a bottle of rum....."
At least the mother, father and "loving husband" still have life and breath, no matter what their psychological "stress"...
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HAPe4me
did I say that? nope, didn't think so.~HAP
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ChattyKathy
I've no desire to interfere with you guys but Jonny does convey a great deal of my sentiments, but likewise I agree with you also Hap.
But mostly I agree with Shell!!!!! Without something that proves you said it in sound mind you impose on all whom love you to be burdened not only with the loss but with the agony of making decisions that will be IMPOSSIBLE to please EVERYONE regarding.
I'm sickened by the media circus.
Raf, why can't we just clone you?????
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HCW
...it just wasn't OUR call. It wasn't society's call to make, it wasn't the judidicary's call, it wasn't Terri's parents' call. It was Michael Schiavo's call.
For as much as I may or may not agree with the call he made, as I may or may not have done what he did. I feel I MUST totally agree with his right to MAKE the call. That is, if I want to retain MY total right to make MY calls in MY life.
Our society and judiciary has added provisions to keep this from happening, a relatively simple document that we each can sign. We can draft anything in we wish in a document and simply go to the county court house, a library, a post office, or ANYWHERE a Notary Public works, or lives and have them notarize it. I, myself have been a notary, I'd gladly affix my stamp and signiture to something like that.
Additionally make a legal copy and mail it to yourself. When it arrives, put it in your file, leave it unopened. Tell a number of your trusted loved ones when it is. Even give them a copy if you'd like.
In the event of such a thing as this one, you could speak literaly, and as clearly as you wish to address the issue TODAY in all your present vitality TODAY, from your coma or even from the grave.
I have letters, cards, my journals, etc. That I've already declared (and notified her of the same) will become the property of my brilliant first born daughter. Some of the letters are to her and will be a part of my Graduation gift to her as she graduates from High school in a few weeks. ((((((((Shell)))))))))
Unfortunately for Terri Schiavo, from what I see of this, her family and the courts could not override her lack of utilizing her right to have deterred all of this.
Please see this Schiavo issue is not about "FAULT" its about RIGHTS.
I am relieved that when its all said and done, the foundational issue that was protected, in the midst of a tragic loss of health, then life, what remained was the the legal upholding of the institution of marriage. Along withthat, an individual's right to choose.
Even IF michael Schiavo made the wrong choice(s).
That is what makes our country great, like it or not.
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ChattyKathy
Howard,
What does you signature mean?
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HCW
I also think it it great that so many care enough about one person to get so emotionally involved. It speaks to me about how great our country is, warts & all.
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HCW
Oh, I don't know Chatty, I threw that one up, when I figured out how to actually put one up. I'm gonna change it soon.
I actually am an artist, and I used to post on TranceChat about 8 years ago as K.I.S.S., you know the old "Keep It Simple Stupid" thing...?
There was a lot of craziness flying 'round the threads then that is really not all that prevalent here on GS.
I used to really POUND that "keep it simple" concept back then and threw in more than a few "don't be STUPID's." It was really hard to have a civilized discussion in those days.
I'm thinking now that my signiture carries a more gentle reference to the fact that I (at least I TRY to
) keep things simple, and reduce complex issues to tangible common denominators, stuff like that.
I'm not so hot on the word "stylings" though.... Suggestions?
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ChattyKathy
ha ha ha ha ha....well you could put:
A "kinder-gentler" word or two from the desk of...
ha ha ha ha ha....have a nice day all!
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J0nny Ling0
Well you all, I know it was a tough call, Shell, HCW, it's just that it seems like there was too much gray area in this deal than would normally occur in a situation where a husband really seemed to be standing by his woman in sickness and in health.
The new "wife" while he was not divorced from Terri Schiavo, throws a whole new dimension into it, and as Sunesis said; "he abdicated his right to make that decision" by living with and fathering two children with this other woman. If he was going to do that, he should have divorced her and let her parents, who were so willing to care for her, take over.
This one is "fishy", and I think the err should have fallen on the benefit of the doubt for this woman. That's it. This has all been said by others before, so that's my last word on it.
Have a really nice day you all...
Jonny
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Sunesis
I've been thinking about this in a slightly different context lately.
We all know through history, the woman was always considered "property" of the man - father, brother, husband when she married. It wasn't until this century that woman even got the right to vote.
It seems most of the people avidly defending her "right" to be put to death are men. Its the old, hey, he's the husband, he has the right argument.
I have wondered, what would have happened if this case had appeared before women judges. If MS, 7 years after the fact, had gone before a woman judge and said, your honor, I remember she told me once she'd want to die, and my brother here will back it up.
I think a woman would have said, where's the proof? Why should I take your word over the word of people and nurses you were with whom you told the opposite? Whom you told, I have no idea what to do, I don't know what she wanted, we never discussed it?
Why should I just take your say-so? But a male judge just said, ok guy, no problem, I believe you. I wonder how much of the male mentality came into play here on a subconscious level.
What if it were a woman who wanted her husband put to death in this manner? She says, judge, its seven years later, my lover and I are happy and I've had two of his kids, and I remember my husband told me, he would want to die and my sister here will back me up. Would a male judge have just gone along with it? I think he would have found some doubt.
I think we would have seen a much different ending with a female judge or a role reversal.
Just another perspective.
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Galen
Sunesis:
"We all know through history, the woman was always considered "property" of the man - father, brother, husband when she married. It wasn't until this century that woman even got the right to vote."
LOL
It is still common to hear: "who gives this woman, to this man?"
In the absense of exchanging money for property, she is now 'given' away. But it is still expected to be the bride's father or previous husband, who 'gives' her to her next owner.
In some cultures the bride is given gold bracelets, the bracelets are to be her property, to purchase her devotion. Here a gold ring is given instead of the bracelets. It is still "a ring of gold: a precious metal in the form of a circle to symbolize the eternity for which the pledge of the bonds of marriage stand for."
heh heh heh
:-)
[can you tell that I've done a few?]
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excathedra
karmie debt, thank you for your post
from me and our friend simonzee
love you
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karmicdebt
ah Exie, thanks and back at ya...
Are you playing "simon sez?"
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herbiejuan
See ya Terri
I hate it that your life and death turned into a media circus
I pray you and yours find peace
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