Exactly what I have been thinking lately. And the God I am finally becoming comfortable with seems to vary a little or a lot from what other people have proven in their hearts. I don't believe he is all knowing and all powerful. If he is all knowing why did he screw the job up, have to put a few on an ark to save, totally destroy everyone else he made in his image, begin the repopulation process again, and mess the whole thing up again? And instead of destroying everyone once more, he uses threats of death and eternal damnation to try and keep everyone in line?
He then realizes no one seems to be able to do all the laws and commandments he has laid out for his people, and comes to the conclusion his stipulations are just to difficult to accomplish, so he 'creates' a son who is one part god and one part human. He requires this 'son' to endure unimaginable torture, pain and death because his creation is not living up to expectations (I would have thought he could have forseen this and done things a little differently in the planning stages). Now all his weak children have to do is believe this son was raised from the dead and is their lord and all threats of damnation disappear.
If this 'father' were held to the same standards of earthly parents he would be found wanting. Should an earthly parent have knowledge that someone was going to murder his child or foresaw harmful circumstances coming his child's way, he would do all in his power to stop it. But if god knows someone is going to kill his child, or foresees an accident coming, he will allow it in the name of 'free will' choice of the perpetrator.
Can you image using that logic in front of a judge? It is inconceivable that a responsible parent would put up such a defense. But when a Christian's son or daughters body is mangled in a speeding accident, and they are forever confined to bed or wheelchair, or worse yet killed, their 'heavenly father' who is all powerful and all knowing says, "hey, free will choice, don't blame me'.
And it isn't just this god; it is most people's god in general. All are very contradictory in their claims versus their performance. If all were as powerful as they claim none of their people would be harmed or ever get sick.
There are chance reports of miracle healings which seem attributable to miracles, but most are due to science and medicine. For example, the only reason woman do not die in child birth today is because of surgery. If god was responsible for it a 100 years ago none would have died then.
Believing in this all powerful and all knowing god requires way to much blind faith and turning your head when he does not deliver on his promises.
First, fish, does not really want proof. And knows full well that *proof* of the existence of heaven/hell cannot be given to his/her satisfacion not matter how it is presented.
He/she simply want to spew anti-god, anti-bible stuff in this discussion forum.
Didn't you read wher he/she proudly declared that he/she wiped his a$$ with pages from his Bible? I think it's a safe bet that that was posted to intentionally offend folks here.
Here is the quote:
quote:
HA!!!! i scoff and .... on these so called epistles.
i used up my old bible long ago for toilet paper on several camping trips.
The person is not here to discuss - he/she is here simply to antagonize and offend.
I simply answered one rhetorical question with another one.And there was a point ... My point being that depending upon one's philosophical/religious bias that niether can be "proved".
Considering fish's apparent bias, and the playing field he/she has establsished, I think my question was well within bounds.
Now if your protest to my "meanness" is in referrence to my use of "fishbrain", then I will point out that it is simply a take off of "thinkfish", the brain being the organ we think with (well, some of us anyway)
Well, maybe fishy ran out of toilet paper and the pages of his bible were "easy to be entreated".
I mean in spite of having the brain of a fish, he/she has a point....as do you. So why not discuss this a little, even though we've been down that road before, maybe there is something to it.
While neither seem to be able to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, all of us here in non-cyber-existence see a post from think fish and as of yet no post directly from hevean or hell. All things could be possible in the realm of unprovable existence and therefore "....ing on the epistles" could in fact be the appropriate response. Your offense is not defense...neither is anything else seeing that no claim is at all provable in an absolute sense.
Ok I read the reply Think Fish wrote and Goey is right the person is out for a fight the way he answer was uncalled for
Goey did the right thing but he was not the first I even REPORTED fish a thing I do not like to do and aswer him about the same way
Hell he knows this is doctrine and about the bible and that kind of written is pointless at us because we love God
Maybe Pax can make him or her a non bible doctrine area were doctrines of fish can be taught
I strongly disagree.
There is no explicit rule that the "doctrinal" section of this forum is designed only for "believers" or those who "love God" - where are you gathering this from?
As distasteful and ugly as a person's opinion or outlook may appear to you or me or anyone else, they have just as much place to post here as anyone. If we're going to start segregating the forum according to whether one's a "believer" or "non-believer" (and if so - according to whose beliefs?) - we may as well be back in twi.
From my personal standpoint, I do not find it difficult at all to understand why some people who had undergone the extreme bs of the old gigantic cult should feel the way that they do. Yes, some people (a number who have suffered far more than myself and others) interpret their horrendous experiences as due to failure on part of the Bible and of its deities. I can understand that. And if there's a God, I think He can too.
SO why take it so personally if someone holds such a position that the Bible is worthless?
I can imagine why anyone who has gone through twi feels that way.
I don't know. Roy; perhaps the guy feels like he's been slighted by both "the man" and members of his "church" (in which case, it's a good that he has a forum to air his grievances, though unfortunately misdirected toward those who more than likely had little or nothing to do with any abuses he might have personally suffered)...or ... he's just being an idiot-troll, dropping a few drive-by posts.
In any event, I simply disagreed on a couple points you raised at the time. Even friends disagree. No big deal.
if you dont like what i say then skip my posts, BOTH OF YOU!!!
GOT THAT!?!?!
oh , and goey! my user name comes from a piece of work by a musical/social genious known as Frank Zappa. a man who his whole life lampooned religious establishments.
and if he were alive today and knew of TWI i would own the first copy of the CD that lampooned them!
Look God loves you and God has never done anything to you nor has the bible
I wrote this tread to be a doctrine tread not about how you think about God or the bible
No one hates you here and I have never believe any evil of you
About this troll thing I do not call people trolls
Now no one said you had to love God and the bible but you need to respect me and any tread I write not using them to point out what your mad at
write a tread about what your mad about
Now if you are mad at the Way then write a Tread called "Why Think Fish is mad at the Way"
I am mad at the Way too but because the Way missused the bible that does not make the bible bad
Point the fingers were they need to go at the Way and Way leaders past and present
I just want to point out how the Way missunderstood the bible and other things
A tread has a subject and you left the subject to talk evil of the bible
So I love the bible and you do not like my love for the bible then do not read my treads and write a tread about "Why you hate this or that" because I do not want to hear it
About Goey We do not see eye to eye on many things but if you ask proff we have a right to ask you for proff you are even a person
Maybe your just a bad dream or we all are Pax bad dream
The bible is just a book to most people but to me its part of the words of my God
Many here do not love my God and I respect them enough not to push my beliefs on them but I write treads to share my beliefs
Now you have a tight to think my understanding of the bible is wrong but do it with respect
All you needed to say is you do not believe in the bible or God but you begin a march against it like the Way did against other Churches
You words about the bible were = the VPW words about other Churches calling them dead Churches with no light
But I believe all Churches are living to some degree with light in the hearts of many people in each Church even the Way
You see to me the Way had me and the love in my heart which was true missused for money for ungodly people like VPW and others
You were there ! you are you bad? No! Nor was any of us!
Men use the bible to get money but the bible was not wrote to get people rich on earth but rich in heaven
Listen I have more money than I need on S. S. but I only get $732.00 a month
I got a 3 gig speed Dell computer with DVD-RW and a 1.4 gig speed laptop Dell with a DVD-RW
Both I got this year My bills are paid on time I have a big TV and a lot of nice things
not to get bigheaded
I doing great and I have need of nothing
I give to no Church but if I wanted to I could but I just help people that I run across with needs that I can help in person
My beliefs have changed over the years but I am not mad at any one anymore not even VPW
But I understand why people would get mad at him and others but I am not mad at him
But I am still mad about how he missused the bible and many people for his personal gain
Yes I mad at his actions but not at the dead man any longer
You see I understand but give me respect and I will give you respect
if you dont like what i say then skip my posts, BOTH OF YOU!!!
GOT THAT!?!?!
Hmm ... let see now. You don't seem to like what Roy posts or anything that is positive towards God or the Bible for that matter, yet you dont skip these posts. Why don't YOU take your own advice and skip them?
Since you don't skip what you don't like, then neither will I skip your's.
There is no explicit rule that the "doctrinal" section of this forum is designed only for "believers" or those who "love God" - where are you gathering this from?
As distasteful and ugly as a person's opinion or outlook may appear to you or me or anyone else, they have just as much place to post here as anyone. If we're going to start segregating the forum according to whether one's a "believer" or "non-believer" (and if so - according to whose beliefs?) - we may as well be back in twi.
:::::snipped for brevity::::::::
Danny
Hiya Dan,
LTNS (of course you ARE invisible, aren't ya?) :)-->
I've always thought of you as a peacemaker, even in the most ugliest disputes. (I think you know what I have in mind ;)--> )
Well, I made a similar statement to fish's about a year and a half ago, and while I stepped on a few toes doing it, those who know me well figured out what I meant by it. (can you say "context"? :)--> )
The scriptures, minus The Spirit, are a bunch of empty words. However I think fish's dispute goes beyond that. He not only disses the bible, but even God himself. I understand his feelings, and my take is that he doesn't know the goodness of God.
Sometimes the best thing to do with someone who really is pushing your buttons is to just give him no entertainment (some advice I should have given myself a while back, as you know what I'm referring to Dan, so I see how one can get sucked into this).
Roy and Goey, I think you both are great guys. I wouldn't let this get to you, but just ignore him for the most part. Perhaps he will either run out of steam, or maybe get himself banned.
Fish, I think someone on another thread suggested to you to go over to JWO if you need to valve off some steam. There's no holds barred there. I ought to know.
The local VFW hall in town recently acquired a Vietnam era US helicopter, which they had mounted on their front lawn in attack mode, replete with a dummy pilot inside.
Recommended Posts
def59
There was the heaven before creation and the fall of Satan
the heaven of today - one where Evil can enter to accuse the brethren in front of the lord and the flames of hell can be plainly seen.
the heaven of tomorrow (sic) one where there is no suffering, no pain and God's light illuminates us all.
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think fish
provide proof that either exists year.
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year2027
God first and last
Beloved Def59
God bless your heart
Yes there is more
1 the past heaven
2 the present heaven
3 the furture heaven
1 the past hell
2 the present hell
3 the furture hell
thanks
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Think Fish
God loves you
Now i do not have to prove anything just share what I hear and see with others
But if you want proff you go first
prove to me that your life is not another dream and you do not really live
One can have many details in a dream One can even feel pain if the dreamer dreams them to feel pain
Prove to me you are not another person dream and if you can prove this to me I will prove God to you
But you can not
Everybody must prove God in their own heart
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Goey
Provide proof that you exist fishbrain.
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Stayed Too Long
Exactly what I have been thinking lately. And the God I am finally becoming comfortable with seems to vary a little or a lot from what other people have proven in their hearts. I don't believe he is all knowing and all powerful. If he is all knowing why did he screw the job up, have to put a few on an ark to save, totally destroy everyone else he made in his image, begin the repopulation process again, and mess the whole thing up again? And instead of destroying everyone once more, he uses threats of death and eternal damnation to try and keep everyone in line?
He then realizes no one seems to be able to do all the laws and commandments he has laid out for his people, and comes to the conclusion his stipulations are just to difficult to accomplish, so he 'creates' a son who is one part god and one part human. He requires this 'son' to endure unimaginable torture, pain and death because his creation is not living up to expectations (I would have thought he could have forseen this and done things a little differently in the planning stages). Now all his weak children have to do is believe this son was raised from the dead and is their lord and all threats of damnation disappear.
If this 'father' were held to the same standards of earthly parents he would be found wanting. Should an earthly parent have knowledge that someone was going to murder his child or foresaw harmful circumstances coming his child's way, he would do all in his power to stop it. But if god knows someone is going to kill his child, or foresees an accident coming, he will allow it in the name of 'free will' choice of the perpetrator.
Can you image using that logic in front of a judge? It is inconceivable that a responsible parent would put up such a defense. But when a Christian's son or daughters body is mangled in a speeding accident, and they are forever confined to bed or wheelchair, or worse yet killed, their 'heavenly father' who is all powerful and all knowing says, "hey, free will choice, don't blame me'.
And it isn't just this god; it is most people's god in general. All are very contradictory in their claims versus their performance. If all were as powerful as they claim none of their people would be harmed or ever get sick.
There are chance reports of miracle healings which seem attributable to miracles, but most are due to science and medicine. For example, the only reason woman do not die in child birth today is because of surgery. If god was responsible for it a 100 years ago none would have died then.
Believing in this all powerful and all knowing god requires way to much blind faith and turning your head when he does not deliver on his promises.
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lindyhopper
Amen to that, STL.
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Tom Strange
Goey, why so mean? Is this not a forum for discussion?
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Goey
Tom,
First, fish, does not really want proof. And knows full well that *proof* of the existence of heaven/hell cannot be given to his/her satisfacion not matter how it is presented.
He/she simply want to spew anti-god, anti-bible stuff in this discussion forum.
Didn't you read wher he/she proudly declared that he/she wiped his a$$ with pages from his Bible? I think it's a safe bet that that was posted to intentionally offend folks here.
Here is the quote:
The person is not here to discuss - he/she is here simply to antagonize and offend.
I simply answered one rhetorical question with another one.And there was a point ... My point being that depending upon one's philosophical/religious bias that niether can be "proved".
Considering fish's apparent bias, and the playing field he/she has establsished, I think my question was well within bounds.
Now if your protest to my "meanness" is in referrence to my use of "fishbrain", then I will point out that it is simply a take off of "thinkfish", the brain being the organ we think with (well, some of us anyway)
Is that being mean? I don't think so.
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Tom Strange
Goey, I didn't see that other post (I assume in another thread)... and in that case... never mind, I withdraw the question...
carry on with the plan of the day...
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lindyhopper
Well, maybe fishy ran out of toilet paper and the pages of his bible were "easy to be entreated".
I mean in spite of having the brain of a fish, he/she has a point....as do you. So why not discuss this a little, even though we've been down that road before, maybe there is something to it.
While neither seem to be able to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, all of us here in non-cyber-existence see a post from think fish and as of yet no post directly from hevean or hell. All things could be possible in the realm of unprovable existence and therefore "....ing on the epistles" could in fact be the appropriate response. Your offense is not defense...neither is anything else seeing that no claim is at all provable in an absolute sense.
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
God bless you all
Ok I read the reply Think Fish wrote and Goey is right the person is out for a fight the way he answer was uncalled for
Goey did the right thing but he was not the first I even REPORTED fish a thing I do not like to do and aswer him about the same way
Hell he knows this is doctrine and about the bible and that kind of written is pointless at us because we love God
Maybe Pax can make him or her a non bible doctrine area were doctrines of fish can be taught
Maybe how to swin like a fish or eat like a fish can be taught or whatever
Just my two cents
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
PS sorry I do not have time to answer each one of you one on one
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TheInvisibleDan
I strongly disagree.
There is no explicit rule that the "doctrinal" section of this forum is designed only for "believers" or those who "love God" - where are you gathering this from?
As distasteful and ugly as a person's opinion or outlook may appear to you or me or anyone else, they have just as much place to post here as anyone. If we're going to start segregating the forum according to whether one's a "believer" or "non-believer" (and if so - according to whose beliefs?) - we may as well be back in twi.
From my personal standpoint, I do not find it difficult at all to understand why some people who had undergone the extreme bs of the old gigantic cult should feel the way that they do. Yes, some people (a number who have suffered far more than myself and others) interpret their horrendous experiences as due to failure on part of the Bible and of its deities. I can understand that. And if there's a God, I think He can too.
SO why take it so personally if someone holds such a position that the Bible is worthless?
I can imagine why anyone who has gone through twi feels that way.
Can you?
Danny
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year2027
God first and last
Beloved The Invisible Dan
God bless your heart
I understand being mad at God because a person is flesh
And I am flesh too
I did not begin this fight but fish did
But yes I was wrong to buy into it
But the kind of talk he was doing was uncalled for
You see why attacked believers because you are mad at what a man's church did
But I have been wrong before and will be wrong again
that all
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TheInvisibleDan
I don't know. Roy; perhaps the guy feels like he's been slighted by both "the man" and members of his "church" (in which case, it's a good that he has a forum to air his grievances, though unfortunately misdirected toward those who more than likely had little or nothing to do with any abuses he might have personally suffered)...or ... he's just being an idiot-troll, dropping a few drive-by posts.
In any event, I simply disagreed on a couple points you raised at the time. Even friends disagree. No big deal.
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year2027
God first and last
Beloved TheInvisibleDan
God bless your heart
Yes I was hard and I am not sure some of my words were right too but I just leave it there
I hope Think Fish keep posting but tones down a little
thanks
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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think fish
roy, goey.
i assure you both.
i am not a troll. i am an ex wafer and wow.
if you dont like what i say then skip my posts, BOTH OF YOU!!!
GOT THAT!?!?!
oh , and goey! my user name comes from a piece of work by a musical/social genious known as Frank Zappa. a man who his whole life lampooned religious establishments.
and if he were alive today and knew of TWI i would own the first copy of the CD that lampooned them!
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year2027
God first and last
Beloved Think Fish
Look God loves you and God has never done anything to you nor has the bible
I wrote this tread to be a doctrine tread not about how you think about God or the bible
No one hates you here and I have never believe any evil of you
About this troll thing I do not call people trolls
Now no one said you had to love God and the bible but you need to respect me and any tread I write not using them to point out what your mad at
write a tread about what your mad about
Now if you are mad at the Way then write a Tread called "Why Think Fish is mad at the Way"
I am mad at the Way too but because the Way missused the bible that does not make the bible bad
Point the fingers were they need to go at the Way and Way leaders past and present
I just want to point out how the Way missunderstood the bible and other things
A tread has a subject and you left the subject to talk evil of the bible
So I love the bible and you do not like my love for the bible then do not read my treads and write a tread about "Why you hate this or that" because I do not want to hear it
About Goey We do not see eye to eye on many things but if you ask proff we have a right to ask you for proff you are even a person
Maybe your just a bad dream or we all are Pax bad dream
The bible is just a book to most people but to me its part of the words of my God
Many here do not love my God and I respect them enough not to push my beliefs on them but I write treads to share my beliefs
Now you have a tight to think my understanding of the bible is wrong but do it with respect
All you needed to say is you do not believe in the bible or God but you begin a march against it like the Way did against other Churches
You words about the bible were = the VPW words about other Churches calling them dead Churches with no light
But I believe all Churches are living to some degree with light in the hearts of many people in each Church even the Way
You see to me the Way had me and the love in my heart which was true missused for money for ungodly people like VPW and others
You were there ! you are you bad? No! Nor was any of us!
Men use the bible to get money but the bible was not wrote to get people rich on earth but rich in heaven
Listen I have more money than I need on S. S. but I only get $732.00 a month
I got a 3 gig speed Dell computer with DVD-RW and a 1.4 gig speed laptop Dell with a DVD-RW
Both I got this year My bills are paid on time I have a big TV and a lot of nice things
not to get bigheaded
I doing great and I have need of nothing
I give to no Church but if I wanted to I could but I just help people that I run across with needs that I can help in person
My beliefs have changed over the years but I am not mad at any one anymore not even VPW
But I understand why people would get mad at him and others but I am not mad at him
But I am still mad about how he missused the bible and many people for his personal gain
Yes I mad at his actions but not at the dead man any longer
You see I understand but give me respect and I will give you respect
that all I know to say
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Goey
Posted by thinkfish:
Hmm ... let see now. You don't seem to like what Roy posts or anything that is positive towards God or the Bible for that matter, yet you dont skip these posts. Why don't YOU take your own advice and skip them?
Since you don't skip what you don't like, then neither will I skip your's.
GOT THAT!?!?
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year2027
God first and last
Beloved Goey
God loves your big heart
thankyou my friend
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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CKnapp3
Hiya Dan,
LTNS (of course you ARE invisible, aren't ya?)
:)-->
I've always thought of you as a peacemaker, even in the most ugliest disputes. (I think you know what I have in mind
;)--> )
Well, I made a similar statement to fish's about a year and a half ago, and while I stepped on a few toes doing it, those who know me well figured out what I meant by it. (can you say "context"?
:)--> )
The scriptures, minus The Spirit, are a bunch of empty words. However I think fish's dispute goes beyond that. He not only disses the bible, but even God himself. I understand his feelings, and my take is that he doesn't know the goodness of God.
Sometimes the best thing to do with someone who really is pushing your buttons is to just give him no entertainment (some advice I should have given myself a while back, as you know what I'm referring to Dan, so I see how one can get sucked into this).
Roy and Goey, I think you both are great guys. I wouldn't let this get to you, but just ignore him for the most part. Perhaps he will either run out of steam, or maybe get himself banned.
Fish, I think someone on another thread suggested to you to go over to JWO if you need to valve off some steam. There's no holds barred there. I ought to know.
Edited by CKnapp3Link to comment
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TheInvisibleDan
Nice to see ya, Chuck.
The local VFW hall in town recently acquired a Vietnam era US helicopter, which they had mounted on their front lawn in attack mode, replete with a dummy pilot inside.
The name of the helicopter?
The "Peacemaker".
Matthew 5 is kind of like that.
It's the "Sermon on the Mount"
but it's "mounted" in a rather peculiar way.
Danny
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