Thank you, outofdafog. You're right, there were many good people who went into the Corps because they wanted to help others. I know there were some jerks in the Corps, but it's heartwarming to me that you recognize the heart that so many had.
Your words are very sweet, and very appreciated. There's a lot of Corps bashing that goes on around here, and sometimes it's hard to try to explain that we weren't all domineering buttheads. Thanks again.
Nice touch about the corps. I was corps and consider myself a believer just like you were. I just wish the twi could see it. We each had our place in the little twi tree. No corps was or is more important than you were. When I say you.
I don't mean just you. "Joe Believer" got squashed in twi so did corps. It was heartless and a witch hunt that had no rhyme or reason. You stand as tall in Gods eyes as the highest ranking way corps member that just wanted to serve God with a pure heart.
You believed you were serving God and God knows your heart. That is what is really important. He knows your heart and what it was that you felt that you had commited your life to. And you lived your lives in service....
outtadofog......I, too, appreciate your kind words.
Your heartfelt sentiment is like medicine to my soul. :)-->
Although I went WOW and went to all the "ROCKS" and all the classes and all the fellowships etc. etc. I am only now truly appreciating what you the "WAY CORPS" did. The endless hours of service to others, the lack of physical comfort and the endless hours of sitting in meetings. I know that the Way is a cult NOW. And even though we were all part of this cult, that does not take away the fact that you guys had the "HEART" to serve God in an unbelieveably commited way.
outadafog -- Thank you for saying (so eloquently) what all of us non-corps should have said a long time ago. I "second" the thanks. :)-->
One of the coolest things about the Rock was the cooprative nature of it. There was a large population of people wandering around enjoying themselves that also had thier own little mini-job. Even if it was just one hour for one of the days, many people corps and non-corp alike helped things run smoothly. The corps did/does bare the brunt of the work though.
you really know you've been working hard when you can go to the men's Corps Tent, otherwise known as the Men's Snore Tents, and actaully catch a wink. :D-->
This thread ties together with what I was trying to say on the thread about "ministering"...So many people who were involved, had good hearts and good intentions.
Had folks not believed they were serving God, they wouldn't have put up with twi's crap. That's what makes it so sad...Not only did twi abuse people...they abused the very people who had stepped forward to believe and serve God.
I think that many folks here at GS have realized that you don't need a title, a nametag, or an organization in order to live a life of caring and serving others, that is in their hearts. To survive the twi experience...and to rise above the bitterness and hurtfulness of it all...and to continue on that quest to live a Christian life.
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"...Dylan
I've said it before. The people who blessed me the most were corps and the people who ....ed me off the most were corps. Corps were in a position to have the most impact. They watched each other's back, too; us non corps all knew don't mess with corps or you'll be in the BC's dog house in a second.
I think the atmosphere in the whole ministry changed drastically at some point. There's been talk on GSC how the later corps were somehow not as good quality as the earlier corps. I don't think there's any difference in what people expected who entered the corps, I just think the change in the atmosphere made it tougher on the later corps to be the corps ideal.
One of Roseanne Barr's funnier routines IMO was when she said how being a parent was special because you could really mess your kids up for life by saying things like "Didn't I tell you not to talk with your mouth full? ANSWER ME!" I think the corps eventually got a mixed message like that. "Don't you want to be your best for God? Don't you want to love people the way GOD wants them to be loved? Well get busy confronting them and reproving them for every little thing and going through their dresser drawers and looking for objects of "evil" and making them fill out those schedule things, etc."
Harry, ex, and other.....it makes me think again.....What great good could have been accomplished, had our efforts to love people and serve God been channeled through a legitimate cause?
All of that energy, prayers, money could have made an impact on this world....had it not been co-opted by men serving their own bellies.
I agree some of the kindest, most caring , coolest people I have ever met in my life were corpes.... the most evil people I have ever had the misfortune to meet have been corpes as well.......go figure
It ....es me off that our genuine efforts to serve God, our hearfelt efforts to help people, our money and our youth, and a significant chunk of our lives were squandered by those who claimed to know what God wanted/needed.
Since my time with the ministry spanned from 1975-1999 I guess I got to see both the earlier corps and the later corps. There was a definite difference.
But as someone said the atmosphere between TWI1 and TWI2 were significantly different. Yet there were many TWI2 corps who were absolutely as commited as the TIW1 - and for the most part have left the ministry. That tells me their hearts saw the corruption amongst the leadership and chose or were asked to leave. (Asked to leave because they dared question the almighty BOD).
That was real nice of you. I know that I went into the Corps only to be a better servant of God and to His people.
It's just too bad that what I call "the people factor" got in the way and screwed things up. And believe me, I was not exempt from that influence either. But I tried to be honest most of the time.
But, I suppose that factor will continue to screw everything in this world up until God sets things straight one day...
I agree with fog's sentiments, and must say that I knew several people who were genuinely committed and loving, and went into the corps for unselfish reasons. Many of them even came out unscathed.
For myself, what turned me off was the constant reinforcement that if you were not corps you didn't matter. Martindale used to say if you weren't corps, he wasn't interested in talking to you. It became an enormous class distinction that often alienated people.
It has always galled me however that the way became so cavalier about cutting off those people who made such enormous committments to them. After voluntarily going through a program where your life was not your own, you would think that they would have honored that for no other reason than it's incredible that anyone would even do that. The martindale loyalty oath was the worst, but the threat of being dropped from the corps always seemed to loom like a shadow over the whole thing.
There were a lot of really decent folks who were persuaded that if they loved God, that the best way to serve him was to learn more about him in the corpes, Lot of good hearted folks tried to serve God but were actually hardened by their training. Many managed to retain their decency and honor.
Gee Hiway, ole martindale didn`t want to talk to *non corpes types* weren`t worth his time or attention for sure....But hey, that sure never stopped the money from being good enough to sponsor those who were worthey, our homes from being good enough to host fellowships and run their classes in, to have a place for those anointed ones to stay in during light beares and relocation....sheeshe, I wonder what he would have done if everyone HAD been corpes and no one to support them, or coordinate when they completed the program.
Damn, decades of selfless Christian service, and we were still unworthey to talk to the great one.
As I remember martindale's rationale, it was that he only had 24 hours in a day and he wasn't going to 'waste' them interacting with those who were 'not committed'.
It's really the same in the mega corporation I work for now. The executives are trained to distance themselves from anyone below a certain level. Except the way wasn't supposed to operate like a corporation was it? Uh ,forget I said that.
Yeah I know, untill we were corpes, we were considered a *waste* of time. He passed this attitude on to others without a doubt.....
Was just observing how short sighted that was of of him.
Those who were not in the corpes were the back bone of the ministry, bringing friends and family to the classes, taking more classes, using our resources to keep the corpes running, the food on the tables and the roofs over the *worthey* ones heads.
They couldn`t have had a corpes without wonderfull folks supporting them......
Yet he didn`t have the time to *waste* on them.
What an arrogant pos.
So, you folks who escaped unscathed, those of you who were a blessing to the people you ministered to, the true way corps (I will not misspell the name in this case). In your opinion, did your training facillitate your ability to minister to folks?
What I am asking I guess is, were you a better minister after completring the program....or were you ministering to people before you ever went in?
Is this why there was such discrepancies in the final result of completion of the program?
When I read about the burdens placed on your shoulders, the obsticals overcome, the prejudices that they attempted to instill.....that you folks could remain tender and caring, maintain your integrety....is even more extrordinary.
I express my apreciation as well for your efforts.
What I am asking I guess is, were you a better minister after completring the program....or were you ministering to people before you ever went in?
As many here know.....I consider my corps "training" as one that was laced with indoctrination. In many ways, I was ministering to people before going it......giving and growing without compulsion. Sure, there were a few things that had helped in the broad spectrum of ministering to others. Of course, things like public speaking ability can be utilized in a multitude of ways, secular avenues as well.
But......I think that most of the stuff could have been grasped in a three-month program, kind of a summer school setup type of thing. But then.........the inDOCTRINEaction wouldn't have worked very well.
I know that before I went in, my heart was purer, and I had far less fear of ministering to people. I prayed for my daddy who then had a miracle of healing from a massive heart attack, shortly after I had PFAL. I had not had the advanced class, but, I knew I had "Christ in me the Hope Of Glowry!" and I just "ignorantly" walked into that critical care unit, ignored the doctors who tried to kick me out, and ministered to my daddy. I prayed for lots of people before I went into the Corps, and saw many signs miracles and wonders, and had no fear of counseling and trying to help people with the Word before I went in.
After the training, I was much better at organization, public speaking, and had a much better work ethic, all of which are things useful in a genuine effort to minister to God's People, but I do think that I lost the edge when it came to being "just plain simple" with people, and I was caught up in carnal thoughts such as "worrying about whether or not I was "good enough as Corps".
For instance, some of my Corps brothers went on to being limb dudes, or outreach city WOW coordinators, while I was just a measely twig area coordinator with only one apprentice Corps person to work with. My second year on the field after Corps graduation, in a Corps Household Newsletter, one brother from the Tenth had a letter in there about all of the responsibilities that he had given to his fifteen or so apprentice Corps. He had them all on a very detailed program of limb assistance, and etc. Instead of reading this and being proud of him or whatever,I felt like a loser, for, all I had done with my one app Corps dude was go salmon fishing and drink beer with him. I did do one good thing for him though. I talked him out of marrying Martindales sister...hah!
I think I got somewhat tainted by the "hierarchy bug", but really, I look at that as my fault, for not keeping my eyes on the Lord..
And so, my answer would be, "Yes", and..."No".
I will say that for everyday life, I learned many many very good lessons in life, when it comes to the work ethic, organization, the "never say die" attitude when it comes to life's obstacles, and I am very very good at "preaching to trees!" :)-->
Very honestly, I am very glad for having been in the Tenth Corps, and I would never trade that experience for anything. For me it was very very good, and I still have friends to this day who were in the areas of my responsibility back in the day who still love me and remember with fondness those days when we all did the ministry thing together. Two of them, a married couple are right here in this town where I live, and they were our best man and my wife's matron of honor when we were married. Last night we all had steaks and locally caught spot prawns for dinner at their house with about fifteen other people who had not been around during way daze. It was a fine dinner party complete with beer, wine, and some really good liquer...
I was told it was training for a lifetime of Christian Service so the whole time I was in the corps I believed that. More than once I am sure I was a corps nazi and in my defense I was trying to mimic those who taught me. For years I have regreted those times but think I am all the better for it now in that I know what not to do.
I work with many different people in my job (I am a mountain guide) and get to see them at their best and their worst. Its nice to know that I have enough knowledge of the Word to help them in learning how to overcome fears and how to put trust in God. I am usually with someone for at least five days at a time so it gives me a chance to really minister to someone. I don't think I would be as effective without the corps training. I will always be thankful for how God had me learn to be the person I am thru the corps.
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excathedra
wow foggie that is really really sweet of you
i've known many people who went in the corps program because they were such good people
they used to say, "the greater the leader, the greater the servant" and i knew people like that (still do)
but it's heartbreaking that it was more like, the greater the commitment, the greater the humilitation.....
is it true that whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger ?
;)-->
thanks again. luv u
ps. i have to admit, when i saw your title, i was thinking, "yeah, i had rocks in my head" then you made me feel good, thanks again
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Linda Z
Thank you, outofdafog. You're right, there were many good people who went into the Corps because they wanted to help others. I know there were some jerks in the Corps, but it's heartwarming to me that you recognize the heart that so many had.
Your words are very sweet, and very appreciated. There's a lot of Corps bashing that goes on around here, and sometimes it's hard to try to explain that we weren't all domineering buttheads. Thanks again.
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gladtobeout
Fog
That was real thoughtful for you to say.
Have a great day
:)-->
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justloafing
outofdafog, Are you GOD
:)-->
Nice touch about the corps. I was corps and consider myself a believer just like you were. I just wish the twi could see it. We each had our place in the little twi tree. No corps was or is more important than you were. When I say you.
I don't mean just you. "Joe Believer" got squashed in twi so did corps. It was heartless and a witch hunt that had no rhyme or reason. You stand as tall in Gods eyes as the highest ranking way corps member that just wanted to serve God with a pure heart.
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skyrider
outtadofog......I, too, appreciate your kind words.
Your heartfelt sentiment is like medicine to my soul.
:)-->
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dmiller
outadafog -- Thank you for saying (so eloquently) what all of us non-corps should have said a long time ago. I "second" the thanks.
:)-->
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excathedra
too true loaf
i never wanted to be a lord.... i felt i wanted to serve him
at times it has sucked being hated for it
love you all. no nametags in heaven eh ? thank god
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lindyhopper
Yes thanks and your welcome.
One of the coolest things about the Rock was the cooprative nature of it. There was a large population of people wandering around enjoying themselves that also had thier own little mini-job. Even if it was just one hour for one of the days, many people corps and non-corp alike helped things run smoothly. The corps did/does bare the brunt of the work though.
I've got two words for ya....Honey Wagon.
Mmmmmm MMMMM!
someone had to do it I guess.
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lindyhopper
you really know you've been working hard when you can go to the men's Corps Tent, otherwise known as the Men's Snore Tents, and actaully catch a wink.
:D-->
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ex10
out
Thanks for the kindness of your words. It's such a nice reminder to realize that some of us are the same people we were, way back then.
;)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
This thread ties together with what I was trying to say on the thread about "ministering"...So many people who were involved, had good hearts and good intentions.
Had folks not believed they were serving God, they wouldn't have put up with twi's crap. That's what makes it so sad...Not only did twi abuse people...they abused the very people who had stepped forward to believe and serve God.
I think that many folks here at GS have realized that you don't need a title, a nametag, or an organization in order to live a life of caring and serving others, that is in their hearts. To survive the twi experience...and to rise above the bitterness and hurtfulness of it all...and to continue on that quest to live a Christian life.
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"...Dylan
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johniam
I've said it before. The people who blessed me the most were corps and the people who ....ed me off the most were corps. Corps were in a position to have the most impact. They watched each other's back, too; us non corps all knew don't mess with corps or you'll be in the BC's dog house in a second.
I think the atmosphere in the whole ministry changed drastically at some point. There's been talk on GSC how the later corps were somehow not as good quality as the earlier corps. I don't think there's any difference in what people expected who entered the corps, I just think the change in the atmosphere made it tougher on the later corps to be the corps ideal.
One of Roseanne Barr's funnier routines IMO was when she said how being a parent was special because you could really mess your kids up for life by saying things like "Didn't I tell you not to talk with your mouth full? ANSWER ME!" I think the corps eventually got a mixed message like that. "Don't you want to be your best for God? Don't you want to love people the way GOD wants them to be loved? Well get busy confronting them and reproving them for every little thing and going through their dresser drawers and looking for objects of "evil" and making them fill out those schedule things, etc."
That would definitely make it tough.
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rascal
Harry, ex, and other.....it makes me think again.....What great good could have been accomplished, had our efforts to love people and serve God been channeled through a legitimate cause?
All of that energy, prayers, money could have made an impact on this world....had it not been co-opted by men serving their own bellies.
I agree some of the kindest, most caring , coolest people I have ever met in my life were corpes.... the most evil people I have ever had the misfortune to meet have been corpes as well.......go figure
It ....es me off that our genuine efforts to serve God, our hearfelt efforts to help people, our money and our youth, and a significant chunk of our lives were squandered by those who claimed to know what God wanted/needed.
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outofdafog
yet rascal............
Think of all the people that you did bless.
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outofdafog
Since my time with the ministry spanned from 1975-1999 I guess I got to see both the earlier corps and the later corps. There was a definite difference.
But as someone said the atmosphere between TWI1 and TWI2 were significantly different. Yet there were many TWI2 corps who were absolutely as commited as the TIW1 - and for the most part have left the ministry. That tells me their hearts saw the corruption amongst the leadership and chose or were asked to leave. (Asked to leave because they dared question the almighty BOD).
Anyways, you guys still rock..........
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J0nny Ling0
Thank you Outofdafog,
That was real nice of you. I know that I went into the Corps only to be a better servant of God and to His people.
It's just too bad that what I call "the people factor" got in the way and screwed things up. And believe me, I was not exempt from that influence either. But I tried to be honest most of the time.
But, I suppose that factor will continue to screw everything in this world up until God sets things straight one day...
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smitty
Thank you good Sir for your kind words to corps. A lifetime of service that hasn't stopped for many, only lived in another way!
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hiway29
I agree with fog's sentiments, and must say that I knew several people who were genuinely committed and loving, and went into the corps for unselfish reasons. Many of them even came out unscathed.
For myself, what turned me off was the constant reinforcement that if you were not corps you didn't matter. Martindale used to say if you weren't corps, he wasn't interested in talking to you. It became an enormous class distinction that often alienated people.
It has always galled me however that the way became so cavalier about cutting off those people who made such enormous committments to them. After voluntarily going through a program where your life was not your own, you would think that they would have honored that for no other reason than it's incredible that anyone would even do that. The martindale loyalty oath was the worst, but the threat of being dropped from the corps always seemed to loom like a shadow over the whole thing.
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rascal
There were a lot of really decent folks who were persuaded that if they loved God, that the best way to serve him was to learn more about him in the corpes, Lot of good hearted folks tried to serve God but were actually hardened by their training. Many managed to retain their decency and honor.
Gee Hiway, ole martindale didn`t want to talk to *non corpes types* weren`t worth his time or attention for sure....But hey, that sure never stopped the money from being good enough to sponsor those who were worthey, our homes from being good enough to host fellowships and run their classes in, to have a place for those anointed ones to stay in during light beares and relocation....sheeshe, I wonder what he would have done if everyone HAD been corpes and no one to support them, or coordinate when they completed the program.
Damn, decades of selfless Christian service, and we were still unworthey to talk to the great one.
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hiway29
As I remember martindale's rationale, it was that he only had 24 hours in a day and he wasn't going to 'waste' them interacting with those who were 'not committed'.
It's really the same in the mega corporation I work for now. The executives are trained to distance themselves from anyone below a certain level. Except the way wasn't supposed to operate like a corporation was it? Uh ,forget I said that.
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rascal
Yeah I know, untill we were corpes, we were considered a *waste* of time. He passed this attitude on to others without a doubt.....
Was just observing how short sighted that was of of him.
Those who were not in the corpes were the back bone of the ministry, bringing friends and family to the classes, taking more classes, using our resources to keep the corpes running, the food on the tables and the roofs over the *worthey* ones heads.
They couldn`t have had a corpes without wonderfull folks supporting them......
Yet he didn`t have the time to *waste* on them.
What an arrogant pos.
So, you folks who escaped unscathed, those of you who were a blessing to the people you ministered to, the true way corps (I will not misspell the name in this case). In your opinion, did your training facillitate your ability to minister to folks?
What I am asking I guess is, were you a better minister after completring the program....or were you ministering to people before you ever went in?
Is this why there was such discrepancies in the final result of completion of the program?
When I read about the burdens placed on your shoulders, the obsticals overcome, the prejudices that they attempted to instill.....that you folks could remain tender and caring, maintain your integrety....is even more extrordinary.
I express my apreciation as well for your efforts.
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skyrider
As many here know.....I consider my corps "training" as one that was laced with indoctrination. In many ways, I was ministering to people before going it......giving and growing without compulsion. Sure, there were a few things that had helped in the broad spectrum of ministering to others. Of course, things like public speaking ability can be utilized in a multitude of ways, secular avenues as well.
But......I think that most of the stuff could have been grasped in a three-month program, kind of a summer school setup type of thing. But then.........the inDOCTRINEaction wouldn't have worked very well.
Isn't that right, twi?
:P-->
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know Rascal, that's a great question.
I know that before I went in, my heart was purer, and I had far less fear of ministering to people. I prayed for my daddy who then had a miracle of healing from a massive heart attack, shortly after I had PFAL. I had not had the advanced class, but, I knew I had "Christ in me the Hope Of Glowry!" and I just "ignorantly" walked into that critical care unit, ignored the doctors who tried to kick me out, and ministered to my daddy. I prayed for lots of people before I went into the Corps, and saw many signs miracles and wonders, and had no fear of counseling and trying to help people with the Word before I went in.
After the training, I was much better at organization, public speaking, and had a much better work ethic, all of which are things useful in a genuine effort to minister to God's People, but I do think that I lost the edge when it came to being "just plain simple" with people, and I was caught up in carnal thoughts such as "worrying about whether or not I was "good enough as Corps".
For instance, some of my Corps brothers went on to being limb dudes, or outreach city WOW coordinators, while I was just a measely twig area coordinator with only one apprentice Corps person to work with. My second year on the field after Corps graduation, in a Corps Household Newsletter, one brother from the Tenth had a letter in there about all of the responsibilities that he had given to his fifteen or so apprentice Corps. He had them all on a very detailed program of limb assistance, and etc. Instead of reading this and being proud of him or whatever,I felt like a loser, for, all I had done with my one app Corps dude was go salmon fishing and drink beer with him. I did do one good thing for him though. I talked him out of marrying Martindales sister...hah!
I think I got somewhat tainted by the "hierarchy bug", but really, I look at that as my fault, for not keeping my eyes on the Lord..
And so, my answer would be, "Yes", and..."No".
I will say that for everyday life, I learned many many very good lessons in life, when it comes to the work ethic, organization, the "never say die" attitude when it comes to life's obstacles, and I am very very good at "preaching to trees!"
:)-->
Very honestly, I am very glad for having been in the Tenth Corps, and I would never trade that experience for anything. For me it was very very good, and I still have friends to this day who were in the areas of my responsibility back in the day who still love me and remember with fondness those days when we all did the ministry thing together. Two of them, a married couple are right here in this town where I live, and they were our best man and my wife's matron of honor when we were married. Last night we all had steaks and locally caught spot prawns for dinner at their house with about fifteen other people who had not been around during way daze. It was a fine dinner party complete with beer, wine, and some really good liquer...
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Out There
I was told it was training for a lifetime of Christian Service so the whole time I was in the corps I believed that. More than once I am sure I was a corps nazi and in my defense I was trying to mimic those who taught me. For years I have regreted those times but think I am all the better for it now in that I know what not to do.
I work with many different people in my job (I am a mountain guide) and get to see them at their best and their worst. Its nice to know that I have enough knowledge of the Word to help them in learning how to overcome fears and how to put trust in God. I am usually with someone for at least five days at a time so it gives me a chance to really minister to someone. I don't think I would be as effective without the corps training. I will always be thankful for how God had me learn to be the person I am thru the corps.
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