To be honest, I would be most happy to consider Belle my friend. Discussing our similar experiences together has done more for me these last few weeks than anything in the last 3 years. It's hard to express. Hopefully I've been able to return the same to Belle.
Belle, I don't care if you're not all sugar and spice. You're something special.
Here's a question for you. The Bible allows for divorce in situations of adultery and fornication, right? So ... what is fornication? I remember some of what TWI taught about this. But has anyone learned anything more accurate since then? And another thing ... do TWI couples who divorce tend to claim that each other is "possessed"? I am aware of this happening in more than one break-up. -Pat
I'm officially possessed. I'm hosting a bevy of devil spirits. It's true; just ask anyone in my area. I think it was a requirement for my divorce. It certainly wasn't because of anything my ex did or didn't do.
I could tell y'all which ones I KNOW they say I have, but I don't want to tarnish my image anymore than I have by letting y'all know that I am, indeed, possessed. :o-->
After hearing of all the engagements and weddings of people that have met here...
I wonder if there is hope for me?
Awwww, Zshot....We're just kidding around. Much as I would LOVE to find that someone special, I still haven't either. Don't give up hope, though! Look at Oak, his woman didn't come from here. ArkieRon's woman didn't come from here. There's hope for us yet, my friend!
"Here's a question for you. The Bible allows for divorce in situations of adultery and fornication, right? So ... what is fornication?"
Like saying tan and light-brown, same thing just two different words.
Adultery being someone fornicating someone else' wife, or daughter [any female that you have not paid for].
The reason for divorce in the Old Testament was:
Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
See? it does not say adultery and fornication. It was commonly taught by leaders, both then and now that it means cases of adultery [meaning that the wife had sex with someone other than her husband]. Anytime you mess with that which belongs to another, you are in the wrong. In the case of a female not your wife, you owed her father or husband a price, if they did not stone you first.
...and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Galen, what is your definition of "uncleanness", then? Are you saying it IS or ISN'T sexually related?
BTW, I'm glad that I was given the bill of divorcement but got to stay in the house! :D-->
A comic I heard once said, "Marriage? Why would I want to get married? If I ever feel like getting married, I'll cut out all the middle steps, find some woman I hate, and give her a house!"
Of course, now that I'm so happily married, statements like these no longer carry any emotional weight for me.
"...and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house."
"Galen, what is your definition of "uncleanness", then? Are you saying it IS or ISN'T sexually related? "
No doubt you have heard this many many times, from while within TWI, but I have no difinition for it. Only the Bible can define it.
I have not done an exhaustive study of "uncleanness" lately. From what I do recall [we did do a study on it once] it had to do with 'kosher'. It most certainly was NOT 'dirtiness'. I seem to think it was like anything not close to G-d, or following His Will.
Mind you, if you really wanted to know for sure you should look it up. But you know that.
It is amazing how so many jump onto the same bandwagon in these issues, whatever a bible dictionary says... Kind of like the 'Harlot' word. Anything to drag down the integrity of G-d.
:-)
"BTW, I'm glad that I was given the bill of divorcement but got to stay in the house!"
Actually, according to Young's, there is one usage of the Hebrew "ervath dabar" which means an unclean thing or matter. The one time is right there in Deuteronomy 24:1.
My Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies" says it is:
"Chiefly spoken of Levitical uncleanness, both of persons and animals.... Unclean and impure in a Levitical and moral sense. It speaks the greatest pollution, the sordid and filthiness of habit, the gore of blood, the muddiness or water, whatsoever is loathsome or unlovely, noisome or unsightly, all these meet in and make up the meaning of this word. It implies unsuitableness or contriety to communion with him that is holy."
The NIV & some other english version translate it "something indecent" or "some indecency" and the NASB cross references it to Numbers 5:12 which says:
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
V:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, "
Generally speaking, it seems like when the Bible speaks of uncleanness in the context of a marriage, it's speaking of sexuality - adultry. Adultry certainly defiles the purpetrator, makin gthem "unclean" in God's eyes concerning the marrage. I'd say that the uncleanness of Deut 24:1 could be stated as meaning, in modern day English, "including, but not limited to sexually...."
I'm sure it also included spiritual uncleanness. which would include possession (TRUE possession, not the TWI version; "I don't like you or what you've said or done, so YOU are possessed!").
It ALSO includes immoral uncleanness which all of the above mentioned abuses would certainly fall under.
In other words... NO. God would NOT have a spouse to stay in a morally abusive realtionship, even if it is a marriage. Um... ah, is ANY abuse moral? I think NOT.
In fact, what God said, even though He HATES divorce he said, "If you find your spouse to be morally unclean, in ANY way, write up the divorce papers, put them right in their hand and put THEM out of the house.
Fast forward to 1 Corinthians 7 where "unbelieving" and "believeth not" is simply "apistos" or UN-faithful, unfaithful to GOD that is.... one who does not believe (pistis) God - - with their actions or way of life. That is different than a believer who, like all others, sins (or is unfaithful) at times.
God hates divorce because of the damage it does to all involved. He loves US, He would not, nor did He ever, instruct us to submit to a morally abusive situation. Most certainly when it comes to His institution of marriage, which unites two individuals the SAME way as He unites Christ (the bridegroom) with us ALL, (his bride) the body of Christ.
God originally told people they could divorce for "uncleanness" which covered a gamut of moral behavior. The Pharasees KNEW the law listed above and (Matt 19:3) tryed to tempt Jesus saying, "... can you divorce "for EVERY cause??? Huh? Huh? ? ? ?"
"No." said Jesus, "Not EVERY cause, In all of your "reading" haven't you read that if a man & woman have done it God's way (by cleaving unto his wife), they are no longer two people, but ONE person that GOD has made ONE FLESH. You CAN'T split them up, because GOD, himself, put them together."
Pharasees then say:
"OK, smarty pants, know it all.... WHY then did MOSES (who REALLY knew God) command people to server her with the Divorce papers & put the b!$@h out???"
Jesus:
"Moses allowed you to put your wives away because your hearts were corrupted and hardened (you weren't cleaving unto your wives you were abusing each other!) It wasn't like that in the beginning because people were closer to GOD!"
"I'm telling you now, If you just kick your spouse out for any old reason but fornication, you're STILL married to them! Marry sombody else (like you guys do all the time) and YOU commit ADULTRY!"
What you see is a progression from "the beginning" when basically everyone was "a believer" to where people fell away from a God & hardened their hearts to him in a God-based society, all the way to a time when people who were ALREADY married became converts, coming BACK to God.
There were times in the first centuries, as there are today, when only one spouse converts to the faith and the other is UN-faithful. God said, "You can't just leave 'em because of THAT, how do YOU know you won't save THEM?"
"BUT. If the un-faith-full one wants to leave YOU, (because of your faith) you're free to let them go, DON'T fight with them, let 'em GO! God called you to peace, remember?"
God also told us in James that faith without the corresponding works (life-style) is DEAD. He also told us that anyone who doesn't behave in a loving manner towards his brother and says he's a believer is LIAR, and the truth does NOT live in him. How much MORE does that refer to a husband, whom God cammands to LOVE his wife as he does his own body - - and a wife who is commanded to just "respond accordingly" to the love from her husband (respond accordingly = submit). He also told us NOT to marry unbelievers IF we're already a believer because we're asking for a difficult situation.
If your husband is UN-faithful to loving you as he loves himself, he places himself in the UNCLEAN category from Deuteronomy - you can serve 'em & put 'em out. A wife found morally unclean... you can write the papers, give 'em to her & then give HER the boot.
God made provision for us in light of where culture has come. We have the right to fight for our marriages... IF we find the spouse "clean," otherwise we can get rid of 'em, no sweat from Him.
I don't see the scriptures saying, "If the abusive jerk is cool with living with you, tough, you married 'em - - STAY."
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
26
14
19
17
Popular Days
Apr 5
35
Mar 4
24
Mar 9
13
Mar 17
11
Top Posters In This Topic
Galen 26 posts
Steve! 14 posts
Belle 19 posts
HCW 17 posts
Popular Days
Apr 5 2005
35 posts
Mar 4 2005
24 posts
Mar 9 2005
13 posts
Mar 17 2005
11 posts
Bob
To be honest, I would be most happy to consider Belle my friend. Discussing our similar experiences together has done more for me these last few weeks than anything in the last 3 years. It's hard to express. Hopefully I've been able to return the same to Belle.
Belle, I don't care if you're not all sugar and spice. You're something special.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Likewise, my friend.
:)-->
Check your private topics so we can REALLY get some rumors started.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
But everyone knows that relationships started at Greasespot Cafe don't work out!
Just ask my darling wife, Cindy!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Only thing I can say is.. any of you ladies want to private topic me, the Lord have mercy on you! I'm just one worn out kinda hippy type, heh heh.
At least you know what you're getting!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I will even accept PT's from redneck types, and partially cultured ones too. I think all of you are great..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cowgirl
Another relationship that got its start at the GS cafe..... Goey and Cowgirl engaged to be married !!
Cowgirl
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Hey, still waiting here, heh heh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Mr. H,
You're not my type.
:D-->
Belle,
I could PT you AND Bob to REALLY start some rumors!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Mr. H,
think? Think? THINK???
You should KNOW we are great!
:D-->
JT, I'd PT with you any day.
;)--> (that should really get the rumor mill running)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Schwaigers
Hi folks
Here's a question for you. The Bible allows for divorce in situations of adultery and fornication, right? So ... what is fornication? I remember some of what TWI taught about this. But has anyone learned anything more accurate since then? And another thing ... do TWI couples who divorce tend to claim that each other is "possessed"? I am aware of this happening in more than one break-up. -Pat
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zshot
After hearing of all the engagements and weddings of people that have met here...
I wonder if there is hope for me?
-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Pat:
I am aware of the "possessed" card being played in every TWI divorce that I personally know of
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Oak,
I had forgotten that part but I too remember folks who left TWI AND their spouse were routinely labelled.
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Belle,
Oh, baby!
:)-->
JustThinking(Naughty)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
I'm officially possessed. I'm hosting a bevy of devil spirits. It's true; just ask anyone in my area. I think it was a requirement for my divorce. It certainly wasn't because of anything my ex did or didn't do.
I could tell y'all which ones I KNOW they say I have, but I don't want to tarnish my image anymore than I have by letting y'all know that I am, indeed, possessed.
:o-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
JT, Yowsa! You keep on JustThinking(Naughty)!
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Awwww, Zshot....We're just kidding around. Much as I would LOVE to find that someone special, I still haven't either. Don't give up hope, though! Look at Oak, his woman didn't come from here. ArkieRon's woman didn't come from here. There's hope for us yet, my friend!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Schwaigers:
"Here's a question for you. The Bible allows for divorce in situations of adultery and fornication, right? So ... what is fornication?"
Like saying tan and light-brown, same thing just two different words.
Adultery being someone fornicating someone else' wife, or daughter [any female that you have not paid for].
The reason for divorce in the Old Testament was:
Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
See? it does not say adultery and fornication. It was commonly taught by leaders, both then and now that it means cases of adultery [meaning that the wife had sex with someone other than her husband]. Anytime you mess with that which belongs to another, you are in the wrong. In the case of a female not your wife, you owed her father or husband a price, if they did not stone you first.
:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Galen, what is your definition of "uncleanness", then? Are you saying it IS or ISN'T sexually related?
BTW, I'm glad that I was given the bill of divorcement but got to stay in the house!
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Q. Why are divorces so expensive?
A. Because they're worth it!
A comic I heard once said, "Marriage? Why would I want to get married? If I ever feel like getting married, I'll cut out all the middle steps, find some woman I hate, and give her a house!"
Of course, now that I'm so happily married, statements like these no longer carry any emotional weight for me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Belle:
"...and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house."
"Galen, what is your definition of "uncleanness", then? Are you saying it IS or ISN'T sexually related? "
No doubt you have heard this many many times, from while within TWI, but I have no difinition for it. Only the Bible can define it.
I have not done an exhaustive study of "uncleanness" lately. From what I do recall [we did do a study on it once] it had to do with 'kosher'. It most certainly was NOT 'dirtiness'. I seem to think it was like anything not close to G-d, or following His Will.
Mind you, if you really wanted to know for sure you should look it up. But you know that.
It is amazing how so many jump onto the same bandwagon in these issues, whatever a bible dictionary says... Kind of like the 'Harlot' word. Anything to drag down the integrity of G-d.
:-)
"BTW, I'm glad that I was given the bill of divorcement but got to stay in the house!"
I am sure.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
in my will i have left my vast fortune to my wife on the condition she remarries within in 6 month so there will be one man that hates me!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outintexas
I'm glad "happily married" is not necessarily an oxymoron!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Actually, according to Young's, there is one usage of the Hebrew "ervath dabar" which means an unclean thing or matter. The one time is right there in Deuteronomy 24:1.
My Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies" says it is:
"Chiefly spoken of Levitical uncleanness, both of persons and animals.... Unclean and impure in a Levitical and moral sense. It speaks the greatest pollution, the sordid and filthiness of habit, the gore of blood, the muddiness or water, whatsoever is loathsome or unlovely, noisome or unsightly, all these meet in and make up the meaning of this word. It implies unsuitableness or contriety to communion with him that is holy."
The NIV & some other english version translate it "something indecent" or "some indecency" and the NASB cross references it to Numbers 5:12 which says:
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
V:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, "
Generally speaking, it seems like when the Bible speaks of uncleanness in the context of a marriage, it's speaking of sexuality - adultry. Adultry certainly defiles the purpetrator, makin gthem "unclean" in God's eyes concerning the marrage. I'd say that the uncleanness of Deut 24:1 could be stated as meaning, in modern day English, "including, but not limited to sexually...."
I'm sure it also included spiritual uncleanness. which would include possession (TRUE possession, not the TWI version; "I don't like you or what you've said or done, so YOU are possessed!").
It ALSO includes immoral uncleanness which all of the above mentioned abuses would certainly fall under.
In other words... NO. God would NOT have a spouse to stay in a morally abusive realtionship, even if it is a marriage. Um... ah, is ANY abuse moral? I think NOT.
In fact, what God said, even though He HATES divorce he said, "If you find your spouse to be morally unclean, in ANY way, write up the divorce papers, put them right in their hand and put THEM out of the house.
Fast forward to 1 Corinthians 7 where "unbelieving" and "believeth not" is simply "apistos" or UN-faithful, unfaithful to GOD that is.... one who does not believe (pistis) God - - with their actions or way of life. That is different than a believer who, like all others, sins (or is unfaithful) at times.
God hates divorce because of the damage it does to all involved. He loves US, He would not, nor did He ever, instruct us to submit to a morally abusive situation. Most certainly when it comes to His institution of marriage, which unites two individuals the SAME way as He unites Christ (the bridegroom) with us ALL, (his bride) the body of Christ.
God originally told people they could divorce for "uncleanness" which covered a gamut of moral behavior. The Pharasees KNEW the law listed above and (Matt 19:3) tryed to tempt Jesus saying, "... can you divorce "for EVERY cause??? Huh? Huh? ? ? ?"
"No." said Jesus, "Not EVERY cause, In all of your "reading" haven't you read that if a man & woman have done it God's way (by cleaving unto his wife), they are no longer two people, but ONE person that GOD has made ONE FLESH. You CAN'T split them up, because GOD, himself, put them together."
Pharasees then say:
"OK, smarty pants, know it all.... WHY then did MOSES (who REALLY knew God) command people to server her with the Divorce papers & put the b!$@h out???"
Jesus:
"Moses allowed you to put your wives away because your hearts were corrupted and hardened (you weren't cleaving unto your wives you were abusing each other!) It wasn't like that in the beginning because people were closer to GOD!"
"I'm telling you now, If you just kick your spouse out for any old reason but fornication, you're STILL married to them! Marry sombody else (like you guys do all the time) and YOU commit ADULTRY!"
What you see is a progression from "the beginning" when basically everyone was "a believer" to where people fell away from a God & hardened their hearts to him in a God-based society, all the way to a time when people who were ALREADY married became converts, coming BACK to God.
There were times in the first centuries, as there are today, when only one spouse converts to the faith and the other is UN-faithful. God said, "You can't just leave 'em because of THAT, how do YOU know you won't save THEM?"
"BUT. If the un-faith-full one wants to leave YOU, (because of your faith) you're free to let them go, DON'T fight with them, let 'em GO! God called you to peace, remember?"
God also told us in James that faith without the corresponding works (life-style) is DEAD. He also told us that anyone who doesn't behave in a loving manner towards his brother and says he's a believer is LIAR, and the truth does NOT live in him. How much MORE does that refer to a husband, whom God cammands to LOVE his wife as he does his own body - - and a wife who is commanded to just "respond accordingly" to the love from her husband (respond accordingly = submit). He also told us NOT to marry unbelievers IF we're already a believer because we're asking for a difficult situation.
If your husband is UN-faithful to loving you as he loves himself, he places himself in the UNCLEAN category from Deuteronomy - you can serve 'em & put 'em out. A wife found morally unclean... you can write the papers, give 'em to her & then give HER the boot.
God made provision for us in light of where culture has come. We have the right to fight for our marriages... IF we find the spouse "clean," otherwise we can get rid of 'em, no sweat from Him.
I don't see the scriptures saying, "If the abusive jerk is cool with living with you, tough, you married 'em - - STAY."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.