Given how Belle's situation so closely mirrors my own, her questions have been pushing me to put together my thoughts and feelings over the last three years -- which has proven a most beneficial exercise. For that, I owe Belle a debt of gratitude also. Her openness on these boards and thought-provoking questions have been an inspiration and a motivation to get my **** together.
Yet, the minister in this ceremony says, "Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of society...". Nothing about God. The "we" part of the quote is referring to society.
johniam.......... not quite sure which denomination(s) you are talking about???
For the record....in twi, that little wedding booklet states....."Dearly Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of God...." The minister in the ceremony stated this.....and the "we" referred to the people present who were witnesses to these vows.
Sky: Yeah, I still have my wedding booklet too. My point was that a wedding vow is to both society and God (sure, it's legal to get married if you don't believe in God, but most people who get married want a clergyman, a man who to them represents God, to bless their marriage) and I contrasted it to that movie in which the minister actually said "we are assembled in the sight of society".
quote: the "we" referred to the people present who were witnesses to these vows.
But don't those people present represent society as a whole?
I don't think vows have anything to do with a good marriage or a long one. If anything I think they detract.
If you don't live your love and committment because of who you are and who your spouse is today, it really doesn't matter what you vowed 10 years (or 10 days) ago. But clinging to the old vows can actually make you blind to who you or your spouse has become.
I think the way to strengthen marriage is to make divorce easier, and less painful especially to children. That way marriages that are no longer viable except on paper wouldn't even be viable on paper. So what? They aren't true marriages anyway.
It's like having a car that only runs down hill. If you move to Kansas where there are no hills, you'll be forced to deal with the fact that the car just doesn't run.
If I follow what you're saying, it seems that the end result that would solve the problem would be to end marriage as we know it. Perhaps there's some logic in that.
I do know that I do not know anyway that a divorce can be less painful to children. There is only pain, or more pain, depending on how the parents handle it.
If someone has a car that only runs down hill, then it is only good for a one-way trip living in an area with hills. No matter what, you're forced to deal with it, either fixing it, or walking.
If you get married in a church and the couple promises before God and everyone else that they will honor, cherish, etc. If one or both parties do not do what they promised to do, does that negate their vows? How important is that piece of paper that says they are married if the marriage relationship is a sham? What say all?
"Would anyone care to weigh in on this issue? Please."
I dont know the answer to this. Sorry.
I have seen so many devorces over the years. I can not begin to count how many desertions I have seen. I dont think that I have ever gone to sea without at least 3 desertions, while we were under. The wives commonly run up and max-out all credit cards, they stop paying rent and car payments, they spend all the sailor's pay checks, and they run to another state, filing for devorce telling the judge that their husbnad is not around, so the judge bangs a gavel and when we surface, in the pile of mail is devorce decree and notices of alimony back-payment. We get home and the guys will commonly no longer have their home that had bought, their car, their clothing, and crdeit cards will be maxed and the back-child-support will usually be more than the sailor makes.
I have tried to counsel these guys. Loaned them my couch to sleep on while trying to track down their belongings.
Once I recall, the wife had left their children with the state, while she ran off with a new boyfriend. Imagine a fahter trying to get his children back from the state, when he no longer has his house, or car, or bank accounts, and huge alimony.
A lot of married people do try to fully live up to their vows, it does not help when one spouse deserts.
I have probably been envolved [as a pastor and counselor] in close to a hundred devorces, most of them were desertions, a few envolved the sailor being adulterous. I am not aware of any of them envolving the man being physically abvusive. Not to say that it did not happen but rather that in those cases perhaps the sailor did not come to me for help. I have seen a few where the wife was abusive.
"I think the way to strengthen marriage is to make divorce easier, and less painful especially to children."
In many states divorce is very easy now.
If it is not easy then a quick trip to a jurisdiction where it is easy, and your divorce will be put into your hand.
A marriage from any jurisdiction will usually be recognized in every other jurisdiction, jsut as they also recognize a divorce.
Growing up in California, they had very strict laws, but people made quick trips to Reno or to Mexico for instant marriages or divorces, and those had to be recognized by California. From what I have seen a quick trip to Mexico to get a legal divorce, then your preped to go back to your home state for a judge to award alimony and child-support, to be enforced by the IRS and SSA.
Recent changes in the laws allow that as soon as your behind in support, the SSA notifys your home state and: your vehicle registrations are canceled, your driver's license is canceled and your passport is canceled. So if your job requires you to drive, forget it.
We have a local friend [not in our fellowship] who has his children, but his ex-wife is still wanting to get child-support [even though she does not have the children]. While they try to get it straightened out in the courts, he has lost his driver's license and vehicle registrations. All due to the 'Patriots Act'.
This thread brings up something I've been thinking about for a while...but keep in mind this is with those people in mind who believe that marriage is a serious committment, not for those who use it as liberty to push the "grace of God" as TheHighway said.
It's a touchy subject, too...so please forgive me if I step on anyone's toes. Especially since I do not know the particulars of every single marriage/relationship that is represented on this forum.
Here is what I SO don't understand.
Someone is in a marriage that is miserable. It is to the point where they dread either going home or having their spouse come home to them.
Some even exist either in separate bedrooms, or exist as IF they ARE in separate bedrooms. Yet they stay together "for the children."
So that means it's GOOD for children to see and exist in a marriage that is miserable? That way they can grow up to have their very own miserable marriage, since children learn from what they see?
I understand how hard it is to go through a divorce with children, I mean... I've BEEN there. It's a very tough road, with some very hard times..and yet...on the other side could be a relationship that the kids could see that would set them up for SUCCESS in marriage in THEIR lives.
Or even if not....
...I can't figure out is WHY it is ok for us to show our kids that such a below-par existence is OK???
Read "Second Chances." I forget the author. She did a long-term study, and found that children of divorce did horribly in their ability to form good relationships later in life. They did better if the parents were together, even if they did not get along very well. If they can remain civilized, for the sake of the children, parents should stay together.
That doesn't mean spouses should say with abusers. (We're not talking about your former marriage, nor mine.) Abuse teaches kids a whole different set of bad things that they take with them into adulthood. But children are blind in a way. They really don't worry much about how tight mom and dad are, as long as both parents are there for the child.
Therefore, the "we just grew apart" excuse should never justify a divorce where there are kids. And if the parents simply cannot be with each other, they should absolutely plan for how they will consistently be there for their children.
Easier said than done, I know. Yet I have seen some kids who you would never think came from single parent homes.
Unfortunately, I have also seen plenty of kids who obviously come from divorce.
Read "Second Chances." I forget the author. She did a long-term study, and found that children of divorce did horribly in their ability to form good relationships later in life.
You should read "The Good Divorce" by I. Forget also.
She found that most previous studies on the effect of divorce on children were not done on a purely random sample so it skewed the useability of the results. Her study started with a random sample and she found that a surprising number of divorces were "good" where the parents still got along afterward.
And that the effect on the kids had mostly to do with how the parents handled their relationship rather than the mere fact of a divorce.
She also uncovered a number of very special ways that families dealt with the breakup and reformation into their new lives. It was very inspiring.
I'm not saying that divorce is always a good thing for the kids but I know that a lousy marriage is usually a pretty bad thing as well.
Just an anectdote, a few months after my wife got divorced (not from me)her kid's teachers asked her what had happened to them. They saw the kids blossoming and doing much better than they had before. Go figure.
And when I said divorce should be easier - I don't mean just legally. I mean it should be more accepted and have less of a stigma on the parents, and the kids.
It doesn't mean if you're marriage isn't working out that you have the right to be an a$$hole about it - nor that you can abuse your financial obligations or neglect your partental obligations. Just that your marriage didn't work out. Be adult about it (of course if both people were a lot more marriages would work out.
The whole issue of divorce has been such ball and chain around my neck for so long that I can no longer bear the weight of it.
To "live" with someone who brings out the worst in you and seems to enjoying doing so is tormenting beyond words...especially when children are used both as swords and shields in a joist to justify one's actions and "the Word of God" is used as a fiery dart to render one guilty and justify oneself as innocent.
Who could ever imagine such things- that one would only expect to be seen in horror movies. Lives manipulated, tormented, and forever scarred, hearts seared of all feeling, a life without hope of a happier day.
And so I have endured refusing to admit defeat and failure before an adversary that mocks me as the life is drained from me day by day. As I watch my children become victims to a curse unimaginable.
And so I leave in just 2 weeks hence- 2000 miles from my children with no certainty what the future will bring for me or for them. But with a prayer of peace and healing for all concerned.
How can a father leave his children? How can he stay? watching them being sacrificed day by day...their hopes and dreams being stolen by 2 so selfish and cruel people....their mom and dad.
I feel for you. I don't know the specifics of what you're going through, but I know somewhat of how it feels. It is painful.
About the only thing I could suggest is getting some professional help. It sounds like it may be a bit late for marriage counseling, maybe not, but at least some for yourself. I didn't, but wish I had. It's always helpful to have someone either validate what you're doing right or show you how you could be handling something better.
The other thing is, please don't use your kids against your spouse, even if the other is. It only confuses and hurts them. Probate courts don't like it either, whose only concern will be the kids. People have lost custody of their kids for doing such things. I think the technical term for it is parental alienation.
In the past, I was very tempted to pit my kids against my ex, putting blame on her (and TWI) for everything so they knew what happened, etc. I'm so glad I did not (nowadays, I wouldn't know who to blame anyway). My kids know I love them and will do anything for them, including spending as much time as I can with them. We've made the best of a bad situation. Although they would like to see the "family back together," they do not, and never will, feel like they need to choose between Mommy and Daddy. They also get double Christmas presents, birthday presents, etc (they deserve it).
I hope your 2000 mile move is not in response to what is going on with your marriage. But again, I don't know your specifics, and can't or shouldn't be giving advice. Got a good ear for listening though, as most people here also have.
I second everything Bob said, Dart. Your kids still need you, even if your wife doesn't. I hope you can continue to do your best for them.
Please consider counseling. Some things are bigger than one person can or should handle alone. And bigger than us Greasespotters can counsel from a distance.
Amazing! I go away for a few days and find that this thread has really taken off with so much wonderful, sage advice! Thank y'all so much!
Bob, I never realized how very much we really do have in common. Thank you so much for the kind words AND for the brain dump! :)--> I look forward to hearing much more from you! Here are some really key things you said that stirred my brain juices:
quote:
She insisted that our vows included a promise to remain faithful to TWI and that I had violated it....I suppose she had to have something to justify what she was doing.
I think I was never able to put my finger on this one and you nailed it! We learned very well in TWI how to use loyalty to TWI and the scriptures to justify everything we did or thought including "spiritual anger". I was considered the one breaking the vows because I chose to no longer associate with TWI. I didn't turn my back on God - just the group that pretended to represent God. I was constantly told that I had been the one to "change" and to break our vows. Like you, my vows said nothing about remaining "faithful" to TWI. --> AND nevermind the fact that my ex had agreed and wanted to have children when we got married, but changed HIS mind when it became apparent that we could not afford to have children and follow TWI's "suggestion" that we not allow "the world to raise our children". That wasn't breaking a vow, but not going to fellowship was. *shrug*
quote:
I can’t speak for what was going on with my wife, but I was considerably sick at the time. I had severe depression, chronic fatigue, and was overall a general mess, although looking at me you would think I was just tired. The depression was what made survival of the marriage next to impossible. Stress made the depression worse, making it extremely difficult to love someone who is also the source of the stress. The opposite occurs. You only want to push back, get it away from you, to get some relief for what is going on inside your head.
I actually did a really good job of hiding all the problems and sickness from my co-workers. They were in shock when I told them that I had gotten divorced. I didn't even realize how really sick I was until I finally did go for some help. In addition to being severely depressed and having other physical ailments, it was just plain hard to love someone you KNOW would choose that manipulating, lying group of people over you, your love and your vows. I could hardly look him in the eye once that realization settled in.
quote:
What I have found concerning keeping of the vows is inadequate knowledge on how to keep them.
Yeppers! We were never encouraged to get "outside" counselling for our marriage and the only "counselling" we got inside TWI was to "read the word together", "submit to my husband better", b.s. like that. Nothing practical, concrete or helpful. They (TWI leaders) didn't want to know the problems and, if we had discussed them openly it would have been the same outcome since they are so biased about TWI.
My ex wouldn't get "outside" counselling because that would be seen as weakness. I'm sure it killed him when I said that I was going to find a psychiatrist and therapist to start seeing. He probably never told anyone in TWI about that and he sure as he11 didn't stick around long enough after that to see it start working and helping. Then again, if he had stuck around, I might have come along as far as I have.
quote:
But without respect for the other, how can you love them? Respect for what the other is really good at, respect for what the other considers important, respect for knowing that the other is a part of you, respect for knowing that the other has given up so much and committed so much to be with you.
All I can say here is AMEN, AMEN and AMEN, BRUTHA! :D--> I would share things with my ex that TWI was teaching wrong or doing wrong and he would get peeved beyond belief, THEN they would do or say something to "correct" (but never admit being wrong) what I had already pointed out to him and he would act like it was the greatest thing he'd ever heard and like he had never heard that before. And let's not even get started on my "worldly" hobbies, likes, concerns and interests.... Nevermind the fact that he had his own category in the budget and BOTH of us put money into that category, but I never had my own category and had to fight tooth and nail to spend one dime on myself. He could spend every night doing something HE wanted to do but when I decided that I wanted to start spending time on ME, I was questioned and quizzed like I was doing something wrong.....sorry....not going to go there......
Dartanian:
quote:
"the Word of God" is used as a fiery dart to render one guilty and justify oneself as innocent.
Looks like you've gotten the same treatment Bob and I have had the priviledge of experiencing. I'm so sorry! Part of me is really sorry that you and Bob have kids involved and their sweet, tender hearts to protect as well. I know that makes it even harder because you do have to continue to communicate with your ex spouses and in as polite a manner as possible for the sake of the kids.
Part of me is jealous that you have that extra burden because I wish that my ex had at least kept that promise and agreement that we had when we got married. I'm getting really close to being too old to have children and I really resent the fact that I gave up so many years of my life for him and that group of TWIts and that the hardest consequence for those mistakes could very well be that I never get to have the kids I so wanted to have. Most people don't know, but I've been wanting out of TWI since the lawsuits were mentioned and I had been trying hard since then to get my ex to wake up to how miserable our lives are/were because of the lies and errors and manipulation of that group. We're talking at least 5 years. So many times I think that if I hadn't tried to fight for my marriage and keep my vows I could possibly be re-married and starting my family....
Okay, Bob! I see your dump and raise you two! :D--> :D--> :D-->
In addition to being severely depressed and having other physical ailments, it was just plain hard to love someone you KNOW would choose that manipulating, lying group of people over you, your love and your vows.
This was a hard one for me also. After I left TWI, she would no longer talk to me about anything concerning TWI or the Bible, or just about anything else that was a serious topic. She saw me as trying to trick her out of her standing with TWI and would put up her mental defensive shields anytime I tried to speak with her. I had become, in her eyes, the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Just talking with me put her at risk of losing paradise. True, I would have loved for her to quit that group, but at this point, I just wanted to know how she really felt about my questions and concerns. All I would get was, "why don't you talk to [local LC] about it," or "I'm not leaving TWI," even though the question had nothing to do with her leaving or staying with TWI. I was becoming very lonely.
The worst part was knowing that she would open up to her "leadership." She would be completely honest with them and tell them everything I was craving to know. TWI had her love and respect, I had none. At this point, the only reason we were still married was because TWI allowed it. They could pull the plug anytime they wanted, they knew it, and eventually did. I suppose if you were to put it in light of keeping vows, this was where she strayed.
quote:
I've been wanting out of TWI since the lawsuits were mentioned and I had been trying hard since then to get my ex to wake up to how miserable our lives are/were because of the lies and errors and manipulation of that group. We're talking at least 5 years.
Wow. You definitely have some admirable endurance. I lasted 6 months from the time I decided I wanted out of TWI (just after the lawsuits hit) to actually leaving. We were running a fellowship and those last 6 months were extremely difficult. I was such a hypocrite, which I do not like being at all, promoting TWI while detesting it. I'm also not very good at being a hypocrite and it was becoming obvious to everyone. I was only doing it to buy time for my wife to "wake up." Never happened. When they finally demoted and assigned us to another fellowship, I couldn’t do it anymore and decided to just not go. It was the last time I had a real conversation with my wife and felt close to her.
quote:
So many times I think that if I hadn't tried to fight for my marriage and keep my vows I could possibly be re-married and starting my family.
I think you were right in fighting for your marriage. You were fighting TWI for it. Unfortunately, as has happened too many times, TWI won. They stole it from you, along with all you put into it. I hope to God that TWI will someday be held accountable and pay for all the damage they have done.
Belle, if you’re even half the woman I see in reading what you write, your ex is either blind as a bat and couldn’t see what he had, or just a damn fool. You seem like such a caring, giving, loving, and honest person.
The one question I still cannot find an answer for: How can anyone love a religious organization, which only takes from you, more than their spouse, who only gives to you? All for the promise of some supposed future rewards?
My turn! :D--> Smurfette, I hope our banter is helping you as much as it is me. :)-->
quote:
She would be completely honest with them and tell them everything I was craving to know. TWI had her love and respect, I had none.
That was, I think the turning point for me. For the first 4 years it was me hiding things from him after I realized I couldn't tell him everything all at once. I was doling it out in little kibbles and bits trying to get him to make those baby steps toward seeing how evil TWI is. I felt horrible and like a total liar, which I was, but I felt justified in my actions and I did share everything else with him. He was my best friend, after all. When he quit sharing with me and telling me things we had nothing left to talk about except my mistakes and inadequacies as a wife, house keeper, believer, person taking up space in the gene pool.
When I started therapy the tables were turned and he felt left out. The thing is, he's the one who closed the door because he wouldn't listen and didn't care about those things. He still didn't care about them, but didn't want anyone else to know about them either.
quote:
I'm also not very good at being a hypocrite and it was becoming obvious to everyone. I was only doing it to buy time for my wife to "wake up."
LOL! We have WAY TOO MUCH in common! I sucked at being a hypocrite and hated every minute of it. I'm amazed I lasted as long as I did because it was very obvious that I was so over TWI and their silly games. My brother kept telling my mom that they would tell me one too many times not to do something and I'd be outta there. LOL! He knows me better than I know myself sometimes.
quote:
I think you were right in fighting for your marriage. You were fighting TWI for it. Unfortunately, as has happened too many times, TWI won.
Thanks. I feel like I really truly did give it everything I had and have no regrets about our divorce because of it. If I had fought hard that first day I told him I wanted out then I would feel like I pushed the issue too hard and didn't give him a chance. (He begged me to stay in TWI and to "please don't do this to our marriage". He KNEW what was going to happen.) I gave him five years to decide what he was going to allow TWI to do to our marriage and he made the choice. I can move on with no regrets.
You're way too kind, Bob. Remember that you're only hearing one side of the story. I'm sure my ex would tell you things about me that would make your hair curl. ;)--> I can tell you some of them, but then I wouldn't be able to pretend to be all sugar and spice.
I have to think about your question. Can I get back to you on that?
Remember that you're only hearing one side of the story. I'm sure my ex would tell you things about me that would make your hair curl. I can tell you some of them, but then I wouldn't be able to pretend to be all sugar and spice.
Are you suggesting you're not all sugar and spice? lol.
I could talk with your ex, but I have a feeling it would sound a lot like talking with my own ex, which has curled my hair enough already. :)--> I like our sides of the story much better.
I have a theory on my question. I think it is similar to what was going on in the 2nd – 4th centuries with Christian martyrs. I’ve been doing quite a bit of reading concerning the history of this period. Fascinating, especially knowing its affect on the last 2000 years.
These people were given the choice between living and a torturous execution, usually by having animals rip them apart or, if they were a Roman citizen, by beheading. All they had to do to avoid execution was to perform their legally required sacrifices to local Roman gods. They didn't have to mean it, only had to go through the motions. Yet, so many of them chose death and stood steadfast to the very end, some enduring hours of torture before dying.
Factors influencing their decision:
They believed the Roman gods were devil spirits, members of the fallen angelic realm of Satan (Interestingly, Christians at this time were labeled atheist because they denied the existence of the gods, insisting there was only one God and one enemy of God).
They believed there was a great spiritual war going on between God and the Devil, one which God had already won via Christ and the Devil is only going down kicking, trying to make life miserable for humans.
They believed Satan worked through people, as his agent, especially via the Roman government.
Even just going through the motions of the sacrifice was giving in to Satan.
The church leaders encouraged them to stand their ground and accept the execution, saying they would receive the greater reward in the after-life.
So, Joe Martyr believes he has all the answers to every question plaguing humans since the dawn of time – where did we come from, what is the purpose of life, etc. Joe Martyr has accepted this belief as truth. This gives Joe Martyr peace of mind and a sense of purpose in life. It becomes almost a drug to him. Joe Martyr also believes that anything or anyone that causes one to doubt his belief, by definition, must be an attack of Satan. Therefore, no questioning or doubt of his beliefs is permitted and his brain will automatically reject such, dismissing them as either lies, or explaining them in a way that lets them fit in with his already accepted beliefs.
Joe Martyr goes to his death believing he has won a victory for God. Did he? If there is a day of reckoning, I suppose we’ll find out. But my brain leans toward thinking he gave away his life and got little, if anything in return.
I see similarities between the martyrs of early Christianity and the way my ex acted and thought. This biggest point being that she stopped accepting questions or doubts concerning TWI (probably long before she even met me). Given such a mindset, is there anything that would act as a valid question or doubt? From what I’ve observed, there is none. She is like the martyr, willing to sacrifice all.
Then again, I may be over-simplifying things. I don’t know. I think there’s something there.
Bob & Belle and everyone in specific and in general-Having been married twice (!) and I would have never ever thought I would divorce, but yet here we are. At the time of the second divorce I actually had some one tell me I wouldn't ever find anyone else was I nuts or what? A two time loser with a young child? Tried again to talk sense to the #2 but, alas he loved pills, and the 22 year old babysitter far more than he did me!
Marriage #1 I felt completely justified in running like the whipped dog I was- a surival nesscessity and that was during my own "fog years"
It's amazing thatthis particluar topic hits on such the nerve- Mr & Mrs ! I like you both without really knowing you, but the common sense just pours off of you both.
I wouldn't think that God does truly mind the piece of paper, it's us that has all the baggage. I hope not, because the wonderful man I call spouse now father to all my children, is not my legal spouse. I can not have another wedding. My family will give my paper plates and plastic silverware- and I fail to qualify for bulk mailing rates for invitations, as each wedding has been in a different decade!
The wedding is performed in the chat room. Paw performs the ceremony.
Pictures of smiley faces dancing and kissing litter the Every Picture Tells a Story forum.
Latter, little smiley faces crawling and crying start showing up in the forum.
Then one day, Paw starts banning posters for spelling and grammar errors. Tells everyone to avoid contact with them, no email, no IM. If they want to come back, they must spend 6 months reading all posts in the Doctrinal forum and submit a 20 page write-up summarizing it.
Belle protests to me. She can’t find anything in the forum rules that would allow Paw to do such a thing. I say it is for their own good, and for the good of the online community. It is the loving thing to do.
Banned posters gather together and start an Ex-GSCafe site. Belle starts visiting and posting on it, without telling me.
Then one day scandal hits. Paw is caught posting copyrighted pornographic cartoon images in the Every Picture Tells a Story. A lawsuit is filed and goes public.
Paw admits an error in judgment but claims the copyright was consensual. The other moderators start covering for him, saying it is only one man’s sin and doesn’t change anything.
The online community is in an uproar. How could people be banned for misspelling THE and Paw get nothing? Paw voluntarily steps down as administrator of the site. A behind the scenes moderator is put in charge. Paw is put in charge of the Doctrinal forum.
Months pass but the GSCafe community is still in uproar and losing posters daily. The top moderators get together and decide GSCafe can’t continue with Paw and place him on double secret probation and suspend his ID. Paw continues to moderate GSCafe behind the scenes, using an ID no one would recognize.
The Ex-GSCafe site has ballooned. Its main function is to expose GSCafe and support recovery for those you have been hurt by it. Belle is a prolific poster there, under an assumed ID.
Everyday, Belle points out yet another reason why she thinks GSCafe is wrong. I dismiss it as being lies. She is only trying to trick me into leaving. Belle eventually tells me to choose between GSCafe or her. I choose GSCafe, looking forward to the future rewards and status level for attaining 10,000 posts.
Years latter, there are only 3 posters left on GSCafe. We are a loyal group and witness daily to its greatness in other newsgroups, attempting to attract new people but it never happens. Then one day, the site just shuts down. I am devastated. All my posts are gone, my status level is gone, I have nothing.
Belle sends me an email. It only has three words: “told you so.â€
After GSpot closes, Bob and one of the other posters left start an off-shoot website. They lure some of the others back because it is a "kinder, gentler" site and mis-spelled words are now okay. Grammatical errors, however, will keep you from the more "advanced" areas of the site, but they ARE deemed acceptable for those who aren't "mature enough" to use spell and grammer check on their posts.
Meanwhile, I continue my prolific posts on the other site and attain many rewards and a prestigious status level because I attain 10,000 posts. It's not as special because excathedra has now reached 100,000 posts, but it IS special nonetheless.
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Thank you Shaz and CoolChef.
Given how Belle's situation so closely mirrors my own, her questions have been pushing me to put together my thoughts and feelings over the last three years -- which has proven a most beneficial exercise. For that, I owe Belle a debt of gratitude also. Her openness on these boards and thought-provoking questions have been an inspiration and a motivation to get my **** together.
Thank you Belle. Keep it up.
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johniam
Sky: Yeah, I still have my wedding booklet too. My point was that a wedding vow is to both society and God (sure, it's legal to get married if you don't believe in God, but most people who get married want a clergyman, a man who to them represents God, to bless their marriage) and I contrasted it to that movie in which the minister actually said "we are assembled in the sight of society".
quote: the "we" referred to the people present who were witnesses to these vows.
But don't those people present represent society as a whole?
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My3Cents
I don't think vows have anything to do with a good marriage or a long one. If anything I think they detract.
If you don't live your love and committment because of who you are and who your spouse is today, it really doesn't matter what you vowed 10 years (or 10 days) ago. But clinging to the old vows can actually make you blind to who you or your spouse has become.
I think the way to strengthen marriage is to make divorce easier, and less painful especially to children. That way marriages that are no longer viable except on paper wouldn't even be viable on paper. So what? They aren't true marriages anyway.
It's like having a car that only runs down hill. If you move to Kansas where there are no hills, you'll be forced to deal with the fact that the car just doesn't run.
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excathedra
i like what you said, my3c
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Bob
I'm not sure I understand what you said My3c.
If I follow what you're saying, it seems that the end result that would solve the problem would be to end marriage as we know it. Perhaps there's some logic in that.
I do know that I do not know anyway that a divorce can be less painful to children. There is only pain, or more pain, depending on how the parents handle it.
If someone has a car that only runs down hill, then it is only good for a one-way trip living in an area with hills. No matter what, you're forced to deal with it, either fixing it, or walking.
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Galen
Belle:
"Would anyone care to weigh in on this issue? Please."
I dont know the answer to this. Sorry.
I have seen so many devorces over the years. I can not begin to count how many desertions I have seen. I dont think that I have ever gone to sea without at least 3 desertions, while we were under. The wives commonly run up and max-out all credit cards, they stop paying rent and car payments, they spend all the sailor's pay checks, and they run to another state, filing for devorce telling the judge that their husbnad is not around, so the judge bangs a gavel and when we surface, in the pile of mail is devorce decree and notices of alimony back-payment. We get home and the guys will commonly no longer have their home that had bought, their car, their clothing, and crdeit cards will be maxed and the back-child-support will usually be more than the sailor makes.
I have tried to counsel these guys. Loaned them my couch to sleep on while trying to track down their belongings.
Once I recall, the wife had left their children with the state, while she ran off with a new boyfriend. Imagine a fahter trying to get his children back from the state, when he no longer has his house, or car, or bank accounts, and huge alimony.
A lot of married people do try to fully live up to their vows, it does not help when one spouse deserts.
I have probably been envolved [as a pastor and counselor] in close to a hundred devorces, most of them were desertions, a few envolved the sailor being adulterous. I am not aware of any of them envolving the man being physically abvusive. Not to say that it did not happen but rather that in those cases perhaps the sailor did not come to me for help. I have seen a few where the wife was abusive.
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Galen
My3Cents:
"I think the way to strengthen marriage is to make divorce easier, and less painful especially to children."
In many states divorce is very easy now.
If it is not easy then a quick trip to a jurisdiction where it is easy, and your divorce will be put into your hand.
A marriage from any jurisdiction will usually be recognized in every other jurisdiction, jsut as they also recognize a divorce.
Growing up in California, they had very strict laws, but people made quick trips to Reno or to Mexico for instant marriages or divorces, and those had to be recognized by California. From what I have seen a quick trip to Mexico to get a legal divorce, then your preped to go back to your home state for a judge to award alimony and child-support, to be enforced by the IRS and SSA.
Recent changes in the laws allow that as soon as your behind in support, the SSA notifys your home state and: your vehicle registrations are canceled, your driver's license is canceled and your passport is canceled. So if your job requires you to drive, forget it.
We have a local friend [not in our fellowship] who has his children, but his ex-wife is still wanting to get child-support [even though she does not have the children]. While they try to get it straightened out in the courts, he has lost his driver's license and vehicle registrations. All due to the 'Patriots Act'.
:-)
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Cindy!
This thread brings up something I've been thinking about for a while...but keep in mind this is with those people in mind who believe that marriage is a serious committment, not for those who use it as liberty to push the "grace of God" as TheHighway said.
It's a touchy subject, too...so please forgive me if I step on anyone's toes. Especially since I do not know the particulars of every single marriage/relationship that is represented on this forum.
Here is what I SO don't understand.
Someone is in a marriage that is miserable. It is to the point where they dread either going home or having their spouse come home to them.
Some even exist either in separate bedrooms, or exist as IF they ARE in separate bedrooms. Yet they stay together "for the children."
So that means it's GOOD for children to see and exist in a marriage that is miserable? That way they can grow up to have their very own miserable marriage, since children learn from what they see?
I understand how hard it is to go through a divorce with children, I mean... I've BEEN there. It's a very tough road, with some very hard times..and yet...on the other side could be a relationship that the kids could see that would set them up for SUCCESS in marriage in THEIR lives.
Or even if not....
...I can't figure out is WHY it is ok for us to show our kids that such a below-par existence is OK???
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shazdancer
I'll take that one on, Mrs. !
Read "Second Chances." I forget the author. She did a long-term study, and found that children of divorce did horribly in their ability to form good relationships later in life. They did better if the parents were together, even if they did not get along very well. If they can remain civilized, for the sake of the children, parents should stay together.
That doesn't mean spouses should say with abusers. (We're not talking about your former marriage, nor mine.) Abuse teaches kids a whole different set of bad things that they take with them into adulthood. But children are blind in a way. They really don't worry much about how tight mom and dad are, as long as both parents are there for the child.
Therefore, the "we just grew apart" excuse should never justify a divorce where there are kids. And if the parents simply cannot be with each other, they should absolutely plan for how they will consistently be there for their children.
Easier said than done, I know. Yet I have seen some kids who you would never think came from single parent homes.
Unfortunately, I have also seen plenty of kids who obviously come from divorce.
Regards,
Shaz
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My3Cents
You should read "The Good Divorce" by I. Forget also.
She found that most previous studies on the effect of divorce on children were not done on a purely random sample so it skewed the useability of the results. Her study started with a random sample and she found that a surprising number of divorces were "good" where the parents still got along afterward.
And that the effect on the kids had mostly to do with how the parents handled their relationship rather than the mere fact of a divorce.
She also uncovered a number of very special ways that families dealt with the breakup and reformation into their new lives. It was very inspiring.
I'm not saying that divorce is always a good thing for the kids but I know that a lousy marriage is usually a pretty bad thing as well.
Just an anectdote, a few months after my wife got divorced (not from me)her kid's teachers asked her what had happened to them. They saw the kids blossoming and doing much better than they had before. Go figure.
And when I said divorce should be easier - I don't mean just legally. I mean it should be more accepted and have less of a stigma on the parents, and the kids.
It doesn't mean if you're marriage isn't working out that you have the right to be an a$$hole about it - nor that you can abuse your financial obligations or neglect your partental obligations. Just that your marriage didn't work out. Be adult about it (of course if both people were a lot more marriages would work out.
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Dartanian3m
The whole issue of divorce has been such ball and chain around my neck for so long that I can no longer bear the weight of it.
To "live" with someone who brings out the worst in you and seems to enjoying doing so is tormenting beyond words...especially when children are used both as swords and shields in a joist to justify one's actions and "the Word of God" is used as a fiery dart to render one guilty and justify oneself as innocent.
Who could ever imagine such things- that one would only expect to be seen in horror movies. Lives manipulated, tormented, and forever scarred, hearts seared of all feeling, a life without hope of a happier day.
And so I have endured refusing to admit defeat and failure before an adversary that mocks me as the life is drained from me day by day. As I watch my children become victims to a curse unimaginable.
And so I leave in just 2 weeks hence- 2000 miles from my children with no certainty what the future will bring for me or for them. But with a prayer of peace and healing for all concerned.
How can a father leave his children? How can he stay? watching them being sacrificed day by day...their hopes and dreams being stolen by 2 so selfish and cruel people....their mom and dad.
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Oakspear
Dartanian:
Please check your Private Topics
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Bob
Dartanian,
I feel for you. I don't know the specifics of what you're going through, but I know somewhat of how it feels. It is painful.
About the only thing I could suggest is getting some professional help. It sounds like it may be a bit late for marriage counseling, maybe not, but at least some for yourself. I didn't, but wish I had. It's always helpful to have someone either validate what you're doing right or show you how you could be handling something better.
The other thing is, please don't use your kids against your spouse, even if the other is. It only confuses and hurts them. Probate courts don't like it either, whose only concern will be the kids. People have lost custody of their kids for doing such things. I think the technical term for it is parental alienation.
In the past, I was very tempted to pit my kids against my ex, putting blame on her (and TWI) for everything so they knew what happened, etc. I'm so glad I did not (nowadays, I wouldn't know who to blame anyway). My kids know I love them and will do anything for them, including spending as much time as I can with them. We've made the best of a bad situation. Although they would like to see the "family back together," they do not, and never will, feel like they need to choose between Mommy and Daddy. They also get double Christmas presents, birthday presents, etc (they deserve it).
I hope your 2000 mile move is not in response to what is going on with your marriage. But again, I don't know your specifics, and can't or shouldn't be giving advice. Got a good ear for listening though, as most people here also have.
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shazdancer
I second everything Bob said, Dart. Your kids still need you, even if your wife doesn't. I hope you can continue to do your best for them.
Please consider counseling. Some things are bigger than one person can or should handle alone. And bigger than us Greasespotters can counsel from a distance.
Regards,
Shaz
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Belle
Amazing! I go away for a few days and find that this thread has really taken off with so much wonderful, sage advice! Thank y'all so much!
Bob, I never realized how very much we really do have in common. Thank you so much for the kind words AND for the brain dump!
:)--> I look forward to hearing much more from you! Here are some really key things you said that stirred my brain juices:
I think I was never able to put my finger on this one and you nailed it! We learned very well in TWI how to use loyalty to TWI and the scriptures to justify everything we did or thought including "spiritual anger". I was considered the one breaking the vows because I chose to no longer associate with TWI. I didn't turn my back on God - just the group that pretended to represent God. I was constantly told that I had been the one to "change" and to break our vows. Like you, my vows said nothing about remaining "faithful" to TWI.
--> AND nevermind the fact that my ex had agreed and wanted to have children when we got married, but changed HIS mind when it became apparent that we could not afford to have children and follow TWI's "suggestion" that we not allow "the world to raise our children". That wasn't breaking a vow, but not going to fellowship was. *shrug*
I actually did a really good job of hiding all the problems and sickness from my co-workers. They were in shock when I told them that I had gotten divorced. I didn't even realize how really sick I was until I finally did go for some help. In addition to being severely depressed and having other physical ailments, it was just plain hard to love someone you KNOW would choose that manipulating, lying group of people over you, your love and your vows. I could hardly look him in the eye once that realization settled in.
Yeppers! We were never encouraged to get "outside" counselling for our marriage and the only "counselling" we got inside TWI was to "read the word together", "submit to my husband better", b.s. like that. Nothing practical, concrete or helpful. They (TWI leaders) didn't want to know the problems and, if we had discussed them openly it would have been the same outcome since they are so biased about TWI.
My ex wouldn't get "outside" counselling because that would be seen as weakness. I'm sure it killed him when I said that I was going to find a psychiatrist and therapist to start seeing. He probably never told anyone in TWI about that and he sure as he11 didn't stick around long enough after that to see it start working and helping. Then again, if he had stuck around, I might have come along as far as I have.
All I can say here is AMEN, AMEN and AMEN, BRUTHA!
:D--> I would share things with my ex that TWI was teaching wrong or doing wrong and he would get peeved beyond belief, THEN they would do or say something to "correct" (but never admit being wrong) what I had already pointed out to him and he would act like it was the greatest thing he'd ever heard and like he had never heard that before. And let's not even get started on my "worldly" hobbies, likes, concerns and interests.... Nevermind the fact that he had his own category in the budget and BOTH of us put money into that category, but I never had my own category and had to fight tooth and nail to spend one dime on myself. He could spend every night doing something HE wanted to do but when I decided that I wanted to start spending time on ME, I was questioned and quizzed like I was doing something wrong.....sorry....not going to go there......
Dartanian:
Looks like you've gotten the same treatment Bob and I have had the priviledge of experiencing. I'm so sorry! Part of me is really sorry that you and Bob have kids involved and their sweet, tender hearts to protect as well. I know that makes it even harder because you do have to continue to communicate with your ex spouses and in as polite a manner as possible for the sake of the kids.
Part of me is jealous that you have that extra burden because I wish that my ex had at least kept that promise and agreement that we had when we got married. I'm getting really close to being too old to have children and I really resent the fact that I gave up so many years of my life for him and that group of TWIts and that the hardest consequence for those mistakes could very well be that I never get to have the kids I so wanted to have. Most people don't know, but I've been wanting out of TWI since the lawsuits were mentioned and I had been trying hard since then to get my ex to wake up to how miserable our lives are/were because of the lies and errors and manipulation of that group. We're talking at least 5 years. So many times I think that if I hadn't tried to fight for my marriage and keep my vows I could possibly be re-married and starting my family....
Okay, Bob! I see your dump and raise you two!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
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Bob
I'll see your raise and raise again.
:)-->
This was a hard one for me also. After I left TWI, she would no longer talk to me about anything concerning TWI or the Bible, or just about anything else that was a serious topic. She saw me as trying to trick her out of her standing with TWI and would put up her mental defensive shields anytime I tried to speak with her. I had become, in her eyes, the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Just talking with me put her at risk of losing paradise. True, I would have loved for her to quit that group, but at this point, I just wanted to know how she really felt about my questions and concerns. All I would get was, "why don't you talk to [local LC] about it," or "I'm not leaving TWI," even though the question had nothing to do with her leaving or staying with TWI. I was becoming very lonely.
The worst part was knowing that she would open up to her "leadership." She would be completely honest with them and tell them everything I was craving to know. TWI had her love and respect, I had none. At this point, the only reason we were still married was because TWI allowed it. They could pull the plug anytime they wanted, they knew it, and eventually did. I suppose if you were to put it in light of keeping vows, this was where she strayed.
Wow. You definitely have some admirable endurance. I lasted 6 months from the time I decided I wanted out of TWI (just after the lawsuits hit) to actually leaving. We were running a fellowship and those last 6 months were extremely difficult. I was such a hypocrite, which I do not like being at all, promoting TWI while detesting it. I'm also not very good at being a hypocrite and it was becoming obvious to everyone. I was only doing it to buy time for my wife to "wake up." Never happened. When they finally demoted and assigned us to another fellowship, I couldn’t do it anymore and decided to just not go. It was the last time I had a real conversation with my wife and felt close to her.
I think you were right in fighting for your marriage. You were fighting TWI for it. Unfortunately, as has happened too many times, TWI won. They stole it from you, along with all you put into it. I hope to God that TWI will someday be held accountable and pay for all the damage they have done.
Belle, if you’re even half the woman I see in reading what you write, your ex is either blind as a bat and couldn’t see what he had, or just a damn fool. You seem like such a caring, giving, loving, and honest person.
The one question I still cannot find an answer for: How can anyone love a religious organization, which only takes from you, more than their spouse, who only gives to you? All for the promise of some supposed future rewards?
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Belle
My turn!
:D--> Smurfette, I hope our banter is helping you as much as it is me. 
:)-->
That was, I think the turning point for me. For the first 4 years it was me hiding things from him after I realized I couldn't tell him everything all at once. I was doling it out in little kibbles and bits trying to get him to make those baby steps toward seeing how evil TWI is. I felt horrible and like a total liar, which I was, but I felt justified in my actions and I did share everything else with him. He was my best friend, after all. When he quit sharing with me and telling me things we had nothing left to talk about except my mistakes and inadequacies as a wife, house keeper, believer, person taking up space in the gene pool.
When I started therapy the tables were turned and he felt left out. The thing is, he's the one who closed the door because he wouldn't listen and didn't care about those things. He still didn't care about them, but didn't want anyone else to know about them either.
LOL! We have WAY TOO MUCH in common! I sucked at being a hypocrite and hated every minute of it. I'm amazed I lasted as long as I did because it was very obvious that I was so over TWI and their silly games. My brother kept telling my mom that they would tell me one too many times not to do something and I'd be outta there. LOL! He knows me better than I know myself sometimes.
Thanks. I feel like I really truly did give it everything I had and have no regrets about our divorce because of it. If I had fought hard that first day I told him I wanted out then I would feel like I pushed the issue too hard and didn't give him a chance. (He begged me to stay in TWI and to "please don't do this to our marriage". He KNEW what was going to happen.) I gave him five years to decide what he was going to allow TWI to do to our marriage and he made the choice. I can move on with no regrets.
You're way too kind, Bob. Remember that you're only hearing one side of the story. I'm sure my ex would tell you things about me that would make your hair curl.
;)--> I can tell you some of them, but then I wouldn't be able to pretend to be all sugar and spice.
I have to think about your question. Can I get back to you on that?
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Bob
Are you suggesting you're not all sugar and spice?
lol.
I could talk with your ex, but I have a feeling it would sound a lot like talking with my own ex, which has curled my hair enough already.
:)--> I like our sides of the story much better.
I have a theory on my question. I think it is similar to what was going on in the 2nd – 4th centuries with Christian martyrs. I’ve been doing quite a bit of reading concerning the history of this period. Fascinating, especially knowing its affect on the last 2000 years.
These people were given the choice between living and a torturous execution, usually by having animals rip them apart or, if they were a Roman citizen, by beheading. All they had to do to avoid execution was to perform their legally required sacrifices to local Roman gods. They didn't have to mean it, only had to go through the motions. Yet, so many of them chose death and stood steadfast to the very end, some enduring hours of torture before dying.
Factors influencing their decision:
So, Joe Martyr believes he has all the answers to every question plaguing humans since the dawn of time – where did we come from, what is the purpose of life, etc. Joe Martyr has accepted this belief as truth. This gives Joe Martyr peace of mind and a sense of purpose in life. It becomes almost a drug to him. Joe Martyr also believes that anything or anyone that causes one to doubt his belief, by definition, must be an attack of Satan. Therefore, no questioning or doubt of his beliefs is permitted and his brain will automatically reject such, dismissing them as either lies, or explaining them in a way that lets them fit in with his already accepted beliefs.
Joe Martyr goes to his death believing he has won a victory for God. Did he? If there is a day of reckoning, I suppose we’ll find out. But my brain leans toward thinking he gave away his life and got little, if anything in return.
I see similarities between the martyrs of early Christianity and the way my ex acted and thought. This biggest point being that she stopped accepting questions or doubts concerning TWI (probably long before she even met me). Given such a mindset, is there anything that would act as a valid question or doubt? From what I’ve observed, there is none. She is like the martyr, willing to sacrifice all.
Then again, I may be over-simplifying things. I don’t know. I think there’s something there.
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Steve!
Hmmmm, am I sensing a love connection here?
;)-->
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andreatheflorist
Bob & Belle and everyone in specific and in general-Having been married twice (!) and I would have never ever thought I would divorce, but yet here we are. At the time of the second divorce I actually had some one tell me I wouldn't ever find anyone else was I nuts or what? A two time loser with a young child? Tried again to talk sense to the #2 but, alas he loved pills, and the 22 year old babysitter far more than he did me!
Marriage #1 I felt completely justified in running like the whipped dog I was- a surival nesscessity and that was during my own "fog years"
It's amazing thatthis particluar topic hits on such the nerve- Mr & Mrs ! I like you both without really knowing you, but the common sense just pours off of you both.
I wouldn't think that God does truly mind the piece of paper, it's us that has all the baggage. I hope not, because the wonderful man I call spouse now father to all my children, is not my legal spouse. I can not have another wedding. My family will give my paper plates and plastic silverware- and I fail to qualify for bulk mailing rates for invitations, as each wedding has been in a different decade!
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Bob
Cyber love.
The wedding is performed in the chat room. Paw performs the ceremony.
Pictures of smiley faces dancing and kissing litter the Every Picture Tells a Story forum.
Latter, little smiley faces crawling and crying start showing up in the forum.
Then one day, Paw starts banning posters for spelling and grammar errors. Tells everyone to avoid contact with them, no email, no IM. If they want to come back, they must spend 6 months reading all posts in the Doctrinal forum and submit a 20 page write-up summarizing it.
Belle protests to me. She can’t find anything in the forum rules that would allow Paw to do such a thing. I say it is for their own good, and for the good of the online community. It is the loving thing to do.
Banned posters gather together and start an Ex-GSCafe site. Belle starts visiting and posting on it, without telling me.
Then one day scandal hits. Paw is caught posting copyrighted pornographic cartoon images in the Every Picture Tells a Story. A lawsuit is filed and goes public.
Paw admits an error in judgment but claims the copyright was consensual. The other moderators start covering for him, saying it is only one man’s sin and doesn’t change anything.
The online community is in an uproar. How could people be banned for misspelling THE and Paw get nothing? Paw voluntarily steps down as administrator of the site. A behind the scenes moderator is put in charge. Paw is put in charge of the Doctrinal forum.
Months pass but the GSCafe community is still in uproar and losing posters daily. The top moderators get together and decide GSCafe can’t continue with Paw and place him on double secret probation and suspend his ID. Paw continues to moderate GSCafe behind the scenes, using an ID no one would recognize.
The Ex-GSCafe site has ballooned. Its main function is to expose GSCafe and support recovery for those you have been hurt by it. Belle is a prolific poster there, under an assumed ID.
Everyday, Belle points out yet another reason why she thinks GSCafe is wrong. I dismiss it as being lies. She is only trying to trick me into leaving. Belle eventually tells me to choose between GSCafe or her. I choose GSCafe, looking forward to the future rewards and status level for attaining 10,000 posts.
Years latter, there are only 3 posters left on GSCafe. We are a loyal group and witness daily to its greatness in other newsgroups, attempting to attract new people but it never happens. Then one day, the site just shuts down. I am devastated. All my posts are gone, my status level is gone, I have nothing.
Belle sends me an email. It only has three words: “told you so.â€
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Bob
You're a sweetheart Andrea. I'm glad your current relationship is making you happy.
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Belle
After GSpot closes, Bob and one of the other posters left start an off-shoot website. They lure some of the others back because it is a "kinder, gentler" site and mis-spelled words are now okay. Grammatical errors, however, will keep you from the more "advanced" areas of the site, but they ARE deemed acceptable for those who aren't "mature enough" to use spell and grammer check on their posts.
Meanwhile, I continue my prolific posts on the other site and attain many rewards and a prestigious status level because I attain 10,000 posts. It's not as special because excathedra has now reached 100,000 posts, but it IS special nonetheless.
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Bob
I feel dirty for pretending to play the role of a brain-dead wayfer.
Where’s excathedra? I need forgiveness and to pay my penance.
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