Steve! but Cindy! has been previously married, right? How do her initial wedding vows figure into that?
How about me? I was married and my ex chose TWI over me. By the end the marriage was a sham. Both of us changed our minds about things we promised to do when we got married.
But only after we had repeatedly tried to get our partners to work on the marriage. To no avail.
If a marriage is in trouble and can be saved (i.e. both are willing to work on a good marriage), then the vows hold. But if one or both partners walk away from the vows and will not get help...stick a fork in it...it's done.
I spent 6 years in a terrible marriage. My ex-husband was a substance abuser. I didn't find out until 3 years into the marriage. I was shocked and felt completely betrayed when I first found drugs. I confronted him and gave him the choice to get help or get divorced. I would not tolerate substance or alcohol abuse. He went to rehab, but later he found ways to hide his problem (i.e., prescribed pain killers, mua huang aka ephedra). I got tired of it all and wanted so bad to get out. I loved him, but I hated that he wanted other things more than me or our marriage. I no longer trusted him, and it was all beyond repair IMO. I left him and divorced him. I struggled with whether I was sinning or not. He had already left twi, so I used that as my out.
Whether it was right or wrong in God's eyes, I don't know. Yes I broke my vows to him, but I also promised God that I would not get married again unless I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the marriage was going to be solid and based on love and respect for each other. It was based purely on sexual attraction the first time.
I guess we'll really know about the vows we made when the time comes. I'm not concerned about it though. I know I tried my best to keep it going the first time. My current husband and I are such kindred spirits, I don't know how we couldn't make it. Every day with him is happy and fulfilling.:)-->
If God joins together, and the state legalizes divorces -- isn't that a conflict of
separation of church and state?? ;)-->
bad dmiller!
I was married before also, and have been divorced for a while now. The "piece of paper" and the vows made certainly did (and do) mean a lot. As in a lot of cases -- we *grew apart* (for whatever reason), and in the end we were unable to work it out.
Hearing this talk of *breaking vows*, makes me wonder where we actually broke ours, but as the years passed -- the gap between us widened. My ex is re-married (and has a child this time), and she had no qualms about the second marriage.
I have had the chance to get married again myself, but never did. Things just weren't *clicking*, but if they had -- I would have had no qualms about re-marrying either.
Nor would I have worried about the previous marriage, or vows spoken. We tried to work it out, but like Cindy! said -- "we stuck a fork in it, and found it *done*".
Not only did we not try to *break the vows*, we tried to work things out -- so if marriage were to come up in my future, I wouldn't feel guilty about the previous one at all, or the vows spoken once upon a time.
Believe me, I have my own skeletons buried in the way woods myself...I had a "way marriage"...two WOW's that met and got married, mine was the first twi wedding ever at camp Gunnison...Veepee was there hisself...
We went into the corps together and during our interim year, my wife cracked under the pressure of trying to live a pseudo cult life with a husband she didn't really know and who didn't really know her...We never should have been married to start with. She left.
Of course, being a glassy eyed fu*k chimp, I called LCM immediately, hoping for some comfort and encouragement... ;)-->...drum roll please...
With an indifferent tone in his voice, mr martinfart informs me that I am officially "out of the corps"...I am stunned. He goes on to tell me that he didn't think that I got a single thing out of my first year in residence and that I should " go find a twig somewhere"...
I think back now and I laugh about it...I wasn't laughing at the time. I went on a 6 month Scotch binge (Dewars thank you)...I finally survived the whole ordeal, like so many other things in life...this was 26 years ago, but the thing that lingers the most, was martindale's total indifference.
Happy to report that my ex went on to great things...and I'm glad she did.
Twi destroyed countless marriages...the cult experience is devastating enough for the individual...what it does to a marriage is a real horror story.
I think folks had to do what they had to do...in order to survive...I believe in the integrity of the marriage vows...but when it is a "cult marriage", and people are glassy eyed, brainwashed, and misguided...all bets are off. God made a special "out" for people in this situation:
From the bullsheeta text, "Lo, if thou art stricken with a delusional spirit, and are married thusly, and if either should go to or fro without the other...they shall be loosed from this delusional vow made in derision"
To digress for but a mo', I just wanted to say that I think that's the first use of fu*k and chimp in the same sentence, on GS. I could be wrong, but it caught my eye.
:D-->
An addition to the glossary. What's the official definition on that UH? This may warrant it's own thread, dunno.
I've been married 16 1/2 yrs. My vow was to "love, honor, cherish, and sustain her as becometh a Christian husband as long as we both shall live". Those words are vague, but no matter what 'expanded' definition of them anyone can come up with, if I behave badly (get impatient/angry, etc.) then, technically, I already broke the vow. I think each spouse should be on the same page and show some semblance of genuine respect for each other.
Jesus said for the hardness of your hearts God allowed for divorce as an option. I think from God's point of view every divorce is a tragedy, but nothing done by people is fool proof. Some people marry for predatory reasons, like acquiring money or kids, but most people don't marry unless they really think at the time that they can make it work. It doesn't always work.
Once someone I'd witnessed to who was engaged to be married called me. He and his fiance how you say...opened presents before Dec, 25 (had sex), and he was seriously worried that this would somehow sabotage his marriage. I asked him hypothetically do you think that if a couple did not have sex before marriage that this would guarantee they would never divorce? He said no. I said then why do you suppose doing it before marriage would guarantee you WILL divorce?
Both premarital sex and divorce, although commonplace today, still have some degree of taboo associated with them, so people get the jitters I guess, but divorce, though unpleasant, won't sabotage the rest of someone's life. Those people are still married by the way.
quote: How important is that piece of paper that says they are married if the marriage relationship is a sham? What say all?
The piece of paper is only important to society, not God. As such, God can help with the relationship if it goes awry, but the piece of paper is for society only. If a change in the relationship becomes permanent, then another piece of paper (divorce papers) is required by society.
A marriage vow IS two fold: in the politically correct remake of that movie 'Father of the Bride' the wedding is in a church. In fact, it's the biggest, most elaborate church wedding I've ever seen portrayed other than perhaps Charles and Diana's. Yet, the minister in this ceremony says, "Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of society...". Nothing about God. The "we" part of the quote is referring to society. The wording is not only redundant, it also suggests a higher form of society within society. An 'inner circle' which replaces God as the moral center. Sounds like socialism to me.
But again, a marriage vow covers both God AND society and the accountabilities for each one sometimes overlap, but the piece of paper and the nullification of it are for man, not God.
The "paper" is a record only of vows taken. I would love to see Bible verses that say God is indifferent to one keeping a vow or promise. To say it's "just a piece of paper", to me, is demeaning to the vows taken.
Yet, the minister in this ceremony says, "Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of society...". Nothing about God. The "we" part of the quote is referring to society.
johniam.......... not quite sure which denomination(s) you are talking about???
For the record....in twi, that little wedding booklet states....."Dearly Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of God...." The minister in the ceremony stated this.....and the "we" referred to the people present who were witnesses to these vows.
The booklet was given to the couple as a momento of their wedding vows.
Those verses in I Cor. 7 (just like the verse in Ephesians about "wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands") are used without conscience by abusive spouses who want to keep their victims trapped in a toxic marriage.
I have spoken to many women who struggle with those verses. They felt so strongly about those vows made before God that they sustained injury and risked death at the hands of men who couldn't care less about the Bible's stand against cruelty, but were great at finding those verses about vows, submission, and forgiveness.
I think that the Bible needs to be read with a common sense brain intact.
The context of Ephesians 5 says that husbands should love their wives "even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it." It goes on in 8 more verses to tell men to nourish and cherish their wives as their own bodies.
The context of I Corinthians 7 is "but God hath called us to peace," as Mark pointed out in the Doctrinal thread.
In my first marriage (to an alcoholic, adulterer and occasional physical abuser), I wrestled with my commitment. I finally took the loophole, "but if the unbelieving depart, let him depart" of I Cor. 7, and filed for divorce after he disappeared on yet another binge. I served the papers on him when he was in a rehab program. He continued his drinking for years following the divorce, perhaps to this day. But at least I and my daughters did not have to suffer it.
Ex #2 (emotional abuser, sexual assault, narcissistic personality, has been brought to court 3 times over non-payment of child support) sent me 2 letters telling me I should "remain unmarried, or reconciled to my husband." (I Cor. 7:11) So I wrote him, "Does that mean that YOU should never have married me, and I should be reconciled to husband #1?"
Ex #2 is back in TWI. But God has called us to peace.
This is a question that has occupied my mind for many a sleepless night. I try not to think about it but since Belle asked so politely…
My marriage ended very much like Belle’s, with my wife choosing TWI over me. I’ve had three years to ponder what happened and why. I’m sad to hear the same thing continues to occur to other marriages in TWI.
I remember the first few days after she left. I could not understand how she could do it, given the vows made, even salted before TWI’s minister. I was not willing to give up on my vows (I was brought up believing a promise is a promise, no matter what and you do whatever it takes to keep it), and was willing to do marriage counseling, of which she would have nothing to do with.
She insisted that our vows included a promise to remain faithful to TWI and that I had violated it. I pulled out the video tape of our marriage ceremony and played the vow section. Nothing about TWI. I suppose she had to have something to justify what she was doing. I don’t know.
Of course, there was more going on than just a disagreement over TWI. There are marriages that have survived one spouse leaving with the other staying, even though it puts considerable pressure on the marriage. I can’t speak for what was going on with my wife, but I was considerably sick at the time. I had severe depression, chronic fatigue, and was overall a general mess, although looking at me you would think I was just tired. The depression was what made survival of the marriage next to impossible. Stress made the depression worse, making it extremely difficult to love someone who is also the source of the stress. The opposite occurs. You only want to push back, get it away from you, to get some relief for what is going on inside your head.
Would my marriage have survived without me being sick? I don’t know. It’s another one of those questions that keeps me awake at night and I prefer not to think about it.
As for the question of keeping vows or breaking them (after those short introductory remarks), I think I have come to some sort of understanding that I can share.
What I have found concerning keeping of the vows is inadequate knowledge on how to keep them. Marriage is complicated, involving living closely with someone, making major financial decisions, major decisions that affect children, etc. There are plenty of opportunities for the vows to be tested along the way and some knowledge of how to work through them together would have proved most beneficial.
I wholeheartedly reject what TWI taught concerning marriage. The doctrine that the man is the head of the household has done more to destroy marriages than to help them. Women are not subservient to men. One is not better than the other, justifying a greater role. I am ashamed that I ever bought into this doctrine and recalling memories of when I attempted exercise of it makes me feel repugnant.
I see marriage as a partnership, for lack of a better word. Two people deciding to go through life together. A woman is better at certain things, a man better at others, but together they are stronger, both helping to complete the other. This is the “two shall become one,†as I see it. I didn’t see it before she left, but when she did, I felt as if a part of me was ripped away.
Love is great, especially for a marriage. But without respect for the other, how can you love them? Respect for what the other is really good at, respect for what the other considers important, respect for knowing that the other is a part of you, respect for knowing that the other has given up so much and committed so much to be with you.
When the disagreement over TWI hit my marriage, I found it difficult to respect her when she would not listen to my reasons and concerns. I’m sure she lost respect for me when I left and became a “cop-out.â€
Should we have worked hard, given all we had to keep our vows? Of course. Could we have done it on our own? No way. Once you’ve lost respect for each other, you no longer value what they say. It takes a third party stepping in and pointing out where both have gone wrong and how to get back on track. Unfortunately, the third party that stepped in for us was a pair of lawyers and the probate court (after the jack-foot corpse running the area did nothing but encourage her to leave).
So anyway, this is my viewpoint. It probably doesn’t apply to an abusive marriage setup, and quite frankly, that only scares me and I don’t want to go there.
As for getting remarried and it’s affect on the original vows? Once divorce occurs, do the original vows mean anything? Personally, I would love to do nothing else but to attempt to keep my original promise. But, I also know, there is absolutely nothing I can do that would help me keep it. If it is impossible to keep a promise, is a person still responsible for it. I don’t think so. If I promise to fly to Chicago on Tuesday, show up at the airport on Tuesday only to find that all flights have been cancelled, am I responsible? Can’t be.
I had a very religious cousin who married, had two children, then divorced. Her belief was that unless you can rejoin your original husband, you should remain unmarried. She has spent the last 25 years alone. It would be extremely difficult for anyone to convince me that a God of love and compassion could ever endorse such a thing.
Sorry to be so long winded. Kind of happens when you've spent too much time thinking about a particular subject.
When I took my wedding vows I had a strong belief that it was for life. And I also believed that my vow was MY vow, ie not dependent on what my partner did regarding his vow.
Flash forward almost 20 years, after said partner has broken his vows just about every way possible, and I finally wake up to the fact that my spouse is using the grace of God to do whatever he wants, while using my integrity to my vow to hold me in bondage. I figure any kind of good God never meant marriage to be this way, and get a divorce. I figure he broke the contract between us, with no remorse. Legally, I'm free to walk.
Yet, my ex says that no matter how badly he was behaving, I took a vow TO God to hold to the marriage. I say, I took a vow TO my husband BEFORE God. And God saw the vow being taken, and God saw the vow being broken over and over and over again by my ex, and God saw me giving him chance after chance, and doing everything in my power to help him get his act together, and if there really is a God, and if he really is all about love, he wouldn't expect me to be punished for the rest of my life for something someone else is doing.
Any kind of just God would not expect a lawful person to be held to a contract unknowningly made with an unlawful person. Point to any Biblical record you like to justify your belief that he would, it simply makes no sense to me, and I ain't buyin' it.
I am sorry if I offended anyone. I made the "just a piece of paper" comment out of frustration. Vows are made before God. Now the vows are crushed to pieces and ground into the dirt. Is that still a valid marriage in God's eyes? This is not in the case of a mistake here and there. It's more like not even remembering any of the promises made and not even making an attempt to carry them out.
Smurfette,
As happens more often than I'd like, I wasn't clear. Or maybe didn't say enough. I agree with you completely. Those who abuse or neglect their spouse habitually do not, imho, deserve to have them. A guy who hits his wife, for example, wouldn't want me for a judge. He'd be snuggling with "Bubba" for a VERY long time.
In your example, I do not feel it is a valid marriage any longer. Otherwise, the one who abuses or neglects has no consequence for their action which only encourages it. HOWEVER, I feel it is impossible to legislate morally or legally a "one-size-fits-all" answer to such a potentially complex situation. I think there is a great need in these cases for a LOOOOOOOT of love and care. Either to help repair a marriage or comfort the one(s) who have been hurt.
A person can break their marriage vows and abandon their spouse without ever physically leaving.
I do not believe for one SECOND that God requires us to stay in a marriage with someone who is just *pretending* to a spouse. One who take the name of spouse but is unwilling to bestow love, or care, no concern. You are nothing more to them than a warm body to get a task accomplished.
It is not always the one who files for divorce that is responsible for destroying the marriage.
I cannot imagine ones earthly parent requiring us to remain in a hurtfull situation ....I do not believe that God would either.
Do you really think God gives a flying f**k about who you're married to?
God wants your heart to sing. God wants your life to sing.
Come on, think big picture here. Our lives on Earth are a flash in the pan, a mere twinkling. Do you think that God will think badly of you if you get a divorce? if you marry someone else the second time?
Oh, He'll shake his head, "Tut tut, for shame!" and give you a time out.
Hmmm, I just can't picture that.
Yeah, God prefers that you keep the commitments you make - look at His examples, He keeps His commitments.
But do you really think that God would want you to stay in a situation where you are completely miserable just because you made a promise?
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Steve!
I don't know about that, but I have another question: if you get married in Kentucky and then divorced in Tennessee, are you still brother and sister?
bad steve!
As far as my marriage to Cindy!, it would never even enter my mind to not follow through on the vows.
Yeah, it's "just a piece of paper", but the psychological and legal benefits have been much more significant than either Cindy! or I counted on.
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Belle
Steve! but Cindy! has been previously married, right? How do her initial wedding vows figure into that?
How about me? I was married and my ex chose TWI over me. By the end the marriage was a sham. Both of us changed our minds about things we promised to do when we got married.
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Steve!
I was previously married as well.
As far as we are both concerned, if our previous partners had lived up to their vows, we'd both still be married to them. *shudder!*
When our partners walked away from their vows, in our minds it released us from ours.
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Cindy!
But only after we had repeatedly tried to get our partners to work on the marriage. To no avail.
If a marriage is in trouble and can be saved (i.e. both are willing to work on a good marriage), then the vows hold. But if one or both partners walk away from the vows and will not get help...stick a fork in it...it's done.
Life is too short.
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Steve!
YES. Life is just too darned short to spend it unhappy. In our cases, miserable.
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Nottawayfer
I spent 6 years in a terrible marriage. My ex-husband was a substance abuser. I didn't find out until 3 years into the marriage. I was shocked and felt completely betrayed when I first found drugs. I confronted him and gave him the choice to get help or get divorced. I would not tolerate substance or alcohol abuse. He went to rehab, but later he found ways to hide his problem (i.e., prescribed pain killers, mua huang aka ephedra). I got tired of it all and wanted so bad to get out. I loved him, but I hated that he wanted other things more than me or our marriage. I no longer trusted him, and it was all beyond repair IMO. I left him and divorced him. I struggled with whether I was sinning or not. He had already left twi, so I used that as my out.
Whether it was right or wrong in God's eyes, I don't know. Yes I broke my vows to him, but I also promised God that I would not get married again unless I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the marriage was going to be solid and based on love and respect for each other. It was based purely on sexual attraction the first time.
I guess we'll really know about the vows we made when the time comes. I'm not concerned about it though. I know I tried my best to keep it going the first time. My current husband and I are such kindred spirits, I don't know how we couldn't make it. Every day with him is happy and fulfilling.
:)-->
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dmiller
Here's another question to ponder --
If God joins together, and the state legalizes divorces -- isn't that a conflict of
separation of church and state??
;)-->
bad dmiller!
I was married before also, and have been divorced for a while now. The "piece of paper" and the vows made certainly did (and do) mean a lot. As in a lot of cases -- we *grew apart* (for whatever reason), and in the end we were unable to work it out.
Hearing this talk of *breaking vows*, makes me wonder where we actually broke ours, but as the years passed -- the gap between us widened. My ex is re-married (and has a child this time), and she had no qualms about the second marriage.
I have had the chance to get married again myself, but never did. Things just weren't *clicking*, but if they had -- I would have had no qualms about re-marrying either.
Nor would I have worried about the previous marriage, or vows spoken. We tried to work it out, but like Cindy! said -- "we stuck a fork in it, and found it *done*".
Not only did we not try to *break the vows*, we tried to work things out -- so if marriage were to come up in my future, I wouldn't feel guilty about the previous one at all, or the vows spoken once upon a time.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Believe me, I have my own skeletons buried in the way woods myself...I had a "way marriage"...two WOW's that met and got married, mine was the first twi wedding ever at camp Gunnison...Veepee was there hisself...
We went into the corps together and during our interim year, my wife cracked under the pressure of trying to live a pseudo cult life with a husband she didn't really know and who didn't really know her...We never should have been married to start with. She left.
Of course, being a glassy eyed fu*k chimp, I called LCM immediately, hoping for some comfort and encouragement...
;)-->...drum roll please...
With an indifferent tone in his voice, mr martinfart informs me that I am officially "out of the corps"...I am stunned. He goes on to tell me that he didn't think that I got a single thing out of my first year in residence and that I should " go find a twig somewhere"...
I think back now and I laugh about it...I wasn't laughing at the time. I went on a 6 month Scotch binge (Dewars thank you)...I finally survived the whole ordeal, like so many other things in life...this was 26 years ago, but the thing that lingers the most, was martindale's total indifference.
Happy to report that my ex went on to great things...and I'm glad she did.
Twi destroyed countless marriages...the cult experience is devastating enough for the individual...what it does to a marriage is a real horror story.
I think folks had to do what they had to do...in order to survive...I believe in the integrity of the marriage vows...but when it is a "cult marriage", and people are glassy eyed, brainwashed, and misguided...all bets are off. God made a special "out" for people in this situation:
From the bullsheeta text, "Lo, if thou art stricken with a delusional spirit, and are married thusly, and if either should go to or fro without the other...they shall be loosed from this delusional vow made in derision"
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socks
To digress for but a mo', I just wanted to say that I think that's the first use of fu*k and chimp in the same sentence, on GS. I could be wrong, but it caught my eye.
An addition to the glossary. What's the official definition on that UH? This may warrant it's own thread, dunno.
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johniam
I've been married 16 1/2 yrs. My vow was to "love, honor, cherish, and sustain her as becometh a Christian husband as long as we both shall live". Those words are vague, but no matter what 'expanded' definition of them anyone can come up with, if I behave badly (get impatient/angry, etc.) then, technically, I already broke the vow. I think each spouse should be on the same page and show some semblance of genuine respect for each other.
Jesus said for the hardness of your hearts God allowed for divorce as an option. I think from God's point of view every divorce is a tragedy, but nothing done by people is fool proof. Some people marry for predatory reasons, like acquiring money or kids, but most people don't marry unless they really think at the time that they can make it work. It doesn't always work.
Once someone I'd witnessed to who was engaged to be married called me. He and his fiance how you say...opened presents before Dec, 25 (had sex), and he was seriously worried that this would somehow sabotage his marriage. I asked him hypothetically do you think that if a couple did not have sex before marriage that this would guarantee they would never divorce? He said no. I said then why do you suppose doing it before marriage would guarantee you WILL divorce?
Both premarital sex and divorce, although commonplace today, still have some degree of taboo associated with them, so people get the jitters I guess, but divorce, though unpleasant, won't sabotage the rest of someone's life. Those people are still married by the way.
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johniam
Belle:
quote: How important is that piece of paper that says they are married if the marriage relationship is a sham? What say all?
The piece of paper is only important to society, not God. As such, God can help with the relationship if it goes awry, but the piece of paper is for society only. If a change in the relationship becomes permanent, then another piece of paper (divorce papers) is required by society.
A marriage vow IS two fold: in the politically correct remake of that movie 'Father of the Bride' the wedding is in a church. In fact, it's the biggest, most elaborate church wedding I've ever seen portrayed other than perhaps Charles and Diana's. Yet, the minister in this ceremony says, "Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of society...". Nothing about God. The "we" part of the quote is referring to society. The wording is not only redundant, it also suggests a higher form of society within society. An 'inner circle' which replaces God as the moral center. Sounds like socialism to me.
But again, a marriage vow covers both God AND society and the accountabilities for each one sometimes overlap, but the piece of paper and the nullification of it are for man, not God.
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JustThinking
The "paper" is a record only of vows taken. I would love to see Bible verses that say God is indifferent to one keeping a vow or promise. To say it's "just a piece of paper", to me, is demeaning to the vows taken.
JT
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skyrider
johniam.......... not quite sure which denomination(s) you are talking about???
For the record....in twi, that little wedding booklet states....."Dearly Beloved, we are assembled in the sight of God...." The minister in the ceremony stated this.....and the "we" referred to the people present who were witnesses to these vows.
The booklet was given to the couple as a momento of their wedding vows.
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shazdancer
Dear Belle,
Those verses in I Cor. 7 (just like the verse in Ephesians about "wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands") are used without conscience by abusive spouses who want to keep their victims trapped in a toxic marriage.
I have spoken to many women who struggle with those verses. They felt so strongly about those vows made before God that they sustained injury and risked death at the hands of men who couldn't care less about the Bible's stand against cruelty, but were great at finding those verses about vows, submission, and forgiveness.
I think that the Bible needs to be read with a common sense brain intact.
The context of Ephesians 5 says that husbands should love their wives "even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it." It goes on in 8 more verses to tell men to nourish and cherish their wives as their own bodies.
The context of I Corinthians 7 is "but God hath called us to peace," as Mark pointed out in the Doctrinal thread.
In my first marriage (to an alcoholic, adulterer and occasional physical abuser), I wrestled with my commitment. I finally took the loophole, "but if the unbelieving depart, let him depart" of I Cor. 7, and filed for divorce after he disappeared on yet another binge. I served the papers on him when he was in a rehab program. He continued his drinking for years following the divorce, perhaps to this day. But at least I and my daughters did not have to suffer it.
Ex #2 (emotional abuser, sexual assault, narcissistic personality, has been brought to court 3 times over non-payment of child support) sent me 2 letters telling me I should "remain unmarried, or reconciled to my husband." (I Cor. 7:11) So I wrote him, "Does that mean that YOU should never have married me, and I should be reconciled to husband #1?"
Ex #2 is back in TWI. But God has called us to peace.
Regards,
Shaz
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justloafing
Great post Shaz
;)-->
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smurfette
I am sorry if I offended anyone. I made the "just a piece of paper" comment out of frustration.
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Bob
This is a question that has occupied my mind for many a sleepless night. I try not to think about it but since Belle asked so politely…
My marriage ended very much like Belle’s, with my wife choosing TWI over me. I’ve had three years to ponder what happened and why. I’m sad to hear the same thing continues to occur to other marriages in TWI.
I remember the first few days after she left. I could not understand how she could do it, given the vows made, even salted before TWI’s minister. I was not willing to give up on my vows (I was brought up believing a promise is a promise, no matter what and you do whatever it takes to keep it), and was willing to do marriage counseling, of which she would have nothing to do with.
She insisted that our vows included a promise to remain faithful to TWI and that I had violated it. I pulled out the video tape of our marriage ceremony and played the vow section. Nothing about TWI. I suppose she had to have something to justify what she was doing. I don’t know.
Of course, there was more going on than just a disagreement over TWI. There are marriages that have survived one spouse leaving with the other staying, even though it puts considerable pressure on the marriage. I can’t speak for what was going on with my wife, but I was considerably sick at the time. I had severe depression, chronic fatigue, and was overall a general mess, although looking at me you would think I was just tired. The depression was what made survival of the marriage next to impossible. Stress made the depression worse, making it extremely difficult to love someone who is also the source of the stress. The opposite occurs. You only want to push back, get it away from you, to get some relief for what is going on inside your head.
Would my marriage have survived without me being sick? I don’t know. It’s another one of those questions that keeps me awake at night and I prefer not to think about it.
As for the question of keeping vows or breaking them (after those short introductory remarks), I think I have come to some sort of understanding that I can share.
What I have found concerning keeping of the vows is inadequate knowledge on how to keep them. Marriage is complicated, involving living closely with someone, making major financial decisions, major decisions that affect children, etc. There are plenty of opportunities for the vows to be tested along the way and some knowledge of how to work through them together would have proved most beneficial.
I wholeheartedly reject what TWI taught concerning marriage. The doctrine that the man is the head of the household has done more to destroy marriages than to help them. Women are not subservient to men. One is not better than the other, justifying a greater role. I am ashamed that I ever bought into this doctrine and recalling memories of when I attempted exercise of it makes me feel repugnant.
I see marriage as a partnership, for lack of a better word. Two people deciding to go through life together. A woman is better at certain things, a man better at others, but together they are stronger, both helping to complete the other. This is the “two shall become one,†as I see it. I didn’t see it before she left, but when she did, I felt as if a part of me was ripped away.
Love is great, especially for a marriage. But without respect for the other, how can you love them? Respect for what the other is really good at, respect for what the other considers important, respect for knowing that the other is a part of you, respect for knowing that the other has given up so much and committed so much to be with you.
When the disagreement over TWI hit my marriage, I found it difficult to respect her when she would not listen to my reasons and concerns. I’m sure she lost respect for me when I left and became a “cop-out.â€
Should we have worked hard, given all we had to keep our vows? Of course. Could we have done it on our own? No way. Once you’ve lost respect for each other, you no longer value what they say. It takes a third party stepping in and pointing out where both have gone wrong and how to get back on track. Unfortunately, the third party that stepped in for us was a pair of lawyers and the probate court (after the jack-foot corpse running the area did nothing but encourage her to leave).
So anyway, this is my viewpoint. It probably doesn’t apply to an abusive marriage setup, and quite frankly, that only scares me and I don’t want to go there.
As for getting remarried and it’s affect on the original vows? Once divorce occurs, do the original vows mean anything? Personally, I would love to do nothing else but to attempt to keep my original promise. But, I also know, there is absolutely nothing I can do that would help me keep it. If it is impossible to keep a promise, is a person still responsible for it. I don’t think so. If I promise to fly to Chicago on Tuesday, show up at the airport on Tuesday only to find that all flights have been cancelled, am I responsible? Can’t be.
I had a very religious cousin who married, had two children, then divorced. Her belief was that unless you can rejoin your original husband, you should remain unmarried. She has spent the last 25 years alone. It would be extremely difficult for anyone to convince me that a God of love and compassion could ever endorse such a thing.
Sorry to be so long winded. Kind of happens when you've spent too much time thinking about a particular subject.
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Bob
Gee, that was long-winded.
Sorry for the brain-dump.
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TheHighWay
When I took my wedding vows I had a strong belief that it was for life. And I also believed that my vow was MY vow, ie not dependent on what my partner did regarding his vow.
Flash forward almost 20 years, after said partner has broken his vows just about every way possible, and I finally wake up to the fact that my spouse is using the grace of God to do whatever he wants, while using my integrity to my vow to hold me in bondage. I figure any kind of good God never meant marriage to be this way, and get a divorce. I figure he broke the contract between us, with no remorse. Legally, I'm free to walk.
Yet, my ex says that no matter how badly he was behaving, I took a vow TO God to hold to the marriage. I say, I took a vow TO my husband BEFORE God. And God saw the vow being taken, and God saw the vow being broken over and over and over again by my ex, and God saw me giving him chance after chance, and doing everything in my power to help him get his act together, and if there really is a God, and if he really is all about love, he wouldn't expect me to be punished for the rest of my life for something someone else is doing.
Any kind of just God would not expect a lawful person to be held to a contract unknowningly made with an unlawful person. Point to any Biblical record you like to justify your belief that he would, it simply makes no sense to me, and I ain't buyin' it.
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JustThinking
Smurfette,
As happens more often than I'd like, I wasn't clear. Or maybe didn't say enough. I agree with you completely. Those who abuse or neglect their spouse habitually do not, imho, deserve to have them. A guy who hits his wife, for example, wouldn't want me for a judge. He'd be snuggling with "Bubba" for a VERY long time.
In your example, I do not feel it is a valid marriage any longer. Otherwise, the one who abuses or neglects has no consequence for their action which only encourages it. HOWEVER, I feel it is impossible to legislate morally or legally a "one-size-fits-all" answer to such a potentially complex situation. I think there is a great need in these cases for a LOOOOOOOT of love and care. Either to help repair a marriage or comfort the one(s) who have been hurt.
JT
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Cindy!
The Highway...I totally and completely agree.
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shazdancer
Dear Bob,
I loved what you said. If that is your "dump," I can't wait to hear what you say when you're being thoughtful!
Dear TheHighWay,
Yes!
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
A person can break their marriage vows and abandon their spouse without ever physically leaving.
I do not believe for one SECOND that God requires us to stay in a marriage with someone who is just *pretending* to a spouse. One who take the name of spouse but is unwilling to bestow love, or care, no concern. You are nothing more to them than a warm body to get a task accomplished.
It is not always the one who files for divorce that is responsible for destroying the marriage.
I cannot imagine ones earthly parent requiring us to remain in a hurtfull situation ....I do not believe that God would either.
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Steve!
Do you really think God gives a flying f**k about who you're married to?
God wants your heart to sing. God wants your life to sing.
Come on, think big picture here. Our lives on Earth are a flash in the pan, a mere twinkling. Do you think that God will think badly of you if you get a divorce? if you marry someone else the second time?
Oh, He'll shake his head, "Tut tut, for shame!" and give you a time out.
Hmmm, I just can't picture that.
Yeah, God prefers that you keep the commitments you make - look at His examples, He keeps His commitments.
But do you really think that God would want you to stay in a situation where you are completely miserable just because you made a promise?
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