If free will means you can choose any course of action, thing etc. Lets assume there is only one correct choice. Then there are many more wrong choices than the single right one, because there are often more than just two choices. After one or two wrong choices it gets harder figure out the next right choice because the concequences/results of prevoius decisions effect current and future choices. For instance was it a correct choice to take PFAL and participate in TWI?
It seems to me when talking about slavery in the New Testament particularly in reference to "sin"
We are given a choice- slavery to sin or slavery to God as a doulos- Either way is slavery. Either way we don't find out the "eternal concequences" until later. Most people seem to prefer the easy way to simple and immediate security- even when they see it is self destructive.
Thoughtful writers have debated this since the beginning, but especially in wake of the many views that arose during the Reformation. So, Calvin & Luther (his excellent "Bondage of the Will" is worth a read) maintained man has essentially no free will, while the Arminians of all stripes came in on the other side. Libraries could be filled...
The Bible has precious little to say about "free" will, except that ours should be submitted to God's will. It has lots to say of God's will. After all, that is the subject matter.
I think it's simply a matter of perspective. Nobody is shoving us around making our every choice for us (and nobody except the most extreme Calvinist would say so), so from our POV, we have free will. On the other hand, God works all things after the counsel of his own will, causes all things to work together for good, etc. So from that perspective, it's all in God's hands.
It's a choice to be made. Choosing to do the Lord's will, is a choice therefore slavery in it's many possible definitions could be what it is. Taking yourSELF and doing God's will. Or taking yourself out of the picture and see what it is that is there within.
Of course God's will is another debate I suppose. Some things are clear, others are not.
A progressive growing imo. Things that are clear you can count on-like Love-number one.
A slave to sin? I look at differently. It's not our fault that this happened. But choices can be made wether or not to FREE yourself from it.
It has to come from the heart, the desire to know, to get answers. A deep desire to know God. I believe He respects that.
What does it mean to be saved? What are we saved from? Death? And more? What will be saved? What replaces that sin nature? Is it still there but can be beaten? And where does the new nature come from? What does it mean to be born again? A BIG question?
Will all be saved? lol We shall see. Can a person be pure evil? And nothing more?
Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
There are more scriptures for the subject.
Something has to die in order for there to be Life.
There are always dilemmas and dichotomies involved.
St Augustine said "love God and do what you will," not as an ecouragement to full licence for that will but because he believed the will would be modified by that loving.
But I am also amazed about how much religion emphasises the freedom of the will and then punishes you for excercising it - one's freedom is limited by their definitions - when one questions them, one questions God etc etc.
we are probably on the same wave length-just limited by the words we use
1 Corinthians 15:35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
the dead raised up is talked about in Romans and other places...
alive from the dead-now
that which thou sowest is not made alive, except it die
a seed which is dead by itself....sown....will bring forth life
We are on the same wavelength, CM. What I was focusing on is who does the freeing. Do we free ourselves from sin, or are we freed by somebody else? The answer, of course, is self-evident from the references you give above.
The worst most cruel doctrine that I know of is when you combine predestination with eternal torment. This means some would be predestinated to eternal torment while others would be predestined to heaven. In this scenario one does not even have a real choice in receiving salvation. It is all predestined. The only way predestination would make sense is if some would be predestined to eternal life now, but that God would have a plan of reconciliation for all the others who He did not choose in the first fruits from the dead.
Actually the term for the doctrine you're speaking of, Mark, is election. They get the term from Rom. 9. Predestination, as a theological term, has more overarching considerations that focus on the final outcome of all things on earth & in heaven.
If one is serious about the Bible, I don't see how one can honestly deny predestination. But the doctrine of election is another matter. The more I look at it, the more I see holes. Yes, I read Rom 9. No, it's not written to the Gentiles of Jews or whatever Wierwille said.
By the same token, the more I look at it, the less I see salvation as our choice, and the more I see it as God's sovereign grace reaching down to man and enlightening a dark place with light. We need that revelation from in order to receive him. before that we are utterly in darkness and without hope. Like the disciples, we are incapable of knowing Christ for who he is until, like peter, it is revealed to us.
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ckeer
A couple of thoughts:
If free will means you can choose any course of action, thing etc. Lets assume there is only one correct choice. Then there are many more wrong choices than the single right one, because there are often more than just two choices. After one or two wrong choices it gets harder figure out the next right choice because the concequences/results of prevoius decisions effect current and future choices. For instance was it a correct choice to take PFAL and participate in TWI?
It seems to me when talking about slavery in the New Testament particularly in reference to "sin"
We are given a choice- slavery to sin or slavery to God as a doulos- Either way is slavery. Either way we don't find out the "eternal concequences" until later. Most people seem to prefer the easy way to simple and immediate security- even when they see it is self destructive.
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TheEvan
Thoughtful writers have debated this since the beginning, but especially in wake of the many views that arose during the Reformation. So, Calvin & Luther (his excellent "Bondage of the Will" is worth a read) maintained man has essentially no free will, while the Arminians of all stripes came in on the other side. Libraries could be filled...
The Bible has precious little to say about "free" will, except that ours should be submitted to God's will. It has lots to say of God's will. After all, that is the subject matter.
I think it's simply a matter of perspective. Nobody is shoving us around making our every choice for us (and nobody except the most extreme Calvinist would say so), so from our POV, we have free will. On the other hand, God works all things after the counsel of his own will, causes all things to work together for good, etc. So from that perspective, it's all in God's hands.
Seems simple enough to me.
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CM
A matter of the heart's choices...
Slavery....I suppose you could call it that.
It's a choice to be made. Choosing to do the Lord's will, is a choice therefore slavery in it's many possible definitions could be what it is. Taking yourSELF and doing God's will. Or taking yourself out of the picture and see what it is that is there within.
Of course God's will is another debate I suppose. Some things are clear, others are not.
A progressive growing imo. Things that are clear you can count on-like Love-number one.
A slave to sin? I look at differently. It's not our fault that this happened. But choices can be made wether or not to FREE yourself from it.
It has to come from the heart, the desire to know, to get answers. A deep desire to know God. I believe He respects that.
What does it mean to be saved? What are we saved from? Death? And more? What will be saved? What replaces that sin nature? Is it still there but can be beaten? And where does the new nature come from? What does it mean to be born again? A BIG question?
Will all be saved? lol We shall see. Can a person be pure evil? And nothing more?
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TheEvan
Not to nit pick, but this is a misnomer, biblically. It's not possible to free ourselves from sin.
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CM
Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
There are more scriptures for the subject.
Something has to die in order for there to be Life.
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def59
Bottom line: God is sovereign.
He chooses to form us in the way that suits him. He gives us a purpose: To dilligently seek Him and honor him in all that we do.
In the broad sense our will is in rebellion toward God. So there's no choice other than to sin.
In the narrow sense, we who trust in Jesus have choices every day whether to honor God or not.
God says he loves those he loves and hates those he hates. So where do we fit in?
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CM
Free from sin-
Of course a person can still sin, but that is his mistake. And not taking advantage of being made free from sin.
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Trefor Heywood
There are always dilemmas and dichotomies involved.
St Augustine said "love God and do what you will," not as an ecouragement to full licence for that will but because he believed the will would be modified by that loving.
But I am also amazed about how much religion emphasises the freedom of the will and then punishes you for excercising it - one's freedom is limited by their definitions - when one questions them, one questions God etc etc.
TWI is far from unique in this respect.
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CM
A little more to chew on TheEvan...
and I'm not calling you a fool btw
we are probably on the same wave length-just limited by the words we use
1 Corinthians 15:35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
the dead raised up is talked about in Romans and other places...
alive from the dead-now
that which thou sowest is not made alive, except it die
a seed which is dead by itself....sown....will bring forth life
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TheEvan
We are on the same wavelength, CM. What I was focusing on is who does the freeing. Do we free ourselves from sin, or are we freed by somebody else? The answer, of course, is self-evident from the references you give above.
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alfakat
over-emphasis on "freeing ones-self" was the road down for twi...a shame it took so long to accept that, speaking for my own life and walk...
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Mark Sanguinetti
The worst most cruel doctrine that I know of is when you combine predestination with eternal torment. This means some would be predestinated to eternal torment while others would be predestined to heaven. In this scenario one does not even have a real choice in receiving salvation. It is all predestined. The only way predestination would make sense is if some would be predestined to eternal life now, but that God would have a plan of reconciliation for all the others who He did not choose in the first fruits from the dead.
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CM
Yes-TheEvan....yeah God does the freeing.
There is a little required on our part though.
Just to reach out for it.
Yeah alfakat-the focus was on man and not God...
Mark-predestination...what a tough nut to crack.
The call is out to everyone I think.
I haven't got into the subject much myself but
God is Love-that I believe.
If something is going to go to eternal torment we don't want it anyway.
Problem is that the thinking is that one person
or another is destined for eternal whatever.
A different perspective would be that what we individually will be sifted as wheat.
Instead of mankind as a whole.
Separating what's inside the person instead of
separating people.
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TheEvan
Actually the term for the doctrine you're speaking of, Mark, is election. They get the term from Rom. 9. Predestination, as a theological term, has more overarching considerations that focus on the final outcome of all things on earth & in heaven.
If one is serious about the Bible, I don't see how one can honestly deny predestination. But the doctrine of election is another matter. The more I look at it, the more I see holes. Yes, I read Rom 9. No, it's not written to the Gentiles of Jews or whatever Wierwille said.
By the same token, the more I look at it, the less I see salvation as our choice, and the more I see it as God's sovereign grace reaching down to man and enlightening a dark place with light. We need that revelation from in order to receive him. before that we are utterly in darkness and without hope. Like the disciples, we are incapable of knowing Christ for who he is until, like peter, it is revealed to us.
Sorry for the rambling...
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CM
Amen brother!
:)-->
Election....hmmmmmm
Is that where God elects some but not others?
Does God or the person have more to do with it.
I think it's a 2 party decision....
I think God wants all to know Christ.
In other words if someone wants know Christ
I don't think he will be denyed.
Preconceived ideas are usually the thing
holding people back from opening up to God
opening the eyes of our understanding imo.
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CM
I hope that don't sound like I'm focusing on man again.
I think of it as taking a step forward to want to know God/Christ then taking a step back and letting him reveal it to us.
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def59
Evan
As always you sum up the point well.
Def
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socks
Is that my only choice?
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