It would be a tough one to really expose with full honesty,Hairy....For example,Mark McGwire has been retired for several years now...Unless he admits to it,how do you prove he was on steroids the year he hit 70 home runs?....But if they expose Bonds,who's still playing,does he get an asterisk and not McGwire?
I think Major League Baseball will have to live with the rules it makes and enforces,and ultimately pay the price,sans asterisks * in the record books...In the "dead ball era",Babe Ruth shattered the home run record with a whopping 29 homeruns....MLB picked up on the popularity of the home run and livened the ball,and not only Ruth,but other sluggers as well(Hack Wilson-56 hr's in 1930)took advantage of the slugging era in Baseball...
I agree that it cheapens the records....but hopefully with a full exposure on steroids use in MLB,baseball will return to what it once was instead of juiced up behemoths swingin' for the fences...
If they could prove that he has done something illegal or against the rules, i wouldn't have a problem -right where he is--sending him packing. I doubt it would happen, but like Shoeless Joe Jackson and the 1919 Black Sox, it may be stern but it is a situation that needs to be addressed to keep the integrity of the game alive.
More likely the way we look at the early part of the 20th Century as the deadball era, in 40-50- 80 years people may look upon this era as the 'artificially induced record era' or something to that effect and numbers will only be a partial criteria for judging the alltime greats, and mental adjustments will be made to fit this era properly into history.
Of course on a positive note my hopes are that this period will be known as the beginning of RedSox Century ;)-->
The question may not be whether Bonds will have an asterisk next to his name in the record book but whether he will be indicted for perjury for lying to a grand jury.
Me too Steve, I say give the record back to Maris, the others cheated to get thier so-called records and why reward them with drugs and cheating. Bonds makes me puke any way. LOLMAO
The number one hitter (total hits) in baseball history was banned from baseball and the Hall of Fame. I doubt his gambling had any effect on the number of hits he made. If they can prove any of these steroid charges, ban them all. (I'd like to think that Sammy Sosa actually got his without the juice, but let the chips fall where they may.)
If they do anything to the record books it will do more harm than good IMO. One thing about baseball that is different from the other three major pro sports is that EVERY player must be a complete player. Every player must hit, field, and run the bases with the same skill level. Sure, pitchers are allowed to not be good hitters and power hitters are allowed to hit .250 instead of .280 but every player has to be on the same page whether they're at bat, in the field, or on the bases. The other sports are not like this.
We all remember the embarassing Leon Lett play on Thanksgiving day of what? 1993? Leon was an all pro defensive lineman, but his lack of knowledge of the rules of the game regarding special teams cost his team that game. Football, basketball, and hockey players are specialists: they know and apply one phase of their game and that's it. If they stray from their sphere of expertise all hell can break loose. Not in baseball.
In baseball if it's game 7 and the bases are loaded with 2 out and the game is on the line, the consequences are the same no matter who's up to bat and no matter who's pitching. Remember game 1 of the 1988 series? The 'godfather of steroids' hit a grand slam home run that hit the center field camera giving the A's a 4-3 lead, but gimp Kirk Gibson had the final say.
Steroids seem to only pad statistics, not bring championships. Like Simon says, there's no way to prove when any player used them and how much they affected any particular at bat. Any zero tolerance policy would probably take the fun out of the game for fans.
In 2001 I saw McGwire hit a home run over the center field fence at Busch Stadium off Greg Maddux. I was sitting in the 4th row of the upper deck about 75 feet from the left field foul pole so I had a good cross sectional view of it. It was awesome! I don't care if he drank toxic waste, that was just too cool.
Those who take steroids are harming themselves more than anyone else. There's always going to be kids stupid enough to buy that any chance they have to make it in the pros depends on steroids. It's like rock stars and drugs: eventually enough people are going to be harmed that fewer and fewer people will want to take them.
oH YA what if its not harmfull????gimme a break, but it is harmful and it KILLS and ultimately destroys thier bodys. What do you think put Mark Maguier out of the game so soon. Mark lives in the next city from us and we see him from time to time and he really looks bad, he's coaching his son's little league or pony league. He's a really nice guy too, always has time to stop and talk if ya run into him. LOVE THAT GUY.
Steroids seem to only pad statistics, not bring championships. Like Simon says, there's no way to prove when any player used them and how much they affected any particular at bat. Any zero tolerance policy would probably take the fun out of the game for fans.
"Padding statistics" takes the fun out of the game for me.
And you're right. Since you couldn't tell which at-bats were tainted by steroid use, they should ALL be thrown out for anyone proven to have used them.
Since you couldn't tell which at-bats were tainted by steroid use, they should ALL be thrown out for anyone proven to have used them.
So, should I get rid of all my 60s music because the artists used pot and acid? Should I get rid of my Sherlock Holmes books because Doyle was a spiritualist? Just how big of a "scorched earth" policy are we talking about here?
ya know... I hate, absolutely hate, that they're enhancing their abilities 'illegally'... but while I do hate it, and disagree with it, I see some of Canseco's point... it's here, it's gonna be here... and it's been here for a while...
there was a scientist/doctor guy on the radio the other day (one of the ones who testified as well) and he says there's nothing that can be done about it... if someone wants to use and not get caught, if they wanna pay for it and follow the program, they'll never get caught... he says there's a 100 balco's out there right now... he swears that there's not a test that can't be beat, a steroid that can't be masked...
so... as much as I hate it, there's nothing we can do about it...
Congress can flex their muscles, but we need to keep it out of the hands of youth and non professionals... I think that's where it can be stopped... and that's where it does the most damage... unsupervised and un-sterile black market steroids not meant for human consumption are where the horror stories come from... and by and large they're from amateurs...
the old guys want an asterisk for the juiced ball era, then the others want one for the era since the mound's been lowered, then the others want one for when the parks were bigger... it's just change... I don't like it on bit... but there's really nothing that can be done to stop it... at the professional level...
...we should concentrate on the youth and amateur athletics...
Since you couldn't tell which at-bats were tainted by steroid use, they should ALL be thrown out for anyone proven to have used them.
So, should I get rid of all my 60s music because the artists used pot and acid? Should I get rid of my Sherlock Holmes books because Doyle was a spiritualist? Just how big of a "scorched earth" policy are we talking about here?
Talk about a non sequitur! If you feel that the spiritual nature of 60's rock or Conan Doyle's writings are a concern, then, yes, YOU should get rid of all those items in your home. what that has to do with professional athletes cheating escapes me. -->
the old guys want an asterisk for the juiced ball era, then the others want one for the era since the mound's been lowered, then the others want one for when the parks were bigger... it's just change... I don't like it on bit... but there's really nothing that can be done to stop it... at the professional level...
...we should concentrate on the youth and amateur athletics...
How? By saying that all their heroes cheat? Be the best you can, Billy; but don't do it the way Bonds, Canseco, and others do? No, there's nothing we can do about it, and they won't be punished, but you have to do it differently!
Somehow, I doubt that that will fly with the kids...
Talk about a non sequitur! If you feel that the spiritual nature of 60's rock or Conan Doyle's writings are a concern, then, yes, YOU should get rid of all those items in your home. what that has to do with professional athletes cheating escapes me.
You missed my point. I have no concern whatsoever with the spiritual nature of anything discussed on this thread. My point is: if there is entertainment value to be found in pro sports, music, or literature, then I'm not going to pretend that I'm not entertained anymore just because of a few cheaters. You can bring all pro athletes to the 'junk table' if you wish, but I'm going to enjoy my entertainment choices even if it means ignoring some dirty laundry. By taking your stand, you are not only throwing out the baby with the bath water, you're throwing out the bath tub and the water supply as well.
Well,it's like Rocky told me the other day,Rafael Palmeiro did not take steroids,but he was pitching other performance enhancing drugs...
Good points made here all around,but I have to agree with George about 'tell that to the kids'..It's common knowledge at my kid's school that some of the senior athletes are on steroids...Many highschool ballplayers have visions of making it to the pros...Why do you think they all own wooden bats?....
This isn't about athletes being role models....This is about athletes outlining their formula for success:learn the fundamentals,practice and take plenty of steroids...BTW,StayedTooLong,they were illegal at the time Bonds and McGwire were alleged to have used them...
So now Barry Bonds may sit out the whole season, or maybe just half of it, because of his knee surgery. How convenient. Anybody want to bet that we'll see a much smaller Bonds when he comes back, maybe something closer to the 185 pounds he weighed in Pittsburgh than the 235 that he is now? Of course, knowing Barry, this might all be b.s. and he'll be in the Giants lineup on opening day. If only the evil media will stop trying to destroy him. -->
Personally, I think the main reason that players shouldn't use steroids is that THEY'RE AGAINST THE RULES! It gives some players an unfair advantage. I know that's naive of me to think that way, but if baseball had a real testing policy they could probably cut steroid use way down. I don't believe they'll ever do away with them permanently anymore than they can get rid of pitchers doctoring baseballs.
I'm not really much of a baseball fan and the only time I really pay attention to it is during the playoffs and the World Series. Should I care if Jose Canseco went from a basically easygoing guy to one who likes to beat up women and little guys in bars, possibly a symptom of "roid rage?" Should I care if Gary Sheffield damages his liver? Should I care if Jason Giambi's hair falls out? Should I care if Barry Bonds' testicles shrivel up? Probably not.
You can't go back and take away any records or add any asterisks to them, but baseball can make a real effort to try to keep steroids out of the game. Of course the real power in baseball, the Players Association, will never let that happen.
Personally I think the International Olympic Committee should take the medals away from all those Russian and East German "female" swimmers and runners from the 70s and 80s. They were juiced up with so much testosterone that they had to shave their faces every day and they had voices like Barry White.
I read that story,and I'm hypothesizing a few things,myself...Like maybe Barry's conscience is getting to him...He's in a no-win situation,now...If he breaks the career homerun record,he'll get booed,knowing within himself he cheated to do it...Plus if he keeps playing,he'll increase his chances of getting caught using steroids and removing all doubt....Or,as Pirate suggests,he quits using them,goes back to being a 185 pound 41-year-old and can't hit the ball out of the park with the same frequency and doesn't reach the record...
Maybe he can live with beating McGwire's record....a fellow 'roid's user....But Aaron's?....A guy who dealt with more racism than Bonds will ever imagine,a hero who did it cleanly...
This may be the most diplomatic way for Bonds to gracefully bow out of this mess..Take time off to heal an injury,even the whole year...By the following year you're a year older and decide to hang 'em up for good,and the public understands...The hr record doesn't get broken,so he stops getting hounded about using steroids,past and current..He won't have to worry about perjuring himself...And he'll be able to look Hank Aaron and every Yankee fan in the eye...
How? By saying that all their heroes cheat? Be the best you can, Billy; but don't do it the way Bonds, Canseco, and others do? No, there's nothing we can do about it, and they won't be punished, but you have to do it differently!
Somehow, I doubt that that will fly with the kids...
I don't think it will either... and that's not what I was getting at... I don't know what the solution is or will be, but I'd go for more stringent testing and education with the youth and amateurs...
ANY positive tests and you're out. Period. The Pros can afford to beat the tests, the amateurs can't. That's part of my point I think... education and testing, lots more of it, on the youth and amateur levels...
and FEAR... put the fear that they'll never be able to compete in their sport again in them... at least until they're pro... I'm no expert, not hardly, but it would be a better than we have now... people looking the other way... and there should be some repurcussions for the coaches who turn a blind eye...
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simonzelotes
It would be a tough one to really expose with full honesty,Hairy....For example,Mark McGwire has been retired for several years now...Unless he admits to it,how do you prove he was on steroids the year he hit 70 home runs?....But if they expose Bonds,who's still playing,does he get an asterisk and not McGwire?
I think Major League Baseball will have to live with the rules it makes and enforces,and ultimately pay the price,sans asterisks * in the record books...In the "dead ball era",Babe Ruth shattered the home run record with a whopping 29 homeruns....MLB picked up on the popularity of the home run and livened the ball,and not only Ruth,but other sluggers as well(Hack Wilson-56 hr's in 1930)took advantage of the slugging era in Baseball...
I agree that it cheapens the records....but hopefully with a full exposure on steroids use in MLB,baseball will return to what it once was instead of juiced up behemoths swingin' for the fences...
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mstar1
If they could prove that he has done something illegal or against the rules, i wouldn't have a problem -right where he is--sending him packing. I doubt it would happen, but like Shoeless Joe Jackson and the 1919 Black Sox, it may be stern but it is a situation that needs to be addressed to keep the integrity of the game alive.
More likely the way we look at the early part of the 20th Century as the deadball era, in 40-50- 80 years people may look upon this era as the 'artificially induced record era' or something to that effect and numbers will only be a partial criteria for judging the alltime greats, and mental adjustments will be made to fit this era properly into history.
Of course on a positive note my hopes are that this period will be known as the beginning of RedSox Century
;)-->
(Its been 5 weeks and I'm still on cloud 9)
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Pirate1974
The question may not be whether Bonds will have an asterisk next to his name in the record book but whether he will be indicted for perjury for lying to a grand jury.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Perhaps a needle next to his name would be more appropriate!
;)-->
George
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Steve!
I think the rat should be removed from the record book entirely.
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wyteduv58
Me too Steve, I say give the record back to Maris, the others cheated to get thier so-called records and why reward them with drugs and cheating. Bonds makes me puke any way. LOLMAO
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GeorgeStGeorge
The number one hitter (total hits) in baseball history was banned from baseball and the Hall of Fame. I doubt his gambling had any effect on the number of hits he made. If they can prove any of these steroid charges, ban them all. (I'd like to think that Sammy Sosa actually got his without the juice, but let the chips fall where they may.)
George
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johniam
If they do anything to the record books it will do more harm than good IMO. One thing about baseball that is different from the other three major pro sports is that EVERY player must be a complete player. Every player must hit, field, and run the bases with the same skill level. Sure, pitchers are allowed to not be good hitters and power hitters are allowed to hit .250 instead of .280 but every player has to be on the same page whether they're at bat, in the field, or on the bases. The other sports are not like this.
We all remember the embarassing Leon Lett play on Thanksgiving day of what? 1993? Leon was an all pro defensive lineman, but his lack of knowledge of the rules of the game regarding special teams cost his team that game. Football, basketball, and hockey players are specialists: they know and apply one phase of their game and that's it. If they stray from their sphere of expertise all hell can break loose. Not in baseball.
In baseball if it's game 7 and the bases are loaded with 2 out and the game is on the line, the consequences are the same no matter who's up to bat and no matter who's pitching. Remember game 1 of the 1988 series? The 'godfather of steroids' hit a grand slam home run that hit the center field camera giving the A's a 4-3 lead, but gimp Kirk Gibson had the final say.
Steroids seem to only pad statistics, not bring championships. Like Simon says, there's no way to prove when any player used them and how much they affected any particular at bat. Any zero tolerance policy would probably take the fun out of the game for fans.
In 2001 I saw McGwire hit a home run over the center field fence at Busch Stadium off Greg Maddux. I was sitting in the 4th row of the upper deck about 75 feet from the left field foul pole so I had a good cross sectional view of it. It was awesome! I don't care if he drank toxic waste, that was just too cool.
Those who take steroids are harming themselves more than anyone else. There's always going to be kids stupid enough to buy that any chance they have to make it in the pros depends on steroids. It's like rock stars and drugs: eventually enough people are going to be harmed that fewer and fewer people will want to take them.
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Stayed Too Long
As equipment improves a person can jump higher, throw further, run faster, and hit harder. This is allowed when breaking records.
I believe the same should be true of what is put in the body. To my knowledge there were no rules against taking steroids at the time.
What if they were not harmful and had no side effects, would it be okay to use them then?
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wyteduv58
As far as I know it is illegal to take any drugs or ahlcohol before a game thats why they do drug tests.
I could be wrong now.
But I don't think so.
its a jungle out there,
its a jungle out there......THE MONK.
IV'E SEEN HIGH SCHOOL JOCKS KILL THEMSELVES ON STERIODS JUST TO BE THE BEST
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wyteduv58
oH YA what if its not harmfull????gimme a break, but it is harmful and it KILLS and ultimately destroys thier bodys. What do you think put Mark Maguier out of the game so soon. Mark lives in the next city from us and we see him from time to time and he really looks bad, he's coaching his son's little league or pony league. He's a really nice guy too, always has time to stop and talk if ya run into him. LOVE THAT GUY.
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johniam
Yes, because everybody would use them.
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wyteduv58
I just found out today that steriods ARE dangerous and also now illegal.
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GeorgeStGeorge
"Padding statistics" takes the fun out of the game for me.
And you're right. Since you couldn't tell which at-bats were tainted by steroid use, they should ALL be thrown out for anyone proven to have used them.
George
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johniam
So, should I get rid of all my 60s music because the artists used pot and acid? Should I get rid of my Sherlock Holmes books because Doyle was a spiritualist? Just how big of a "scorched earth" policy are we talking about here?
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Tom Strange
ya know... I hate, absolutely hate, that they're enhancing their abilities 'illegally'... but while I do hate it, and disagree with it, I see some of Canseco's point... it's here, it's gonna be here... and it's been here for a while...
there was a scientist/doctor guy on the radio the other day (one of the ones who testified as well) and he says there's nothing that can be done about it... if someone wants to use and not get caught, if they wanna pay for it and follow the program, they'll never get caught... he says there's a 100 balco's out there right now... he swears that there's not a test that can't be beat, a steroid that can't be masked...
so... as much as I hate it, there's nothing we can do about it...
Congress can flex their muscles, but we need to keep it out of the hands of youth and non professionals... I think that's where it can be stopped... and that's where it does the most damage... unsupervised and un-sterile black market steroids not meant for human consumption are where the horror stories come from... and by and large they're from amateurs...
the old guys want an asterisk for the juiced ball era, then the others want one for the era since the mound's been lowered, then the others want one for when the parks were bigger... it's just change... I don't like it on bit... but there's really nothing that can be done to stop it... at the professional level...
...we should concentrate on the youth and amateur athletics...
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GeorgeStGeorge
Talk about a non sequitur! If you feel that the spiritual nature of 60's rock or Conan Doyle's writings are a concern, then, yes, YOU should get rid of all those items in your home. what that has to do with professional athletes cheating escapes me.
-->
George
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GeorgeStGeorge
How? By saying that all their heroes cheat? Be the best you can, Billy; but don't do it the way Bonds, Canseco, and others do? No, there's nothing we can do about it, and they won't be punished, but you have to do it differently!
Somehow, I doubt that that will fly with the kids...
George
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johniam
You missed my point. I have no concern whatsoever with the spiritual nature of anything discussed on this thread. My point is: if there is entertainment value to be found in pro sports, music, or literature, then I'm not going to pretend that I'm not entertained anymore just because of a few cheaters. You can bring all pro athletes to the 'junk table' if you wish, but I'm going to enjoy my entertainment choices even if it means ignoring some dirty laundry. By taking your stand, you are not only throwing out the baby with the bath water, you're throwing out the bath tub and the water supply as well.
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simonzelotes
Well,it's like Rocky told me the other day,Rafael Palmeiro did not take steroids,but he was pitching other performance enhancing drugs...
Good points made here all around,but I have to agree with George about 'tell that to the kids'..It's common knowledge at my kid's school that some of the senior athletes are on steroids...Many highschool ballplayers have visions of making it to the pros...Why do you think they all own wooden bats?....
This isn't about athletes being role models....This is about athletes outlining their formula for success:learn the fundamentals,practice and take plenty of steroids...BTW,StayedTooLong,they were illegal at the time Bonds and McGwire were alleged to have used them...
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GeorgeStGeorge
No, just throwing out the dirty water. I enjoyed baseball as much in the '60's as I do now. I'm not saying to get rid of baseball, just the cheating.
George
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Pirate1974
So now Barry Bonds may sit out the whole season, or maybe just half of it, because of his knee surgery. How convenient. Anybody want to bet that we'll see a much smaller Bonds when he comes back, maybe something closer to the 185 pounds he weighed in Pittsburgh than the 235 that he is now? Of course, knowing Barry, this might all be b.s. and he'll be in the Giants lineup on opening day. If only the evil media will stop trying to destroy him.
-->
Personally, I think the main reason that players shouldn't use steroids is that THEY'RE AGAINST THE RULES! It gives some players an unfair advantage. I know that's naive of me to think that way, but if baseball had a real testing policy they could probably cut steroid use way down. I don't believe they'll ever do away with them permanently anymore than they can get rid of pitchers doctoring baseballs.
I'm not really much of a baseball fan and the only time I really pay attention to it is during the playoffs and the World Series. Should I care if Jose Canseco went from a basically easygoing guy to one who likes to beat up women and little guys in bars, possibly a symptom of "roid rage?" Should I care if Gary Sheffield damages his liver? Should I care if Jason Giambi's hair falls out? Should I care if Barry Bonds' testicles shrivel up? Probably not.
You can't go back and take away any records or add any asterisks to them, but baseball can make a real effort to try to keep steroids out of the game. Of course the real power in baseball, the Players Association, will never let that happen.
Personally I think the International Olympic Committee should take the medals away from all those Russian and East German "female" swimmers and runners from the 70s and 80s. They were juiced up with so much testosterone that they had to shave their faces every day and they had voices like Barry White.
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simonzelotes
...Can't get enough of your love,baby....
I read that story,and I'm hypothesizing a few things,myself...Like maybe Barry's conscience is getting to him...He's in a no-win situation,now...If he breaks the career homerun record,he'll get booed,knowing within himself he cheated to do it...Plus if he keeps playing,he'll increase his chances of getting caught using steroids and removing all doubt....Or,as Pirate suggests,he quits using them,goes back to being a 185 pound 41-year-old and can't hit the ball out of the park with the same frequency and doesn't reach the record...
Maybe he can live with beating McGwire's record....a fellow 'roid's user....But Aaron's?....A guy who dealt with more racism than Bonds will ever imagine,a hero who did it cleanly...
This may be the most diplomatic way for Bonds to gracefully bow out of this mess..Take time off to heal an injury,even the whole year...By the following year you're a year older and decide to hang 'em up for good,and the public understands...The hr record doesn't get broken,so he stops getting hounded about using steroids,past and current..He won't have to worry about perjuring himself...And he'll be able to look Hank Aaron and every Yankee fan in the eye...
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Tom Strange
George said:
I don't think it will either... and that's not what I was getting at... I don't know what the solution is or will be, but I'd go for more stringent testing and education with the youth and amateurs...ANY positive tests and you're out. Period. The Pros can afford to beat the tests, the amateurs can't. That's part of my point I think... education and testing, lots more of it, on the youth and amateur levels...
and FEAR... put the fear that they'll never be able to compete in their sport again in them... at least until they're pro... I'm no expert, not hardly, but it would be a better than we have now... people looking the other way... and there should be some repurcussions for the coaches who turn a blind eye...
for the sake of winning
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