The Indians have had hitting all year...highest scroing team in the majors. But the improvement in their pitching is big. Getting Wickman back hasnt hurt, but several starters and relievers have shown fine individual improvement. Plus, the team has learned how to win most of the close ones.
Yea, I was pleasantly surprised...but that is partly because those White Sox are having their problems...they may not be playing well, but the injury bug doesn't help.
Simon: Maxville was a shortstop and Shannon was originally a right fielder, but when Ken Boyer retired after the '66 season Roger Maris came and played right field while Shannon was moved to 3rd base.
Now that you mention it, the Cubs must've had a good team in the late 60s early 70s: Banks at 1st, Beckert and Kessinger and Ron Santo to fill out the infield, Billy Williams and Jim Hickman in the OF. Fergie Jenkins is the only starter I can remember. Pirates must've had a good bullpen.
I remember the '65 series (Twins/Dodgers) how the Twins were the consumate offensive team with Killebrew, Allison, Oliva, etc. and the Dodgers were the pitching team with Koufax, Drysdale, Perranoski, etc. One stat used to illustrate this was that Twins leadoff hitter SS Zoilo Versailes had 77 RBI for the season while the team leader for the Dodgers OF Ron Fairly only had 70. Dodgers won game 7 2-0 in Minnesota with Koufax pitching. Guess it comes down to one game at a time. Cards bullpen this year is good plus their starting 5 pitchers collectively have only missed one start all year. That's gotta help.
You know,Johniam,you gotta remember,LaRussa and pitching coach Dave Duncan are the best in the business at managing a pitching staff...If memory serves,they were together in Oakland in the late 80's/early 90's,when Bob Welch won 27 games,Dave Stewert won over 20...Oakland went the entire year with only five or six different starters...Coincidence?...I know nobody can control injuries totally,but I think it's more than just good luck that the Card's staff has remained intact...
Did I see my name mentioned? oops. Well, anyway, ever since I made note of those Cleveland Indians, they have gone into a nosedive. Of course, they are still ahead of the White Sox.
It's alive!....Yeah,Lifted,just like the old Sports Illustrated Curse....Put a surprise team or player on the cover,and right after that their season goes down the toilet...Geez,what happened?...One week they're tied w/ the Twinkies,the next week they're seven games out...
"...ever since I made note of those Cleveland Indians, they have gone into a nosedive."
Ok, Lifty, no more making note of them, 'k? I was wondering what sent 'em to hell in a handbasket.
I miss our young, excited players of the mid-90s, anyway, so I don't go to games or watch them on TV as much as I did back then. Even though they always broke my heart in the end, they seemed so enthusiastic that it was fun anyway.
Then all of them left. Even Jim Thome, the loveable goober from Chicago with the pulled-up socks. His exit really surprised me. It's business, I guess, but I don't like them moving all around just when you think you've gotten to know 'em. God bless Omar. At least he stuck with us.
By the way, did we win last night? When I flipped past the game, they had a pretty good lead--too often a sure sign of impending defeat for the Tribe. I was afraid to watch.
Do I sound cynical? Well, I've been a fan off and on since I watched them on a black & white TV in the 50s with my grandpa. "Next year" is our motto around here. (And let's don't even talk about football.)
Being an Indians fan is sorta like being in an abusive marriage. You make excuses, you forgive, you love anyway. How loooooooooooooong will this go on? :D-->
Yeah,Linda,...Cubs,Indians,Bosox,...they could even drive a nun to drink...I remember a few years ago,I was watching Seattle jump out to like an 11-0 lead against the Tribe on ESPN...Indians started chipping away at the lead...Then our little "Xman" buddy called me 'cuz he was at the game,left early,and when he heard on the radio the Tribe was making a comeback tried to get back in the stadium,but couldn't...I think it ended up where the Indians overcame the biggest deficit in AL history to win a ball game...
I'm glad that Thome is at least playing for an old NL team....He wouldn't look right in some west coast uniform...
If I remember correctly Thome batted 8th on the '95 team. Of course, that team had Albert Belle, Matt Williams, and Manny Ramirez (all very serious sluggers) on it. Their team this year has a lot of young players on it doesn't it? Give 'em time.
The Indians playing the Los Angeles Angels at Wrigley field in L.A. in 1961.
Mudcat Grant posing for me on camera day in Washington.
The Indians hitting four straight homers, causing the exploding scoreboard operator to run out of fireworks.
The presidential opener in Washington in 1966 with the Indians in town. The Presdent didnt make it that day; HHH was there.
The 1966 pennant race
The Indians beating the Senators after trailing with two out in the top of the ninth, when the next Tribe batter struck out but reached irst when the catcher lost the ball.
Doc Edwards...who now manages our minor league team here.
Growing up in MI as a Tiger fan, my mom took me to 1 game per year. In 1966 we saw a July double header against the Indians. In the second game the Indians won 13-2. Seven home runs by the Indians (Colivito - 2, Leon Wagner - 2, Chuck Hinton, Max Alvis, and Buddy Booker - 1 each). I can't remember who pitched for the Tigers. I remember that Baltimore won the AL pennant and the World series that year. I remember that 4 Tigers started the all star game: Freehan at catcher, McLain pitched, retired all 9 he faced, Mc Aulliffe was the SS and Kaline in RF. Kaline might have injured himself and missed the game, but he was named to start.
Max Alvis was a great 3rd baseman. If it weren't for Brooks Robinson he probably would have been in several all star games. Does anybody know if he's still alive and if he's still in baseball?
Max Alvis-thats a blast from the past-I did a quick search and couldn't find much except career stats and that he was born in 1938--I would assume he is still alive--I do remember once owning his 1966 Topps card---
I remember those Tiger teams of the 60's -Jim Northrup (who always seemed to lead the league in grand slams) Norm Cash, Don Wert, Mickey Lolich, Dick Mcauliffe (with one of the strangest stances I have ever seen)--I saw Willie Horton hit one of the longest homeruns ever at Fenway Park into a driving rain in 67, and in 68 saw McLain win his 27th against Lonborg, a four hitter. To this day I have never seen a fastball that exploded like McLains did that year.
In fact I saw the Tigers-Red Sox last night with good seats behind 3B. The '04 Tigers are far less memorable than the 60's Tigers.
Gotta get off the Indians for a bit and back to umpiring. The late Ron Luciano once described Alvin Dark as his favorite manager. Seems once Luciano called out one of Dark's players on a close play at second base, and the player burst into a heated argument. Out came Dark at running speed, and Luciano braced for a new confrontation. Instead, Dark yelled at his player, "I don't know what you're arguing about because you looked out from where I was, so get back to the dugout."
Luciano mentioned other players who never argued, including Rod Carew and Richie Allen.
Umpire heaven would be where no one ever argued a call.
By the way, that bit about Dark was an answer to an interview question on who was his favorite manager. When asked next who his least favorite manager was, Luciano brought his well known feud with Earl Weaver to new heights.
I LOVE Ron Luciano's books. Saw him ump a game in 1978. He was the 1st base ump and when he'd call them out at 1st he's shoot them. Yeah, Weaver was advanced class material all right.
Well then you must know what Luciano mentioned about one thing he really respected Weaver for...and it wasnt his manner on the field. It was that Weaver would never allow his pitchers to throw at a batter.
I love Luciano's books too, more so as a certified umpire. He seemed like a real fun loving guy.
I remember working bless patrol late one night my first year in-residence...After three months of no tv,radio,newspapers,and doing scripture retemories,teachings,and generally nothing but Bible,I'd about had,it and was seriously thinking of leaving...My BP partner was a 7th corpse guy named John S------...For whatever reason,one or the other of us threw out the name of some obscure baseball player from the 60's,which the other acknowledged,and it set us off on three hours of swapping baseball stories,quizes,favorite players and general baseball trivia...By the time our shift was over,I thought that the world was an ok place to live in again... Every time John and I passed one another after that,we would throw out the names of the most obscure players we could think of at eachother to see if we could stump the other....
Anywho,many of the players you guys mentioned ring a bell...Tigers....Don Demeter,Jake Wood,Ike and Gates Brown...Julio Javier on the Cardinals...I can't remember if Camillo Pascual started out 8-0,for the Twins or the Indians one year...Umpires...Al Vargo,Ed Barlick,Augie Donatelli...I also remember a third baseman named Joe Foy who either played for the Bosox or the Indians...But I can't for the life of me recall ever hearing the name Max Alvis...How did that name slip by me?
quote: Don Demeter,Jake Wood,Ike and Gates Brown...Julio Javier on the Cardinals...I can't remember if Camillo Pascual started out 8-0,for the Twins or the Indians one year...Umpires...Al Vargo,Ed Barlick,Augie Donatelli...I also remember a third baseman named Joe Foy who either played for the Bosox or the Indians...But I can't for the life of me recall ever hearing the name Max Alvis...How did that name slip by me?
Maybe Max was in one of those notorious brain cells that we all spent time killing along the way. I distinctly remember the card I had of him in the old Indians uniform with no sleeves--I dont ever remember seeing him play though.
You bring up some good names --Don Demeter came to the Red Sox in 66 for Earl Wilson, wore number 4 and played centerfield until he was replaced with Reggie Smith possibly the best outfield arm I have ever seen. Don disappeared from my view after that.
Gates Brown had a few great years as a pinchitter and was the first and only player I ever saw smoke on the field.
Julian Javier broke up Jim Lonborg's perfect game in game 2 of the 67 series with two outs in the eighth a double to left.
I actually used Joe Foy's stance for awhile because he cocked his bat so distinctively but my favorite story about him was when he got hit by a pitch in NY (I think in 68). He was taken to the hospital for XRays and the ambulance got in an accident on the way. He was ok from the pitch but broke his arm in the accident and was out for quite awhile. Joe passed a few years ago which seemed way too young to me.
Last night Manny Ramirez passed the giant lumbering Frank Howard on the alltime homerun list, which reminded me of the highest popup I have ever witnessed, hit by Frank in the late 60's for the Senators that could have easily brought rain. But also reminds me thatmost of the Senators of that era must have been living in my brain cells that have gone elsewhere, since I can remember almost none of them, although one of them was Camillo Pascual.
So Simon you are not alone with the forgetfulness piece (try a high school reunion sometime).
But in better news the Red Sox have cut the Yankees lead from 10 1/2 games to 3 1/2 in two weeks. My Sox are hot facing the most important games of the year, September has arrived, and Steinbrenner mustve blown a gasket after losing 22-0 last night to the Indians
Baseball life here is good.
Game 7 is tentatively scheduled for Halloween night
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Lifted Up
Manager of the year...Eric Wedge?
The Indians have had hitting all year...highest scroing team in the majors. But the improvement in their pitching is big. Getting Wickman back hasnt hurt, but several starters and relievers have shown fine individual improvement. Plus, the team has learned how to win most of the close ones.
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simonzelotes
He's done a great job,too....I was shocked when the Indians passed the Chisox....
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Lifted Up
Yea, I was pleasantly surprised...but that is partly because those White Sox are having their problems...they may not be playing well, but the injury bug doesn't help.
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johniam
Simon: Maxville was a shortstop and Shannon was originally a right fielder, but when Ken Boyer retired after the '66 season Roger Maris came and played right field while Shannon was moved to 3rd base.
Now that you mention it, the Cubs must've had a good team in the late 60s early 70s: Banks at 1st, Beckert and Kessinger and Ron Santo to fill out the infield, Billy Williams and Jim Hickman in the OF. Fergie Jenkins is the only starter I can remember. Pirates must've had a good bullpen.
I remember the '65 series (Twins/Dodgers) how the Twins were the consumate offensive team with Killebrew, Allison, Oliva, etc. and the Dodgers were the pitching team with Koufax, Drysdale, Perranoski, etc. One stat used to illustrate this was that Twins leadoff hitter SS Zoilo Versailes had 77 RBI for the season while the team leader for the Dodgers OF Ron Fairly only had 70. Dodgers won game 7 2-0 in Minnesota with Koufax pitching. Guess it comes down to one game at a time. Cards bullpen this year is good plus their starting 5 pitchers collectively have only missed one start all year. That's gotta help.
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simonzelotes
You know,Johniam,you gotta remember,LaRussa and pitching coach Dave Duncan are the best in the business at managing a pitching staff...If memory serves,they were together in Oakland in the late 80's/early 90's,when Bob Welch won 27 games,Dave Stewert won over 20...Oakland went the entire year with only five or six different starters...Coincidence?...I know nobody can control injuries totally,but I think it's more than just good luck that the Card's staff has remained intact...
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Lifted Up
Did I see my name mentioned? oops. Well, anyway, ever since I made note of those Cleveland Indians, they have gone into a nosedive. Of course, they are still ahead of the White Sox.
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simonzelotes
It's alive!....Yeah,Lifted,just like the old Sports Illustrated Curse....Put a surprise team or player on the cover,and right after that their season goes down the toilet...Geez,what happened?...One week they're tied w/ the Twinkies,the next week they're seven games out...
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Linda Z
"...ever since I made note of those Cleveland Indians, they have gone into a nosedive."
Ok, Lifty, no more making note of them, 'k? I was wondering what sent 'em to hell in a handbasket.
I miss our young, excited players of the mid-90s, anyway, so I don't go to games or watch them on TV as much as I did back then. Even though they always broke my heart in the end, they seemed so enthusiastic that it was fun anyway.
Then all of them left. Even Jim Thome, the loveable goober from Chicago with the pulled-up socks. His exit really surprised me. It's business, I guess, but I don't like them moving all around just when you think you've gotten to know 'em. God bless Omar. At least he stuck with us.
By the way, did we win last night? When I flipped past the game, they had a pretty good lead--too often a sure sign of impending defeat for the Tribe. I was afraid to watch.
Do I sound cynical? Well, I've been a fan off and on since I watched them on a black & white TV in the 50s with my grandpa. "Next year" is our motto around here. (And let's don't even talk about football.)
Being an Indians fan is sorta like being in an abusive marriage. You make excuses, you forgive, you love anyway. How loooooooooooooong will this go on?
:D-->
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simonzelotes
Yeah,Linda,...Cubs,Indians,Bosox,...they could even drive a nun to drink...I remember a few years ago,I was watching Seattle jump out to like an 11-0 lead against the Tribe on ESPN...Indians started chipping away at the lead...Then our little "Xman" buddy called me 'cuz he was at the game,left early,and when he heard on the radio the Tribe was making a comeback tried to get back in the stadium,but couldn't...I think it ended up where the Indians overcame the biggest deficit in AL history to win a ball game...
I'm glad that Thome is at least playing for an old NL team....He wouldn't look right in some west coast uniform...
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Linda Z
Let's be honest, simon. Thome would look best in a pair of overalls. But I loved him.
I never believed he'd leave us. *sniff*
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excathedra
are you talking about the team that used a squirrel to beat the bronx boys
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johniam
If I remember correctly Thome batted 8th on the '95 team. Of course, that team had Albert Belle, Matt Williams, and Manny Ramirez (all very serious sluggers) on it. Their team this year has a lot of young players on it doesn't it? Give 'em time.
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Lifted Up
From the old days, I remember...
Rocky Colavito hitting four homers in one game.
The 1959 pennant race
The Indians playing the Los Angeles Angels at Wrigley field in L.A. in 1961.
Mudcat Grant posing for me on camera day in Washington.
The Indians hitting four straight homers, causing the exploding scoreboard operator to run out of fireworks.
The presidential opener in Washington in 1966 with the Indians in town. The Presdent didnt make it that day; HHH was there.
The 1966 pennant race
The Indians beating the Senators after trailing with two out in the top of the ninth, when the next Tribe batter struck out but reached irst when the catcher lost the ball.
Doc Edwards...who now manages our minor league team here.
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Lifted Up
And yes, Ex, I think they may be finding a place for that squirrel on the roster.
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johniam
Growing up in MI as a Tiger fan, my mom took me to 1 game per year. In 1966 we saw a July double header against the Indians. In the second game the Indians won 13-2. Seven home runs by the Indians (Colivito - 2, Leon Wagner - 2, Chuck Hinton, Max Alvis, and Buddy Booker - 1 each). I can't remember who pitched for the Tigers. I remember that Baltimore won the AL pennant and the World series that year. I remember that 4 Tigers started the all star game: Freehan at catcher, McLain pitched, retired all 9 he faced, Mc Aulliffe was the SS and Kaline in RF. Kaline might have injured himself and missed the game, but he was named to start.
Max Alvis was a great 3rd baseman. If it weren't for Brooks Robinson he probably would have been in several all star games. Does anybody know if he's still alive and if he's still in baseball?
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mstar1
Max Alvis-thats a blast from the past-I did a quick search and couldn't find much except career stats and that he was born in 1938--I would assume he is still alive--I do remember once owning his 1966 Topps card---
I remember those Tiger teams of the 60's -Jim Northrup (who always seemed to lead the league in grand slams) Norm Cash, Don Wert, Mickey Lolich, Dick Mcauliffe (with one of the strangest stances I have ever seen)--I saw Willie Horton hit one of the longest homeruns ever at Fenway Park into a driving rain in 67, and in 68 saw McLain win his 27th against Lonborg, a four hitter. To this day I have never seen a fastball that exploded like McLains did that year.
In fact I saw the Tigers-Red Sox last night with good seats behind 3B. The '04 Tigers are far less memorable than the 60's Tigers.
The '04 Sox however are picking up steam...
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Lifted Up
Gotta get off the Indians for a bit and back to umpiring. The late Ron Luciano once described Alvin Dark as his favorite manager. Seems once Luciano called out one of Dark's players on a close play at second base, and the player burst into a heated argument. Out came Dark at running speed, and Luciano braced for a new confrontation. Instead, Dark yelled at his player, "I don't know what you're arguing about because you looked out from where I was, so get back to the dugout."
Luciano mentioned other players who never argued, including Rod Carew and Richie Allen.
Umpire heaven would be where no one ever argued a call.
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Lifted Up
By the way, that bit about Dark was an answer to an interview question on who was his favorite manager. When asked next who his least favorite manager was, Luciano brought his well known feud with Earl Weaver to new heights.
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johniam
I LOVE Ron Luciano's books. Saw him ump a game in 1978. He was the 1st base ump and when he'd call them out at 1st he's shoot them. Yeah, Weaver was advanced class material all right.
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Lifted Up
Well then you must know what Luciano mentioned about one thing he really respected Weaver for...and it wasnt his manner on the field. It was that Weaver would never allow his pitchers to throw at a batter.
I love Luciano's books too, more so as a certified umpire. He seemed like a real fun loving guy.
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simonzelotes
I remember working bless patrol late one night my first year in-residence...After three months of no tv,radio,newspapers,and doing scripture retemories,teachings,and generally nothing but Bible,I'd about had,it and was seriously thinking of leaving...My BP partner was a 7th corpse guy named John S------...For whatever reason,one or the other of us threw out the name of some obscure baseball player from the 60's,which the other acknowledged,and it set us off on three hours of swapping baseball stories,quizes,favorite players and general baseball trivia...By the time our shift was over,I thought that the world was an ok place to live in again... Every time John and I passed one another after that,we would throw out the names of the most obscure players we could think of at eachother to see if we could stump the other....
Anywho,many of the players you guys mentioned ring a bell...Tigers....Don Demeter,Jake Wood,Ike and Gates Brown...Julio Javier on the Cardinals...I can't remember if Camillo Pascual started out 8-0,for the Twins or the Indians one year...Umpires...Al Vargo,Ed Barlick,Augie Donatelli...I also remember a third baseman named Joe Foy who either played for the Bosox or the Indians...But I can't for the life of me recall ever hearing the name Max Alvis...How did that name slip by me?
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mstar1
Maybe Max was in one of those notorious brain cells that we all spent time killing along the way. I distinctly remember the card I had of him in the old Indians uniform with no sleeves--I dont ever remember seeing him play though.
You bring up some good names --Don Demeter came to the Red Sox in 66 for Earl Wilson, wore number 4 and played centerfield until he was replaced with Reggie Smith possibly the best outfield arm I have ever seen. Don disappeared from my view after that.
Gates Brown had a few great years as a pinchitter and was the first and only player I ever saw smoke on the field.
Julian Javier broke up Jim Lonborg's perfect game in game 2 of the 67 series with two outs in the eighth a double to left.
I actually used Joe Foy's stance for awhile because he cocked his bat so distinctively but my favorite story about him was when he got hit by a pitch in NY (I think in 68). He was taken to the hospital for XRays and the ambulance got in an accident on the way. He was ok from the pitch but broke his arm in the accident and was out for quite awhile. Joe passed a few years ago which seemed way too young to me.
Last night Manny Ramirez passed the giant lumbering Frank Howard on the alltime homerun list, which reminded me of the highest popup I have ever witnessed, hit by Frank in the late 60's for the Senators that could have easily brought rain. But also reminds me thatmost of the Senators of that era must have been living in my brain cells that have gone elsewhere, since I can remember almost none of them, although one of them was Camillo Pascual.
So Simon you are not alone with the forgetfulness piece (try a high school reunion sometime).
But in better news the Red Sox have cut the Yankees lead from 10 1/2 games to 3 1/2 in two weeks. My Sox are hot facing the most important games of the year, September has arrived, and Steinbrenner mustve blown a gasket after losing 22-0 last night to the Indians
Baseball life here is good.
Game 7 is tentatively scheduled for Halloween night
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def59
Earl Wilson was an awesome hitting pitcher. We in Michigan loved him when he played for the Tigers.
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oldiesman
August 31, 2004:
Cleveland 22, Yankees 0
Worst defeat for the Yanks in their history ...
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