Maris is a tough one-he played 12 years and had a lifetime .260 average, 275 HRs and 851 RBI, not remarkable numbers over the course of a career--BUT you are right in that he had the back to back MVP years and reached the unreachable number of 61.
?????? Dont know-----there is no doubt that he carried around a real banner of fame for his 1961 season, the same way that Bill Mazeroski did for his 1960 7th game HR. Mazeroski got voted in (imo) primarily for that one at bat--should Maris go in on the strength of one amazing year?
Thats a good question.....I spose it would be the right thing
for me I think it is unconscionable that Ron Santo who was in many ways the third baseman of his time, all the while battling diabetes isnt in.....Im hoping the veterans committee votes him in as well this year
If Maris won back to back mvp's, he had 2 amazing years.
The comparison with Mazerowski has merit, but I can't compare the two. Ask 100 people on the street about Maris and Mazerowski, and even today, the vast majority will know Roger Maris. It IS the Hall of FAME, and Maris earned his fame by deeds.
The .260 average, reminds me of the brilliant reporter who asked Maris during the home run chase if a .260 hitter 'deserved' to chase the Babe. No wonder his hair was falling out in clumps.
yeah... I'm with you guys (I think)... for me the player has to be "IT" for his position (or at the plate) for awhile... OR ... do something extraordinary (like break The Babe's HR record)...
(I don't know about Santo... too many cubbies spoils the hall!!!)
And then there's the dilemma of the future... when guys that have had screamingly hot careers keep playing until they're chased out by no longer being able to play at the major league level... Like Glavine, Maddux, even the Big Unit.
Koufax and Carlton knew what they were doing... and they're not the only ones. How long will Maddux hold on... 'till no one can remember his string of Cy Youngs? Maybe Maddux's star shined bright enough that it will be easier to remember, but Glavine and Smoltz have definitely waned for multiple seasons since their peak years.
Of course, some of them want to hit the magical 300 win mark. But the Mad Dog has already made that one. Glavine and Johnson are hoping to last long enough to get there, but I dunno...
Of course, some of them want to hit the magical 300 win mark
Interesting point.
when we were talking about Blyleven a few days ago, I looked him up and he had 287 wins-right in the same ballpark as Tommy John and Jim Kaat, none of who are in the Hall.
Some of these guys may look at 300 as their ticket to immortality--of course with what they pay these days I may want to hang on as long as I could hold a baseball
Yeah,the Hall can be quite a controversial topic...My initial feeling about Blyleven was that he shouldn't be in...He was a little better than a nediocre pitcher that played a long time...Koufax was a mediocre pitcher until he had those four consecutive seasons as the most dominant pitcher in baseball,if not baseball history....Maris should be in....Even if only based on that one season('61)... In our lifetime,Maris' chase on the Babe's hr record was the most famous,if not the most intriguing season anybody ever had...I don't know if they have a special section in the hall for one-time events,like Bobby Thompson's homer,or Don Larsen's perfect game,but even on the basis of that one season alone,if we're talking about the 'Hall of Fame' and not the 'Hall of Lifetime Achievements',not too many players were more famous than Maris because of what he acclompished that one season...Hell,I'd even give special consideration to Mark "the Bird" Fydrich ...
My haunting indecision about the 'steroids era' players is that I don't know if we'll ever be fully informed as to how much it trickled down to every player....I never liked the "well,everybody else is doing it" excuse,but if they(steroids) were in fact not illegal,and everybody from all the superstars to the hanging-on-by-their-toenails journeyman relievers were using them just to stay competitive,then maybe the entire era is to be condemned,and not just a few individual players...Of course,you kinda wish somebody would have come clean before the sacred records of Maris,Aaron and Ruth were challenged...
I think that may have to astericked somewhere in our minds---but it is so close that it has yet to play itself out---it will be interesting how it is handled by the writers and the hall when the time comes....
maybe instead of the bronze plaques that are at the hall they should make the roids boys out of some fake composite material---fake records gets a fake plaques.
It is a shame that the great power records toppled and will remain in question......
so since we are on controversial aspects of the HOF
That's good,mstar...Maybe Barry Bonds' plaque could have some mysterious cream spread all over it.too...
I have to agree with you about the steroids era playing itself out...We can have the asterisk in our minds,and until all the full stories come out,as if they ever will,there still is that innocent until proven guilty thing....
We say often here that baseball emulates life...That is why I am all for the Hall in presenting those famous players that contributed to,and made baseball what it is,warts and all...I don't know much about the basic credos for acceptance in the HOF,other than it is the highest honor a ballplayer/manager/announcer/owner/batboy can achieve...There's plenty of awards and recognitions for baseball participants who are great humanitarians and so forth...But those whose acclomplishments on the field,in the dugout and behind the front desk excelled well above their peers,should be recognized and honored for their baseball deeds and what they brought to the game of baseball...warts and all...I don't particularly care for a Hall that is akin to those Military Press Releases that Rocky sorta frowns on in the political threads ...
It's been said,..even here as a matter of fact,that baseball is the perfect religion....That doesn't mean I expect any kind of holiness or piety from it's players...Heck,Ty Cobb was a devilishly mean sumbitch...He reportedly went into the stands during one game and beat up a crippled heckler...
Being banned from ever participating in a Major League Baseball game in any way,shape or form should NOT include eligibility into the Hall Of Fame...IMO,it's as simple as that...Maybe if we dig deep enough we could find enough dirt or improprieties among current inductees to have them kicked out of the HOF....Does that make sense?....Especially when trying to apply today's social and 'good character' standards to the eras in which some of the inductees played...How many oldtimers were blatant out-and-out racists?....Cap Anson comes to mind...He refused to let his team take the field against a team of Negro ballplayers...In fact,were it not for Anson and others like him,Jackie Robinson wouldn't have needed to be the one to break baseball's color barrier in the first place...And,yes Cap anson is in the Hall...
So....................................................yes,......Shoeless Joe and Charlie Hustle should be in the Hall of Fame...While both of those guys violated a sacred baseball code and perhaps rightly so,were banned for life,their baseball accomplishments were in no wise related to their sins...I'd like to see them in the Hall,warts and all....
Y'know I went to the Hall this past spring, it had been awhile since I was there and i was "blessed" to see Shoeless Joe's Shirt, Glove and Bat in a display case. ( I dont recall if there was anything there of Rose's or not..). So although (I guess) officially banned from having his name and likeness on a bronze plaque, the HOF does seem to at least fairly reflect and recognize history warts and all---That was good news for me to see that at least.
They have amazing archives and libraries there, that I would love to dig into--so in a manner of speaking they do keep all the warts (which is a good thing) just not out as front as the enshrinees
Maris's bat, photos of Don Larsens perfect game--and other nonHall players with very memorable events were there..
damn thinking about it makes me want to go again......
I'm pretty much starting to think along the "let 'em all in" lines... unfortunately, I think we'll look back on these last 10 or 15 years and they'll be relatively tame compared to whatwill be going on then...
AS DUSTIN HOFFMAN WOULD SAY IN RAINMAN: "THIS IS BAD, VERY BAD"
Newberg is reporting that BOTH SOX are actively pursuing Michael Young.
I'll do it... but only for TWO of the top 4 in their rotations... and they wouldn't do that... (and no broken down old timers either, I don't care how tough they are)
it looks like the Bosox are opening up the vault for J D Drew.
I'm going to try to look at the bright side for Mstar, and acknowledge that JD does have a world of talent.It could be that he will find himself in Fenway, and live up to expectations.
I won't rehash all I've said here. It's easy enough to look up. It's true that just about noone, fan or writer, shed any tears when JD filed. It's also true that I hardly knew he existed after attending over 25 games, and following the rest closely. It came as a shock when I saw he had 100 rbi's.
Dodger Stadium is starving for someone who can drive in 100 rbi's. That he did and left without anyone caring says alot.
Yeah... I saw that... what was it? 5 for $70m? I thought that was a bit much as well... you hardly ever hear of Drew in the outside world... I didn't even know he had been around long enough to go free yet... time flies...
I see where Maddux is going to sign for one year with SD for $10m with a player option year... heck, why won't Hicks give him $12m for a year with no state tax!
With all this money being tossed about so "freely" it makes one wonder what tickets are going to cost in the near future... and whether the "small market" teams will have a snowball's chance in Phoenix in July...
Besides their usual insanity... they've got a new TV contract kicking in and the 'ceiling' for the luxury tax to kick in is going to be higher... of course next year there will be a big rollback as all of the owners cry about how they "had to" pay these salaries... yeah, like the players held a gun to their heads...
When are they gonna realize that if they don't offer the crazy money it won't get paid?
None of those guys is going to sit out and not be paid...
For me, the sight of Pettite on the mound, staring through his glove , in a playoff game, is worth more than the Big Unit, Mussina, and name your hot shot free agent, combined.
Well, let's see... we signed Lofton and Gagne... Mulder is in today for a visit... Zito's still unsigned... seems like a lot of 'treading water' kind of moves... I understand (I guess) bringing Lofton in for a year. He's still viable and it leaves us open to bring in Hunter or Wells or (Andruw) Jones next year when the CF derby starts. BUT at least one of those guys better be a stRanger next year.
We're (still) being patient, but the general feeling around here is that we still need to ink another quality pitcher this year. Entertaining signing Mulder for the future (like StL did with Carpenter) is a risk, but could turn out good dividends...
And Mstar... rumors are still circulating down here about Manny... also, what's up with Boras and "D-Mat"??? He's expecting the BoSox to pony up the money without even a physical? If he goes back to Japan they may bury him... but who knows with "the Baseball Anti-Christ" (Boras) involved...?
yeah... those BoSox and Mets are now 1b and 1c with the Yankees as far as payroll goes aren't they?
It looks like Toronto is trying to tie up Wells for a few years... I don't know how he can turn down that kind of money... so my dream of him playing for his hometown team looks kind of bleak barring a trade... well, there's still T Hunter out there and while he didn't grow up here, he does live here...
I just rolled in, Ive been on the road down south for a few weeks --doin my thang, (everyione wants all their new church windows before christmas)-so Ive been working my tail off-- travelin, drivin-stoppin, installin then rolling on to the next place-doin what I do other than on the baseball front--Its been good-but Ive been severely disengaged-away from internet newspapers and TV for a few weeks ----- I did catch some news the other day in Atlanta that Matsuzaka signed--but havent processed it yet as Ive been in another zone...
Other than that Im woefully behind on all the other things happening--
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I missed the LLWS. The boy had baseball practice 4-7. Playing in a USSSA tournament this coming weekend. The new season has just started. Can ya'll believe we are in September of the ML baseball s
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mstar1
Maris is a tough one-he played 12 years and had a lifetime .260 average, 275 HRs and 851 RBI, not remarkable numbers over the course of a career--BUT you are right in that he had the back to back MVP years and reached the unreachable number of 61.
?????? Dont know-----there is no doubt that he carried around a real banner of fame for his 1961 season, the same way that Bill Mazeroski did for his 1960 7th game HR. Mazeroski got voted in (imo) primarily for that one at bat--should Maris go in on the strength of one amazing year?
Thats a good question.....I spose it would be the right thing
for me I think it is unconscionable that Ron Santo who was in many ways the third baseman of his time, all the while battling diabetes isnt in.....Im hoping the veterans committee votes him in as well this year
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hiway29
If Maris won back to back mvp's, he had 2 amazing years.
The comparison with Mazerowski has merit, but I can't compare the two. Ask 100 people on the street about Maris and Mazerowski, and even today, the vast majority will know Roger Maris. It IS the Hall of FAME, and Maris earned his fame by deeds.
The .260 average, reminds me of the brilliant reporter who asked Maris during the home run chase if a .260 hitter 'deserved' to chase the Babe. No wonder his hair was falling out in clumps.
I agree that Ron Santo should be in.
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Tom Strange
yeah... I'm with you guys (I think)... for me the player has to be "IT" for his position (or at the plate) for awhile... OR ... do something extraordinary (like break The Babe's HR record)...
(I don't know about Santo... too many cubbies spoils the hall!!!)
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Rocky
And then there's the dilemma of the future... when guys that have had screamingly hot careers keep playing until they're chased out by no longer being able to play at the major league level... Like Glavine, Maddux, even the Big Unit.
Koufax and Carlton knew what they were doing... and they're not the only ones. How long will Maddux hold on... 'till no one can remember his string of Cy Youngs? Maybe Maddux's star shined bright enough that it will be easier to remember, but Glavine and Smoltz have definitely waned for multiple seasons since their peak years.
Of course, some of them want to hit the magical 300 win mark. But the Mad Dog has already made that one. Glavine and Johnson are hoping to last long enough to get there, but I dunno...
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Tom Strange
I don't know why anyone with multiple Cy Young's or MVPs, etc isn't in the hall...
...unless I'm mistaken... Maddux has merely "fallen off" to the level of "good pitcher" now... (by today's standards)...
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mstar1
Interesting point.
when we were talking about Blyleven a few days ago, I looked him up and he had 287 wins-right in the same ballpark as Tommy John and Jim Kaat, none of who are in the Hall.
Some of these guys may look at 300 as their ticket to immortality--of course with what they pay these days I may want to hang on as long as I could hold a baseball
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simonzelotes
Yeah,the Hall can be quite a controversial topic...My initial feeling about Blyleven was that he shouldn't be in...He was a little better than a nediocre pitcher that played a long time...Koufax was a mediocre pitcher until he had those four consecutive seasons as the most dominant pitcher in baseball,if not baseball history....Maris should be in....Even if only based on that one season('61)... In our lifetime,Maris' chase on the Babe's hr record was the most famous,if not the most intriguing season anybody ever had...I don't know if they have a special section in the hall for one-time events,like Bobby Thompson's homer,or Don Larsen's perfect game,but even on the basis of that one season alone,if we're talking about the 'Hall of Fame' and not the 'Hall of Lifetime Achievements',not too many players were more famous than Maris because of what he acclompished that one season...Hell,I'd even give special consideration to Mark "the Bird" Fydrich
...
My haunting indecision about the 'steroids era' players is that I don't know if we'll ever be fully informed as to how much it trickled down to every player....I never liked the "well,everybody else is doing it" excuse,but if they(steroids) were in fact not illegal,and everybody from all the superstars to the hanging-on-by-their-toenails journeyman relievers were using them just to stay competitive,then maybe the entire era is to be condemned,and not just a few individual players...Of course,you kinda wish somebody would have come clean before the sacred records of Maris,Aaron and Ruth were challenged...
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Rocky
I can say 'AMEN' to that brother Simon!
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mstar1
well said Simon....
I think that may have to astericked somewhere in our minds---but it is so close that it has yet to play itself out---it will be interesting how it is handled by the writers and the hall when the time comes....
maybe instead of the bronze plaques that are at the hall they should make the roids boys out of some fake composite material---fake records gets a fake plaques.
It is a shame that the great power records toppled and will remain in question......
so since we are on controversial aspects of the HOF
Pete Rose
Yea or Nay?
or for that matter
Shoeless Joe Jackson
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simonzelotes
That's good,mstar...Maybe Barry Bonds' plaque could have some mysterious cream spread all over it.too...
I have to agree with you about the steroids era playing itself out...We can have the asterisk in our minds,and until all the full stories come out,as if they ever will,there still is that innocent until proven guilty thing....
We say often here that baseball emulates life...That is why I am all for the Hall in presenting those famous players that contributed to,and made baseball what it is,warts and all...I don't know much about the basic credos for acceptance in the HOF,other than it is the highest honor a ballplayer/manager/announcer/owner/batboy can achieve...There's plenty of awards and recognitions for baseball participants who are great humanitarians and so forth...But those whose acclomplishments on the field,in the dugout and behind the front desk excelled well above their peers,should be recognized and honored for their baseball deeds and what they brought to the game of baseball...warts and all...I don't particularly care for a Hall that is akin to those Military Press Releases that Rocky sorta frowns on in the political threads
...
It's been said,..even here as a matter of fact,that baseball is the perfect religion....That doesn't mean I expect any kind of holiness or piety from it's players...Heck,Ty Cobb was a devilishly mean sumbitch...He reportedly went into the stands during one game and beat up a crippled heckler...
Being banned from ever participating in a Major League Baseball game in any way,shape or form should NOT include eligibility into the Hall Of Fame...IMO,it's as simple as that...Maybe if we dig deep enough we could find enough dirt or improprieties among current inductees to have them kicked out of the HOF....Does that make sense?....Especially when trying to apply today's social and 'good character' standards to the eras in which some of the inductees played...How many oldtimers were blatant out-and-out racists?....Cap Anson comes to mind...He refused to let his team take the field against a team of Negro ballplayers...In fact,were it not for Anson and others like him,Jackie Robinson wouldn't have needed to be the one to break baseball's color barrier in the first place...And,yes Cap anson is in the Hall...
So....................................................yes,......Shoeless Joe and Charlie Hustle should be in the Hall of Fame...While both of those guys violated a sacred baseball code and perhaps rightly so,were banned for life,their baseball accomplishments were in no wise related to their sins...I'd like to see them in the Hall,warts and all....
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mstar1
Y'know I went to the Hall this past spring, it had been awhile since I was there and i was "blessed" to see Shoeless Joe's Shirt, Glove and Bat in a display case. ( I dont recall if there was anything there of Rose's or not..). So although (I guess) officially banned from having his name and likeness on a bronze plaque, the HOF does seem to at least fairly reflect and recognize history warts and all---That was good news for me to see that at least.
They have amazing archives and libraries there, that I would love to dig into--so in a manner of speaking they do keep all the warts (which is a good thing) just not out as front as the enshrinees
Maris's bat, photos of Don Larsens perfect game--and other nonHall players with very memorable events were there..
damn thinking about it makes me want to go again......
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Tom Strange
I'm pretty much starting to think along the "let 'em all in" lines... unfortunately, I think we'll look back on these last 10 or 15 years and they'll be relatively tame compared to whatwill be going on then...
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Tom Strange
AS DUSTIN HOFFMAN WOULD SAY IN RAINMAN: "THIS IS BAD, VERY BAD"
Newberg is reporting that BOTH SOX are actively pursuing Michael Young.
I'll do it... but only for TWO of the top 4 in their rotations... and they wouldn't do that... (and no broken down old timers either, I don't care how tough they are)
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hiway29
it looks like the Bosox are opening up the vault for J D Drew.
I'm going to try to look at the bright side for Mstar, and acknowledge that JD does have a world of talent.It could be that he will find himself in Fenway, and live up to expectations.
I won't rehash all I've said here. It's easy enough to look up. It's true that just about noone, fan or writer, shed any tears when JD filed. It's also true that I hardly knew he existed after attending over 25 games, and following the rest closely. It came as a shock when I saw he had 100 rbi's.
Dodger Stadium is starving for someone who can drive in 100 rbi's. That he did and left without anyone caring says alot.
But-MAYBE it will be different in Boston.
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Tom Strange
Yeah... I saw that... what was it? 5 for $70m? I thought that was a bit much as well... you hardly ever hear of Drew in the outside world... I didn't even know he had been around long enough to go free yet... time flies...
I see where Maddux is going to sign for one year with SD for $10m with a player option year... heck, why won't Hicks give him $12m for a year with no state tax!
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Rocky
With all this money being tossed about so "freely" it makes one wonder what tickets are going to cost in the near future... and whether the "small market" teams will have a snowball's chance in Phoenix in July...
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Tom Strange
Besides their usual insanity... they've got a new TV contract kicking in and the 'ceiling' for the luxury tax to kick in is going to be higher... of course next year there will be a big rollback as all of the owners cry about how they "had to" pay these salaries... yeah, like the players held a gun to their heads...
When are they gonna realize that if they don't offer the crazy money it won't get paid?
None of those guys is going to sit out and not be paid...
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hiway29
Andy Pettite going back to the Bronx !
For me, the sight of Pettite on the mound, staring through his glove , in a playoff game, is worth more than the Big Unit, Mussina, and name your hot shot free agent, combined.
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Tom Strange
he did seem to be "clutch" when wearing the home pinstripes in October...
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Tom Strange
Well, let's see... we signed Lofton and Gagne... Mulder is in today for a visit... Zito's still unsigned... seems like a lot of 'treading water' kind of moves... I understand (I guess) bringing Lofton in for a year. He's still viable and it leaves us open to bring in Hunter or Wells or (Andruw) Jones next year when the CF derby starts. BUT at least one of those guys better be a stRanger next year.
We're (still) being patient, but the general feeling around here is that we still need to ink another quality pitcher this year. Entertaining signing Mulder for the future (like StL did with Carpenter) is a risk, but could turn out good dividends...
And Mstar... rumors are still circulating down here about Manny... also, what's up with Boras and "D-Mat"??? He's expecting the BoSox to pony up the money without even a physical? If he goes back to Japan they may bury him... but who knows with "the Baseball Anti-Christ" (Boras) involved...?
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hiway29
I've been curious as to Mstar's thoughts on the hot stove season-especially concerning JD Drew, but he seems to have gone fishing, or missing.
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Tom Strange
yeah... those BoSox and Mets are now 1b and 1c with the Yankees as far as payroll goes aren't they?
It looks like Toronto is trying to tie up Wells for a few years... I don't know how he can turn down that kind of money... so my dream of him playing for his hometown team looks kind of bleak barring a trade... well, there's still T Hunter out there and while he didn't grow up here, he does live here...
Mstar... where are you???
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mstar1
I just rolled in, Ive been on the road down south for a few weeks --doin my thang, (everyione wants all their new church windows before christmas)-so Ive been working my tail off-- travelin, drivin-stoppin, installin then rolling on to the next place-doin what I do other than on the baseball front--Its been good-but Ive been severely disengaged-away from internet newspapers and TV for a few weeks ----- I did catch some news the other day in Atlanta that Matsuzaka signed--but havent processed it yet as Ive been in another zone...
Other than that Im woefully behind on all the other things happening--
Gimme a few weeks==its my busy season....
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Tom Strange
...a few weeks??? dude! it's the hot time of the hot stove league!
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