we're all giddy here... we're not used to being able to be interested in the standings after the first three weeks of the season... and here we are... almost to the break!!!
Hey don't forget the Dodgers this year. They been out front for most of the season and I think they got a good shot at winning the pennant this year. If they do go to the world series who do you think will go from the AL I'd like to see the Dodgers and Yankees (my second best team) or the Angels also one of my favorite teams.
BTW what is the st in front of the rangers mean? and also what ist this new tech system thingy, isn't it something to do with the umpires? making em honest or sumpin?
stRangers win in 18! Sweep Seattle! (I know, that's not such a big deal this year, but whenever Seattle showed a little crack, the boys took advantage of it)...
anyone know how ARod is hitting with runners in scoring position? when it counts? ...he had an abysmal record of that when down here...
Hills... here's where we've been 'talking baseball'... unless of course you want your very own Yankee thread... feel free to post your Yankee propaganda here...!
Any thoughts on interleague games?...Looks like they're here to stay...It's fun seeing some of these AL pitchers bat for the first time all year...It's also good for NL clubs with a deep bench to have a DH...
I've heard some argue that they're unfair because the teams you're playing against in the other league could be a lot stronger than the teams you're playing against in your league... but I don't know... they're still professional baseball players right?
I just wish they'd do away with the DH... and everyone could play an equal number of games against everyone else... both leagues!
But Tom, what about the division rivalries? If every team played every other team the same number of games, then you'd get 2 three game series' with each team. Cards and Cubs have already played each other 14 times this year (7-7). This rivalry is mild compared to Giants/Dodgers or Yankees/Red Sox. Lot of times Cardinal fans and Cub fans sit right next to each other, but it's still an exciting time when the two teams play.
All right, who's talkin'? Called seven games in a tournament over the weekend, including the championship game. Aside from forgetting to keep my hand out of the way on a pitch the catcher missed totally, it went well.
A couple of rules points that came up, which not everyone seemed to know; how about you?
Runners on first and third, two out, and the catcher missed a third strike. Is the batter automatically out? (Note, these are big kids, and we play regular baseball rules except for some substitution and pitching changes).
Runner on first steals second on a foul tip, which is held by the catcher. Is the runner entitled to second, or must he return?
With two outs,the batter is never automatically out,even if bases are loaded,although if bases are loaded,catcher merely has to step on the plate to force the runner on third..I believe the only time the batter is automatically out on a dropped third strike is when there are less than two out and first base is occupied...Runners on second and third only,batter is safe if he can beat the throw to first and runners MAY stay put...
I believe the runner is entitled to second on a foul tip caught by the catcher...
What sucks about these interleague rivalries,Johnuar,is the Cardinals just pasted the hapless Royals three straight while the Cubs had to play the Chisox,whose bats are about up there with the Yankees'...
quote:With two outs,the batter is never automatically out,even if bases are loaded,although if bases are loaded,catcher merely has to step on the plate to force the runner on third..I believe the only time the batter is automatically out on a dropped third strike is when there are less than two out and first base is occupied...Runners on second and third only,batter is safe if he can beat the throw to first and runners MAY stay put...
why am i reminded of the old abbott and costello routine when you guys talk ?
Because baseball play possibilities are so numerous, and the rules complicated enough, that when we attempt to discuss even a sample of the possibilities, it can sound confusing to the unstudies ear. A & C knew this and turned it into their classic routine by subsituting their interesting "names" for players.
Because the play possibilities are so numerous, the rules have to be extensive to cover, as well as can be done, so that the umpire does not have to "guess" in rules situations. obviously there are a lot of judgement calls (ball or strike, safe or out, etc). But within that framework, we like to have something concrete to guide our decisions, so we can have some pretense of authority.
If this is too boring for you, bear with me; you would never guess what I am thinking now in line with this.
If a runner slides into home plate and the catcher puts the tag on him, I have to judge whether or not he did tag him, and if he did before or after the runner reached the plate. But before I make an out call, I must see concrete evidence that the catcher (or whatever fielder is involved) is still holding the ball in that glove. A lot of times in a plate collision, I have to search that out. The rules say he has to hold that ball. So I may not make my call for a few seconds.
Determining what happended in real life can be like that for me. That is why I am so big on testimony. And for testimony to carry the weight of seeing that baseball in the catcher's mitt, I must know that it is reliable...the person doing the testifying must be more than an anonymous someone to me, and definitely more than someone else referring to an anonymous someone's words.
In order not to tie up this thread on the wonderful subject of baseball, further explanations of my thinking, if desired (which may be unlikely) may be obtained by using the PT route or by e-mailing me at smile092850@hotmail.com .
Now, for a personal tidbit...
I have seen major league baseball games live at the following places...
The Coliseum in Los Angeles
Wrigley Field in Los Angeles (yes, there was one)
Municipal Stadium in Cleveland
DC/RFK Stadium in Washington
Memorial Stadium in Baltimore
Metropolitan Stadium in Bloomington, MN
Atlanta/Fulton Co. Stadium in Atlanta
The big A at Anaheim (before it was closed in)
Fenway Park in Boston
Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia
As you may corretcly guess, by the fact that many of the above either dont exist anymore or are not big league ballparks anymore, it has been quite many years since I have seen a big league game live. But, now the taste of being in real action (as an umpire) seems to be better.
You are right of course, Simon. Next one...and I am not thinking these up; this one came up just last night. Batter swings and tops one right in front of the plate...often called a "swinging bunt". As he starts down the line for first, he drops the bat in front of the plate. The ball rolls back and hits the bat (in fair territory). Is the batter out at that point, or is he still alive in his attempt to reach first base?
Good list LU! Have you/Do you attend any games at "live" pro ballparks? My list is:
Fenway, Astrodome, St Petersburg, Camden Yards, Atlanta Fulton County, Atlanta Ted, Metrodome, KC, Ballpark in Arlington, Arlington Stadium, The BoB, Kingdome, Candlestick, PacBell, Chavez Ravine, Big A, Veterans Stadium, SD County (or whatever the old cookie cutter one was called), Oakland Alemeda...
...but I did get to go to the greatest college basketball ever played (was it in 92?)... East Regional Final, triple OT, Duke and Kentucky...
Letsee....Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field....Oh,you want others?...The old Tiger Stadium,the Old Comiskey Park,Bank One Ballpark,the old County stadium in Milwaukee and where the Iowa Oaks played in Des Moines...I've also been to most of the spring training sites in Arizona...
Stranger,that was Jack Murphy stadium in San Diego...
Lifted,I'll hazard a guess...If I had to make up the ruling as I went,I would say that since home plate is in fair territory and the batter is supposed to drop the bat somewhere near home plate,he can't be responsible if it lands or rolls partially or wholly in fair territory Once the bat leaves his hands,in effect,it becomes part of the field,the same as if the ball careened off a beer cup in the outfield...Therefore the play should be live...If he was still in contact with the bat then I think he would be out...
Simon, I'll give you a passing grade on that one. The only exception to your description would be if, in the umpire's judgement, the batter dropped the bat with intent to interfere with the ball. But I'll bet you would figure that one correctly if you saw it. So where do you umpire?
Speaking of umpire's judgement, at one time it was in the rules that if, in the umpire's judgement, the batter didn't try hard enough to get out of the way of a pitched ball then he couldn't take his base even if the ball hit him. But the last time I remember that happening was in 1971 during the NLCS (SF/Pitt). Giants 3rd baseman Dick Deitz was the batter.
Is that even still in the rules? Fernando Vina was not even subtle in his leaning into pitched balls when he played for the Cardinals. Any of you guys remember an umpire ruling that way recently?
It's still there. Most umpires are pretty lenient to the batter on that one though. The idea being that with some of the smoke big and even minor league pitchers throw, the batter doesnt have much time to get out of the way. Even with the teens and kids I have only called it a couple times in fifteen years, that is, not let the batter have first.
The most famous case that I remember is when Don Drysdale was going for the consecutive shutout innings record and was pitching against, I think, the Giants. With the bases loaded and three balls on the batter, Drysdale hit a batter with a pitch, but the umpire didn't let the batter have first. Drysdale went on to set a new record.
Oh, not only did the ump not allow the batter first, but he called the pitch a strike. If a pitch hits the batter in the strike zone it is just that, the batter doesnt go anywhere (except the dugout if it's strike three), and effort to get out of the way doesnt matter. The way some batters crowd the plate, I am surprised this hasnt happened more often.
I've umped some winter-ball games,but I'm not a certified ump...But I love the game,and since my son was in club ball the last three years,I've had plenty of time to sit and chat with other baseball people about the nuances of the game...I'm seriously considering getting into umping so's I can stay close to the game after my son finishes highschool...
I've seen highlights on ESPN where a batter swung at a pich that ended up hitting him,and it was called a strike...According to the umps in club-ball,at least around here,even the slightest movement,or attempt by the batter to get out of the way will grant the batter first base...Some hitters will simply twist at the hip on an inside pitch and actually move into the path of the baseball,and all the umps I've seen rule in the batter's favor...
We had one interesting incident come up in a game last year,that our manager was going to file a protest on,but we ended up winning the game...Our catcher had aggressively tagged out a couple of the opposing players,knocking them down....The other team started complaining to the home plate ump...Then there was a close play at the plate on a base hit,and the catcher tagged the runner out hard,knocking him down...The ump immediately called 'out',then stood in front of the catcher and started warning him about his aggressive play....Except he didn't call time and the runner who got the base hit took another base...If that extra base had affected the outcome of the game,and we lost,would our protest have held up?
Looks like the Ump didnt handle it right, but dunno about the protest. My take from your description is that the ump should have waited until the play was complete, call time, then give his warning.
If there is good reason to believe that the batter would have made it to second anyway, the protest is dead. If the catcher was still holding the ball when the ump gave his warning, distracting the catcher from making a play, and if the runner was holding up before noticing the distraction, then the protest seems legit. But then, it would have depended on the interpretation of the people in your league who handle protests...and how much of a pain in the *** they felt it would be to drag everyone out at another time to replay the game from that point.
Putting the reigns on aggressive play, especially runners running into fielders trying to make a tag, is a big thing with the kids, even the big ones. Such plays that would be called "giving your all" in pro ball are not tolerated in many leagues (including ours), and for good reason.
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Tom Strange
How about those stRangers! ...only a couple of weeks or so left till the all star break and they're tied for first! ...it's a miracle I tell ya!
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simonzelotes
I think Uncle Buck is doing a fine job there...
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Tom Strange
I have to agree with you mybrotherSimon!
we're all giddy here... we're not used to being able to be interested in the standings after the first three weeks of the season... and here we are... almost to the break!!!
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wyteduv58
Hey don't forget the Dodgers this year. They been out front for most of the season and I think they got a good shot at winning the pennant this year. If they do go to the world series who do you think will go from the AL I'd like to see the Dodgers and Yankees (my second best team) or the Angels also one of my favorite teams.
BTW what is the st in front of the rangers mean? and also what ist this new tech system thingy, isn't it something to do with the umpires? making em honest or sumpin?
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Tom Strange
duvvie... "BTW what is the st in front of the rangers mean?"
Hint: ...what is my last name?
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Tom Strange
stRangers win in 18! Sweep Seattle! (I know, that's not such a big deal this year, but whenever Seattle showed a little crack, the boys took advantage of it)...
anyone know how ARod is hitting with runners in scoring position? when it counts? ...he had an abysmal record of that when down here...
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Tom Strange
Hills... here's where we've been 'talking baseball'... unless of course you want your very own Yankee thread... feel free to post your Yankee propaganda here...!
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simonzelotes
Any thoughts on interleague games?...Looks like they're here to stay...It's fun seeing some of these AL pitchers bat for the first time all year...It's also good for NL clubs with a deep bench to have a DH...
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Tom Strange
I've heard some argue that they're unfair because the teams you're playing against in the other league could be a lot stronger than the teams you're playing against in your league... but I don't know... they're still professional baseball players right?
I just wish they'd do away with the DH... and everyone could play an equal number of games against everyone else... both leagues!
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johniam
But Tom, what about the division rivalries? If every team played every other team the same number of games, then you'd get 2 three game series' with each team. Cards and Cubs have already played each other 14 times this year (7-7). This rivalry is mild compared to Giants/Dodgers or Yankees/Red Sox. Lot of times Cardinal fans and Cub fans sit right next to each other, but it's still an exciting time when the two teams play.
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Lifted Up
All right, who's talkin'? Called seven games in a tournament over the weekend, including the championship game. Aside from forgetting to keep my hand out of the way on a pitch the catcher missed totally, it went well.
A couple of rules points that came up, which not everyone seemed to know; how about you?
Runners on first and third, two out, and the catcher missed a third strike. Is the batter automatically out? (Note, these are big kids, and we play regular baseball rules except for some substitution and pitching changes).
Runner on first steals second on a foul tip, which is held by the catcher. Is the runner entitled to second, or must he return?
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simonzelotes
Aaaah,lifted,another good baseball guy...
With two outs,the batter is never automatically out,even if bases are loaded,although if bases are loaded,catcher merely has to step on the plate to force the runner on third..I believe the only time the batter is automatically out on a dropped third strike is when there are less than two out and first base is occupied...Runners on second and third only,batter is safe if he can beat the throw to first and runners MAY stay put...
I believe the runner is entitled to second on a foul tip caught by the catcher...
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simonzelotes
What sucks about these interleague rivalries,Johnuar,is the Cardinals just pasted the hapless Royals three straight while the Cubs had to play the Chisox,whose bats are about up there with the Yankees'...
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excathedra
carry on
(it is fascinating)
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Lifted Up
Because baseball play possibilities are so numerous, and the rules complicated enough, that when we attempt to discuss even a sample of the possibilities, it can sound confusing to the unstudies ear. A & C knew this and turned it into their classic routine by subsituting their interesting "names" for players.
Because the play possibilities are so numerous, the rules have to be extensive to cover, as well as can be done, so that the umpire does not have to "guess" in rules situations. obviously there are a lot of judgement calls (ball or strike, safe or out, etc). But within that framework, we like to have something concrete to guide our decisions, so we can have some pretense of authority.
If this is too boring for you, bear with me; you would never guess what I am thinking now in line with this.
If a runner slides into home plate and the catcher puts the tag on him, I have to judge whether or not he did tag him, and if he did before or after the runner reached the plate. But before I make an out call, I must see concrete evidence that the catcher (or whatever fielder is involved) is still holding the ball in that glove. A lot of times in a plate collision, I have to search that out. The rules say he has to hold that ball. So I may not make my call for a few seconds.
Determining what happended in real life can be like that for me. That is why I am so big on testimony. And for testimony to carry the weight of seeing that baseball in the catcher's mitt, I must know that it is reliable...the person doing the testifying must be more than an anonymous someone to me, and definitely more than someone else referring to an anonymous someone's words.
In order not to tie up this thread on the wonderful subject of baseball, further explanations of my thinking, if desired (which may be unlikely) may be obtained by using the PT route or by e-mailing me at smile092850@hotmail.com .
Now, for a personal tidbit...
I have seen major league baseball games live at the following places...
The Coliseum in Los Angeles
Wrigley Field in Los Angeles (yes, there was one)
Municipal Stadium in Cleveland
DC/RFK Stadium in Washington
Memorial Stadium in Baltimore
Metropolitan Stadium in Bloomington, MN
Atlanta/Fulton Co. Stadium in Atlanta
The big A at Anaheim (before it was closed in)
Fenway Park in Boston
Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia
As you may corretcly guess, by the fact that many of the above either dont exist anymore or are not big league ballparks anymore, it has been quite many years since I have seen a big league game live. But, now the taste of being in real action (as an umpire) seems to be better.
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wyteduv58
tom strange? hee hee I was thinking it meant saint rangers lol, but I like strange rangers too.
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Lifted Up
You are right of course, Simon. Next one...and I am not thinking these up; this one came up just last night. Batter swings and tops one right in front of the plate...often called a "swinging bunt". As he starts down the line for first, he drops the bat in front of the plate. The ball rolls back and hits the bat (in fair territory). Is the batter out at that point, or is he still alive in his attempt to reach first base?
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Tom Strange
Good list LU! Have you/Do you attend any games at "live" pro ballparks? My list is:
Fenway, Astrodome, St Petersburg, Camden Yards, Atlanta Fulton County, Atlanta Ted, Metrodome, KC, Ballpark in Arlington, Arlington Stadium, The BoB, Kingdome, Candlestick, PacBell, Chavez Ravine, Big A, Veterans Stadium, SD County (or whatever the old cookie cutter one was called), Oakland Alemeda...
...but I did get to go to the greatest college basketball ever played (was it in 92?)... East Regional Final, triple OT, Duke and Kentucky...
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simonzelotes
Letsee....Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field,Wrigley Field....Oh,you want others?...The old Tiger Stadium,the Old Comiskey Park,Bank One Ballpark,the old County stadium in Milwaukee and where the Iowa Oaks played in Des Moines...I've also been to most of the spring training sites in Arizona...
Stranger,that was Jack Murphy stadium in San Diego...
Lifted,I'll hazard a guess...If I had to make up the ruling as I went,I would say that since home plate is in fair territory and the batter is supposed to drop the bat somewhere near home plate,he can't be responsible if it lands or rolls partially or wholly in fair territory Once the bat leaves his hands,in effect,it becomes part of the field,the same as if the ball careened off a beer cup in the outfield...Therefore the play should be live...If he was still in contact with the bat then I think he would be out...
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Lifted Up
Simon, I'll give you a passing grade on that one. The only exception to your description would be if, in the umpire's judgement, the batter dropped the bat with intent to interfere with the ball. But I'll bet you would figure that one correctly if you saw it. So where do you umpire?
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johniam
Speaking of umpire's judgement, at one time it was in the rules that if, in the umpire's judgement, the batter didn't try hard enough to get out of the way of a pitched ball then he couldn't take his base even if the ball hit him. But the last time I remember that happening was in 1971 during the NLCS (SF/Pitt). Giants 3rd baseman Dick Deitz was the batter.
Is that even still in the rules? Fernando Vina was not even subtle in his leaning into pitched balls when he played for the Cardinals. Any of you guys remember an umpire ruling that way recently?
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Lifted Up
It's still there. Most umpires are pretty lenient to the batter on that one though. The idea being that with some of the smoke big and even minor league pitchers throw, the batter doesnt have much time to get out of the way. Even with the teens and kids I have only called it a couple times in fifteen years, that is, not let the batter have first.
The most famous case that I remember is when Don Drysdale was going for the consecutive shutout innings record and was pitching against, I think, the Giants. With the bases loaded and three balls on the batter, Drysdale hit a batter with a pitch, but the umpire didn't let the batter have first. Drysdale went on to set a new record.
Oh, not only did the ump not allow the batter first, but he called the pitch a strike. If a pitch hits the batter in the strike zone it is just that, the batter doesnt go anywhere (except the dugout if it's strike three), and effort to get out of the way doesnt matter. The way some batters crowd the plate, I am surprised this hasnt happened more often.
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simonzelotes
Lifted,
I've umped some winter-ball games,but I'm not a certified ump...But I love the game,and since my son was in club ball the last three years,I've had plenty of time to sit and chat with other baseball people about the nuances of the game...I'm seriously considering getting into umping so's I can stay close to the game after my son finishes highschool...
I've seen highlights on ESPN where a batter swung at a pich that ended up hitting him,and it was called a strike...According to the umps in club-ball,at least around here,even the slightest movement,or attempt by the batter to get out of the way will grant the batter first base...Some hitters will simply twist at the hip on an inside pitch and actually move into the path of the baseball,and all the umps I've seen rule in the batter's favor...
We had one interesting incident come up in a game last year,that our manager was going to file a protest on,but we ended up winning the game...Our catcher had aggressively tagged out a couple of the opposing players,knocking them down....The other team started complaining to the home plate ump...Then there was a close play at the plate on a base hit,and the catcher tagged the runner out hard,knocking him down...The ump immediately called 'out',then stood in front of the catcher and started warning him about his aggressive play....Except he didn't call time and the runner who got the base hit took another base...If that extra base had affected the outcome of the game,and we lost,would our protest have held up?
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Lifted Up
Looks like the Ump didnt handle it right, but dunno about the protest. My take from your description is that the ump should have waited until the play was complete, call time, then give his warning.
If there is good reason to believe that the batter would have made it to second anyway, the protest is dead. If the catcher was still holding the ball when the ump gave his warning, distracting the catcher from making a play, and if the runner was holding up before noticing the distraction, then the protest seems legit. But then, it would have depended on the interpretation of the people in your league who handle protests...and how much of a pain in the *** they felt it would be to drag everyone out at another time to replay the game from that point.
Putting the reigns on aggressive play, especially runners running into fielders trying to make a tag, is a big thing with the kids, even the big ones. Such plays that would be called "giving your all" in pro ball are not tolerated in many leagues (including ours), and for good reason.
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