We used to go to Milwaukee county stadium every so often,...we actually lived closer to there than Wrigley,but being nursed in baseball by the Cubs,....it's hard to forsake your baseball mother...Tho,I was a die-hard Packer fan...
Interestingly,it would take us about 40 minutes to get within a couple of miles of County Stadium,and then another 45 minutes to an hour to get to the parking lot from there...When we went to see the Cubs play the Brewers there last summer,it was the same thing at the new Miller Park,which was in the same general location as County Stadium...That is why,I think,"tailgaiting" became such a ritual and so famous in Milwaukee,...borne out of necessity....Rather then head to the ballpark after supper,and deal with the long delays outside the stadium,it was more convenient to head to the park after work and bring your supper with you,which usually ended up being beer and brats,and just cook out in the parking lot...
I saw the Chisox play the Brewers there in the '70's,when Wilbur Wood,overworked knuckleballer extraordinaire,was 13-3 in like mid May,well on his way,it seemed to a thirty or forty win season(he was starting every three days and even won both ends of a doubleheader)...Wood lost that game,and his season nosedived after that(damn Brewers)...He ended up being 24-17 that year...I always liked him and Phil Neikro,the last two guys to win 20 and lose 20 in the same season...
Holy Sh!t 13-3 in May? I remember Wilbur, but that part I didn't, Wilbur I think if my memory isnt failing me was from a few towns away(Belmont Mass), so alot of the High School kids were experimenting with knucklers. Me as a sometime catcher was taking the floater off the shoulders, toes , knees and forehead as often as I caught it -those knucklers are tough to predict...If I pitched one it usually ended up far far over a fence somewhere...I went back to the fastball and multiple variations of a curve...I'm still ready to be called up if they need a 49 yo reliever who hasn't thrown more than a few innings in a few decades... i'm well rested and my pitchcount for the last 30 years is extremely low....
13-3 in May -- must've been long before the days of pitchcounts, thats gotta be a single month record. I saw McLain the year he won 31, win his 27th against Lonborg with stuff that exploded as it reached the plate. Later Denny exploded. The last I saw of him he weighed about 400lbs and was doing time....but for one year he had the some of the best stuff I have ever seen...
Mstar,just to clarify,...Wood's record wasn't 13-3 for the month of May,it was 13-3 by the time mid-May rolled around,after the Sox had only played something like 45 total games starting in early April....He won his 12th and 13th games by pitching the completion of a previous suspended game that was tied after six innings,and won,and then started and won the regularly scheduled game,to give him two wins for the day...I saw a photo of Wilbur a few years ago,where he was running some fish house in New England,carrying a tray of some kind of seafood and a 100mm cigarette hanging out of his mouth....
Where are you finding these goofy stories?...Winter time is a good time to read up on meaningless baseball stats,etc. ...I've always been interested in pitching,'tho I couldn't throw a breaking ball to save my life...1980 seems to be the last year of the 4-man rotation,300 inning pitcher...Billy Martin's Oakland A's threw 91 complete games that year!...For over 20 years Brian Kingman was the last guy to lose 20 games in a season until Mike Maroth of Detroit did it two years ago...Kingman wore that distinction like a crown....his only claim to fame,I guess...
I've always admired the rubber-armed workhorses of the 60's and 70's....I remember watching Juan Marichal and Fergie Jenkins lock horns in an 11 inning 9-7 game that the Giants won,and both of them pitched complete games....Sometimes I think pitchers today are a little too coddled....80-90 pitches and they're out of there....But all teams do it so you have to keep up,I guess....
Ok I actually read the post and see what you mean, I think I vaguely remember that day that Wood won two, although its drifting in the sands of time in my memory at the moment...
My curve wasn't all that good, but I was young and strong and wild once so I probably kept most young batters scared enough to be able to sneak it in there from time to time. The last inning I remember pitching I walked 3 , and struck out 3. My main problem was consistently hitting the plate..but contact was rare..It was the fear in the heart and life of that batter that I inadvertently knocked down ( afew times) that let me sneak that curve over the outside corner I guess...
91 complete games?? ay carumba --those days are gone. I (vaguely again) remember a game when I was really young maybe Marichal vs Spahn that went about 15 shutout innings each until eventually it was won in the 16th. I doubt anyone will ever see another game like that one again
I think that pitchers are too coddled too but if someones making millions a year I spose you have to protect your investment. Its a different game now unfortunately. With people like Bill James around there are new stats and new theories for everything,and things slowly change... I wouldve like to have seen those guys like Cy Young who pitched near everyday and won 35-40 games a year.
I was reading a boxscore from 1975 yesterday at retrosheet( do I need to get a life??) where Luis Tiant threw 185 pitches. They'll give you all the meaningless statistics you could ever want having among other things every box score since 1901. I fill up the winter with about 10 sites like that and this year a bunch of books and DVDs on th past season. Steven Kings book is going good so far..
It just flashed across my screen that the Johnson deal is 98% done according to Gammons -but it wouldn't be the first time he jumped the gun...
...damn will this season hurry up and start already......
I remember having Luis' card when I was about six years old...I thought his last name rhymed with 'Giant',and was rather harshly reproved by an older friend for pronouncing it as such...
Speculation in the Az. Republic is that the D-backs will get Javier Vasquez in the Johnson deal....
I tell my son that every once in a while he needs to let one 'slip' and knock a batter on his fanny to get him to step in the bucket a little bit....He's got very good control for a 15 year old,but he let's the batter control the inside half of the plate a little too much....
Luis had the greatest windup, you never knew quite what direction he was going to release the ball from, I can still see him rotating his entire body 180degrees from the plate to the point where he was facing dead center field, hesitating for what seemed like an eternity then whirling and firing in. The nights Luis pitched were like a circus, he was agreat showman, and aside from the fact he was a great pitcher was a lovable guy with great quotes after every game in his broken English and always smoking a footlong cuban cigar. Luis was one of the good guys.
There is a move now to try get him in the Hall on the vets thing, he has almost the same career numbers as Catfish Hunter, who is in, so I dont see why not. whatever happens he will always be a new England legend....
When I was 15 I was just plain wild which looking back worked to my advantage, and in those days of Drysdale, Gibson etc it was just part of the game to come inside and maybe plunk one or two a game. I think pitchers give up way too much these days and thats one reason the averages and homeruns have skyrocketed. The great ones like Clemens and Martinez aren't afraid to learn from their predecessors and come inside no matter how unPC it is. Too often its a lost part of the game, which is just as real and as important as a well executed relay or hit and run....sometimes mre so....
Fine...Steinmoneybags wants to get Johnson, that makes for about $100Million just on the pitching staff, I hope one day all of this implodes on them (as it soon might since they are now stuck with so many big and somewhat useless contracts)and there can be a return to some sort of equality among more teams. It would be good for the game and good for the fans. I have a gut feeling thats whats in the works behind the scenes ( I have no reason to think it--just do..) but it will take a few years to pull it off...
....and I dont care if he has the best stuff in the world, tell your son his runs will go down if he keeps 'em a tad nervous, and not leaning out over the plate...I'll stamp my personal guarantee on it...on second thought I'm sure Dad has already tried to explain that
I remember that wind up....Luis coined the word 'boolcheet',or something like that....
I think part of the problem in the majors is the umps don't let them settle their scores enough out on the field...First inside pitch and they're issuing a warning...Or else the pitchers make it so blatantly obvious,you gotta throw him out...The Cubs pitched Barry Bonds better than any body else I had seen...Hit him three times in a series with breaking balls right on his goddamn feet-the only place his Darth Vader body armor couldn't protect him when he crouches over the plate like he does...Plus,it doesn't look so obvious...If they hit the bastard more often instead of wasting four pitches walking him,they might have kept him in the park a little more often...
I vote that Tiant and Ron Santo get into the Hall....
Its hard to believe that Ron Santo isn't already in, he was the third baseman of his generation, --well except for Brooks (who brought new light)--Its BOOLCHEET he's not in already.
I found this:
quote: FAN SUPPORT: Fans wishing to voice their opinion in support of their favorite candidates may do so in two ways: by sending a single letter to:
Hall of Fame Veterans Committee
Post Office Box 590
Cooperstown, NY 13326
Or by logging on to baseballhalloffame.org and sending an e-mail. The Hall of Fame does not forward petitions to the voting members, but makes all correspondence known to any interested voting members, as well as to the Screening Committee members and Historical Overview Committee members.
Im gonna dig up some stats and send them a letter on behalf of Tiant, Santo , Jim Rice and maybe Ryne Sandburg and Bert Blyleven
Boggs looks like the only lock this year. Its hard to believe guys who started their careers when I was an adult, have started, , had a great career, retired and been inducted in the hall of fame. They're already done-half the time I still feel like I'm looking for my lifes work...
Yea I agree with you the umpires are way too jumpy, I can understand controlling a game when people are 'settling scores' but to take away the inside of the plate artificially inflates the batting stats, and although in one sense it makes the game exciting with more hitting it takes away too many of the well played 1-0 and 2-1 games that you hardly ever see anymore...
Dont get me started on body armor, I dont want to see anyone seriously hurt, but bumps, bruises and minor injuries also are also parts of the game that you used to be able to factor in, and the self preservation thought in batters heads kept them at least somewhat aware and honest. It is sort of somewhere between amusement at the circus outfits ( good one on the Darth Vader image) and genuine annoyance when i see these guys like Bonds come up in their full body titanium suits. It just doesn'tlook like baseball. It gives yet another advantage to hitters.
I just cant see players from other eras-- Honus Wagner, or Joe Dimaggio, or Willie Mays( who spent half his life on his foot) ever even thinking like that--Mays was great and was knocked down 2-3 times agame, with no armor, and with the higher mound----I hope somewhere along the line, someone will adjust the records to the eras--and they take away all this goddamn football equipment...Its BOOLCHEET
--tell your son to pitch inside anyway--I'm gonna go write aletter to the vets committee
Edit:
Luis facing center field before he gets ready to uncork a pitch:
..and O yea--Happy New Year--I hate to see this one go-the Patriots won the SuperBowl, The Red Sox won the World Series and Boston Rob finished second on Survivor but like a true Bostonian married the million dollars ;-) --Its been a good year
Happy New year to you,also(Bullinger)....2004...a great year for Boston...
Yeah,there's a fine line in that 'brushback' pitching....Nobody wants to see another Ray Chapman beaning...On the other hand,that self-preservation thing can be quite a deterrant...
A couple of years ago,my kids's team really got pasted by one of the best teams in the league...Their # 3 hitter was also quite the showboat,as well as a good hitter....After the game,my kid's coach told him "when we play that team again,if you're pitching,I want you to hit that #3 hitter as hard as you could,and don't tell anybody I told you to,'cuz I'll deny it for the rest of my life"...Coach felt that that 13-year-old was disrespecting the game too much...As it turned out,we played that team again,on one of the Oakland A's spring training fields,a beautiful ballpark....Coach started another kid named Mark,a tall lanky kid,who was already shaving and had no idea where any of his pitches were going(Kinda like you)...Mark ended up hitting about 5 kids in that game including their #3 hitter in his first AB,we won handily,and that kid never hit the ball out of the infield and had a nice strawberry on his thigh as a reminder...
Obviously,on the major level,things won't be so overt,because hitters and pitchers are so much more fine-tuned,but you can't let a batter lock in like he's at the batting cage...Interestingly,one of the reasons I think hockey has gotten so much more violent in terms of cheap shots is because the players wear so much armor...Players get a false sense of protection,when they fight they're just beating eachother's helmets,and to really exact vengeance,they often resort to blind-side sucker punches...It seemed to be more of a 'gentleman's' game years ago,...even the fights were clean...
I still like seeing old footage of Norm Cash of the Tigers,standing at home plate without a batting helmet...
Yeah,Julio Franco is still playing...older than God,but not quite as old as me...That's boolcheet....
Incidentally,former umpire Ken Burkhart died yesterday at the age of 89....He was the home plate umpire in the '70 series between the Reds and Orioles,that made that infamous 'out' call on Bernie Carbo at home plate,when after being knocked over and with his back to the play,Elrod Hendrix clearly did not have the ball in his glove that he tagged Carbo 'out' with...O's won that game 4-3...
man you have a memory and ahalf, remembering what umpires umped which games, thats a feat way beyond me, I can remember the Oriole teams of those years and the Reds, and a few plays here and there (me jumping over the shortwall in right and back up to get a Boog Powell foul ball for one)In the AL those were some great Oriole teams---but umps in specific games? Hats off to you. I'm not worthy-you must have been brutal on retemories---
I remember a few guys batting without helmets, Cash always looked like a throwback- sort of what I pictured Babe Ruth may have looked like, sorta heavy and slow and the same sort of face that I saw in the old photos. He could hit the ball a mile too. Reggie Smith was the last guy I saw bat without a helmet and Mike Andrews was the first I saw to wear an earflap, it all changed when Tony Conigliaro got beaned and nearly killed, then it overnight became common practice and probably required to wear the flap. I of course have nothing against that,its good, its when these guys look like robotron coming up, with pads on there knees, legs, elbows, wrists, forearms and biceps that it gets a little much and takes away from the game. --good for those Cub pitchers for finding Bonds toe.
Mays didnt have a helmet for along time and he seemed to do OK, and that in the days when brushbacks were expected.
I don't know why the huge shift has occurred,but I don't like it.. some batters just expect to dig in and never be challenged and worse get bent out of shape if they do. ARod's the worst whining and bitching everytime a pitch is an inch inside-as if he is owed something, and shouldn't actually have to deal with it...to me its part of the game. It's part of he tools that make apitcher a real pitcher. If they are going to go overboard to protect hitters perhaps they should do something like raise the mound back up... or something...
well...Rest in Peace Mr Burkhart
and thank you and goodbye to 2004-it was a great ride, can we do it again next year?
And to further beat a dead horse,(isn't baseball great?)I'm not a fan of head-hunting,throwing at a guy's head....I remember when,I think it was Al Downing,hit Ron Santo in the cheek w/ a fastball...Downing even yelled "Lookout!" just before the pitch hit Santo...It just got away from him...Santo had to wear a cheek protector when he returned,about a month later...
One of the ugliest incidents I remember was when the Tigers played the A's in the 70 or '71 playoffs...Bert Campanaris was just destroying the Tigers on the bases,he had already had a bunch of steals in the series...Tigers pitcher threw a pitch right at Campy's feet(and I'll bet my last dollar on instructions from manager Billy Martin),and Campanaris reared back and threw his bat at the pitcher...Tigers pitcher ducked and the bat missed him....I think Campaneris was suspended for the remainder of the playoffs...
Speaking of beating a dead horse reminds me of The John Roseboro incident ( sorry that was an ugly leadin..boo me if you must), I think that was the ugliest I saw -when Juan Marichal clubbed Roseboro over the head with a bat, blood coming down the side of Roseboro's head..it was really really ugly....Yea I'm no fan of headhunting, so dont read me wrong. I saw Tony Conigliaro's career ended and there is nothing quite so sickening as that sound and then the deafening hush in a ballpark after a beaning-its spooky and scary. Even with all that I still think pitchers should take the inside of the plate --just stay away from the head. (is this horse officially dead yet??)
I liked watching Campaneris,inspite of that story about him and inspite of Charlie Finley's clown uniforms during those years. He was sort of like a mosquito always bugging you in a thousand ways, I think there should be a secondary hall, maybe a Hall of Renown or something for players who dont make the Hall of Fame but should still be remembered for one reason or another, for players like Campaneris,Wilbur Wood, Reggie Smith and some of the others we've mentioned. ...maybe they could even have flakes wing with Mark Fydrich, Bill Lee, Dock Ellis and other notables..like.Jimmy Piersall...I'd definitely go....
That knuckleballer I told you about a few posts ago that used to bounces his pitches off my facemask 30 years ago, just emailed me this as a New Years Card. I like it, but maybe you gotta be Red Sox guy...anyway....Happy New Year..
The Sounds Of Fenway
(to the tune of "My Favorite Things")
We give no trade clauses with free agent signing,
The World Series trophy is ours no more whining,
Bullpen with Foulke, no fear of late innings,
These are a few of my favorite things.
On base percentage to fill Bill James’ doodles,
we won’t have our hitters with bats like wet noodles
Four pitches per at bat no more first pitch swings
These are a few of my favorite things.
Damon with power and stolen base dashes,
Manny and Ortiz with their homerun smashes,
No more ‘1918’ heard in Florida springs,
These are a few of my favorite things.
When the Sox lose, when the scribe stings,
when I'm feeling sad,
I simply remember my favorite things,
and then I don't feel so bad.
Pitchers with cornrows and batters with whiskers,
Fenway Park ushers who now have to frisk us,
Admission price has become cheap for kings,
these are a few of my favorite things.
Even more seating and luxury boxes,
Signage and scoreboards and aisles filled with hawkers.
Good poem,the dead horse is beaten,I think we're on the same page on headhunting...I wish I could say the same for your politics :D-->...Merry New Year...
I think we are probably alot closer than you make me out to be, I just take a different route to things sometimes and it can get a bit (well more than a bit) taken the wrong way, and since I dont particularly relish the idea of writing incredibly long posts to explain all the details of why I view things the way I do only to have them ripped apart, I let alot of things that superficially may sound strange -just be-without a lot of explanation- I don't particularly like the 'headhunting' that goes on in there whether its my head or someone elses. I try to throw my pitch and stay out of that game but come to think of it I probably should throw inside a little more.. I'd probably stay in the game longer..
dam This horse just wont die--because baseball applies to everything.
Yeah,here I just kinda type by the spirit,not so concerned how it comes out...On the political,I have to check my posts line by line and word by word,because,after all,I wouldn't want to use an improper English word...And somebody will find something to pick apart....But at least the umps there let them settle their scores on the field....w/o too many warnings...
WB StrangeOne- I have a lot of laleo'ing in me on that subject but I'll leave it for Simon--
I will however post this from Luis Tiant that I found today:
quote: Pitching, once an art form and the dominant part of the game (see 1968 when four pitchers had earned run averages under 2.00 and the best batting average in the American League was .301), has become, says Tiant, a position for wimps.
Everywhere he looks, pitchers are pitching less and getting hurt more.
"But," says Tiant, pausing for a big puff of smoke. "I don't blame the pitchers. I blame the managers, the pitching coaches and the organizations. They are creating wimps. They are making pitchers weak-minded. Pitching is about guts, heart and smarts. If you are strong mentally, you can be strong physically, too."
Tiant says money has changed everything in baseball.
"Pitchers are rushed through the minor leagues," says Tiant. "I spent 5 1/2 years in the minor leagues. I was there that long because I didn't know how to pitch. I had a good arm, but I didn't know the important things."
Like?
"Pitching inside," says Tiant. "That drives me crazy, too. Pitchers today don't know how to pitch inside. It was my favorite thing to do. And I'm not talking about throwing at a guy's head. That's stupid. I mean near the chest."
Hey,stRanger's back...Now we have enough for manifestations....
Luis nailed it,and I coudn't have said it better even if I spoke broken English...Whatever happened to the Mike Marshall's,who appeared in 106 games as a reliever?...The Spahn's,The Jenkins',The Lolich's?...Guys who gave you 300 innings a year as if it were mandatory to collect a paycheck...He's right....Management is to blame for the wimpiness of the pitchers...What major league manager wants to wear the monkey on his back of overworking a $15,000,000 a year pitcher?....Get him out of there after 100 pitches so we protect our investment....Something about not finishing what you start,or cleaning up the mess you made,plays into a pitcher's psyche,I think....I mean,even if the guy's cruising along,pitching a three hit shutout,they yank him in the 7th or 8th because he's 'done his job'...What the hell is up with that?...All the teams do it,and I think it sucks....
Which is why,stRangeOne,I would still build a team (tho,I remember saying I don't like being a winter-time GM)around a good,solid-hitting and solid defensive line-up...A good management staff can get quite a bit of mileage out of so-so pitching,which to me,is a position on the team in which success lays more between the ears than any of the other eight positions....
quote: A good management staff can get quite a bit of mileage out of so-so pitching,which to me,is a position on the team in which success lays more between the ears than any of the other eight positions....
You may have noticed the Red Sox cut Pedro Martinez loose, for his salary they picked up 5 other pitchers. I wouldn't call them so-so but they certainly haven't got his name. I think that management made a very smart calculated risk..5 guys with relatively low financial risk and possible high return, at the very least they should be able to eat up alot of innings between them or at least more than Martinez would.
and no StrangeOne I dont really think it takes bucketloads of money (although it can help). The A's have been doing well for years with one of the smallest payrolls in the game. The Red Sox have to spend alot of money, since the Yankees are in the same division and the fanbase would skin them if they weren't close, but even though they spend alot-I can see that they are trying to bring it down and not continue to pay the overpriced guys. I think the trend will be to move back to fiscal sanity and play smarter and tighter not richer---
Hey,Mstar,...what do you think of Doug Mientkiewicz wanting to keep the ball that the Bosox recorded the last out in the World Series with?...CEO Larry Lucchiano thinks he should give it back to the Sox so they can have it in their archives...
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kimberly
I missed the LLWS. The boy had baseball practice 4-7. Playing in a USSSA tournament this coming weekend. The new season has just started. Can ya'll believe we are in September of the ML baseball s
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Dont scare me like that Bolsh--the way you posted I wasnt sure if it was a done deal--I had to go check....Im on the fence whether to go for Halliday or not---I'd love to have him but I'd hate to give
hiway29
I love those fan trades where players you don't care about, plus a 'prospect', are offered up for a major player. Yeah, the Jays will jump at that deal.
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simonzelotes
Happy Christmas eve...
We used to go to Milwaukee county stadium every so often,...we actually lived closer to there than Wrigley,but being nursed in baseball by the Cubs,....it's hard to forsake your baseball mother...Tho,I was a die-hard Packer fan...
Interestingly,it would take us about 40 minutes to get within a couple of miles of County Stadium,and then another 45 minutes to an hour to get to the parking lot from there...When we went to see the Cubs play the Brewers there last summer,it was the same thing at the new Miller Park,which was in the same general location as County Stadium...That is why,I think,"tailgaiting" became such a ritual and so famous in Milwaukee,...borne out of necessity....Rather then head to the ballpark after supper,and deal with the long delays outside the stadium,it was more convenient to head to the park after work and bring your supper with you,which usually ended up being beer and brats,and just cook out in the parking lot...
I saw the Chisox play the Brewers there in the '70's,when Wilbur Wood,overworked knuckleballer extraordinaire,was 13-3 in like mid May,well on his way,it seemed to a thirty or forty win season(he was starting every three days and even won both ends of a doubleheader)...Wood lost that game,and his season nosedived after that(damn Brewers)...He ended up being 24-17 that year...I always liked him and Phil Neikro,the last two guys to win 20 and lose 20 in the same season...
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mstar1
Holy Sh!t 13-3 in May? I remember Wilbur, but that part I didn't, Wilbur I think if my memory isnt failing me was from a few towns away(Belmont Mass), so alot of the High School kids were experimenting with knucklers. Me as a sometime catcher was taking the floater off the shoulders, toes , knees and forehead as often as I caught it -those knucklers are tough to predict...If I pitched one it usually ended up far far over a fence somewhere...I went back to the fastball and multiple variations of a curve...I'm still ready to be called up if they need a 49 yo reliever who hasn't thrown more than a few innings in a few decades... i'm well rested and my pitchcount for the last 30 years is extremely low....
13-3 in May -- must've been long before the days of pitchcounts, thats gotta be a single month record. I saw McLain the year he won 31, win his 27th against Lonborg with stuff that exploded as it reached the plate. Later Denny exploded. The last I saw of him he weighed about 400lbs and was doing time....but for one year he had the some of the best stuff I have ever seen...
I see Johnson is still whining to be traded to the Yankees ,
but the Yankees are asking the D'Backs if they can just borrow him once a week
Next year i swear, i have to move to Mexico, or the Caribbean or someplace that has baseball for the winter, these offseasons just last too long....
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simonzelotes
Mstar,just to clarify,...Wood's record wasn't 13-3 for the month of May,it was 13-3 by the time mid-May rolled around,after the Sox had only played something like 45 total games starting in early April....He won his 12th and 13th games by pitching the completion of a previous suspended game that was tied after six innings,and won,and then started and won the regularly scheduled game,to give him two wins for the day...I saw a photo of Wilbur a few years ago,where he was running some fish house in New England,carrying a tray of some kind of seafood and a 100mm cigarette hanging out of his mouth....
Where are you finding these goofy stories?...Winter time is a good time to read up on meaningless baseball stats,etc. ...I've always been interested in pitching,'tho I couldn't throw a breaking ball to save my life...1980 seems to be the last year of the 4-man rotation,300 inning pitcher...Billy Martin's Oakland A's threw 91 complete games that year!...For over 20 years Brian Kingman was the last guy to lose 20 games in a season until Mike Maroth of Detroit did it two years ago...Kingman wore that distinction like a crown....his only claim to fame,I guess...
I've always admired the rubber-armed workhorses of the 60's and 70's....I remember watching Juan Marichal and Fergie Jenkins lock horns in an 11 inning 9-7 game that the Giants won,and both of them pitched complete games....Sometimes I think pitchers today are a little too coddled....80-90 pitches and they're out of there....But all teams do it so you have to keep up,I guess....
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mstar1
Ok I actually read the post and see what you mean, I think I vaguely remember that day that Wood won two, although its drifting in the sands of time in my memory at the moment...
My curve wasn't all that good, but I was young and strong and wild once so I probably kept most young batters scared enough to be able to sneak it in there from time to time. The last inning I remember pitching I walked 3 , and struck out 3. My main problem was consistently hitting the plate..but contact was rare..It was the fear in the heart and life of that batter that I inadvertently knocked down ( afew times) that let me sneak that curve over the outside corner I guess...
91 complete games?? ay carumba --those days are gone. I (vaguely again) remember a game when I was really young maybe Marichal vs Spahn that went about 15 shutout innings each until eventually it was won in the 16th. I doubt anyone will ever see another game like that one again
I think that pitchers are too coddled too but if someones making millions a year I spose you have to protect your investment. Its a different game now unfortunately. With people like Bill James around there are new stats and new theories for everything,and things slowly change... I wouldve like to have seen those guys like Cy Young who pitched near everyday and won 35-40 games a year.
I was reading a boxscore from 1975 yesterday at retrosheet( do I need to get a life??) where Luis Tiant threw 185 pitches. They'll give you all the meaningless statistics you could ever want having among other things every box score since 1901. I fill up the winter with about 10 sites like that and this year a bunch of books and DVDs on th past season. Steven Kings book is going good so far..
It just flashed across my screen that the Johnson deal is 98% done according to Gammons -but it wouldn't be the first time he jumped the gun...
...damn will this season hurry up and start already......
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simonzelotes
I remember having Luis' card when I was about six years old...I thought his last name rhymed with 'Giant',and was rather harshly reproved by an older friend for pronouncing it as such...
Speculation in the Az. Republic is that the D-backs will get Javier Vasquez in the Johnson deal....
I tell my son that every once in a while he needs to let one 'slip' and knock a batter on his fanny to get him to step in the bucket a little bit....He's got very good control for a 15 year old,but he let's the batter control the inside half of the plate a little too much....
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mstar1
Luis had the greatest windup, you never knew quite what direction he was going to release the ball from, I can still see him rotating his entire body 180degrees from the plate to the point where he was facing dead center field, hesitating for what seemed like an eternity then whirling and firing in. The nights Luis pitched were like a circus, he was agreat showman, and aside from the fact he was a great pitcher was a lovable guy with great quotes after every game in his broken English and always smoking a footlong cuban cigar. Luis was one of the good guys.
There is a move now to try get him in the Hall on the vets thing, he has almost the same career numbers as Catfish Hunter, who is in, so I dont see why not. whatever happens he will always be a new England legend....
When I was 15 I was just plain wild which looking back worked to my advantage, and in those days of Drysdale, Gibson etc it was just part of the game to come inside and maybe plunk one or two a game. I think pitchers give up way too much these days and thats one reason the averages and homeruns have skyrocketed. The great ones like Clemens and Martinez aren't afraid to learn from their predecessors and come inside no matter how unPC it is. Too often its a lost part of the game, which is just as real and as important as a well executed relay or hit and run....sometimes mre so....
Fine...Steinmoneybags wants to get Johnson, that makes for about $100Million just on the pitching staff, I hope one day all of this implodes on them (as it soon might since they are now stuck with so many big and somewhat useless contracts)and there can be a return to some sort of equality among more teams. It would be good for the game and good for the fans. I have a gut feeling thats whats in the works behind the scenes ( I have no reason to think it--just do..) but it will take a few years to pull it off...
....and I dont care if he has the best stuff in the world, tell your son his runs will go down if he keeps 'em a tad nervous, and not leaning out over the plate...I'll stamp my personal guarantee on it...on second thought I'm sure Dad has already tried to explain that
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simonzelotes
I remember that wind up....Luis coined the word 'boolcheet',or something like that....
I think part of the problem in the majors is the umps don't let them settle their scores enough out on the field...First inside pitch and they're issuing a warning...Or else the pitchers make it so blatantly obvious,you gotta throw him out...The Cubs pitched Barry Bonds better than any body else I had seen...Hit him three times in a series with breaking balls right on his goddamn feet-the only place his Darth Vader body armor couldn't protect him when he crouches over the plate like he does...Plus,it doesn't look so obvious...If they hit the bastard more often instead of wasting four pitches walking him,they might have kept him in the park a little more often...
I vote that Tiant and Ron Santo get into the Hall....
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mstar1
Its hard to believe that Ron Santo isn't already in, he was the third baseman of his generation, --well except for Brooks (who brought new light)--Its BOOLCHEET he's not in already.
I found this:
Im gonna dig up some stats and send them a letter on behalf of Tiant, Santo , Jim Rice and maybe Ryne Sandburg and Bert Blyleven
Boggs looks like the only lock this year. Its hard to believe guys who started their careers when I was an adult, have started, , had a great career, retired and been inducted in the hall of fame. They're already done-half the time I still feel like I'm looking for my lifes work...
Yea I agree with you the umpires are way too jumpy, I can understand controlling a game when people are 'settling scores' but to take away the inside of the plate artificially inflates the batting stats, and although in one sense it makes the game exciting with more hitting it takes away too many of the well played 1-0 and 2-1 games that you hardly ever see anymore...
Dont get me started on body armor, I dont want to see anyone seriously hurt, but bumps, bruises and minor injuries also are also parts of the game that you used to be able to factor in, and the self preservation thought in batters heads kept them at least somewhat aware and honest. It is sort of somewhere between amusement at the circus outfits ( good one on the Darth Vader image) and genuine annoyance when i see these guys like Bonds come up in their full body titanium suits. It just doesn'tlook like baseball. It gives yet another advantage to hitters.
I just cant see players from other eras-- Honus Wagner, or Joe Dimaggio, or Willie Mays( who spent half his life on his foot) ever even thinking like that--Mays was great and was knocked down 2-3 times agame, with no armor, and with the higher mound----I hope somewhere along the line, someone will adjust the records to the eras--and they take away all this goddamn football equipment...Its BOOLCHEET
--tell your son to pitch inside anyway--I'm gonna go write aletter to the vets committee
Edit:
Luis facing center field before he gets ready to uncork a pitch:
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mstar1
..and O yea--Happy New Year--I hate to see this one go-the Patriots won the SuperBowl, The Red Sox won the World Series and Boston Rob finished second on Survivor but like a true Bostonian married the million dollars ;-) --Its been a good year
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simonzelotes
Happy New year to you,also(Bullinger)....2004...a great year for Boston...
Yeah,there's a fine line in that 'brushback' pitching....Nobody wants to see another Ray Chapman beaning...On the other hand,that self-preservation thing can be quite a deterrant...
A couple of years ago,my kids's team really got pasted by one of the best teams in the league...Their # 3 hitter was also quite the showboat,as well as a good hitter....After the game,my kid's coach told him "when we play that team again,if you're pitching,I want you to hit that #3 hitter as hard as you could,and don't tell anybody I told you to,'cuz I'll deny it for the rest of my life"...Coach felt that that 13-year-old was disrespecting the game too much...As it turned out,we played that team again,on one of the Oakland A's spring training fields,a beautiful ballpark....Coach started another kid named Mark,a tall lanky kid,who was already shaving and had no idea where any of his pitches were going(Kinda like you)...Mark ended up hitting about 5 kids in that game including their #3 hitter in his first AB,we won handily,and that kid never hit the ball out of the infield and had a nice strawberry on his thigh as a reminder...
Obviously,on the major level,things won't be so overt,because hitters and pitchers are so much more fine-tuned,but you can't let a batter lock in like he's at the batting cage...Interestingly,one of the reasons I think hockey has gotten so much more violent in terms of cheap shots is because the players wear so much armor...Players get a false sense of protection,when they fight they're just beating eachother's helmets,and to really exact vengeance,they often resort to blind-side sucker punches...It seemed to be more of a 'gentleman's' game years ago,...even the fights were clean...
I still like seeing old footage of Norm Cash of the Tigers,standing at home plate without a batting helmet...
Yeah,Julio Franco is still playing...older than God,but not quite as old as me...That's boolcheet....
Incidentally,former umpire Ken Burkhart died yesterday at the age of 89....He was the home plate umpire in the '70 series between the Reds and Orioles,that made that infamous 'out' call on Bernie Carbo at home plate,when after being knocked over and with his back to the play,Elrod Hendrix clearly did not have the ball in his glove that he tagged Carbo 'out' with...O's won that game 4-3...
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mstar1
man you have a memory and ahalf, remembering what umpires umped which games, thats a feat way beyond me, I can remember the Oriole teams of those years and the Reds, and a few plays here and there (me jumping over the shortwall in right and back up to get a Boog Powell foul ball for one)In the AL those were some great Oriole teams---but umps in specific games? Hats off to you. I'm not worthy-you must have been brutal on retemories---
I remember a few guys batting without helmets, Cash always looked like a throwback- sort of what I pictured Babe Ruth may have looked like, sorta heavy and slow and the same sort of face that I saw in the old photos. He could hit the ball a mile too. Reggie Smith was the last guy I saw bat without a helmet and Mike Andrews was the first I saw to wear an earflap, it all changed when Tony Conigliaro got beaned and nearly killed, then it overnight became common practice and probably required to wear the flap. I of course have nothing against that,its good, its when these guys look like robotron coming up, with pads on there knees, legs, elbows, wrists, forearms and biceps that it gets a little much and takes away from the game. --good for those Cub pitchers for finding Bonds toe.
Mays didnt have a helmet for along time and he seemed to do OK, and that in the days when brushbacks were expected.
I don't know why the huge shift has occurred,but I don't like it.. some batters just expect to dig in and never be challenged and worse get bent out of shape if they do. ARod's the worst whining and bitching everytime a pitch is an inch inside-as if he is owed something, and shouldn't actually have to deal with it...to me its part of the game. It's part of he tools that make apitcher a real pitcher. If they are going to go overboard to protect hitters perhaps they should do something like raise the mound back up... or something...
well...Rest in Peace Mr Burkhart
and thank you and goodbye to 2004-it was a great ride, can we do it again next year?
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simonzelotes
And to further beat a dead horse,(isn't baseball great?)I'm not a fan of head-hunting,throwing at a guy's head....I remember when,I think it was Al Downing,hit Ron Santo in the cheek w/ a fastball...Downing even yelled "Lookout!" just before the pitch hit Santo...It just got away from him...Santo had to wear a cheek protector when he returned,about a month later...
One of the ugliest incidents I remember was when the Tigers played the A's in the 70 or '71 playoffs...Bert Campanaris was just destroying the Tigers on the bases,he had already had a bunch of steals in the series...Tigers pitcher threw a pitch right at Campy's feet(and I'll bet my last dollar on instructions from manager Billy Martin),and Campanaris reared back and threw his bat at the pitcher...Tigers pitcher ducked and the bat missed him....I think Campaneris was suspended for the remainder of the playoffs...
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mstar1
Speaking of beating a dead horse reminds me of The John Roseboro incident ( sorry that was an ugly leadin..boo me if you must), I think that was the ugliest I saw -when Juan Marichal clubbed Roseboro over the head with a bat, blood coming down the side of Roseboro's head..it was really really ugly....Yea I'm no fan of headhunting, so dont read me wrong. I saw Tony Conigliaro's career ended and there is nothing quite so sickening as that sound and then the deafening hush in a ballpark after a beaning-its spooky and scary. Even with all that I still think pitchers should take the inside of the plate --just stay away from the head. (is this horse officially dead yet??)
I liked watching Campaneris,inspite of that story about him and inspite of Charlie Finley's clown uniforms during those years. He was sort of like a mosquito always bugging you in a thousand ways, I think there should be a secondary hall, maybe a Hall of Renown or something for players who dont make the Hall of Fame but should still be remembered for one reason or another, for players like Campaneris,Wilbur Wood, Reggie Smith and some of the others we've mentioned. ...maybe they could even have flakes wing with Mark Fydrich, Bill Lee, Dock Ellis and other notables..like.Jimmy Piersall...I'd definitely go....
That knuckleballer I told you about a few posts ago that used to bounces his pitches off my facemask 30 years ago, just emailed me this as a New Years Card. I like it, but maybe you gotta be Red Sox guy...anyway....Happy New Year..
The Sounds Of Fenway
(to the tune of "My Favorite Things")
We give no trade clauses with free agent signing,
The World Series trophy is ours no more whining,
Bullpen with Foulke, no fear of late innings,
These are a few of my favorite things.
On base percentage to fill Bill James’ doodles,
we won’t have our hitters with bats like wet noodles
Four pitches per at bat no more first pitch swings
These are a few of my favorite things.
Damon with power and stolen base dashes,
Manny and Ortiz with their homerun smashes,
No more ‘1918’ heard in Florida springs,
These are a few of my favorite things.
When the Sox lose, when the scribe stings,
when I'm feeling sad,
I simply remember my favorite things,
and then I don't feel so bad.
Pitchers with cornrows and batters with whiskers,
Fenway Park ushers who now have to frisk us,
Admission price has become cheap for kings,
these are a few of my favorite things.
Even more seating and luxury boxes,
Signage and scoreboards and aisles filled with hawkers.
Cold beer and hot dogs with buffalo wings,
these are a few of my favorite things.
Schilling addresses and Francona pep talks,
Lineups with power but also that take walks,
Hot stove league winters that melt into springs,
these are a few of my favorite things.
When the Yanks win, when Roseanne sings,
when I'm feeling sad,
I simply remember 2004,
and then I don't feel so bad.
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simonzelotes
Good poem,the dead horse is beaten,I think we're on the same page on headhunting...I wish I could say the same for your politics
:D-->...Merry New Year...
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mstar1
I think we are probably alot closer than you make me out to be, I just take a different route to things sometimes and it can get a bit (well more than a bit) taken the wrong way, and since I dont particularly relish the idea of writing incredibly long posts to explain all the details of why I view things the way I do only to have them ripped apart, I let alot of things that superficially may sound strange -just be-without a lot of explanation- I don't particularly like the 'headhunting' that goes on in there whether its my head or someone elses. I try to throw my pitch and stay out of that game but come to think of it I probably should throw inside a little more.. I'd probably stay in the game longer..
dam
This horse just wont die--because baseball applies to everything.
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simonzelotes
Yeah,here I just kinda type by the spirit,not so concerned how it comes out...On the political,I have to check my posts line by line and word by word,because,after all,I wouldn't want to use an improper English word...And somebody will find something to pick apart....But at least the umps there let them settle their scores on the field....w/o too many warnings...
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Tom Strange
simontheloaded said (a couple or three weeks ago):
Sorry bro... it won't work... that's the model the stRangers have been trying to use for years... but you knew that!what it takes to win is BIG BIG bags of money! (just ask the Yanks and BoSox)... or should I say "win consistently", year in and year out...
...the rest of us are just their farm system...
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mstar1
WB StrangeOne- I have a lot of laleo'ing in me on that subject but I'll leave it for Simon--
I will however post this from Luis Tiant that I found today:
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simonzelotes
Hey,stRanger's back...Now we have enough for manifestations....
Luis nailed it,and I coudn't have said it better even if I spoke broken English...Whatever happened to the Mike Marshall's,who appeared in 106 games as a reliever?...The Spahn's,The Jenkins',The Lolich's?...Guys who gave you 300 innings a year as if it were mandatory to collect a paycheck...He's right....Management is to blame for the wimpiness of the pitchers...What major league manager wants to wear the monkey on his back of overworking a $15,000,000 a year pitcher?....Get him out of there after 100 pitches so we protect our investment....Something about not finishing what you start,or cleaning up the mess you made,plays into a pitcher's psyche,I think....I mean,even if the guy's cruising along,pitching a three hit shutout,they yank him in the 7th or 8th because he's 'done his job'...What the hell is up with that?...All the teams do it,and I think it sucks....
Which is why,stRangeOne,I would still build a team (tho,I remember saying I don't like being a winter-time GM)around a good,solid-hitting and solid defensive line-up...A good management staff can get quite a bit of mileage out of so-so pitching,which to me,is a position on the team in which success lays more between the ears than any of the other eight positions....
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mstar1
You may have noticed the Red Sox cut Pedro Martinez loose, for his salary they picked up 5 other pitchers. I wouldn't call them so-so but they certainly haven't got his name. I think that management made a very smart calculated risk..5 guys with relatively low financial risk and possible high return, at the very least they should be able to eat up alot of innings between them or at least more than Martinez would.
and no StrangeOne I dont really think it takes bucketloads of money (although it can help). The A's have been doing well for years with one of the smallest payrolls in the game. The Red Sox have to spend alot of money, since the Yankees are in the same division and the fanbase would skin them if they weren't close, but even though they spend alot-I can see that they are trying to bring it down and not continue to pay the overpriced guys. I think the trend will be to move back to fiscal sanity and play smarter and tighter not richer---
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simonzelotes
By the way....You mentioned Dock Ellis....Years ago,he confessed to being on LSD when he pitched his no-hitter...
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mstar1
Thats why I nominated him for The Mark Fydrich Wing of The Hall of Renown. The place for those a just tad bit off.
I love This Page about Dock at the Baseball Reference site
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simonzelotes
Congrats to Rhino and Boggs on getting voted into the Hall...Boggs was a shoe-in....Sandberg's glove definitely heped him get selected....
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simonzelotes
Hey,Mstar,...what do you think of Doug Mientkiewicz wanting to keep the ball that the Bosox recorded the last out in the World Series with?...CEO Larry Lucchiano thinks he should give it back to the Sox so they can have it in their archives...
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