I spose the short answer is that you have to do it under a doctors ( a real doctors) care...there were bogus "fill out the prescription having never met the patient" doctors named in the report as well who sold HGH in large quantities illegally over the internet
There is a long section in the report regarding HGH which I dont want to try to recount without reading again (Ive been up quite awhile) so I wont go for the Pettite thing right now --maybe I'll give it a shot tomorrow (another blizzard is coming..ugh..which should give me some time....)
As far as Clemens goes, he fits the profile, if there is such a thing as a profile, to a "T", athletes just dont have their best years in their forties. He was mediocre at best his last years with the Red Sox (about 10 years ago) and went through an amazing resurgence that fits within the time frame of the investigation. The witness risked severe jail time by federal authorities if he lied in any manner, he had nothing to gain and could only lose by lying...
Im no expert on these matters but if I was innocent and had been accused, I would personally--- myself---not a spokesman, not a lawyer--but myself be on every news channel the next day and announce my lawyer would file a libel suit within 48 hours.
He was given an opportunity to talk to the commission and refused.
So far, as when the Canseco book came out, there is lot of bluster and pretended outrage but not alot of backing it up with what would seem like appropriate and logical action.
To me it doesnt look good for him...In one sense those named should all be thankful that one of Senator Mitchell's first recommendations was not to punish players in the report, I dont know if I would be quite so charitable. I would have no problem striking any records from the books and banning them for life if they were found guilty.
Well... that's the point I was trying to make -- that to really take any serious action against anyone in particular, you'll need much stronger evidence than is noted in the Mitchell report. And the union AIN'T gonna make it easy to do that.
The witness risked severe jail time by federal authorities if he lied in any manner, he had nothing to gain and could only lose by lying...
and sadly, the same goes for Pettitte... same witness, a yankee 'trainer' (the "McNamee" referred to in the quote in my post) brought in by Clemons from Toronto IIRC..
and sadly, the same goes for Pettitte... same witness, a yankee 'trainer' (the "McNamee" referred to in the quote in my post) brought in by Clemons from Toronto IIRC..
When I think of Roger Clemens, I think of the bozo that threw the spear end of a broken bat at what's his name... the catcher... Mike Piazza.
Well... that's the point I was trying to make -- that to really take any serious action against anyone in particular, you'll need much stronger evidence than is noted in the Mitchell report. And the union AIN'T gonna make it easy to do that.
My guess is that Mitchell also knows how time consuming, expensive, detrimental financially and far reaching this would be for the business of baseball as well and concluded that the best course of action overall for MLB is to fix the problem now and move on.
MLB is a 6+Billion/year business and has never been more popular. This has been quite an accomplishment after the PR fiasco of the '94 strike where fans left baseball in droves...but the resurgence in part has been driven by the steroid assault on records and accomplishments that can capture the public eye. IMO many high level executives of the game turned a blind eye and were complicit in allowing the steroid era to continue for far too long because it was extremely profitable to allow it.
Where would you draw the line? You cant ban everyone in the game, and for everyone who did get caught or was implicated, tried, and banned there would be several that covered their tracks.
Practically The best you probably could have would be scapegoats who take the brunt of the punishment for a more widely pervasive problem, like the Black Sox of 1919.
It would put a swift halt to the problem if the penalties were as severe as in 1919 and it would be fine with me to clear up this mess for once and for all.
Apparently, enough people thought so that A-Rod felt compelled to come out and flat out deny steroids use. And didn't use the kind of language that Bonds did.
A-Rod apparently said "I have never used steroids!"
I'm also not accusing anyone of anything. I was responding to a comment that seems to have been re thought out and edited.
If Canseco is so credible now, then that means that almost EVERYONE is on roids. I forget the percentage he stated, but it's way more than half the players.
For a young team on the cusp like the DBacks that could put them over the top imo
Nice deal by Josh Byrnes
Yes... I'm aware of the big trading day the Dbacks had yesterday. I mentioned it on this thread, btw.
Byrnes DID do good... and having traded Valverde, is NOT being criticized locally for doing so... THAT, IMO, is a very significant indicator of the incredible job he did yesterday. I'm pleased to see that the Dbacks got Qualls from Houston. He gave the Dbacks fits everytime he came in a game against us.
If Canseco is so credible now, then that means that almost EVERYONE is on roids. I forget the percentage he stated, but it's way more than half the players.
Having never read "Juiced" I cant say what his percentages were (30%?--50%?--60%?--more?)but I could see the possibility of it being close to accurate whatever it was --
My highschool had a rampant underlying drug culture that nobody thought much of in the early 70's because "everybody did it". It was hidden, more or less accepted and "winked at" until a Life Magazine article surprised and outraged the town. The school system promised a 'crackdown' and investigation but nothing ever really happened. A small handful get some sort of disciplinary action each year for show ...but the underlying drug usage is still happening there 35 years later.
Looking back I would estimate about 70% of the students I knew at least dabbled in drugs and experimented, a lesser percentage were more serious committed users. The kids in the old neighborhood tell me its still about the same..ie more than not
Within a peer group, whether High School or MLB where certain things are tacitly accepted, and swept under the rug as they have been for a generation or more, its not beyond the pail to think that the percentages and patterns of usage within the groups, and the inner dynamics could be similar.
Canseco of course is an attention whore and is trying to make a buck wherever he can. This doesn't change the fact that he's intimately familiar with the PED black market and has been accurate so far in many of the things that he has stated
Whatever you may think about him as a person, (and yes, I think he is a scumbag)Jose Canseco has earned himself some credibility on this subject.
Canseco of course is an attention whore and is trying to make a buck wherever he can. This doesn't change the fact that he's intimately familiar with the PED black market and has been accurate so far in many of the things that he has stated
Whatever you may think about him as a person, (and yes, I think he is a scumbag)Jose Canseco has earned himself some credibility on this subject.
I wish I didn't have to say this, I really do, but I agree with those statements above...
I think his outrageous allegations have proven out to be more fact than fiction... and forgetting the fact that he's an attention whore for a minute, he's been an unbridaled speaker on the subject in that he speaks without fear of 'what will happen to him'...
I had to get the oil changed and inspection on 'she who must be obeyed's' car Saturday, found the MLB station on XM, then turned up to the play by play stations, every one of them was some guy reading the entire Mitchell Report word for word...
anyway, Pettitte's 'admission' seems to make RC look pretty guilty but I gotta wonder, if the quote from the trainer had been 4 times would AP then have admitted to 4? Ya know what I mean? he admits to "2 times" but was it because that was all he was accused of or is that all there was?
I hardly believe any of the pro athletes any more... my worship of them is tainted! ...say it ain't so Joe!
I had to get the oil changed and inspection on 'she who must be obeyed's' car Saturday, found the MLB station on XM, then turned up to the play by play stations, every one of them was some guy reading the entire Mitchell Report word for word...
anyway, Pettitte's 'admission' seems to make RC look pretty guilty but I gotta wonder, if the quote from the trainer had been 4 times would AP then have admitted to 4? Ya know what I mean? he admits to "2 times" but was it because that was all he was accused of or is that all there was?
I hardly believe any of the pro athletes any more... my worship of them is tainted! ...say it ain't so Joe!
Well, A-Rod last night, to me, when he answered THE question, looked like he was lying... but no way to really tell. However, the images of him taking swings in his custom made, home batting cage... well, the images alone were so-so... BUT with the SOUND?! That crack of the bat clearly lent credibility to everything he said in the interview. So, MY take is this -- IF with diligent testing, he always comes up with negative results... and if his performance doesn't take a nose dive, then A-Rod's off the hook completely.
Clemens, well, NO way I'm believing him. Petitte... probably did what he had to do (this weekend, I mean).
Everybody looking for (calculating) ways to minimize the damage. Petitte's will probably work. A-Rod's will probably work. No way am I believing Clemens... he just flat out denied any use. And THAT has to be bull hockey.
Since 'the list' is so selective, and barely scratches the surface, maybe every player in baseball needs to be asked 'the question', so we can judge whether he's lieing or not.
The results of that study prove that a huge problem exists, and baseball better start getting serious about testing, and enforcing.
Beyond that, it's incredibly shallow, in that it all rests on a couple of clubhouse guys claims. If the goal was to verify the problem, it succeeded admirably. If the goal was to name names, then every clubhouse should have been grilled and put under the microscope. As it stands, it's ridiculous to me that scores of players are sitting back and watching a select few get hammered, while they're 'off the hook'.
But I still believe that this will not ever have a chance of going away until they start doing blood testing... of course, then it would probably turn out like professional cycling, and it probably is... sadly.
But I still believe that this will not ever have a chance of going away until they start doing blood testing... of course, then it would probably turn out like professional cycling, and it probably is... sadly.
the quote from the trainer had been 4 times would AP then have admitted to 4? Ya know what I mean? he admits to "2 times" but was it because that was all he was accused of or is that all there was?
"I only had one beer officer"
I dont know about you guys but in days past when I imbibed, I said that more than once, regardless of how much I had to drink...and I also never knew how that mysterious roach got under the seat--It mustve been that 'hitchhiker' I picked up....
I can only speak for myself but the more vehemently I argued back then, the more I was most likely lying.
I could be projecting and I could also be wrong but Roger reminds me of that.
Looking at the arc of his career gives me ( I am not a court of law) enough evidence to believe that it is true.
The Arod interview looked a little too scripted to me to be comfortable.
It reminded me of the Bill Clinton interview with the loving wife by his side after he had been accused of being with Jennifer Flowers. It looked too played and rehearsed as if ARod was using it as a PR offensive to change his public image. It didnt help that Katie Couric was throwing him softball after softball since it was out her her area of expertise.
and.....I just found this vid....I happened to be in NYC yesterday---I think this is the guy I was talking to..
Thu Dec 20, 12:23 PM ET NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling has called on Roger Clemens to give up four of his Cy Young Awards if he cannot clear his name after allegations in the Mitchell report that he used steroids.
While Clemens has denied allegations detailed by former Sen. George Mitchell's report into doping in Major League Baseball, Schilling wrote in his blog (38pitches.com) that he believes Clemens must take legal action to prove his innocence.continued...
At this point-seems to me some WANT Arod to be guilty, so there's a whole lot of interpreting and reading into his statements.
As I've said, I'd be more comfortable with ' the list' if the 50 million spent had gone into talking to more than 2 guys. As far as Schilling goes, he may have had some extra 'help' playing behind him in Boston, Arizona, and Philly. Oh right, those players aren't on 'the list', so of course they're innocent. Maybe a few hundred million more will inspire the investigators to ask a few more questions, to a few more clubhouses.
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I missed the LLWS. The boy had baseball practice 4-7. Playing in a USSSA tournament this coming weekend. The new season has just started. Can ya'll believe we are in September of the ML baseball s
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Rocky
Well... that's the point I was trying to make -- that to really take any serious action against anyone in particular, you'll need much stronger evidence than is noted in the Mitchell report. And the union AIN'T gonna make it easy to do that.
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Tom Strange
and sadly, the same goes for Pettitte... same witness, a yankee 'trainer' (the "McNamee" referred to in the quote in my post) brought in by Clemons from Toronto IIRC..
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Rocky
When I think of Roger Clemens, I think of the bozo that threw the spear end of a broken bat at what's his name... the catcher... Mike Piazza.
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mstar1
Anabolic/Androgenic Steroid Use and Aggression --A Review of the Evidence
My guess is that Mitchell also knows how time consuming, expensive, detrimental financially and far reaching this would be for the business of baseball as well and concluded that the best course of action overall for MLB is to fix the problem now and move on.
MLB is a 6+Billion/year business and has never been more popular. This has been quite an accomplishment after the PR fiasco of the '94 strike where fans left baseball in droves...but the resurgence in part has been driven by the steroid assault on records and accomplishments that can capture the public eye. IMO many high level executives of the game turned a blind eye and were complicit in allowing the steroid era to continue for far too long because it was extremely profitable to allow it.
Where would you draw the line? You cant ban everyone in the game, and for everyone who did get caught or was implicated, tried, and banned there would be several that covered their tracks.
Practically The best you probably could have would be scapegoats who take the brunt of the punishment for a more widely pervasive problem, like the Black Sox of 1919.
It would put a swift halt to the problem if the penalties were as severe as in 1919 and it would be fine with me to clear up this mess for once and for all.
Nobody is bigger than the game
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excathedra
thanks guys
but do you really think a-rod did ?
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Rocky
Apparently, enough people thought so that A-Rod felt compelled to come out and flat out deny steroids use. And didn't use the kind of language that Bonds did.
A-Rod apparently said "I have never used steroids!"
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mstar1
It was Canseco who said he did, he took alot of heat when his book came out, But, Im trying to think, has Jose ever called name and been wrong?
also
(especially for Rock)
DBacks acquire Danny Haren
For a young team on the cusp like the DBacks that could put them over the top imo
Nice deal by Josh Byrnes
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hiway29
Allegations haven't been 'disproved' ?
Isn't that kind of backwards in our legal system?
Hey-I could say Manny and Ortiz are on roids-If it isn't 'disproved' how can you say I'm wrong, by that logic.
Or did that 'disproved' comment just get edited out?
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hiway29
I'm also not accusing anyone of anything. I was responding to a comment that seems to have been re thought out and edited.
If Canseco is so credible now, then that means that almost EVERYONE is on roids. I forget the percentage he stated, but it's way more than half the players.
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Rocky
To my knowledge, this situation (notably, regarding A-Rod) is NOT related to "our legal system."
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Rocky
Yes... I'm aware of the big trading day the Dbacks had yesterday. I mentioned it on this thread, btw.
Byrnes DID do good... and having traded Valverde, is NOT being criticized locally for doing so... THAT, IMO, is a very significant indicator of the incredible job he did yesterday. I'm pleased to see that the Dbacks got Qualls from Houston. He gave the Dbacks fits everytime he came in a game against us.
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mstar1
Having never read "Juiced" I cant say what his percentages were (30%?--50%?--60%?--more?)but I could see the possibility of it being close to accurate whatever it was --
My highschool had a rampant underlying drug culture that nobody thought much of in the early 70's because "everybody did it". It was hidden, more or less accepted and "winked at" until a Life Magazine article surprised and outraged the town. The school system promised a 'crackdown' and investigation but nothing ever really happened. A small handful get some sort of disciplinary action each year for show ...but the underlying drug usage is still happening there 35 years later.
Looking back I would estimate about 70% of the students I knew at least dabbled in drugs and experimented, a lesser percentage were more serious committed users. The kids in the old neighborhood tell me its still about the same..ie more than not
Within a peer group, whether High School or MLB where certain things are tacitly accepted, and swept under the rug as they have been for a generation or more, its not beyond the pail to think that the percentages and patterns of usage within the groups, and the inner dynamics could be similar.
Canseco of course is an attention whore and is trying to make a buck wherever he can. This doesn't change the fact that he's intimately familiar with the PED black market and has been accurate so far in many of the things that he has stated
Whatever you may think about him as a person, (and yes, I think he is a scumbag)Jose Canseco has earned himself some credibility on this subject.
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Tom Strange
I wish I didn't have to say this, I really do, but I agree with those statements above...
I think his outrageous allegations have proven out to be more fact than fiction... and forgetting the fact that he's an attention whore for a minute, he's been an unbridaled speaker on the subject in that he speaks without fear of 'what will happen to him'...
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excathedra
i'm really sad if he's right about a-rod
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Tom Strange
A-Rod on 60 minutes last night with Katie...
I had to get the oil changed and inspection on 'she who must be obeyed's' car Saturday, found the MLB station on XM, then turned up to the play by play stations, every one of them was some guy reading the entire Mitchell Report word for word...
anyway, Pettitte's 'admission' seems to make RC look pretty guilty but I gotta wonder, if the quote from the trainer had been 4 times would AP then have admitted to 4? Ya know what I mean? he admits to "2 times" but was it because that was all he was accused of or is that all there was?
I hardly believe any of the pro athletes any more... my worship of them is tainted! ...say it ain't so Joe!
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Rocky
Well, A-Rod last night, to me, when he answered THE question, looked like he was lying... but no way to really tell. However, the images of him taking swings in his custom made, home batting cage... well, the images alone were so-so... BUT with the SOUND?! That crack of the bat clearly lent credibility to everything he said in the interview. So, MY take is this -- IF with diligent testing, he always comes up with negative results... and if his performance doesn't take a nose dive, then A-Rod's off the hook completely.
Clemens, well, NO way I'm believing him. Petitte... probably did what he had to do (this weekend, I mean).
Everybody looking for (calculating) ways to minimize the damage. Petitte's will probably work. A-Rod's will probably work. No way am I believing Clemens... he just flat out denied any use. And THAT has to be bull hockey.
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hiway29
Since 'the list' is so selective, and barely scratches the surface, maybe every player in baseball needs to be asked 'the question', so we can judge whether he's lieing or not.
The results of that study prove that a huge problem exists, and baseball better start getting serious about testing, and enforcing.
Beyond that, it's incredibly shallow, in that it all rests on a couple of clubhouse guys claims. If the goal was to verify the problem, it succeeded admirably. If the goal was to name names, then every clubhouse should have been grilled and put under the microscope. As it stands, it's ridiculous to me that scores of players are sitting back and watching a select few get hammered, while they're 'off the hook'.
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Tom Strange
I concur hiway... I concur.
But I still believe that this will not ever have a chance of going away until they start doing blood testing... of course, then it would probably turn out like professional cycling, and it probably is... sadly.
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Rocky
As do I.
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Tom Strange
Any thoughts on Clemens' stern denial? Yeah, it's kind of giving me tired head, too...
...on a brighter note, only a couple of months until 'Pitchers and Catchers'!
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Rocky
Do you mean other than -- I don't believe him?
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mstar1
"I only had one beer officer"
I dont know about you guys but in days past when I imbibed, I said that more than once, regardless of how much I had to drink...and I also never knew how that mysterious roach got under the seat--It mustve been that 'hitchhiker' I picked up....
I can only speak for myself but the more vehemently I argued back then, the more I was most likely lying.
I could be projecting and I could also be wrong but Roger reminds me of that.
Looking at the arc of his career gives me ( I am not a court of law) enough evidence to believe that it is true.
The Arod interview looked a little too scripted to me to be comfortable.
It reminded me of the Bill Clinton interview with the loving wife by his side after he had been accused of being with Jennifer Flowers. It looked too played and rehearsed as if ARod was using it as a PR offensive to change his public image. It didnt help that Katie Couric was throwing him softball after softball since it was out her her area of expertise.
and.....I just found this vid....I happened to be in NYC yesterday---I think this is the guy I was talking to..
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Rocky
Schilling to Clemens: prove it!
Clemens told to prove innocence or return awards
Thu Dec 20, 12:23 PM ET NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling has called on Roger Clemens to give up four of his Cy Young Awards if he cannot clear his name after allegations in the Mitchell report that he used steroids.
While Clemens has denied allegations detailed by former Sen. George Mitchell's report into doping in Major League Baseball, Schilling wrote in his blog (38pitches.com) that he believes Clemens must take legal action to prove his innocence.continued...
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hiway29
At this point-seems to me some WANT Arod to be guilty, so there's a whole lot of interpreting and reading into his statements.
As I've said, I'd be more comfortable with ' the list' if the 50 million spent had gone into talking to more than 2 guys. As far as Schilling goes, he may have had some extra 'help' playing behind him in Boston, Arizona, and Philly. Oh right, those players aren't on 'the list', so of course they're innocent. Maybe a few hundred million more will inspire the investigators to ask a few more questions, to a few more clubhouses.
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