I just finished reading the summary and recommendations intro to the report a second time, a little slower this time and I have to say I am impressed. Mitchell gets it. He realizes that looking back to the past is necessary to influence the future, but doesn't think everyone should be focused on naming names and getting "a list". He debated not including names, but correctly concluded that it would have hurt the credibility of his report for it to be anonymous.
The blame is placed proportionally on everyone involved, and he definitely recognizes the own limitations of his own investigation, such as the lack of widespread sources, the lack of cooperation, and even the lack of usefulness of looking to the past. His recommendations are very logical, and fairly easily implemented. I had my doubts about the usefullness of this report (and still do). IF Selig took these suggestions to heart, then it would be well worth the money. At the least, I encourage everyone to read the intro (it's about 35 double spaced pages, and it's a quick read).
Judging from his press conference, I still think Selig is an idiot for 2 reasons:
1. He claimed not to read the report thoroughly. He's had 3 days to do so before anyone else. If he hasn't read the biggest MLB story of the year, he's even more inept than I thought. I'm still inclined to think he's a liar.
2. He disregarding the FIRST recommendation of the report: not to discipline players. If the point was truly to "move on" then he should focus on the changes that need to be made, not on punishing people for transgressions 2-9 years old.
It seems to me Mitchell's having it both ways concerning the 'list'. He doesn't want to do that, yet a long list is provided, crucifying those players, while potentially hundreds are 'off the hook'.
Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age, but I do find it curious that with Mitchell's Red Sox ties, there's no Sock on the list. And don't tell me Gagne qualifies.I'm just wondering.
The Dodgers got hit particularly hard. Who knew LoDuca was so busy. Not to sound like I know anything, which I clearly don't, but I always thought Gagne looked a little too puffed and jacked up when he was blowing down the NL.
Gagne? what about Clemens? anyway... I don't like the whole (as apparently others don't either) Larry Bigbie-Brian Roberts thing... and others in that section... it's a lot of "well, he said that he heard that..." and then, of course, the players named refused to come in, and then Mitchell goes ahead and names them anyway... what good would it have done to 'come in'? Perhaps Mitchell would've then said 'so and so came in and denied saying that' but he still included their names anyway...
Maybe the point of the whole thing was to just throw it up on the wall for everyone to see... to satisfy the Congressional oversite committee's curiosity... at least that's what it's playing out like to me... they've got pretty stiff penalties in now, they need to focus on better ways to catch them... and if the players association doesn't go along newer, stiffer, testing methods (like blood testing)... they are the ones that will look bad...
From what I've heard the blood testing would solve a lot of the 'mystery' around whether or not someone is doping... HGH is detectable in blood testing but the MLBPA only allows urine testing...
Clemens is of course, now in Barry Bonds territory, and can kiss the Hall goodbye. It seems he didn't start until he was with the Blue Jays.
I'm just asking questions. Like why give this job to someone who's on the payroll of a major league team ? And whoever heard of a U.S. Senator protecting his own interests ?
The whole evidence seems to come down to 2 clubhouse guys, that decided to squeal. That means there's alot of other clubhouse guys yet to be heard from, and scores of players that just dodged a bullet. I think the naming of these players, who's careers will forever be ruined,on the say so of some clubhouse guy, was unfair, and potentially libelous.
It's the tip of the iceberg, and the chosen few will take the bullet for the rest.
When the Boston Red Sox were considering acquiring Gagné, a Red Sox official made specific inquiries about Gagné’s possible use of steroids. In a November 1, 2006 email to a Red Sox scout, general manager Theo Epstein asked, “Have you done any digging on Gagne? I know the Dodgers think he was a steroid guy. Maybe so. What do you hear on his medical?”
The scout, Mark Delpiano, responded:
Some digging on Gagne and steroids IS the issue. Has had a checkered medical past throughout career including minor leagues. Lacks the poise and commitment to stay healthy, maintain body and re invent self. What made him a tenacious closer was the max effort plus stuff . . . Mentality without the plus weapons and without steroid help probably creates a large risk in bounce back durability and ability to throw average while allowing the change-up to play as it once did . . . Personally, durability (or lack of) will follow Gagne .
(Good Luck to the Brewers..)
This was in November of 06, Im assuming that his first half performance with the Rangers, as well as the fragility of Okajima brought on the trade at the dealine in 07, although it still sort of surprises me that they would go forward with it, unless the scouting of thje first half of 07 over rode this one email..
It could have been any team that was implicated, as it was, the primary two informants that would talk happened to be associated with NY teams, so its natural they took the brunt of the hit. If I know anything about drug dealers its that for every two that you detect there are a whole pile that you dont...If law enforcemnet had busted someone from St. Louis, or Seattle, or Miami, or Baltimore, or Boston instead the list may have looked completely different..
The list which was looked forward to is a relatively minor part of the whole thing, I think the point Mitchell was making is how pervasive PEDs are , and some were 'unlucky ' enough to get caught as examples to that end.. I would be willing to guess thatthere were hordes more who are breathing a huge sigh of relief this morning that their names were not included because their sources were from somewhere outside the scope of the investigatiion
I cant believe that some of these guys signed their names on checks....or like Gagne had it mailed directly to them at Dodger Stadium
I stand corrected about no Sox, though I admit I've never heard of alot of those guys, and others had a 'cup of coffee' with them.
The list may be minor, compared to the scope of the thing, but those players can never show their face in a game again, without chanting and whatnot, going on. That's while they're playing with guys just as guilty, who weren't in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Yes there will be chants and maybe there should be, I have hard time feeling sorry for anyone who makes tens of millions of dollars, who doesnt face any type of prosecution, who had an opportunity to answer for themselves and turned it down, and now feels bad because their name has been sullied..
Life is full of injustice, nobody is going to burn anyone in an oven or lock them in prison indefinitely without a trial, the worse that will happen is someone wont get a small bronze plaque in a little building in upstate NY and will have to live on the meager savings that they earned while defiling the game
Boo Hoo
The response so far reminds me of the Canseco book, when several were "outraged", yet no lawsuits resulted...
I didn't say I felt sorry for, or was excusing those named.
I said it was the tip of the iceberg, and those select players are taking the bullet for all the rest.
At least you're putting baseball in it's proper perspective. It's guys getting rich for hitting a ball with a stick, and is ultimately meaningless. No one is going to the ovens, as you say.
World Series wins, home run records, etc, are just candy to keep us entertained while we try to gut it out through life.
You're right. Life isn't fair. If you can get away with something , while the guy next to you gets nabbed, it's all good.
If the MLBPA doesn't allow blood testing this is all for nought...
The way I figure it is that they got about 90 names from two clubhouse guys... what if they got ten clubhouse guys to talk? ...I'm betting we'd have close to a thousand names from over the years... I know there's gonna be overlapping, but so many from back in the 90's were saying 20 to 30 percent was where they'd put the usage at...
re: Gagne, Makes that trade look even better, from a Rangers standpoint.
Would the Astros have been able to make a better trade for Miguel Tejada if they'd waited just one more day?
If the MLBPA doesn't allow blood testing this is all for nought...
The way I figure it is that they got about 90 names from two clubhouse guys... what if they got ten clubhouse guys to talk? ...I'm betting we'd have close to a thousand names from over the years... I know there's gonna be overlapping, but so many from back in the 90's were saying 20 to 30 percent was where they'd put the usage at...
re: Gagne, Makes that trade look even better, from a Rangers standpoint.
Would the Astros have been able to make a better trade for Miguel Tejada if they'd waited just one more day?
If Fehr has his way, this WILL be all for naught.
That's more or less what I expected.
Hiway... it won't be nearly as bad for the named players as you suspect...
One day of weeping and gnashing of teeth and a life time of sweeping (under rugs).
And I don't know what Selig's going to be able to do... that could have simply been first day bluster... the union's going to go to bat for any of them that face any repercussions from the league... and that alone WILL obscure the issues.
BUT... IF they do blood testing, then we can say they will have made progress.
The most significant thing that needed (still needs) to get addressed is the cultural impact on youth wanting to develop themselves into professional athletes. THAT youths feel they can and should do steroids has got to change.
The most significant thing that needed (still needs) to get addressed is the cultural impact on youth wanting to develop themselves into professional athletes. THAT youths feel they can and should do steroids has got to change.
That was one of the major points that Mitchell made early on yesterday, introducing the man whose son committed suicide. Whether they like it or not ballplayers are in the public eye and rolemodels . MLB has to take its responsibility to society at large seriously...
Would the Astros have been able to make a better trade for Miguel Tejada if they'd waited just one more day?
Interesting,
I wondered if the O's dumped him when they did, (the day before the report) knowing there was alikelihood he would be named..
I also wonder if teams can void contracts if a player was named. I sort of doubt it as the players association is too powerful.
Life isn't fair. If you can get away with something , while the guy next to you gets nabbed, it's all good.
That wasnt my point
Im not excusing the players who werent caught, and I wouldnt call being caught for cheating, while some werent, an injustice. They cheated, they got caught
They all deserve to be named, but unless this thing goes on for years and years it would never happen.
They still get all the spoils with little or no penalties.
Individual players arent even really the point, the point is to clean up the game and work a way to end it.
If Fehr has his way, this WILL be all for naught.
I dont know about that. IMO it would be the worst thing that he could do. The exposure has happened, granted he is in a delicate postion but his job is also to protect the nonsteroid enhanced players from playing under an unfair disadvantage. If he doesnt act for the good of those players who are the future of the MLBPA he will look really bad
btw I have Game 5 of the ALCS on, Sox are down 3-1 in the series to Cleveland but up 4-1 in the 7th, Beckett is looking good! My money is that the Sox will come back
I dont know about that. IMO it would be the worst thing that he could do. The exposure has happened, granted he is in a delicate postion but his job is also to protect the nonsteroid enhanced players from playing under an unfair disadvantage. If he doesnt act for the good of those players who are the future of the MLBPA he will look really bad.
In reading through the Mitchell Report, the senator offers MLB advice on what should happen moving forward.
Two suggestions caught my eye: He wants a process to account for packages players receive at the clubhouse and background checks for clubhouse employees.
This makes a lot of sense. I started covering baseball in New York in 2000 and it always has amazed me how much power that the clubhouse managers and their assistants have. Their jobs seem pretty simple. They’re supposed to keep the place clean, do laundry and help with the equipment.
But in covering the Mets and Yankees, I’ve seen players hand clubhouse guys thousands of dollars to run errands, wash their cars, pick up friends at the airport, etc. Apparently, getting them steroids as well at Shea Stadium. The “clubbies” do everything.
It’s pretty common knowledge around baseball that players who are cheating on their wives will have a clubbie get him a second cell phone so he can talk to his girlfriend. The bill is then sent to the clubhouse. Obtaining steroids seems to work the same way. I can guarantee you that the cash transactions that Mitchell couldn’t account for were likely handled by clubbies.
In most cases, teams have no idea who these clubbies are. The clubhouse manager hires who he wants and his assistants are usually paid in tips. Alex Rodriguez has his own clubbie with the Yankees, a guy who literally stands there and holds drinks for him.
You hear stories all the time of clubbies getting $50,000 SUVs from players or trips to Vegas. What sorts of favors are you going for somebody when that is the reward?
For decades, baseball has operated with few outsiders peering behind the curtain. If Mitchell accomplished anything, perhaps he convinced owners and general managers to take a better look at who works most closely with the players.
Kirk Radomski got his start folding towels. Maybe if somebody was paying closer attention, he wouldn’t have started a drug ring.
I like those ideas. Yet, I don't think background checks on "clubbies" will put a stop to anything.
Tracking packages, however, could be helpful... but I'm thinking that guys with lots of spending money and mischief on their minds can find plenty of ways around that too... can you say "Mailboxes, Etc."?
There will always be a way around it if someone is desperate enough.The least they can do is make it difficult (no more packages mailed directly to the ballpark is a good start!) and let them know that no one is going to turn a blind eye anymore and that it will no longer be tolerated.
If the chances of getting caught increase. threat of expulsion is real, and the difficulty in acquiring them covertly increases, few I would guess would be willing to risk their high paying careers
There will always be a way around it if someone is desperate enough.The least they can do is make it difficult (no more packages mailed directly to the ballpark is a good start!) and let them know that no one is going to turn a blind eye anymore and that it will no longer be tolerated.
If the chances of getting caught increase. threat of expulsion is real, and the difficulty in acquiring them covertly increases, few I would guess would be willing to risk their high paying careers
And, especially for the sake of teenagers now and in the decades to come... make major examples of the cost of using... in every way that cost can be portrayed.
I don't know anything about Petitte (other than the Dbacks beat him in the 2001 WS) and I don't know what Clemens is saying... but I'd bet Clemens is lying, no matter what he's saying. I've felt for a long time that he's got a cheaters' mentality. :blink:
And the Dbacks picked up Dan Haren today! An excellent move, IMO.
i heard something on the radio regarding Pettitte that i wanted to ask you about
supposedly during off season he was trying to get his elbow to heal faster or something ? thus.....
what do you think ?
side note: clemens must be lying
I'll take that... here's what the report says on page 176 myseestorex:
From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow tendonitis.395 McNamee said that Pettitte called him while Pettitte was rehabilitating his elbow
in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team. McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte’s request and spent about ten days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone.
According to McNamee, around the time in 2003 that the BALCO searches became public, Pettitte asked what he should say if a reporter asked Pettitte whether he ever used
performance enhancing substances. McNamee told him he was free to say what he wanted, but that he should not go out of his way to bring it up. McNamee also asked Pettitte not to mention his name. McNamee never discussed these substances with Pettitte again.
This is from the same guy that's implicating Clemons...
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I only got through page 145 and had to stop for a while... so far, unimpressed.
Maybe I just haven't gotten to the meat of it yet...
maybe they just figured "that goes without saying"...!
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mstar1
I just finished reading the summary and recommendations intro to the report a second time, a little slower this time and I have to say I am impressed. Mitchell gets it. He realizes that looking back to the past is necessary to influence the future, but doesn't think everyone should be focused on naming names and getting "a list". He debated not including names, but correctly concluded that it would have hurt the credibility of his report for it to be anonymous.
The blame is placed proportionally on everyone involved, and he definitely recognizes the own limitations of his own investigation, such as the lack of widespread sources, the lack of cooperation, and even the lack of usefulness of looking to the past. His recommendations are very logical, and fairly easily implemented. I had my doubts about the usefullness of this report (and still do). IF Selig took these suggestions to heart, then it would be well worth the money. At the least, I encourage everyone to read the intro (it's about 35 double spaced pages, and it's a quick read).
Judging from his press conference, I still think Selig is an idiot for 2 reasons:
1. He claimed not to read the report thoroughly. He's had 3 days to do so before anyone else. If he hasn't read the biggest MLB story of the year, he's even more inept than I thought. I'm still inclined to think he's a liar.
2. He disregarding the FIRST recommendation of the report: not to discipline players. If the point was truly to "move on" then he should focus on the changes that need to be made, not on punishing people for transgressions 2-9 years old.
I just wanted to give credit to Mitchell...
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hiway29
It seems to me Mitchell's having it both ways concerning the 'list'. He doesn't want to do that, yet a long list is provided, crucifying those players, while potentially hundreds are 'off the hook'.
Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age, but I do find it curious that with Mitchell's Red Sox ties, there's no Sock on the list. And don't tell me Gagne qualifies.I'm just wondering.
The Dodgers got hit particularly hard. Who knew LoDuca was so busy. Not to sound like I know anything, which I clearly don't, but I always thought Gagne looked a little too puffed and jacked up when he was blowing down the NL.
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Tom Strange
Gagne? what about Clemens? anyway... I don't like the whole (as apparently others don't either) Larry Bigbie-Brian Roberts thing... and others in that section... it's a lot of "well, he said that he heard that..." and then, of course, the players named refused to come in, and then Mitchell goes ahead and names them anyway... what good would it have done to 'come in'? Perhaps Mitchell would've then said 'so and so came in and denied saying that' but he still included their names anyway...
Maybe the point of the whole thing was to just throw it up on the wall for everyone to see... to satisfy the Congressional oversite committee's curiosity... at least that's what it's playing out like to me... they've got pretty stiff penalties in now, they need to focus on better ways to catch them... and if the players association doesn't go along newer, stiffer, testing methods (like blood testing)... they are the ones that will look bad...
From what I've heard the blood testing would solve a lot of the 'mystery' around whether or not someone is doping... HGH is detectable in blood testing but the MLBPA only allows urine testing...
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hiway29
Clemens is of course, now in Barry Bonds territory, and can kiss the Hall goodbye. It seems he didn't start until he was with the Blue Jays.
I'm just asking questions. Like why give this job to someone who's on the payroll of a major league team ? And whoever heard of a U.S. Senator protecting his own interests ?
The whole evidence seems to come down to 2 clubhouse guys, that decided to squeal. That means there's alot of other clubhouse guys yet to be heard from, and scores of players that just dodged a bullet. I think the naming of these players, who's careers will forever be ruined,on the say so of some clubhouse guy, was unfair, and potentially libelous.
It's the tip of the iceberg, and the chosen few will take the bullet for the rest.
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mstar1
14 Red Sox, 17 Yankees.
Red Sox in Report:
Manny Alexander
Mike Spinelli
Paxton Crawford
Jeremy Giambi
Josias Manzanillo
Roger Clemens (post-Boston)
Mo Vaughan
Chris Donnels
Mike Lansing
Kent Mercker
Mike Stanton
Eric Gagne
Brendon Donnelly
Steve Woodard
Yankees in report:
Giambi
Sheffield
Clemens
Pettitte
Knoblauch
Rondell White
Grimsley
David Justice
Glenallen Hill
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Todd Williams
Mike Stanton
Kevin Brown
Dan Naulty
Josias Manzanillo
Hal Morris
Here is a section on Gagne
(Good Luck to the Brewers..)
This was in November of 06, Im assuming that his first half performance with the Rangers, as well as the fragility of Okajima brought on the trade at the dealine in 07, although it still sort of surprises me that they would go forward with it, unless the scouting of thje first half of 07 over rode this one email..
It could have been any team that was implicated, as it was, the primary two informants that would talk happened to be associated with NY teams, so its natural they took the brunt of the hit. If I know anything about drug dealers its that for every two that you detect there are a whole pile that you dont...If law enforcemnet had busted someone from St. Louis, or Seattle, or Miami, or Baltimore, or Boston instead the list may have looked completely different..
The list which was looked forward to is a relatively minor part of the whole thing, I think the point Mitchell was making is how pervasive PEDs are , and some were 'unlucky ' enough to get caught as examples to that end.. I would be willing to guess thatthere were hordes more who are breathing a huge sigh of relief this morning that their names were not included because their sources were from somewhere outside the scope of the investigatiion
I cant believe that some of these guys signed their names on checks....or like Gagne had it mailed directly to them at Dodger Stadium
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hiway29
I stand corrected about no Sox, though I admit I've never heard of alot of those guys, and others had a 'cup of coffee' with them.
The list may be minor, compared to the scope of the thing, but those players can never show their face in a game again, without chanting and whatnot, going on. That's while they're playing with guys just as guilty, who weren't in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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mstar1
Yes there will be chants and maybe there should be, I have hard time feeling sorry for anyone who makes tens of millions of dollars, who doesnt face any type of prosecution, who had an opportunity to answer for themselves and turned it down, and now feels bad because their name has been sullied..
Life is full of injustice, nobody is going to burn anyone in an oven or lock them in prison indefinitely without a trial, the worse that will happen is someone wont get a small bronze plaque in a little building in upstate NY and will have to live on the meager savings that they earned while defiling the game
Boo Hoo
The response so far reminds me of the Canseco book, when several were "outraged", yet no lawsuits resulted...
If someone is innocent, sue Mitchell for libel
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hiway29
I didn't say I felt sorry for, or was excusing those named.
I said it was the tip of the iceberg, and those select players are taking the bullet for all the rest.
At least you're putting baseball in it's proper perspective. It's guys getting rich for hitting a ball with a stick, and is ultimately meaningless. No one is going to the ovens, as you say.
World Series wins, home run records, etc, are just candy to keep us entertained while we try to gut it out through life.
You're right. Life isn't fair. If you can get away with something , while the guy next to you gets nabbed, it's all good.
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Tom Strange
If the MLBPA doesn't allow blood testing this is all for nought...
The way I figure it is that they got about 90 names from two clubhouse guys... what if they got ten clubhouse guys to talk? ...I'm betting we'd have close to a thousand names from over the years... I know there's gonna be overlapping, but so many from back in the 90's were saying 20 to 30 percent was where they'd put the usage at...
re: Gagne, Makes that trade look even better, from a Rangers standpoint.
Would the Astros have been able to make a better trade for Miguel Tejada if they'd waited just one more day?
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Rocky
If Fehr has his way, this WILL be all for naught.
That's more or less what I expected.
Hiway... it won't be nearly as bad for the named players as you suspect...
One day of weeping and gnashing of teeth and a life time of sweeping (under rugs).
And I don't know what Selig's going to be able to do... that could have simply been first day bluster... the union's going to go to bat for any of them that face any repercussions from the league... and that alone WILL obscure the issues.
BUT... IF they do blood testing, then we can say they will have made progress.
The most significant thing that needed (still needs) to get addressed is the cultural impact on youth wanting to develop themselves into professional athletes. THAT youths feel they can and should do steroids has got to change.
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mstar1
Interesting,
I wondered if the O's dumped him when they did, (the day before the report) knowing there was alikelihood he would be named..
I also wonder if teams can void contracts if a player was named. I sort of doubt it as the players association is too powerful.
That wasnt my pointIm not excusing the players who werent caught, and I wouldnt call being caught for cheating, while some werent, an injustice. They cheated, they got caught
They all deserve to be named, but unless this thing goes on for years and years it would never happen.
They still get all the spoils with little or no penalties.
Individual players arent even really the point, the point is to clean up the game and work a way to end it.
I dont know about that. IMO it would be the worst thing that he could do. The exposure has happened, granted he is in a delicate postion but his job is also to protect the nonsteroid enhanced players from playing under an unfair disadvantage. If he doesnt act for the good of those players who are the future of the MLBPA he will look really bad
btw I have Game 5 of the ALCS on, Sox are down 3-1 in the series to Cleveland but up 4-1 in the 7th, Beckett is looking good! My money is that the Sox will come back
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Rocky
I hope you're right on that.
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mstar1
I just found this which I thought was an interesting insight:
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/
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Rocky
I like those ideas. Yet, I don't think background checks on "clubbies" will put a stop to anything.
Tracking packages, however, could be helpful... but I'm thinking that guys with lots of spending money and mischief on their minds can find plenty of ways around that too... can you say "Mailboxes, Etc."?
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mstar1
There will always be a way around it if someone is desperate enough.The least they can do is make it difficult (no more packages mailed directly to the ballpark is a good start!) and let them know that no one is going to turn a blind eye anymore and that it will no longer be tolerated.
If the chances of getting caught increase. threat of expulsion is real, and the difficulty in acquiring them covertly increases, few I would guess would be willing to risk their high paying careers
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Rocky
And, especially for the sake of teenagers now and in the decades to come... make major examples of the cost of using... in every way that cost can be portrayed.
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mstar1
Id have no problem with a lifetime ban
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excathedra
hi mstar
i heard something on the radio regarding Pettitte that i wanted to ask you about
supposedly during off season he was trying to get his elbow to heal faster or something ? thus.....
what do you think ?
side note: clemens must be lying
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Rocky
I don't know anything about Petitte (other than the Dbacks beat him in the 2001 WS) and I don't know what Clemens is saying... but I'd bet Clemens is lying, no matter what he's saying. I've felt for a long time that he's got a cheaters' mentality. :blink:
And the Dbacks picked up Dan Haren today! An excellent move, IMO.
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Tom Strange
I'll take that... here's what the report says on page 176 myseestorex:
This is from the same guy that's implicating Clemons...
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excathedra
so tom what are you saying ? honest question
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Rocky
Yeah... Tom, what ARE you saying?
Yes, Petitte was trying to speed up the elbow healing... but what about Clemons?
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Tom Strange
clemons AND pettitte both are implicated as using performance enhancing drugs. both of them.
...and jose canseco is outraged that Arod is not on the list as well.
McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions.
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