amazing that Wells is still at it , what is he about 44? Glad to hear that he pitched well, he can add a lot to a team if he can stay out of bar fights, and abstain from pixxing off the commissioner, both of which he seemed to do with regularity when he was in Boston...
As far as TB, Toronto, Baltimore-----Y' know it wasnt that long ago that the Red Sox were in the same fix. It was the new owners who turned things around by not only having good baseball minds, but also a very keen business sense that made them what they are today after about a million years of going nowhere.
The RedSox had some good players, the samllest stadium in the majors, history, and were perpetual also rans. They did have a loyal fan base which was lsitened to and expanded, but it was the very sharp group of owners who made it happen. They can at times be as interesting to watch as the game on the field
I dunno --after watching how these guys operate I am of the opinion that it could be done anywhere, not saying it will but it could be if the owners were sharp and concerned enough to do it
I agree that the Sox owners know what they're doing-and are willing to spend Yankee type dollars to do it.
My point was that the D Rays will never be able to spend the same money the Yankees and Sox do. Granted all the money in the world won't compensate for bad moves. The Yankees of the 80's proved that. But the big money , small market gap is insanely wide. And yes, there are small market teams like the Twins, who have done well, with good baseball people, so I agree that it CAN be done. But take a team like Kansas City. If they had been able to keep their home grown plyers, Carlos DelGado, and Johnny Damon for starters,they'd be a real power instead of a joke. The reality is that good players go for the money as soon as they can, and the teams that can afford them are few.
It's an old argument. I'm not saying anything new. I just don't know how to change it.
I agree that the Sox owners know what they're doing-and are willing to spend Yankee type dollars to do it.
My point was that the D Rays will never be able to spend the same money the Yankees and Sox do. Granted all the money in the world won't compensate for bad moves. The Yankees of the 80's proved that. But the big money , small market gap is insanely wide. And yes, there are small market teams like the Twins, who have done well, with good baseball people, so I agree that it CAN be done. But take a team like Kansas City. If they had been able to keep their home grown plyers, Carlos DelGado, and Johnny Damon for starters,they'd be a real power instead of a joke. The reality is that good players go for the money as soon as they can, and the teams that can afford them are few.
It's an old argument. I'm not saying anything new. I just don't know how to change it.
Well... I wouldn't consider Arizona (especially the Phoenix area) necessarily a "small" market, since we've become the 5th largest metro population in the US... BUT, ticket prices at Chase Field are insanely high, at least when compared to just a couple of years ago. In 1998, I had season tickets, two seats for $6.50/seat/game. The same seats now cost $15 each/game. And those seats were too high in the upper deck. I generally prefer the front row of the upper deck... and these days, those seats are going for $25 for anywhere between first and third bases.
The Dbacks obviously mortgaged the franchise to win the WS in 2001, but these days have one of the smaller payrolls in MLB. I doubt they'll win it all this year, but still think they have a real good shot at making the playoffs.
So, I guess my point is.... if a team can charge obscene prices and get away with it, then maybe they can compete against the big market teams.
The Dbacks also play in a division of small salaried teams. Well, the Dodgers payroll is pretty high, but there isn't anyone on that team that will 'scare' you. Same with the Padres, Giants, and Rockies.The Dodgers play like a small market team-whatever that means.
I know the Dbacks can play the Yankees and Bosox well in any given series. If they were in the same division over the course of a season, I wonder how they'd do. I'm not saying they wouldn't hold up, just that I don't know.
The Dbacks also play in a division of small salaried teams. Well, the Dodgers payroll is pretty high, but there isn't anyone on that team that will 'scare' you. Same with the Padres, Giants, and Rockies.The Dodgers play like a small market team-whatever that means.
I know the Dbacks can play the Yankees and Bosox well in any given series. If they were in the same division over the course of a season, I wonder how they'd do. I'm not saying they wouldn't hold up, just that I don't know.
Good insight. I'd venture to guess we'd see a much different experience if the Dbacks were in the same division as the BoSox or Yankers. As both of those teams are far more offensive (in a good way ;) ), I'd expect the disparity between runs given up and runs scored would be even more pronounced than it is now for the snakes.
How that would stack up in the Win column is anyone's guess.
When was the last time you saw a pitcher bat 8th in the opening line-up instead of 9th? Braden Looper for the Cards is doing it today.
LaRussa has been doing this off and on for a few years... Obviously, it seems bizarre to most. Depending on the pitcher (like Micah Owings) it could become a big deal in any given game.
Being in a National League city, I see the patterns associated with the traditional NL lineup with a catcher (or the defense's weakest hitter) in the 8 spot and the pitcher 9th. Since most pitchers can't hit worth a damn, whoever bats 8th, depending on the score, potential baserunners and how late in the game, often doesn't get any good pitches. Pitched around and now on 1rst base, especially if there are two outs, the pitcher usually makes an out and that's the end of the threat.
At minimum, with LaRussa's little lineup quirk, it takes that option off the table and forces the other team to think more.
I've just never noticed it before , tells you how much I keep up with baseball these days LOL
Nah... nobody really talks about it unless they're broadcasting a Cards game... it's understandable that you would find it intriguing (and surprising). :)
It's always good to hear from fans of various teams. The Cleveland Indians are a grand old franchise, and are certainly still in contention for a playoff spot.By all means, sound off !
Idbe curious if its the Yankees, in some spheres they are the universal team to dislike, of course I really have no way of knowing.
I am outside of Cleveland today and was pleasantly surprised last night when I went into the sports bar in the middle of Ohio, to see the TVs not tuned to the Indians or Tigers but a Boston feed of the Red Sox. In Ohio? Absolutely nothing on the Indians or Tigers.....Odd... but good...
I felt right at home.
Even 700 miles from home...The owners are definitely good at marketing -
Were the Indians on at the time, and they just weren't showing it ? If so, I see nothing 'good' about it. If I'm in Cleveland I expect to see Indians games, not Sox, Yankees, or whoever unless the local team isn't on at the time.
Of course it's the Yankees. And yes, they are kind of a universal team to dislike. But you have to have experience as a true Indians fan to acquire the flavor of the dislike. Though I think my breeding as such a fan in the 1950s and early 1960s was during a special time for this rivalry.
there is actually a mlb team I dislike more than the Yankees, but that has more to do with the team that for several years supplanted the Dodgers as my second favorite. The Dodgers made it back to my second team when we were Short changed where I was living at the time.
Oh, I never lived in Cleveland, but in Shelby in northern Ohio.
Well, MY 2cents worth isn't worth much (since I always, in a cash transaction at retail establishments, tell the cashier to "keep the pennies"), but I too dislike the Yankers. Though in the 1960s, in upstate NY, I was somewhat of a NYY fan. Those were glorious years, with Mantle, Maris, Whitey Ford and others... I lived then in the city where the Baltimore Orioles farmed on the AAA level (Rochester)... and transitioned to root for the O's. With Boog, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Mark Belanger, Mike Cuellar and others....
But now, from the East, I like the BoSox and Cubs, but the home team is my team... you know which team that is by now, I hope.
Tonight, the Dbacks returned last night's favor for the Padres... stomping them 9-1 (last night it was 10-2 Pads). Rubber game on Weds... the two teams are now tied for the division lead.
I lived then in the city where the Baltimore Orioles farmed on the AAA level (Rochester)... and transitioned to root for the O's. With Boog, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Mark Belanger, Mike Cuellar and others....
While I was never a real fan of the O's, I did spend a couple years going to a few of their games after we were Short changed in Washington. Driving all the way up to memorial stadium from the Virginia suburbs of DC was a surprising breeze given I had to drive up through a chunk of Baltimore. The one way streets and the amazingly synchronized lights had to be a work of genius. I guess my favorite O was one who doesn't eserve to be in "others"...Brooks.
While I was never a real fan of the O's, I did spend a couple years going to a few of their games after we were Short changed in Washington. Driving all the way up to memorial stadium from the Virginia suburbs of DC was a surprising breeze given I had to drive up through a chunk of Baltimore. The one way streets and the amazingly synchronized lights had to be a work of genius. I guess my favorite O was one who doesn't eserve to be in "others"...Brooks.
Yes, Brooks Robinson... the human vacuum cleaner. He was the best!
What's funny to me is that the Red Sox are now everything that people hate the Yankees for. Huge salaries, win at all costs. The East is the Yankees, Sox, and a bunch of also rans. The Sox still have that 'lovable' image, which is somehow lost on me. Mstar will tell me that it's the genuis of the Sox owners, vs the evil empire.
The reason I thought the Indians fans hated the Reds, when I lived in Columbus, I found people were either Reds or Indians fans, mostly Reds. The stuff I heard Reds fans say about the Indians, like they shouldn't have a right to exist.
What's funny to me is that the Red Sox are now everything that people hate the Yankees for
everything?
I suppose you would have to ask people why exactly they hate the Yankees ( although the word used was 'dislike') if you are going to draw a parallel.
Is spending money the main reason people dislike the Yankees? Partly , but I dont think that it is the only reason, or maybe even the top reason.
If money is the sole reason then the Red Sox would be second in the race but somehow they are popular nationally and actually manage to make following baseball fun and enjoyable to a huge amount of people.
I suspect that there actually may be more to the reason that people dislike the Yankees than their financials
well you tell me mstar. Is it that the players are unlikeable? When the champion ship team Of Jeter, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius were together, you couldn't find a better mix of 'good guys'. I understand Arod dislike-tho your team almost had him and wanted him.
Is it Steinbrenner? Could be. Though for all his faults he's delivered the best team he knew how ( which wasn't always much). Isn't that what fans want in owners? Or are Boson's owners big lovable guys. Actually you've answered that, and I guess they are.
Is it because they've won so often? That's probably the biggest reason. Everyone wants to shoot down a winner. Root for the underdog and all that. I happen to have loved the KC Royals in the 80's and root for them every year to be able to compete again.
Is it because of New York ? Maybe, though Boston has a history of being accused of being racist in all their sports teams. I'm not saying I agree with that-it's just what people say.
I know I'm one of the few Yankee fans here, and there are many Sox faithful. So be it. I loved the Yankees as a kid-the only time being a fan really matters. I admit I don't wax as elequent about them, but frankly I don't think anyone wants to hear it.
well you tell me mstar. Is it that the players are unlikeable? When the champion ship team Of Jeter, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius were together, you couldn't find a better mix of 'good guys'. I understand Arod dislike-tho your team almost had him and wanted him.
Is it Steinbrenner? Could be. Though for all his faults he's delivered the best team he knew how ( which wasn't always much). Isn't that what fans want in owners? Or are Boson's owners big lovable guys. Actually you've answered that, and I guess they are.
Is it because they've won so often? That's probably the biggest reason. Everyone wants to shoot down a winner. Root for the underdog and all that. I happen to have loved the KC Royals in the 80's and root for them every year to be able to compete again.
Is it because of New York ? Maybe, though Boston has a history of being accused of being racist in all their sports teams. I'm not saying I agree with that-it's just what people say.
I know I'm one of the few Yankee fans here, and there are many Sox faithful. So be it. I loved the Yankees as a kid-the only time being a fan really matters. I admit I don't wax as elequent about them, but frankly I don't think anyone wants to hear it.
For me, it's Steinbrenner.... but he's hardly the only egomaniac to own/run an MLB franchise. Jerry Colangelo was up there with him, until an expanded group of investors/partners pushed him out of the picture in Dback's land.
btw,... Though the Padres got some pretty good licks in on the Dbacks last week and this, the Dbacks nailed the Padres both last night (against the highly touted Chris Young) and tonight against NL Cy Young frontrunner Jake Peavy. 8 earned runs against Peavy tonight. Though it was only by 3 runs, it was still a convincing win.... So, with ALL of their regular season games together now in the record books, the Dbacks own a one game lead in the NL West...
When the Dbacks lose, boy do they look bad. But when they win like these last two games, they look like they could beat anybody. Now, bring on the StL Cards with Pujols and SLUGGER Rick Ankiel (Ankiel hit his 7th HR tonight)...
Is it because they've won so often? That's probably the biggest reason. Everyone wants to shoot down a winner. Root for the underdog and all that. I happen to have loved the KC Royals in the 80's and root for them every year to be able to compete again.
I know I'm one of the few Yankee fans here, and there are many Sox faithful. So be it. I loved the Yankees as a kid-the only time being a fan really matters. I admit I don't wax as elequent about them, but frankly I don't think anyone wants to hear it.
That's probably much of it. back in the 50s of course, the Yankees were winning more than they have done in recent years. And Old Municipal stadium in Cleveland would often sell out to 86 thousand plus for Yankee series.
And how true that is about being a kid. That is when lifelong loyalties are born. My biggest moment was when Mudcat Grant of the Indians gave me a personal pose for a picture on camera day in Washington in the early 60s.
hey Rocky...one year, it might have been 1975, I bought an Allegheny Airlines Liberty fare for 129 bucks, on which I could fly to ad many destinations in one week as long as I didnt repeat. From Indianapolis, I flew to DC to visit family. from there I flew to Boston just to watch the Indians play the Sox at Fenway. I flew back to DC via Baltimore, then a few days later back to Indy.
It was after the Sox had clinched that year. It was a cool drizzly day but they played. I dont even rremember who won.
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I missed the LLWS. The boy had baseball practice 4-7. Playing in a USSSA tournament this coming weekend. The new season has just started. Can ya'll believe we are in September of the ML baseball s
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Dont scare me like that Bolsh--the way you posted I wasnt sure if it was a done deal--I had to go check....Im on the fence whether to go for Halliday or not---I'd love to have him but I'd hate to give
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mstar1
LOL on the Grady comment...
amazing that Wells is still at it , what is he about 44? Glad to hear that he pitched well, he can add a lot to a team if he can stay out of bar fights, and abstain from pixxing off the commissioner, both of which he seemed to do with regularity when he was in Boston...
As far as TB, Toronto, Baltimore-----Y' know it wasnt that long ago that the Red Sox were in the same fix. It was the new owners who turned things around by not only having good baseball minds, but also a very keen business sense that made them what they are today after about a million years of going nowhere.
The RedSox had some good players, the samllest stadium in the majors, history, and were perpetual also rans. They did have a loyal fan base which was lsitened to and expanded, but it was the very sharp group of owners who made it happen. They can at times be as interesting to watch as the game on the field
I dunno --after watching how these guys operate I am of the opinion that it could be done anywhere, not saying it will but it could be if the owners were sharp and concerned enough to do it
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hiway29
I agree that the Sox owners know what they're doing-and are willing to spend Yankee type dollars to do it.
My point was that the D Rays will never be able to spend the same money the Yankees and Sox do. Granted all the money in the world won't compensate for bad moves. The Yankees of the 80's proved that. But the big money , small market gap is insanely wide. And yes, there are small market teams like the Twins, who have done well, with good baseball people, so I agree that it CAN be done. But take a team like Kansas City. If they had been able to keep their home grown plyers, Carlos DelGado, and Johnny Damon for starters,they'd be a real power instead of a joke. The reality is that good players go for the money as soon as they can, and the teams that can afford them are few.
It's an old argument. I'm not saying anything new. I just don't know how to change it.
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Rocky
Well... I wouldn't consider Arizona (especially the Phoenix area) necessarily a "small" market, since we've become the 5th largest metro population in the US... BUT, ticket prices at Chase Field are insanely high, at least when compared to just a couple of years ago. In 1998, I had season tickets, two seats for $6.50/seat/game. The same seats now cost $15 each/game. And those seats were too high in the upper deck. I generally prefer the front row of the upper deck... and these days, those seats are going for $25 for anywhere between first and third bases.
The Dbacks obviously mortgaged the franchise to win the WS in 2001, but these days have one of the smaller payrolls in MLB. I doubt they'll win it all this year, but still think they have a real good shot at making the playoffs.
So, I guess my point is.... if a team can charge obscene prices and get away with it, then maybe they can compete against the big market teams.
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hiway29
The Dbacks also play in a division of small salaried teams. Well, the Dodgers payroll is pretty high, but there isn't anyone on that team that will 'scare' you. Same with the Padres, Giants, and Rockies.The Dodgers play like a small market team-whatever that means.
I know the Dbacks can play the Yankees and Bosox well in any given series. If they were in the same division over the course of a season, I wonder how they'd do. I'm not saying they wouldn't hold up, just that I don't know.
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Rocky
Good insight. I'd venture to guess we'd see a much different experience if the Dbacks were in the same division as the BoSox or Yankers. As both of those teams are far more offensive (in a good way ;) ), I'd expect the disparity between runs given up and runs scored would be even more pronounced than it is now for the snakes.
How that would stack up in the Win column is anyone's guess.
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bulwinkl
When was the last time you saw a pitcher bat 8th in the opening line-up instead of 9th? Braden Looper for the Cards is doing it today.
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Rocky
LaRussa has been doing this off and on for a few years... Obviously, it seems bizarre to most. Depending on the pitcher (like Micah Owings) it could become a big deal in any given game.
Being in a National League city, I see the patterns associated with the traditional NL lineup with a catcher (or the defense's weakest hitter) in the 8 spot and the pitcher 9th. Since most pitchers can't hit worth a damn, whoever bats 8th, depending on the score, potential baserunners and how late in the game, often doesn't get any good pitches. Pitched around and now on 1rst base, especially if there are two outs, the pitcher usually makes an out and that's the end of the threat.
At minimum, with LaRussa's little lineup quirk, it takes that option off the table and forces the other team to think more.
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bulwinkl
I've just never noticed it before , tells you how much I keep up with baseball these days LOL
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Rocky
Nah... nobody really talks about it unless they're broadcasting a Cards game... it's understandable that you would find it intriguing (and surprising). :)
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Lifted Up
I suppose it is past time for this Cleveland Indians fan to make some noise. We'll probably never hear much from Linda Z.
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hiway29
It's always good to hear from fans of various teams. The Cleveland Indians are a grand old franchise, and are certainly still in contention for a playoff spot.By all means, sound off !
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Lifted Up
As a loyal Indians fan, for over 50 years, there is a team I have always disliked. I wonder if anyone can guess which team that is?
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hiway29
Having lived in Columbus, Ohio for 3 years, I'd say if it's not the Cincinatti Reds, I don't know who, even though they rarely play each other.
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mstar1
Idbe curious if its the Yankees, in some spheres they are the universal team to dislike, of course I really have no way of knowing.
I am outside of Cleveland today and was pleasantly surprised last night when I went into the sports bar in the middle of Ohio, to see the TVs not tuned to the Indians or Tigers but a Boston feed of the Red Sox. In Ohio? Absolutely nothing on the Indians or Tigers.....Odd... but good...
I felt right at home.
Even 700 miles from home...The owners are definitely good at marketing -
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hiway29
Were the Indians on at the time, and they just weren't showing it ? If so, I see nothing 'good' about it. If I'm in Cleveland I expect to see Indians games, not Sox, Yankees, or whoever unless the local team isn't on at the time.
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Lifted Up
Of course it's the Yankees. And yes, they are kind of a universal team to dislike. But you have to have experience as a true Indians fan to acquire the flavor of the dislike. Though I think my breeding as such a fan in the 1950s and early 1960s was during a special time for this rivalry.
there is actually a mlb team I dislike more than the Yankees, but that has more to do with the team that for several years supplanted the Dodgers as my second favorite. The Dodgers made it back to my second team when we were Short changed where I was living at the time.
Oh, I never lived in Cleveland, but in Shelby in northern Ohio.
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Rocky
Well, MY 2cents worth isn't worth much (since I always, in a cash transaction at retail establishments, tell the cashier to "keep the pennies"), but I too dislike the Yankers. Though in the 1960s, in upstate NY, I was somewhat of a NYY fan. Those were glorious years, with Mantle, Maris, Whitey Ford and others... I lived then in the city where the Baltimore Orioles farmed on the AAA level (Rochester)... and transitioned to root for the O's. With Boog, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Mark Belanger, Mike Cuellar and others....
But now, from the East, I like the BoSox and Cubs, but the home team is my team... you know which team that is by now, I hope.
Tonight, the Dbacks returned last night's favor for the Padres... stomping them 9-1 (last night it was 10-2 Pads). Rubber game on Weds... the two teams are now tied for the division lead.
We need some baseball related emoticons!
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Lifted Up
While I was never a real fan of the O's, I did spend a couple years going to a few of their games after we were Short changed in Washington. Driving all the way up to memorial stadium from the Virginia suburbs of DC was a surprising breeze given I had to drive up through a chunk of Baltimore. The one way streets and the amazingly synchronized lights had to be a work of genius. I guess my favorite O was one who doesn't eserve to be in "others"...Brooks.
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Rocky
Yes, Brooks Robinson... the human vacuum cleaner. He was the best!
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hiway29
gee what a surprise -everyone hates the Yankees.
What's funny to me is that the Red Sox are now everything that people hate the Yankees for. Huge salaries, win at all costs. The East is the Yankees, Sox, and a bunch of also rans. The Sox still have that 'lovable' image, which is somehow lost on me. Mstar will tell me that it's the genuis of the Sox owners, vs the evil empire.
The reason I thought the Indians fans hated the Reds, when I lived in Columbus, I found people were either Reds or Indians fans, mostly Reds. The stuff I heard Reds fans say about the Indians, like they shouldn't have a right to exist.
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mstar1
everything?
I suppose you would have to ask people why exactly they hate the Yankees ( although the word used was 'dislike') if you are going to draw a parallel.
Is spending money the main reason people dislike the Yankees? Partly , but I dont think that it is the only reason, or maybe even the top reason.
If money is the sole reason then the Red Sox would be second in the race but somehow they are popular nationally and actually manage to make following baseball fun and enjoyable to a huge amount of people.
I suspect that there actually may be more to the reason that people dislike the Yankees than their financials
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hiway29
well you tell me mstar. Is it that the players are unlikeable? When the champion ship team Of Jeter, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius were together, you couldn't find a better mix of 'good guys'. I understand Arod dislike-tho your team almost had him and wanted him.
Is it Steinbrenner? Could be. Though for all his faults he's delivered the best team he knew how ( which wasn't always much). Isn't that what fans want in owners? Or are Boson's owners big lovable guys. Actually you've answered that, and I guess they are.
Is it because they've won so often? That's probably the biggest reason. Everyone wants to shoot down a winner. Root for the underdog and all that. I happen to have loved the KC Royals in the 80's and root for them every year to be able to compete again.
Is it because of New York ? Maybe, though Boston has a history of being accused of being racist in all their sports teams. I'm not saying I agree with that-it's just what people say.
I know I'm one of the few Yankee fans here, and there are many Sox faithful. So be it. I loved the Yankees as a kid-the only time being a fan really matters. I admit I don't wax as elequent about them, but frankly I don't think anyone wants to hear it.
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Rocky
For me, it's Steinbrenner.... but he's hardly the only egomaniac to own/run an MLB franchise. Jerry Colangelo was up there with him, until an expanded group of investors/partners pushed him out of the picture in Dback's land.
btw,... Though the Padres got some pretty good licks in on the Dbacks last week and this, the Dbacks nailed the Padres both last night (against the highly touted Chris Young) and tonight against NL Cy Young frontrunner Jake Peavy. 8 earned runs against Peavy tonight. Though it was only by 3 runs, it was still a convincing win.... So, with ALL of their regular season games together now in the record books, the Dbacks own a one game lead in the NL West...
When the Dbacks lose, boy do they look bad. But when they win like these last two games, they look like they could beat anybody. Now, bring on the StL Cards with Pujols and SLUGGER Rick Ankiel (Ankiel hit his 7th HR tonight)...
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Lifted Up
That's probably much of it. back in the 50s of course, the Yankees were winning more than they have done in recent years. And Old Municipal stadium in Cleveland would often sell out to 86 thousand plus for Yankee series.
And how true that is about being a kid. That is when lifelong loyalties are born. My biggest moment was when Mudcat Grant of the Indians gave me a personal pose for a picture on camera day in Washington in the early 60s.
hey Rocky...one year, it might have been 1975, I bought an Allegheny Airlines Liberty fare for 129 bucks, on which I could fly to ad many destinations in one week as long as I didnt repeat. From Indianapolis, I flew to DC to visit family. from there I flew to Boston just to watch the Indians play the Sox at Fenway. I flew back to DC via Baltimore, then a few days later back to Indy.
It was after the Sox had clinched that year. It was a cool drizzly day but they played. I dont even rremember who won.
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