OK, connection wasn’t a very good way to describe or convey what I intended.
The site is from the sociology dept. of the university, studying the impact of religion in society. I found the cult controversy interesting, keep in mind the study concerned numerous organizations that the professor has determined to call new religious movements because of the following:
quote:Parting of ways can produce a considerable degree of acrimony, but most people soon get over their unhappiness and get on with their lives. But there are always a few who cope with their loss by engaging in an ongoing battle with individuals or organizations which with they were formerly affiliated.
1. Much of the mischief of the popular meaning of the word "cult" results from the organized efforts of disgruntled former members. These anti-cultists are joined by parents who blame "cults" for the decisions of their (usually) adult children to join groups that did not meet with their approval.
This reminded me of us, the GS community. Now hold on a minute before any tail feathers get ruffled! Made me think that we do all fit into one or the other of these categories and that we are not so unique in this world.
Yeppers! I read that section. As a matter of fact, this site is one of my main sources that I used as a basis for all of my 'anti-mind control' tirades.
What, am I some kind of freak of nature? ( Watch it smart-@$$’s!) A social outcast unfit to live in the mainstream? These and other question come up while thinking about previous affiliation with what became a despicable group and the inability to just put it behind and leave things like this site alone. But, many times the easy answer doesn’t set well, that being the “we were brainwashed”! Seems to me that taking the easy answers is associated with the previous pickle I was in.
After a look at this site, perhaps in the greater scheme of things I am just a part of society that always has been. That and when claims were made such as the great impact and change “one man’s stand on the Word made”, the changes I have witnessed in my life time can be explained by this site also. Movements has a whole, not the individuals or the individual groups bring about some change, evolution if you will; into society as a whole.
OK, I am weird but did find some better answers or explanations as to the why’s and wherefore’s of my life :D-->
Self actualization is a term used to describe a healthy adult.
It defines itself and is the top level of mental health, the fact is a very small percent of humans reach this level of understanding in life .
very few...
The word brainwash is the subsitute for the word Influence, and again alllows the thinker to avoid responsibility for "self" .
To actualy be a "self" is independent and our culture fosters interdependence and co-dependence out of fear of losing relationships. Which is a genuine possibility but not nearly as BAD as an outcome as many think or fear . it is the only way we can change our influences and grow more into self!!!
As a christian this model of health is completely on bibical rightness if used and applied as a science !!!!
To find a common base of mankind to relate to we need to find actual self which incorporates the idea of influences and genuine choices for the greater good of self .
The rest of your life is a trick and will end up in disappointment and confused wonder of what happened there.
Indeed some influences are so masked we may not understand where that thought process comes from until we study and educate and find a more correct influence to explain. For me it has been Jesus Christ and His revelationto the world at large.
for others with self actualization peace may be generated by some
different inspiration.
The point is self is society and society and culture mix the "selfs" within . Many do not reach understanding or knowledge self actualization due to negative infulences and refusal to address responsibility to make the changes needed to find enlightenment . That is why the mental health field is massive and will never end in its influences as solutions!
exactly! Why are the very practices of some groups considered acceptable and mainstream and others mind controlling cults? Is it because the acceptable have been around a certain number of years? Then add into the mix that the anti-cults practice the same things, if not worse than the cults they are trying to save people from.
Shellon, read and follow some of the links. Brainwashing is just another *snow-job*, never scientifically proven. Sold a bag of worms by a cult, don’t buy into another bag of the same quality stuff when leaving the first bag behind.
Does this mean we weren’t wrongly influenced and placed into situations that we caved into the crap of just following along for the greater *good* or the *group*? Of course we were, but it wasn’t by magicians capable of discovering the hidden secrets of mind-bending manipulation that eluded the commies and the CIA!
(((((((Digi)))))) your mantre has made your husband a happy man!!!!! Keep up the obey,obey obey!!!!!!!!
Last night after reading thru some of these "Brain Washed" threads, and listening to Aaron Neville at the same time, Hubby and I got into a very civil debate in regards to what we learned in TWI.
There are so many subjects taught to us by TWI in which we are not absolutely positive what we were taught was correct.
There are still theories we were taught by TWI that are lounging in our brains . We sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with each other on these subjects. Sometimes we just leave it alone.
What we learned or were brain washed with in the Advance Class often comes under the catagory of these questionable theories. Many times over the years since we left TWI we have found ourselves questioning what we learned in that class. That means both of us questioning not just one or the other.
Not debating any longer TWIs view, but where our thinking is -vs- the Word or what Jesus Christ did for us or what God wants of us.
We believe we were definately convinced of certain issues that we were once taught, now we know were wrong. We fell into what we once believed to easily.
Were we Brain Washed? Yes, No and Maybe
I know in our hearts, we were just wanting to love God and do the right thing.
This we still have in our hearts, doing the right thing is available without being brain washed.
exactly! Why are the very practices of some groups considered acceptable and mainstream and others mind controlling cults? Is it because the acceptable have been around a certain number of years? Then add into the mix that the anti-cults practice the same things, if not worse than the cults they are trying to save people from.
Yea -- they've been around long enough to claim "domain" territory, and still do all the things they accuse others of doing.
I was raised Catholic, and IMHO -- they are the biggest cult there is (maybe next to Muslims). Sooo much wrong teaching, doctrine, practice, etc. -- and they violate human beings more than any cult that I have ever seen.
And to top it off -- the Evangelical crowd ignores the Catholics, and comes after you and I, cause we don't believe in the deity of Christ.
When are those &*^%$$^&***(@#$%&& folks going to see that THEY ARE THE ONES who are following a false doctrine that was ramrodded thru the Council of Nicea back in 325??
All knowledge is "indoctrination" -- so where is the line to be drawn as far a "cult mentality" goes?? -->
If thou wilt give me leave, I desire to go up to Jerusalem, and see the faithful saints who are there, especially Mary the mother, whom they report to be an object of admiration and of affection to all. For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who bore the true God from her own womb, provided he is a friend of our faith and religion? And in like manner the venerable James, who is surnamed Just, whom they relate to be very like Christ Jesus in appearance, in life, and in method of conduct, as if he were a twin-brother of the same womb. They say that, if I see him, I see also Jesus Himself, as to all the features and aspect of His body. Moreover, the other saints, both male and female. Alas! why do I delay? Why am I kept back? Kind teacher, bid me hasten [to fulfil my wish], and fare thou well. Amen.
Ignatius of Antioch died sometime between 98 and 117 AD
quote:Dialogue of Justin Chapter LXI-Wisdom is Begotten of the Father, as Fire from Fire.
"I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: `If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me.
There are others identified as "Church Fathers" whom I could quote. But, my purpose is not to convince you of the Trinity, but, rather simply to let you know that there was a lot of "triune" thought out there prior to Nicea, contrary to what VPW taught.
Wierwille taught that Arian thought was the norm until Constantine converted and made Christianity legal in the Roman Empire -- where it got mixed up with Roman pagan religion. He was wrong, as I just showed you. (Provided the Calvin College "Christian Classics Ethereal Library" is not intentionally publishing forgeries). How many other places has VPW lied in his doctrine???
quote: One man's cult is another man's mainstream.
dmiller: I always felt about Baptists the way you feel about Catholics, so I appreciate your sentiments.
But, if you ask a devout humanist, anybody who believes in a god has his brains filled with jell-o.
How about if we live and let live.
Amen to that!! Btw -- thanks for the links to those other quotes you posted. I know that triune thought was in evidence way before Nicea. It just happened to come into fruition as "Official Doctrine" back in 325. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't around until then.
I know that triune thought was in evidence way before Nicea. It just happened to come into fruition as "Official Doctrine" back in 325. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't around until then.
I wasn't implying that you did...However, I clearly remember VPW doing so. This was part of his "pseudo-science" that sucked me right in because of my ignorance of documents, such as those.
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GarthP2000
And those connections would be ..... ?
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dmiller
Hiya Griz -- went to the site, got to the twi profile and read it. Is that the connection you mentioned
-->
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Shellon
miller, where did you see twi?
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vickles
I went to the profile, myself but didn't see anything that was new. It was almost like twi wrote it themself...Was I looking in the wrong place, griz?
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Grizzy
OK, connection wasn’t a very good way to describe or convey what I intended.
The site is from the sociology dept. of the university, studying the impact of religion in society. I found the cult controversy interesting, keep in mind the study concerned numerous organizations that the professor has determined to call new religious movements because of the following:
This reminded me of us, the GS community. Now hold on a minute before any tail feathers get ruffled! Made me think that we do all fit into one or the other of these categories and that we are not so unique in this world.
That is from here
How many times have we had discussions on this subject brainwashing
(Garth you are going to love this section)
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Shellon
Ok, Grizz, I'll go there a little bit, but what about when it really is a cult and brainwashing really does happen?
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WordWolf
Or when it's coersion, social stigmas and abuse of power, if shy of
fullblown brainwashing-is that ok, then?
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Digitalis
Alright Grizzy Bear!! btw I missed ya!!
Just when I thought I wasn't brain-washed anymore, somebody had to go and prove me wrong!!
Back to my sentences,
1. I will Obey
2. I will Obey
3. I will Obey
4. I will Obey
5. I will Obey
Cool only 495 more to go!!
Digi
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GarthP2000
Grizz Bahr, (good to see ya back, by the way)
Yeppers! I read that section. As a matter of fact, this site is one of my main sources that I used as a basis for all of my 'anti-mind control' tirades.
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mj412
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/cesnur/cowan.html
this link will tell you why the author of this study believes sites like Greasespot work .
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Grizzy
What, am I some kind of freak of nature? ( Watch it smart-@$$’s!) A social outcast unfit to live in the mainstream? These and other question come up while thinking about previous affiliation with what became a despicable group and the inability to just put it behind and leave things like this site alone. But, many times the easy answer doesn’t set well, that being the “we were brainwashed”! Seems to me that taking the easy answers is associated with the previous pickle I was in.
After a look at this site, perhaps in the greater scheme of things I am just a part of society that always has been. That and when claims were made such as the great impact and change “one man’s stand on the Word made”, the changes I have witnessed in my life time can be explained by this site also. Movements has a whole, not the individuals or the individual groups bring about some change, evolution if you will; into society as a whole.
OK, I am weird but did find some better answers or explanations as to the why’s and wherefore’s of my life
:D-->
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mj412
Self actualization is a term used to describe a healthy adult.
It defines itself and is the top level of mental health, the fact is a very small percent of humans reach this level of understanding in life .
very few...
The word brainwash is the subsitute for the word Influence, and again alllows the thinker to avoid responsibility for "self" .
To actualy be a "self" is independent and our culture fosters interdependence and co-dependence out of fear of losing relationships. Which is a genuine possibility but not nearly as BAD as an outcome as many think or fear . it is the only way we can change our influences and grow more into self!!!
As a christian this model of health is completely on bibical rightness if used and applied as a science !!!!
To find a common base of mankind to relate to we need to find actual self which incorporates the idea of influences and genuine choices for the greater good of self .
The rest of your life is a trick and will end up in disappointment and confused wonder of what happened there.
Indeed some influences are so masked we may not understand where that thought process comes from until we study and educate and find a more correct influence to explain. For me it has been Jesus Christ and His revelationto the world at large.
for others with self actualization peace may be generated by some
different inspiration.
The point is self is society and society and culture mix the "selfs" within . Many do not reach understanding or knowledge self actualization due to negative infulences and refusal to address responsibility to make the changes needed to find enlightenment . That is why the mental health field is massive and will never end in its influences as solutions!
whew !
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dmiller
Shellon -- I found twi by going to the alphabetical listing, and clicking on "W".
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dmiller
hmmmm -- meebe I will click on "C" for catholic, and see if they are considered a "cult" too!
;)-->
--------- (in the interest of "science" ya know) !!
:P--> 
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Grizzy
dmiller,
exactly! Why are the very practices of some groups considered acceptable and mainstream and others mind controlling cults? Is it because the acceptable have been around a certain number of years? Then add into the mix that the anti-cults practice the same things, if not worse than the cults they are trying to save people from.
Shellon, read and follow some of the links. Brainwashing is just another *snow-job*, never scientifically proven. Sold a bag of worms by a cult, don’t buy into another bag of the same quality stuff when leaving the first bag behind.
Does this mean we weren’t wrongly influenced and placed into situations that we caved into the crap of just following along for the greater *good* or the *group*? Of course we were, but it wasn’t by magicians capable of discovering the hidden secrets of mind-bending manipulation that eluded the commies and the CIA!
(((((((Digi)))))) your mantre has made your husband a happy man!!!!! Keep up the obey,obey obey!!!!!!!!
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Digitalis
Grizzy,
Last night after reading thru some of these "Brain Washed" threads, and listening to Aaron Neville at the same time, Hubby and I got into a very civil debate in regards to what we learned in TWI.
There are so many subjects taught to us by TWI in which we are not absolutely positive what we were taught was correct.
There are still theories we were taught by TWI that are lounging in our brains . We sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with each other on these subjects. Sometimes we just leave it alone.
What we learned or were brain washed with in the Advance Class often comes under the catagory of these questionable theories. Many times over the years since we left TWI we have found ourselves questioning what we learned in that class. That means both of us questioning not just one or the other.
Not debating any longer TWIs view, but where our thinking is -vs- the Word or what Jesus Christ did for us or what God wants of us.
We believe we were definately convinced of certain issues that we were once taught, now we know were wrong. We fell into what we once believed to easily.
Were we Brain Washed? Yes, No and Maybe
I know in our hearts, we were just wanting to love God and do the right thing.
This we still have in our hearts, doing the right thing is available without being brain washed.
Digi and Hubby
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dmiller
Yea -- they've been around long enough to claim "domain" territory, and still do all the things they accuse others of doing.
I was raised Catholic, and IMHO -- they are the biggest cult there is (maybe next to Muslims). Sooo much wrong teaching, doctrine, practice, etc. -- and they violate human beings more than any cult that I have ever seen.
And to top it off -- the Evangelical crowd ignores the Catholics, and comes after you and I, cause we don't believe in the deity of Christ.
When are those &*^%$$^&***(@#$%&& folks going to see that THEY ARE THE ONES who are following a false doctrine that was ramrodded thru the Council of Nicea back in 325??
All knowledge is "indoctrination" -- so where is the line to be drawn as far a "cult mentality" goes??
-->
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markomalley
One man's cult is another man's mainstream.
dmiller: I always felt about Baptists the way you feel about Catholics, so I appreciate your sentiments.
But, if you ask a devout humanist, anybody who believes in a god has his brains filled with jell-o.
How about if we live and let live.
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markomalley
dmiller--
A couple a things to think about:
Ignatius of Antioch died sometime between 98 and 117 AD
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-...tm#P3038_494445
Justin Martyr died in 165
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-...tm#P4582_965035
There are others identified as "Church Fathers" whom I could quote. But, my purpose is not to convince you of the Trinity, but, rather simply to let you know that there was a lot of "triune" thought out there prior to Nicea, contrary to what VPW taught.
Wierwille taught that Arian thought was the norm until Constantine converted and made Christianity legal in the Roman Empire -- where it got mixed up with Roman pagan religion. He was wrong, as I just showed you. (Provided the Calvin College "Christian Classics Ethereal Library" is not intentionally publishing forgeries). How many other places has VPW lied in his doctrine???
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dmiller
Amen to that!! Btw -- thanks for the links to those other quotes you posted. I know that triune thought was in evidence way before Nicea. It just happened to come into fruition as "Official Doctrine" back in 325. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't around until then.
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dmiller
Oh -- also -- Have you read WHEN JESUS BECAME GOD by Richard Rubenstein?? If you haven't, I recommend it very highly!
:)-->
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markomalley
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