As far as the Bible is concern, I belieive that there are 100s of ways to interpret the thing. As you see, one man made a lucertive buisness out of HIS private interpretation. We all fell for it . Without him this website wouldn't exist.
I don't buy the (sinful) homosexual conduct accounts no matter how you spin it. I'v read peices of work on both sides and tend to be on the opposite side of fundelmentalism.
It won't be surprise that I don't buy them either.
The argument for the state making one set of arrangements and religions making their own is a sound one - it allows civil rights and benefits to citizens without making religious judgments.
A cultural change is happening no matter what religion wants to dictate - it has too often been a cruel and enslaving thing and not the path to true freedom.
"I belieive that there are 100s of ways to interpret the thing"
So does this mean that "the thing" is only the Word of 'interpretations'? and not the Word of truth? Or do we just chooce the 'truth' that most suits our 'lifestyle'?
Has God changed His mind then since Soddom, etc etc?
Hmmm, I'd say there's more than one man profiting from their interpretation.
The one thing I did learn from my experience with this institution is that there IS Truth, whether or not we want to accept it. I have gained enough respect for 'the thing' to not change it to suit my own ends.
...and if thats religion, then I haven't seen too much of it around!
Although this is not the fourm to debate literalism or figurtive historical accounts, I ment no disrespect to the Bible. I believe there is a lot of spiritual truths in it. My point is when you take the Bible and spend your own truth, it is no longer a spiritual book. Thus it becomes a thing. IMO
I'v seen both sides of the equation. Fundementalist who use it to fuel there hatred and graniosity. Much like the Klan. And those that use it for pleasurable gain. TWI and some sects of mormonism.
So with that in mind you have to do your own homework and decide for yourself. Not to allow for somone else's Zeal be your persauder.
I do not take the accounts of Sodom and Gomorrah literally. I believe the message was about Hospitality not Homosexuality. I have no personal gain in this belief. Just my personal research has directed me to this conclusion.
Sorry, lost me on the "spending your own truth" bit. Must say though, you do have a good point about Sodom & gomorrah. Maybe it should be called "hospitalised" in stead of "sodomised". Can't says I can take it much further than that though.
Anyway, I am unable to comment on what does or does not influence your personal research as I do not know you from Adam (or Eve).
However I would like to draw on an excellent bit of script writing in saying "what we do in life, echoe's in eternity".
God's Word can only be forever where it is pure and unadulterated and is incapable of mistranslation and misinterpretation - this we know is not the case even from our own TWI experience.
One "bible believer" can see things one way and another "bible believer" can see things an entirely different way and this is just as true of homosexuality as it is of the Trinity and a host of other areas where there is disagreement, yet the same God is supposed to be the author and you would expect him to be so concerned about the quality of his product that it should not be possible to disagree with how we understand it.
The fact that literalism can so often be confounded does not seem to dismay the literalists - they have decided what the meaning is - it's plain to them and therefore it should be plain to all - no matter if it flies against the truth of people's experience of real life or of science or of the unfolding discoveries about what makes mankind tick.
Please do not assume that people such as Imbus and myself have not researched and dug and weighed and considered things very carefully before reaching our conclusions. If they disagree with yours, that's our right. God is the only judge and I have a conscience that condemns me not.
I just discovered this forum late last night when I was about to go to bed. I regret not coming across it sooner. That said, I'm sure that as this continues to develop, someone will tell ME to STFU. However, the Vietnam-era USAF SSGT that I am will say, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" and keep right on moving.
Someone in a previous post stated that he/she had to go through a thorough process of what he or she believed, and has come to the conclusion that VPW & LCM were full of s*** when it came to the topic of homosexuality.
I went through the same thing when I researched Romans chapter 1 (the part that details one's fall from the straight world to the gutter of gayness) and discovered that you couldn't force me, or my life's experience into that scenario with a 1 megaton tipped cruise missile set to detonate at rooftop level. It didn't work when I originally took PFAL, (or the intermediate class, the advanced class, went WOW), it doesn't work now. So I had to make some decisions myself - Is there absolute truth, i. e., the Bible, or is there not? And what is it that I believe?
On both points, I don't know. I honestly don't know.
I -DO- know that I did not choose to be gay. So don't even TRY to bring that up with me. You will not win.
Some here keep insisting that there is a definitive link connecting homosexuality with pedophelia, and that however slim that connection is, all the laws of the universe should come down on everything even remotely connected with granting the most basic of equal, human rights for gays. (OK, perhaps I'm overstating that a bit, but you get my point, I trust.)
One post insinuated that NAMBLA marches in Gay Pride parades. I'm hesitant to grace that remark with a reply, however, the truth must be told. I've been attending Gay Pride parades in Chicago since 1996. Haven't missed one since. They are HUGE affairs - last year, the attendance was estimated to be 400,000 - second only to the St. Patrick's Day parade. Never ONCE have I seen a NAMBLA contingent march by. The last time I read about such a group marching in a Gay Pride parade, they were booed, even attacked, and ultimately were forced to drop out.
The opposite of this scenario happens when the PFLAG (Parents, Family, Friends of Lesbians and Gays) contingent comes by. You can tell when they are coming - it's a tidal wave of applause that precedes them.
The issue of gay marriage cannot and should not be equated with someone who wants to marry his gold fish, or have sexual relations with his microwave oven. (Ouch!!!) Those arguments are just plain stupid.
What if Trefor Heywood (as an example, I've never met the man) and I met someday, fell in love and decided we wanted to marry? To stay with each other for the rest of eternity, buy a house, put up a white picket fence, plant a garden, all that... What right does anyone have to tell us we cannot marry? I don't see a problem.
Allowing gay marriage will not harm the "traditional" institution of marriage in any discernible way.
I have a lot more to say, but for now, that's my two cents. Trefor, there's my tuppence -;)-->
quote: Please do not assume that people such as Imbus and myself have not researched and dug and weighed and considered things very carefully before reaching our conclusions. If they disagree with yours, that's our right
quote: The one thing I did learn from my experience with this institution is that there IS Truth, whether or not we want to accept it. I have gained enough respect for 'the thing' to not change it to suit my own ends.
Absolutely -- try to change man's laws to suit your own ends, and you will end up in jail.
"Sorry officer -- I know the speed limit is 30 here in town, but I'm in a hurry..."
"Sorry judge -- I know I need insurance on my car to drive it legally, but I'm under-payed, and can't afford it..."
and the most classic changing the rules "excuse" I have ever heard
from a Northwest Airlines pilot found drunk,in the cockpit of his airliner, getting ready for take off --
"I'm alcoholic. I need a few drinks to function right". -->
Yea -- there IS such a thing as truth, both physically and spiritually. Changing the physical truth, ends you up in a lot of trouble with the law. And then...?
What is the name of that "figure of speech" where one statement is voiced, implying the other which is not said??
You don’t seem to have learned from your TWI experience that Gods Word IS forever whether you like it or not and whether you “adulterate” it or not.
quote:
"Please do not assume that people such as Imbus and myself have not researched and dug and weighed and considered things very carefully before reaching our conclusions. If they disagree with yours, that's our right. God is the only judge and I have a conscience that condemns me not."
Please do not assume I assumed. You can do as much research as you like, but how many “researchers” agree with you? Research is no guarantee for truth! There are lies, damn lies and research!
You stand approved (or not) by RIGHTLY dividing the Word of truth…remember? …that’s the Word of God, not TWI. Of course you can always have as many dividing’s of that verse as you want, but I can not talk myself out of ONE right dividing. Like I used to say when I was an innie;
“If God agrees with so many contradicting beliefs, then He must be more confused than the lot of us!”
If there is no right dividing, there is no truth, thus, we are all right and we are all are as God, writing our own books of truth.
I am sure if this is your belief your conscience will not condemn you, but since when is your conscience the measure of Truth?
Q. If the truth is not in there, how will it condemn you when you are wrong?
A. It will condemn you not.
Oh yes, the Adversary, if you still believe that he is real and not just figurative, is out to counterfeit the Truth. I would say that an unbelievers “marriage” is the counterfeit, a “gay marriage”, well…
Now, I am sure you will be happy to hear, I really am S’ingTFU.
I do not have the last word on the subject but I know someone who does. We’ll see at the Return.
Snowballer, You and Oldies perspective and mindset is a marrige made in heaven.
A wonderful Women of God once shared with me something that has been the arbitarator of my heart. We where talking about "The Law" and "Grace". While discussing the differences, mercy and compassion came up. She got very quiet and said" I think we are all going to be surprised as to what was important to God".
I think compassion and mercy are what's important to God. Not the "jot and tittle" of a matter. But that's just my opinion. At least that is what I see in the life and love of Jesus Christ.
"perspective and mindset is a marrige made in heaven"
Philippians 2:2, KJV
"Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same
love, being of one accord, of one mind."
quote:
We where talking about "The Law" and "Grace"...I think compassion and mercy are what's important to God. Not the "jot and tittle" of a matter. But that's just my opinion.
Rom 6:1-151 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor
thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such
were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and
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dmiller
Yea -- not only did I figure it out, I'll comply with it.
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Mister P-Mosh
It wasn't directed towards anyone here, just society in general.
;)-->
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dmiller
I knew that. But thanks fer the "head's up"
;)-->
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dmiller
Ya think everyone else will get it??
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imbus
As far as the Bible is concern, I belieive that there are 100s of ways to interpret the thing. As you see, one man made a lucertive buisness out of HIS private interpretation. We all fell for it . Without him this website wouldn't exist.
I don't buy the (sinful) homosexual conduct accounts no matter how you spin it. I'v read peices of work on both sides and tend to be on the opposite side of fundelmentalism.
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Trefor Heywood
It won't be surprise that I don't buy them either.
The argument for the state making one set of arrangements and religions making their own is a sound one - it allows civil rights and benefits to citizens without making religious judgments.
A cultural change is happening no matter what religion wants to dictate - it has too often been a cruel and enslaving thing and not the path to true freedom.
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Snoballer
"I belieive that there are 100s of ways to interpret the thing"
So does this mean that "the thing" is only the Word of 'interpretations'? and not the Word of truth? Or do we just chooce the 'truth' that most suits our 'lifestyle'?
Has God changed His mind then since Soddom, etc etc?
Hmmm, I'd say there's more than one man profiting from their interpretation.
The one thing I did learn from my experience with this institution is that there IS Truth, whether or not we want to accept it. I have gained enough respect for 'the thing' to not change it to suit my own ends.
...and if thats religion, then I haven't seen too much of it around!
Snow
-->
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imbus
Although this is not the fourm to debate literalism or figurtive historical accounts, I ment no disrespect to the Bible. I believe there is a lot of spiritual truths in it. My point is when you take the Bible and spend your own truth, it is no longer a spiritual book. Thus it becomes a thing. IMO
I'v seen both sides of the equation. Fundementalist who use it to fuel there hatred and graniosity. Much like the Klan. And those that use it for pleasurable gain. TWI and some sects of mormonism.
So with that in mind you have to do your own homework and decide for yourself. Not to allow for somone else's Zeal be your persauder.
I do not take the accounts of Sodom and Gomorrah literally. I believe the message was about Hospitality not Homosexuality. I have no personal gain in this belief. Just my personal research has directed me to this conclusion.
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Snoballer
Sorry, lost me on the "spending your own truth" bit. Must say though, you do have a good point about Sodom & gomorrah. Maybe it should be called "hospitalised" in stead of "sodomised". Can't says I can take it much further than that though.
Anyway, I am unable to comment on what does or does not influence your personal research as I do not know you from Adam (or Eve).
However I would like to draw on an excellent bit of script writing in saying "what we do in life, echoe's in eternity".
So now, taking Mr P-M's advice,
I will now STFU.
TTFN
:)-->
BTW, Not Cymru am Byth but Gair Duw am Byth!
Literal according to usage:
Not Wales forever but God's Word forever!
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Trefor Heywood
Wy t'in siarad Cymraeg Snoballer?
God's Word can only be forever where it is pure and unadulterated and is incapable of mistranslation and misinterpretation - this we know is not the case even from our own TWI experience.
One "bible believer" can see things one way and another "bible believer" can see things an entirely different way and this is just as true of homosexuality as it is of the Trinity and a host of other areas where there is disagreement, yet the same God is supposed to be the author and you would expect him to be so concerned about the quality of his product that it should not be possible to disagree with how we understand it.
The fact that literalism can so often be confounded does not seem to dismay the literalists - they have decided what the meaning is - it's plain to them and therefore it should be plain to all - no matter if it flies against the truth of people's experience of real life or of science or of the unfolding discoveries about what makes mankind tick.
Please do not assume that people such as Imbus and myself have not researched and dug and weighed and considered things very carefully before reaching our conclusions. If they disagree with yours, that's our right. God is the only judge and I have a conscience that condemns me not.
Diolch am neges t'in!
:D-->
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ExWayDaryl
I just discovered this forum late last night when I was about to go to bed. I regret not coming across it sooner. That said, I'm sure that as this continues to develop, someone will tell ME to STFU. However, the Vietnam-era USAF SSGT that I am will say, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" and keep right on moving.
Someone in a previous post stated that he/she had to go through a thorough process of what he or she believed, and has come to the conclusion that VPW & LCM were full of s*** when it came to the topic of homosexuality.
I went through the same thing when I researched Romans chapter 1 (the part that details one's fall from the straight world to the gutter of gayness) and discovered that you couldn't force me, or my life's experience into that scenario with a 1 megaton tipped cruise missile set to detonate at rooftop level. It didn't work when I originally took PFAL, (or the intermediate class, the advanced class, went WOW), it doesn't work now. So I had to make some decisions myself - Is there absolute truth, i. e., the Bible, or is there not? And what is it that I believe?
On both points, I don't know. I honestly don't know.
I -DO- know that I did not choose to be gay. So don't even TRY to bring that up with me. You will not win.
Some here keep insisting that there is a definitive link connecting homosexuality with pedophelia, and that however slim that connection is, all the laws of the universe should come down on everything even remotely connected with granting the most basic of equal, human rights for gays. (OK, perhaps I'm overstating that a bit, but you get my point, I trust.)
One post insinuated that NAMBLA marches in Gay Pride parades. I'm hesitant to grace that remark with a reply, however, the truth must be told. I've been attending Gay Pride parades in Chicago since 1996. Haven't missed one since. They are HUGE affairs - last year, the attendance was estimated to be 400,000 - second only to the St. Patrick's Day parade. Never ONCE have I seen a NAMBLA contingent march by. The last time I read about such a group marching in a Gay Pride parade, they were booed, even attacked, and ultimately were forced to drop out.
The opposite of this scenario happens when the PFLAG (Parents, Family, Friends of Lesbians and Gays) contingent comes by. You can tell when they are coming - it's a tidal wave of applause that precedes them.
The issue of gay marriage cannot and should not be equated with someone who wants to marry his gold fish, or have sexual relations with his microwave oven. (Ouch!!!) Those arguments are just plain stupid.
What if Trefor Heywood (as an example, I've never met the man) and I met someday, fell in love and decided we wanted to marry? To stay with each other for the rest of eternity, buy a house, put up a white picket fence, plant a garden, all that... What right does anyone have to tell us we cannot marry? I don't see a problem.
Allowing gay marriage will not harm the "traditional" institution of marriage in any discernible way.
I have a lot more to say, but for now, that's my two cents. Trefor, there's my tuppence -
;)-->
ExWayDaryl
Lives in Franklin Park Illinois with his cat
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Trefor Heywood
Daryl! Is that a proposal?
-->
When do we go to Tiffany's for the ring?
;)-->
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Tom Strange
oh you two!
:D-->
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dmiller
and which one wears the ring??
-->
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dmiller
Yes it is.
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dmiller
Absolutely -- try to change man's laws to suit your own ends, and you will end up in jail.
"Sorry officer -- I know the speed limit is 30 here in town, but I'm in a hurry..."
"Sorry judge -- I know I need insurance on my car to drive it legally, but I'm under-payed, and can't afford it..."
and the most classic changing the rules "excuse" I have ever heard
from a Northwest Airlines pilot found drunk,in the cockpit of his airliner, getting ready for take off --
"I'm alcoholic. I need a few drinks to function right".
-->
Yea -- there IS such a thing as truth, both physically and spiritually. Changing the physical truth, ends you up in a lot of trouble with the law. And then...?
What is the name of that "figure of speech" where one statement is voiced, implying the other which is not said??
It certainly applies here.
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parsley
another wedding?!? yee haw!
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Trefor Heywood
I apologise dmiller!
In these days of equality I should of course have used the plural - rings
:D-->
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
It is of course, not who gets to wear the rings, but who gets to wear the French butler's outfit.
:D-->
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Snoballer
You don’t seem to have learned from your TWI experience that Gods Word IS forever whether you like it or not and whether you “adulterate” it or not.
Please do not assume I assumed. You can do as much research as you like, but how many “researchers” agree with you? Research is no guarantee for truth! There are lies, damn lies and research!
You stand approved (or not) by RIGHTLY dividing the Word of truth…remember? …that’s the Word of God, not TWI. Of course you can always have as many dividing’s of that verse as you want, but I can not talk myself out of ONE right dividing. Like I used to say when I was an innie;
“If God agrees with so many contradicting beliefs, then He must be more confused than the lot of us!”
If there is no right dividing, there is no truth, thus, we are all right and we are all are as God, writing our own books of truth.
I am sure if this is your belief your conscience will not condemn you, but since when is your conscience the measure of Truth?
Q. If the truth is not in there, how will it condemn you when you are wrong?
A. It will condemn you not.
Oh yes, the Adversary, if you still believe that he is real and not just figurative, is out to counterfeit the Truth. I would say that an unbelievers “marriage” is the counterfeit, a “gay marriage”, well…
Now, I am sure you will be happy to hear, I really am S’ingTFU.
I do not have the last word on the subject but I know someone who does. We’ll see at the Return.
10-4
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dmiller
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imbus
Snowballer, You and Oldies perspective and mindset is a marrige made in heaven.
A wonderful Women of God once shared with me something that has been the arbitarator of my heart. We where talking about "The Law" and "Grace". While discussing the differences, mercy and compassion came up. She got very quiet and said" I think we are all going to be surprised as to what was important to God".
I think compassion and mercy are what's important to God. Not the "jot and tittle" of a matter. But that's just my opinion. At least that is what I see in the life and love of Jesus Christ.
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Snoballer
Philippians 2:2, KJV
"Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same
love, being of one accord, of one mind."
Rom 6:1-151 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor
thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such
were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and
by the Spirit of our God.
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Trefor Heywood
Some mistranslations there in the KJV - but it puts VP and LC out of the running doesn't it?
Puts a helluvalot of people out of the running taken at literalist face value.
That's why it's dangerous to vaunt one passage over others.
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