The bible say murder is wrong. It is against the Law. the bible addresses both issues so Garth I will tell you I do not live in a fantasy world of "what if's" I still enjoy reality and truth as a base line of Living Life.
You sound rather self righteous Garth. with you hands on your hips or something. I live in a world that has alot to do with lots of stuff that God says is wrong . It still does not make it right .
Yes I believe the bible is a standard to live by, but not as a pick and chose what works for my own greed or lust . As an example of goodness and righteousness and power to change the evil that surrounds us.
Garth: What's a little sarcasm, between friends? Besides, it's hardly a weak argument, even though I was being facetious. Society makes seemingly-arbitrary decisions all the time, based on other factors the citizens cannot change, like voting at 18, or no Schwarzenegger for President. Even though they may not prefer it, homosexuals still have the same right as anyone to enter into a state-sanctioned civil marriage with persons of the opposite sex, provided they are of a certain age and past a certain blood relationship. Heterosexuals are just as barred by the law from entering into same-sex marriages of convenience for tax purposes and whatnot. No matter how emotional some wish to make the issue, it is by no means a question of civil rights being withheld. It's a question of whether or not some prefer to exercise the civil right they already have.
You're single, Garth. Do you really want your taxes to go up to pay for everybody else's civil marriage benefits? How about widows?
Let's say a hypothetical British subject emigrates to the US, but he prefers to drive on the left side of the road. Why should he be penalized? It's how he's driven all his adult life! Why should he be forced to do something that feels unnatural to him? Does the Constitution guarantee him a set of left-side roads? Of course not. The existing roads are adequate for what they're designed to do. If someone doesn't like the way they're laid out, he can either learn to drive on the right, hire a driver, or abstain from road travel altogether.
quote: The bible say murder is wrong. It is against the Law. the bible addresses both issues so Garth I will tell you I do not live in a fantasy world of "what if's" I still enjoy reality and truth as a base line of Living Life.
Fantasy world of 'what ifs' huh? Well, I think that its through considering the 'what ifs' that we can think about and question what we're taught and learn about in life, rather than accepting something w/o question (like we did in TWI, remember?). So if doing that is 'fantasy', I'll take it.
And speaking of reality and truth, murder kills people. Homosexuality does not. And it isn't 'reality and truth' that homosexuality is a threat to our propagation as a species. Please see my previous example of *6 billion* people for further illustration of this 'reality and truth'.
Zix,
I knew you were being sarcastic; thats why I had the smiley after my statement. But I also knew that even in that sarcasm, you were trying to make a point. So I addressed that too.
quote: You're single, Garth. Do you really want your taxes to go up to pay for everybody else's civil marriage benefits? How about widows?
Hhmmmm, when large companies (like Halliburton) no longer enjoys tax benefits that also help to increase my tax burden, then you'll have a point to make, as the tax burden that they all enjoy could easily outweigh the tax-free gains that same-sex marriages would receive, would they not?
Nahhhh, I somehow don't think that this bruhaha raised by the anti-same-sex marriage activists is really about tax fairness, raised insurance rates, or even 'states rights'. -->
And you bring up Yet Another Weak Example in your 'I drive on the left side of the road 'cause it feels *so* natural to me' example. ... Oh wait, you're being sarcastic Yet Again, right?
Heh heh heh. :D-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
quote: Christmas you guys, when has a homosexual done anything to you personally, anyway?
Back in 1974 when I was seventeen a fifty year old queer tried to molest me in his mobile home down in Louisiana. I had to beat him up to get outa there.
And then while in Seattle in 1997 a large group of queers disgusted me and a large amount of "straights" (including families with little children) with their public make out sessions in a very public tourist area. And as people walked past this large group of queers celebrating their Bill Clinton "National Gay Month", these guys would yell; "Get over it! We're here and we're queer!"
And then in the same year as I was northbound on one of Alaska's ferries, we had two gay guys in the ships bar and lounge who, while on a couch would not stop their make out and "heavy petting" (genital grabbing) session, and as I was called out to ask them to please stop and to "go get a room", they insulted me and later on insulted the Chief Mate, and all the while many disgusted passengers in the bar as well as kids in the passageway looked on. It was disgusting and insulting.
So, you asked when, and that was "when". We already talked about those incidents long ago on this thread. You can go back and get the full story if you like.
When you get to the 'green beer' part, then I'll listen. :D-->
Maybe not green, but the blackest beer in the world that is so dark it sucks the light out of the room exists only in Ireland. It's not my home, so I can't say I'm feeling homesick, but I have been missing it a lot lately and I really need to go back soon.
So, you asked when, and that was "when". We already talked about those incidents long ago on this thread. You can go back and get the full story if you like.
Jonny,
The first one was an individual who was a bastard, and the others is a problem that childish straight people do as well. I wouldn't expect a normal person that is gay such as Trefor to be making out in public or anything like that. The problem is that you can't judge an entire group of people based on the deeds of individuals. It's like saying, "A black guy robbed me once, and a black guy broke into my neighbor's house, so I hate them because they're all criminals."
I don't want to diminish your genuine discomfort regarding your run-ins with homosexuals in your past. But a few bad apples don't indicate the quality of the whole barrell do they?
I was raped at age 20 by a guy in my twig. In my 40+ years I have managed to run into tens of tens of MANLY MEN that are just too disgusting to consider having a cup of coffee with, let alone spend 10 minutes with. Does that mean that I HATE ALL MEN? Thankfully, no.
Many people have been victims of horrendous child abuse at the hands of their mothers or fathers...does that mean they should hate ALL MOTHERS or FATHERS?
Again, I understand that you were simply answering a question put directly to you...in a very direct manner.
I just think that we all need to get beyond judging all of one type of human by the actions of a few disgusting ones.
I'll avoid commenting on your thought processes, but I will note that you're not very observant. Chwester and I couldn't be farther apart in our opinions about homosexuality or God. I don't think, speak, or write badly of homosexuals or homosexuality, and I don't believe in God/gods. I actually am an atheist, not some jerk who thinks that threatening to throw a tantrum and become one (or move to Canada) will impress anyone.
I have never said that homosexuals are a threat to society, or in any way characterized them negatively. I have not argued against same-sex unions, whether called marriage or not. I have not advocated a constitutional amendment. I have advocated understanding the Constitution and the law, and have attempted to discuss them and issues relating to them in a reasonable manner. You should try that sometime. Or, you could just holler "Nazi!"
I never offered any judgement in that last post. I simply answered Garth's question. I will state his question again so it is clear. Here it is again:
quote: Christmas you guys, when has a homosexual done anything to you personally, anyway?
Garth put the question in the singular, i.e. "a homosexual", and I illustrated where one homosexual did to me what he did, and also how numerous homosexuals did what they did. I simply answered his question, that's all.
P-Mosh
The two guys in the bar, while doing what hetero couples have also done, did something else which set them apart: They told me and my bartender friend that they had the "right" to do what they were doing in public becuase it was "National Gay Appreciation Month". They said we were trampling on their "right" to do what they were doing. If you will look back somewhere in this long thread, you can re-read the more detailed account. The reason I brought it up then was because I wanted to illustrate that many gays want "extra special rights" or treatment. I think that "Hate Crime" laws fall into this category.
In my answer to Garths' question, I didn't offer any judgement however. I did call them "queers" simply because they were calling themselves queers, and so queer must be ok these days.
My position on the gay scene is simply this: I think it is as much sin as I think adultry, stealin', lyin', or drinkin' too much and raisin' hell is sin. I do not propose that we persecute gays, and if you'll look back in this thread a ways Radar, you'll find a few posts where I mentioned my relationship with a gay gal whom I consider a friend. And since I do not believe that homosexuality (gay guy or lesbian), is eithe Godly or Natural, I do not believe in legalizing gay marriages.
So, Radar, I hope you are not too disillusioned with me now. I like you too!!
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on March 02, 2004 at 12:34.]
you know what it may be like to believe in something we all do it. the fantsy is in the pretending "what if's" you stated are real.
If you think the bible is fantasy ok. It is a real book not a pretend scene of what if. I chose to have that book guide my standards in life . so did many of our fore fathers and many of the Majority today.
It isnt personal Garth at least not by me as much as many hopes it would be, to creat drama and pity it is a culture and standard America choses to live by.
quite simple really. I also do not think teenager should own very mean pit bulls and get them high before they go to the park... etc.
Is homosexuality illegal? where did that come from no one has been arrested for being homosexual BUT actualy sodomy is still illegal in some states ! not NY but some states do have a LAW against it!
surprised ? do not be I think the bleeding heart victim for what someone does sexualy is getting quite stale .
Why should they get married? becuase they are victims of discrimination? so is just about any group that doesnt get what it wants in America . It is still all about what the people want the people are the majority.
Since when was America about the tyranny of the majority? Has our culture become so blind to what the founding fathers stood for that we think, "there's more of us, so we have the right to bully them around?" Might doesn't make right, nor does a majority make things right.
Since when was America about the tyranny of the majority? Has our culture become so blind to what the founding fathers stood for that we think, "there's more of us, so we have the right to bully them around?" Might doesn't make right, nor does a majority make things right.
Nobody has suggested bullying anybody around, or anything remotely resembling tyranny. If you want to know what the founding fathers stood for, read the Constitution.
(Edited to further show where my initial impression of Long Gone was misplaced. My bad.)
You do make a point in showing the difference between your views and Chwesters, and for that I stand corrected.
Let me elaborate more where my 'thought processes' are coming from.
I find it puzzling that those who wish to protect the integrity/stability of the Constitution support the amending it from a moral/religious standpoint, and that they don't believe that gays have a legal/Constitutional standpoint supporting their argument for equal protection under the law (Oooo looky, a Constitutional principle! :D--> Which is what I thought the basis for their argument was to begin with, rather than a 'constitutional right' to marry itself.) re: marriage.
A valid point was made to Trefor that its our country's right to amend the Constitution so for whatever reason we wish, but as the 19th amendment re: prohibition and its associated amendment that reversed the 19th shows, amending the Constitution for overly-hyped religious/moral/social reasons that have little to do with supporting or strengthening the rights of American citizens wind up with disasterous results. In other words, why have an amendment that restricts already given rights and freedoms?
So it was seen with the Human Life Amendment (which died an early death back in the 80's), and so it shall be with (what I call) the Dubya Anti-Gay Amendment. It will (hopefully) die an early death too, but Dubya doesn't really give a rat's a**. He's just trying to score points with/kiss up to his religious reich supporters.
And that is Yet Another Reason I'm going Democratic in my voting for prez this year.
And as regards my 'tantrum' for moving to Canada, why would I want to live in an Amerika where the religious reich rules? Religious tyrants usually did motivate many people to leave their respective countries before in centuries past. (You know, ... in search of freedom?) Why should this be any different?
Unless there are actually people here who think that these pharisees help to actually *preserve* our freedoms. -->
Right!
I hope that this shows you more of how my 'thought processes' operate. I trust that it doesn't scare you too much.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
quote: that gays have a legal/Constitutional standpoint supporting their argument for equal protection under the law (Oooo looky, a Constitutional principle!
Yeah, but that is meant for regular people not gays!
Actually, I was just testing my ablility to be a "troll" if I wanted to be one. Would that be being a troll? I just learned of this "troll thing" and wanted to try it out...Really, I didn't mean that above post...Sorry...
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Trefor Heywood
Mark: Federalism has met problems before and had to deal with them. The original framers could not cross every i nor dot every t nor foresee how things would develop in the future. It created prob
Zixar
Here's a link to an article by Card on the problem with courts legislating by decision: Cool New Rights Are Fine, But What About Democracy?
J0nny Ling0
Ok. Apparently Massachusetts is poised to move on with same sex marriage. First of all, and it may not surprise some of you, I am opposed to this. Since I don't live in Mass, however, it doesn't real
dmiller
Trefor -- well hey ! Happy (belated) St. David's day.
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
And BTW thanks for the Cymru Am Byth definition. I had no clue what it meant, and wondered if it was something X-rated!!
Naw -- not really. 
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mj412
The bible say murder is wrong. It is against the Law. the bible addresses both issues so Garth I will tell you I do not live in a fantasy world of "what if's" I still enjoy reality and truth as a base line of Living Life.
You sound rather self righteous Garth. with you hands on your hips or something. I live in a world that has alot to do with lots of stuff that God says is wrong . It still does not make it right .
Yes I believe the bible is a standard to live by, but not as a pick and chose what works for my own greed or lust . As an example of goodness and righteousness and power to change the evil that surrounds us.
it works well thanks.
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Zixar
Garth: What's a little sarcasm, between friends? Besides, it's hardly a weak argument, even though I was being facetious. Society makes seemingly-arbitrary decisions all the time, based on other factors the citizens cannot change, like voting at 18, or no Schwarzenegger for President. Even though they may not prefer it, homosexuals still have the same right as anyone to enter into a state-sanctioned civil marriage with persons of the opposite sex, provided they are of a certain age and past a certain blood relationship. Heterosexuals are just as barred by the law from entering into same-sex marriages of convenience for tax purposes and whatnot. No matter how emotional some wish to make the issue, it is by no means a question of civil rights being withheld. It's a question of whether or not some prefer to exercise the civil right they already have.
You're single, Garth. Do you really want your taxes to go up to pay for everybody else's civil marriage benefits? How about widows?
Let's say a hypothetical British subject emigrates to the US, but he prefers to drive on the left side of the road. Why should he be penalized? It's how he's driven all his adult life! Why should he be forced to do something that feels unnatural to him? Does the Constitution guarantee him a set of left-side roads? Of course not. The existing roads are adequate for what they're designed to do. If someone doesn't like the way they're laid out, he can either learn to drive on the right, hire a driver, or abstain from road travel altogether.
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GarthP2000
Mj412,
Fantasy world of 'what ifs' huh? Well, I think that its through considering the 'what ifs' that we can think about and question what we're taught and learn about in life, rather than accepting something w/o question (like we did in TWI, remember?). So if doing that is 'fantasy', I'll take it.
And speaking of reality and truth, murder kills people. Homosexuality does not. And it isn't 'reality and truth' that homosexuality is a threat to our propagation as a species. Please see my previous example of *6 billion* people for further illustration of this 'reality and truth'.
Zix,
I knew you were being sarcastic; thats why I had the smiley after my statement. But I also knew that even in that sarcasm, you were trying to make a point. So I addressed that too.
Hhmmmm, when large companies (like Halliburton) no longer enjoys tax benefits that also help to increase my tax burden, then you'll have a point to make, as the tax burden that they all enjoy could easily outweigh the tax-free gains that same-sex marriages would receive, would they not?
Nahhhh, I somehow don't think that this bruhaha raised by the anti-same-sex marriage activists is really about tax fairness, raised insurance rates, or even 'states rights'.
-->
And you bring up Yet Another Weak Example in your 'I drive on the left side of the road 'cause it feels *so* natural to me' example. ... Oh wait, you're being sarcastic Yet Again, right?
Heh heh heh.
:D-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Mister P-Mosh
Humph.
Cac ar Cymru! ?re go Br?!!!
Heh, just kidding. This is Irish by the way, because I doubt anyone here would understand it.
Sl?go f?. :-)
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GarthP2000
P-Mosh,
When you get to the 'green beer' part, then I'll listen.
:D-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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J0nny Ling0
Garth said:
Back in 1974 when I was seventeen a fifty year old queer tried to molest me in his mobile home down in Louisiana. I had to beat him up to get outa there.
And then while in Seattle in 1997 a large group of queers disgusted me and a large amount of "straights" (including families with little children) with their public make out sessions in a very public tourist area. And as people walked past this large group of queers celebrating their Bill Clinton "National Gay Month", these guys would yell; "Get over it! We're here and we're queer!"
And then in the same year as I was northbound on one of Alaska's ferries, we had two gay guys in the ships bar and lounge who, while on a couch would not stop their make out and "heavy petting" (genital grabbing) session, and as I was called out to ask them to please stop and to "go get a room", they insulted me and later on insulted the Chief Mate, and all the while many disgusted passengers in the bar as well as kids in the passageway looked on. It was disgusting and insulting.
So, you asked when, and that was "when". We already talked about those incidents long ago on this thread. You can go back and get the full story if you like.
And, you can head out to Canada too if you like..
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Mister P-Mosh
Maybe not green, but the blackest beer in the world that is so dark it sucks the light out of the room exists only in Ireland. It's not my home, so I can't say I'm feeling homesick, but I have been missing it a lot lately and I really need to go back soon.
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Mister P-Mosh
Jonny,
The first one was an individual who was a bastard, and the others is a problem that childish straight people do as well. I wouldn't expect a normal person that is gay such as Trefor to be making out in public or anything like that. The problem is that you can't judge an entire group of people based on the deeds of individuals. It's like saying, "A black guy robbed me once, and a black guy broke into my neighbor's house, so I hate them because they're all criminals."
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Zixar
Garth: Halliburton, eh? That's getting to be a standard dodge now, isn't it? You can do better than that.
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Radar OReilly
Johnny Lingo.....(who I adored as buck
:)--> )
I don't want to diminish your genuine discomfort regarding your run-ins with homosexuals in your past. But a few bad apples don't indicate the quality of the whole barrell do they?
I was raped at age 20 by a guy in my twig. In my 40+ years I have managed to run into tens of tens of MANLY MEN that are just too disgusting to consider having a cup of coffee with, let alone spend 10 minutes with. Does that mean that I HATE ALL MEN? Thankfully, no.
Many people have been victims of horrendous child abuse at the hands of their mothers or fathers...does that mean they should hate ALL MOTHERS or FATHERS?
Again, I understand that you were simply answering a question put directly to you...in a very direct manner.
I just think that we all need to get beyond judging all of one type of human by the actions of a few disgusting ones.
Radar
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LG
Garth,
I'll avoid commenting on your thought processes, but I will note that you're not very observant. Chwester and I couldn't be farther apart in our opinions about homosexuality or God. I don't think, speak, or write badly of homosexuals or homosexuality, and I don't believe in God/gods. I actually am an atheist, not some jerk who thinks that threatening to throw a tantrum and become one (or move to Canada) will impress anyone.
I have never said that homosexuals are a threat to society, or in any way characterized them negatively. I have not argued against same-sex unions, whether called marriage or not. I have not advocated a constitutional amendment. I have advocated understanding the Constitution and the law, and have attempted to discuss them and issues relating to them in a reasonable manner. You should try that sometime. Or, you could just holler "Nazi!"
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J0nny Ling0
Whoaaa Nelly!
Radar-
I never offered any judgement in that last post. I simply answered Garth's question. I will state his question again so it is clear. Here it is again:
Garth put the question in the singular, i.e. "a homosexual", and I illustrated where one homosexual did to me what he did, and also how numerous homosexuals did what they did. I simply answered his question, that's all.
P-Mosh
The two guys in the bar, while doing what hetero couples have also done, did something else which set them apart: They told me and my bartender friend that they had the "right" to do what they were doing in public becuase it was "National Gay Appreciation Month". They said we were trampling on their "right" to do what they were doing. If you will look back somewhere in this long thread, you can re-read the more detailed account. The reason I brought it up then was because I wanted to illustrate that many gays want "extra special rights" or treatment. I think that "Hate Crime" laws fall into this category.
In my answer to Garths' question, I didn't offer any judgement however. I did call them "queers" simply because they were calling themselves queers, and so queer must be ok these days.
My position on the gay scene is simply this: I think it is as much sin as I think adultry, stealin', lyin', or drinkin' too much and raisin' hell is sin. I do not propose that we persecute gays, and if you'll look back in this thread a ways Radar, you'll find a few posts where I mentioned my relationship with a gay gal whom I consider a friend. And since I do not believe that homosexuality (gay guy or lesbian), is eithe Godly or Natural, I do not believe in legalizing gay marriages.
So, Radar, I hope you are not too disillusioned with me now. I like you too!!
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on March 02, 2004 at 12:34.]
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mj412
I question plenty Garth .
you know what it may be like to believe in something we all do it. the fantsy is in the pretending "what if's" you stated are real.
If you think the bible is fantasy ok. It is a real book not a pretend scene of what if. I chose to have that book guide my standards in life . so did many of our fore fathers and many of the Majority today.
It isnt personal Garth at least not by me as much as many hopes it would be, to creat drama and pity it is a culture and standard America choses to live by.
quite simple really. I also do not think teenager should own very mean pit bulls and get them high before they go to the park... etc.
Is homosexuality illegal? where did that come from no one has been arrested for being homosexual BUT actualy sodomy is still illegal in some states ! not NY but some states do have a LAW against it!
surprised ? do not be I think the bleeding heart victim for what someone does sexualy is getting quite stale .
Why should they get married? becuase they are victims of discrimination? so is just about any group that doesnt get what it wants in America . It is still all about what the people want the people are the majority.
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Mister P-Mosh
Since when was America about the tyranny of the majority? Has our culture become so blind to what the founding fathers stood for that we think, "there's more of us, so we have the right to bully them around?" Might doesn't make right, nor does a majority make things right.
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Zixar
Welcome to democracy, Mister P-Mosh!
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Rocky
Actually, the Bill of Rights was established to prevent the tyranny of the majority in the context of democracy.
America is NOT about tyranny of the majority.
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Mister P-Mosh
And here I thought we lived in a Representative Republic, not ancient Greece.
:D-->
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LG
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GarthP2000
Ok. Next time I'll pick on Martha Stewart.
:D--> *Everybody* loves to pick on her.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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GarthP2000
Long Gone,
(Edited to further show where my initial impression of Long Gone was misplaced. My bad.)
You do make a point in showing the difference between your views and Chwesters, and for that I stand corrected.
Let me elaborate more where my 'thought processes' are coming from.
I find it puzzling that those who wish to protect the integrity/stability of the Constitution support the amending it from a moral/religious standpoint, and that they don't believe that gays have a legal/Constitutional standpoint supporting their argument for equal protection under the law (Oooo looky, a Constitutional principle!
:D--> Which is what I thought the basis for their argument was to begin with, rather than a 'constitutional right' to marry itself.) re: marriage.
A valid point was made to Trefor that its our country's right to amend the Constitution so for whatever reason we wish, but as the 19th amendment re: prohibition and its associated amendment that reversed the 19th shows, amending the Constitution for overly-hyped religious/moral/social reasons that have little to do with supporting or strengthening the rights of American citizens wind up with disasterous results. In other words, why have an amendment that restricts already given rights and freedoms?
So it was seen with the Human Life Amendment (which died an early death back in the 80's), and so it shall be with (what I call) the Dubya Anti-Gay Amendment. It will (hopefully) die an early death too, but Dubya doesn't really give a rat's a**. He's just trying to score points with/kiss up to his religious reich supporters.
And that is Yet Another Reason I'm going Democratic in my voting for prez this year.
And as regards my 'tantrum' for moving to Canada, why would I want to live in an Amerika where the religious reich rules? Religious tyrants usually did motivate many people to leave their respective countries before in centuries past. (You know, ... in search of freedom?) Why should this be any different?
Unless there are actually people here who think that these pharisees help to actually *preserve* our freedoms.
-->
Right!
I hope that this shows you more of how my 'thought processes' operate. I trust that it doesn't scare you too much.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
[This message was edited by GarthP2000 on March 02, 2004 at 15:46.]
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J0nny Ling0
Garth said
Yeah, but that is meant for regular people not gays!
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J0nny Ling0
Actually, I was just testing my ablility to be a "troll" if I wanted to be one. Would that be being a troll? I just learned of this "troll thing" and wanted to try it out...Really, I didn't mean that above post...Sorry...
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GarthP2000
Thanks for clarifying that, Jonny, as that post that you didn't mean would have definitely passed the 'troll' test.
Glad to see that you are no troll.
:)-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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