In this country nothing is written in stone the draft can be put in place very easy if needed. Our sons still have to sign up when they turn 18. I do not think the political platform works to save the ills of of the world or America. That is the problem "special interest groups do seem to think they run congress but Trefor I do not want this type of Gvt. That is why we vote who we feel will represent our own state, we have "Levels" of gvt. involvement and say so , it is not like your govt. WE have a "system" that overrules and accepts the people choice . Agenda is as numerous as are groups of people. We are not a socialist state , nor do we have a (human) King or communist Leader that speaks for the people the people decide and the information and agends should be studied by each individual to decide . The bottom line is this Trefor homosexuals are a minority , and as Mark tried to explain to you in a very nice manner this America is not ready for them to be anything eles . I believe it is because so many still believe in God and His truth as written in the scripture and also is incorporated into our constitution as THE SPIRIT that made this Country as POWERFUL as it truly is to the rest of the world. the Spirit of America is an alive force here Trefor one that we all must recognize to remain truly the land of the free. And we do!!!!!
''Focus on the Family'' is a Christian organization headed by Dr. James Dobson, so of course, their view of the same sex marriage question is not going to be a flattering one. And ''the draft'' is no longer in effect, but that is not to say it won't become effective again.
Trefor...
your ''redneck'' comment, if I'm correct in discerning it, was directed in some form to this commentary by 'Lil:
quote: I think sooner or later they (tha gays) are gona fall of'n their soap box into tha wild blue yonder! And I sure hope it ain't in my neighborhood during fishing season...we might use em' fer spoonbill bait
Unfortunately, especially here in Appalachia, that is the consensus concerning gays/lesbians. There are still some folks here who still treat Native Americans as second class citizens. Yes, we have a long way to go. I love ya 'Lil...but you need to get out of the woodshed once in a while! ;)--> As I commented on in an earlier post, if it were a life and death situation, I don't think someone's sexual orientation is going to come into play. Heck, for that matter, if you ran out of gas, are you really going to care if it's a gay couple who offers you a ride to the next gas station??? I wouldn't!
Poilitics are exactly that, politics.
Trefor,
Do you, being in the eye of this storm, think that if the vernacular was changed, ie: civil arrangement as opposed to marriage that this would become more accepted on either side? Just a thought.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
and it can get worse ! look to see if your rep. is on the job or busy "panty sniffing" as Groucho describes or some other distraction , and not paying attention to the amendments that get stuck on or the great eraser from special interest group that lobby EVERY SINGLE day in congress. Bills can and do get modified and changed everyday and end up looking nothing like what the we wanted by the time they go through . That is just ugly and I hate when that happens we need to know who we vote in as the man or woman willing to stop that insanity! vote to stop the money mongers and special interest groups vote for a strong congress !
You are absolutely right. There is no Draft. Haven't had one for years. Strangely though, it is a number of Democrats who want to bring it back. But that's another issue...
Look Trefor,
You have to understand why people are against same sex marriages. It is very simple.
First of all, you BELIEVE that homosexuality is ok. Sometime in your life, you crossed that line and decided that "I am not weird, this is ok, there is nothing wrong with it. This is what I am". However you want to word it, you no doubt decided that "this is what I am, and "there is nothing wrong with it". You may word it however you wish, which is fine with me, but I am somewhere close to the mark. This is now your BELIEF, and you act according to this BELIEF, and you support others who have this BELIEF.
For instance, you support (and possibly applaud) those gays standing in the rain out there in Frisco, getting their illegal documents, while flaunting the laws of the State of California along with the Mayor Of Sanfrancisco. There are also others who are not gay, but support you and others who are gay.
I, and a majority of Americans, do not BELIEVE that homosexuality is ok. Many of us have Biblical reasons for drawing this conclusion, and many others who don't care about Biblical issues, but just plain believe that homosexuality is against Nature, and don't believe that it is right to change our laws to accomodate it. Others do not give a rats a$$ about God or Nature, but don't want to see a particular group change our laws because of what they see as a lifestyle chosen for pleasure.
The problem that many on both sides have is that we don't want someone elses BELIEFS to become OUR Laws.
I believe that our laws are good enough, and if gay people want to have sex with eachother, go ahead, don't flaunt it, get a room and I don't want to hear about it. But don't try to change our Laws and put a "moral stamp of approval" on something that I believe is immoral and wrong. This is based upon my BELIEF which is not subject to change.
And of course, with you being gay, you believe something that is no doubt, the opposite of this.
So, what to do? Well, many gay people think it is all about educating people about "Acceptance, and Tolerance, and Respect, and enlightening the ignorant". Particularly the younger generations. I see this in the public schools all of the time.
We had a gay and lesbian group try to come to my kid's public school and do a little seminar on gay acceptance, where a couple of 40 year old lesbian chicks were to speak about their relationship, and how they were just as "normal" as any hetero couple, with one doing the dishes while the other watched Ellen on TV and drank beer or whatever. And we have the books, "Heather Has Two Mommies", and Daddy's Little Roomate" sitting on the shelves of our public schools now. But we Citizens (a majority of us here) objected to this seminar, wrote letters to the School Board, stood up in School Board meetings and were successful in stopping this thing from happening. And of course we were labeled as Intolerant Hating Homophobes, who were "against Education" of all things. And of couse this whole seminar entitled "Reaching For Respect" was to happen during a full week of regular school time hours, which meant that we taxpayers were to have payed the bill while normal education sat on the back burner for a whole school week.
So, this is something many many many of us here in 'Merica believe to be wrong because it is against our BELIEFS, so we fight against it, and in doing so, are labeled as "homophobes", "haters", and other unjust titles.
This fight will go on, and as morals continue to decay, and the younger generations get older, and teach their children more and more "that gay is ok", there will probably be much more acceptance of homosexuality than ever before. And it will appear that the "gay crusade" has won. I'd say that it is winning now for that matter. You guys are comitted, and have made tremendous strides in your efforts. I would say congratulations, but I believe it is a tragedy.
But someone's BELIEF is right, and someone elses is wrong. And we'll just have to wait and see. As for me and my house, we will continue to walk in love toward "them that are without", and we will serve the Lord as we see His Biblical representation of Himself and His laws and edicts. And we will vote accordingly.
People have BELIEFS, and we People act upon what we BELIEVE, and therefore clash when the Beliefs clash. And that is all there is to it, for many of us will not compromise, for to us, as Martin Luther once said of his BELIEF, it "would not be sane"...
You bring up some good points. I agree with you concerning the ''educating'' of our children concerning alternative lifestyles. However, I also don't agree that school is a place to teach our kids about sex in the first place. It is the parents responsibility to raise their children, not our educational system in this country! I don't know why parents find it so difficult to talk to their kids about sex. In this day and age, with the statistics concerning teenage sex the way they are, you would think that parents would be clamoring to keep sex ed and all of it's forms out of school and back into the home. My kids know that they can come to me about anything sex or otherwise and I am proud to say that my teenagers have made the decision (so far) to remain virgins until marriage.
Sorry for the choo-choo...stepping down off my soapbox. We'll talk about the wolf hunting :(--> another time.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
You do not have to keep repeating that homosexuals are a minority. That is not the issue but rather it is how the majority treats its minorities. A majority can be a tyranny or it can be benevolent. Where a majority discriminates against its minorities by denying them rights and aspirations is is not surprising that they will lose respect in the eyes of many both inside and outside the country. We have seen how the majority treated its black citizens, those who were of a different religion, or appeared to have different political beliefs. A benevolent majority recognises differences and allows for it without concluding that this will somehow affect them.
Colleen:
quote: Trefor,
Do you, being in the eye of this storm, think that if the vernacular was changed, ie: civil arrangement as opposed to marriage that this would become more accepted on either side? Just a thought.
It's possible. It requires that difficult attitude known as compromise and of course there are elements upon both sides who do not see a compromise as possible for one reason or another. I can only speak personally upon this issue which is as long as the civil arrnagements are akin to marriage that the title does not matter. If a couple are civilly joined and choose to call it a marriage as far as they are concerned but accept that others may not accept that terminology and others accept the civil arrangement but will not call it marriage then it is a case merely of semantics. I cannot speak for others, just as heterosexuals are not of the same mind either.
It requires the issues of what one believes (as Jonny talks about) to be balanced with practicalities. You accept Jonny that sex already goes on, but for many people it is not just an issue of sex, but of interpersonal love and relationship. An issue of the state accepting and acknowledging that its citizens wish to make a commitment to each other that is more than people having sex or living together.
Here in the UK this is going to be the case. There has been no redefinition of marriage, but there has been the acceptance that in civil terms, and in everything but name, that same sex couple should enjoy the same availability of legal recognition of their relationship. An argument was made that this would discriminate against heterosexual couples living together, but it was pointed out, and with good reason, that they already had an option of marriage which gay couples did not have. Furthermore it allows conscience to those who have religious beliefs not to view it as a marriage.
A civil contract makes no judgements about what people do or do not do sexually. The emphasis is upon the relationship and the responsibilities and privileges that go with it.
When I meet a husband and wife I do not concentrate upon what they are doing in their bedroom (or as often happens not doing), I simply accept that they have made a commitment to each other and that this gives them a certain public status. I don't care if they have done this for religious reasons or not or whether they married in a church or a registry office. Nor do I expect them to have committed to having children.
But then I have no heterophobia. For some homophobia may be the fear of what they don't understand or don't want to understand and its often the actions they undertake or the way that they express themselves that comes to be interpreted as such. There are many things that I don't like, or consider unchristian, but I have to allow people the right to do what they want according to their own consciences. I fear that some other people have problems doing that and think that everyone should live their way.
And when they think they have the blessings and support of God for doing so then we have an even greater tyranny than the majority, we have theocracy.
Trefor blacks didnt have the right to be citizens . come on , homosexuals have the same rights as every other cititzen.
my cats cant get married and I do not even think they are in minority in the country! go figure . get a rally going set up a lobby do something!!! What you have issues with is people who believe differently than you and in this country the solution is to get involved and make folks change their minds about ideals , which is exactly what is being done.
We have to have order, we have to have standards Trefor geez they have to come from somewhere . They come from our people , the fact homosexuals are a minority is nothing more than the fact my cats cant vote. It isnt something done to them by a tyrant or God loving people it is reality . WE have laws to protect All the people and we do not exclude minorities in our decision or conclusions.
If homosexuals want special rights so do my cats and so does all the single people that want some of the priviledges being married brings , do you not get this Trefor? We do discriminate YES you bet we do we discriminate every single day we pick and chose we decide and it is a GOOD thing.
Not only do I believe the America has a good standard of people with which to make these Judgements and choices , I happen to believe the entire rest of the world believes it or learning very quickly they should .
One of the sole bright spots for those with a traditional
view of marriage and family was Rep. Marie Parente,
D-Milford, one of the senior members of the House, who
chided fellow lawmakers for saying that it was improper to
debate the issue from a religious perspective. In fact,
stories about racism and sexism and all sorts of other
-isms, she said, only underscore the need for God.
"Men fail -- that's why we need to talk about God once in
awhile," she explained. "When I was a child, there was a
guy who went to school with me every day, and He never
failed me. But I'm not even supposed to say His name to
you in here."
Trefor
you may feel it is ridiculas my cats cant vote I feel they are being discriminated against.
You feel your hearing discrimination when same sex can not marry many feel the notion is ridiculas. who wins is in the vote. the people decide.
As far as your whine about how I would feel ?
I am a single woman in a male dominated society , it is white males who have the power and voice in this land so far and I live with the reality of this discrimination every single day . politics and big money is an almost exclusively male game with no woman allowed in America.
I am a minority .
I know how it feels I have lived with it my entire life.
Did you read the item I pasted from the editorial? Did ya really ? she is a woman she is a major player politicaly , she does not rely on men or "ism" she believes God should be involved and she speaks very highly of the one she "walked to school with everyday", but she isnt allowed to say HIS name when dealing with the fact all men will fail one another.
Get real Trefor on your discrimination speal, we all face it everyday . This will be set before the public vote and it will lose .
I agree with you that the USA does have some way to go in this area.
Once of my favourite films is _A few Good Men_ regarding Code Red situations and how Top Brass connived in it. But part of progress is the exposure of such situations.
Not all Americans are Rednecks living out in the boondocks and rearguard actions have a limited timescale. The different concepts of what America is and should be will no doubt carry on competing for attention.
This thread is but one example.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
Well, I was not trying to imply that all of us Yanks are rednecks. My take on the situation is that most people in this country are, deep down inside, quite conservative, particularly with sex. Most of those who aren't are doing so out of some sort of rebellion -- many of those have an incredible amount of guilt (often deeply supressed). Then there are some who are "European" wannabees. They want to prove how "sophisticated" they are. Very few folks over here are truly liberated from their sexual hangups.
(BTW, I personally would fall in the conservative category, but having spent a decade living in Europe, I can see things from other points of view)
This is not to say that everybody in Europe is a total slut, but the fact of the matter is that there is a lot more laissez-faire attitude, even if one chooses personally not to participate.
Are we likely ever to change? Honestly, I really don't think there will ever be a fundamental change over here. I think that the changes in this country are tangential to the fundamental issue. We may, in some epochs, be "purer" that the Europeans. In others, we may be "badder." But, I think we will constantly be skirting the issue (no pun intended).
As far as "rearguard" actions...You, on the surface, are probably correct. But, the fundamental issue addressed above in my post have to change before the tension just below the surface will dissipate.
It goes from tolerance to acceptance to integration. The country right now is barely at the tolerance stage. It will take a lot to get to the acceptance stage. The integration stage, where you want to be, I, honestly, can't ever picture over here. The media isn't this country. The East Coast and the Left Coast are not this country. Flyover country is this country.
And, I like that southern Colorado River. Swam in it once down in Needles, and it was nice and cold on a very hot day! Saw a damned Roadrunner (bird) there that day also. Ran along side my car!
You cannot really claim that women are a minority although I will agree with you that there is discrimination in many areas. I do not believe that that discrimination is right however any more than I believe that discrimination is right on the ground of sexual orientation.
I love cats too by the way. However a cat is not a citizen, they pay no taxes and cannot make human decisions. You are comparing chalk with cheese.
def:
Do you think that those who wish to preserve the culture, as you put it, are prepared to make such proposals in a proactive manner? Thanks for seeing the relationship point which is what I believe is the essential element of the debate.
zix:
It's more what the baggy shorts help to hide compared with what speedos are more likely to reveal... :D-->
Mark:
You make some intelligent analyses. "Flyover country" is relatively sparsely populated, however compared with the east and west coasts. I wonder how it is that European culture and American culture managed to separate so much upon the issue of sex, especially considering how many Americans descend from people from Europe. I can only think that Americans tend to take religion more seriously than Europe, especially in certain areas of the USA. Things like the Scopes Monkey Trial and handling snakes in services would be harder to find here. There was even a programme on TV here last night how one woman in the US has introduced religion into dieting (and is doing very well out of it financially too thankyou).
There will also always be those who resist integration, you still have your white supremicist groups over there, but I believe that it will come to pass in some areas and that this will make a start.
Rocky:
I seem to remember that Lex Luthor had similar ideas about California in Superman the Movie!
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Trefor Heywood
Mark: Federalism has met problems before and had to deal with them. The original framers could not cross every i nor dot every t nor foresee how things would develop in the future. It created prob
Zixar
Here's a link to an article by Card on the problem with courts legislating by decision: Cool New Rights Are Fine, But What About Democracy?
J0nny Ling0
Ok. Apparently Massachusetts is poised to move on with same sex marriage. First of all, and it may not surprise some of you, I am opposed to this. Since I don't live in Mass, however, it doesn't real
mj412
In this country nothing is written in stone the draft can be put in place very easy if needed. Our sons still have to sign up when they turn 18. I do not think the political platform works to save the ills of of the world or America. That is the problem "special interest groups do seem to think they run congress but Trefor I do not want this type of Gvt. That is why we vote who we feel will represent our own state, we have "Levels" of gvt. involvement and say so , it is not like your govt. WE have a "system" that overrules and accepts the people choice . Agenda is as numerous as are groups of people. We are not a socialist state , nor do we have a (human) King or communist Leader that speaks for the people the people decide and the information and agends should be studied by each individual to decide . The bottom line is this Trefor homosexuals are a minority , and as Mark tried to explain to you in a very nice manner this America is not ready for them to be anything eles . I believe it is because so many still believe in God and His truth as written in the scripture and also is incorporated into our constitution as THE SPIRIT that made this Country as POWERFUL as it truly is to the rest of the world. the Spirit of America is an alive force here Trefor one that we all must recognize to remain truly the land of the free. And we do!!!!!
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jezusfreaky
Trefor and MJ...
''Focus on the Family'' is a Christian organization headed by Dr. James Dobson, so of course, their view of the same sex marriage question is not going to be a flattering one. And ''the draft'' is no longer in effect, but that is not to say it won't become effective again.
Trefor...
your ''redneck'' comment, if I'm correct in discerning it, was directed in some form to this commentary by 'Lil:
Unfortunately, especially here in Appalachia, that is the consensus concerning gays/lesbians. There are still some folks here who still treat Native Americans as second class citizens. Yes, we have a long way to go. I love ya 'Lil...but you need to get out of the woodshed once in a while!
;)--> As I commented on in an earlier post, if it were a life and death situation, I don't think someone's sexual orientation is going to come into play. Heck, for that matter, if you ran out of gas, are you really going to care if it's a gay couple who offers you a ride to the next gas station??? I wouldn't!
Poilitics are exactly that, politics.
Trefor,
Do you, being in the eye of this storm, think that if the vernacular was changed, ie: civil arrangement as opposed to marriage that this would become more accepted on either side? Just a thought.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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mj412
Mr lingo.
and it can get worse ! look to see if your rep. is on the job or busy "panty sniffing" as Groucho describes or some other distraction , and not paying attention to the amendments that get stuck on or the great eraser from special interest group that lobby EVERY SINGLE day in congress. Bills can and do get modified and changed everyday and end up looking nothing like what the we wanted by the time they go through . That is just ugly and I hate when that happens we need to know who we vote in as the man or woman willing to stop that insanity! vote to stop the money mongers and special interest groups vote for a strong congress !
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J0nny Ling0
TreFor,
You are absolutely right. There is no Draft. Haven't had one for years. Strangely though, it is a number of Democrats who want to bring it back. But that's another issue...
Look Trefor,
You have to understand why people are against same sex marriages. It is very simple.
First of all, you BELIEVE that homosexuality is ok. Sometime in your life, you crossed that line and decided that "I am not weird, this is ok, there is nothing wrong with it. This is what I am". However you want to word it, you no doubt decided that "this is what I am, and "there is nothing wrong with it". You may word it however you wish, which is fine with me, but I am somewhere close to the mark. This is now your BELIEF, and you act according to this BELIEF, and you support others who have this BELIEF.
For instance, you support (and possibly applaud) those gays standing in the rain out there in Frisco, getting their illegal documents, while flaunting the laws of the State of California along with the Mayor Of Sanfrancisco. There are also others who are not gay, but support you and others who are gay.
I, and a majority of Americans, do not BELIEVE that homosexuality is ok. Many of us have Biblical reasons for drawing this conclusion, and many others who don't care about Biblical issues, but just plain believe that homosexuality is against Nature, and don't believe that it is right to change our laws to accomodate it. Others do not give a rats a$$ about God or Nature, but don't want to see a particular group change our laws because of what they see as a lifestyle chosen for pleasure.
The problem that many on both sides have is that we don't want someone elses BELIEFS to become OUR Laws.
I believe that our laws are good enough, and if gay people want to have sex with eachother, go ahead, don't flaunt it, get a room and I don't want to hear about it. But don't try to change our Laws and put a "moral stamp of approval" on something that I believe is immoral and wrong. This is based upon my BELIEF which is not subject to change.
And of course, with you being gay, you believe something that is no doubt, the opposite of this.
So, what to do? Well, many gay people think it is all about educating people about "Acceptance, and Tolerance, and Respect, and enlightening the ignorant". Particularly the younger generations. I see this in the public schools all of the time.
We had a gay and lesbian group try to come to my kid's public school and do a little seminar on gay acceptance, where a couple of 40 year old lesbian chicks were to speak about their relationship, and how they were just as "normal" as any hetero couple, with one doing the dishes while the other watched Ellen on TV and drank beer or whatever. And we have the books, "Heather Has Two Mommies", and Daddy's Little Roomate" sitting on the shelves of our public schools now. But we Citizens (a majority of us here) objected to this seminar, wrote letters to the School Board, stood up in School Board meetings and were successful in stopping this thing from happening. And of course we were labeled as Intolerant Hating Homophobes, who were "against Education" of all things. And of couse this whole seminar entitled "Reaching For Respect" was to happen during a full week of regular school time hours, which meant that we taxpayers were to have payed the bill while normal education sat on the back burner for a whole school week.
So, this is something many many many of us here in 'Merica believe to be wrong because it is against our BELIEFS, so we fight against it, and in doing so, are labeled as "homophobes", "haters", and other unjust titles.
This fight will go on, and as morals continue to decay, and the younger generations get older, and teach their children more and more "that gay is ok", there will probably be much more acceptance of homosexuality than ever before. And it will appear that the "gay crusade" has won. I'd say that it is winning now for that matter. You guys are comitted, and have made tremendous strides in your efforts. I would say congratulations, but I believe it is a tragedy.
But someone's BELIEF is right, and someone elses is wrong. And we'll just have to wait and see. As for me and my house, we will continue to walk in love toward "them that are without", and we will serve the Lord as we see His Biblical representation of Himself and His laws and edicts. And we will vote accordingly.
People have BELIEFS, and we People act upon what we BELIEVE, and therefore clash when the Beliefs clash. And that is all there is to it, for many of us will not compromise, for to us, as Martin Luther once said of his BELIEF, it "would not be sane"...
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jezusfreaky
Jonny...
You bring up some good points. I agree with you concerning the ''educating'' of our children concerning alternative lifestyles. However, I also don't agree that school is a place to teach our kids about sex in the first place. It is the parents responsibility to raise their children, not our educational system in this country! I don't know why parents find it so difficult to talk to their kids about sex. In this day and age, with the statistics concerning teenage sex the way they are, you would think that parents would be clamoring to keep sex ed and all of it's forms out of school and back into the home. My kids know that they can come to me about anything sex or otherwise and I am proud to say that my teenagers have made the decision (so far) to remain virgins until marriage.
Sorry for the choo-choo...stepping down off my soapbox. We'll talk about the wolf hunting
:(--> another time.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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Rocky
And please don't forget that EVERYthing worthy of complaining about in America is the Democrats' fault.
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Zixar
Oh, make up your mind. First it's all Bush's fault, now it's all the Democrats' fault. How about a little less sweeping generalization?
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Trefor Heywood
mj:
You do not have to keep repeating that homosexuals are a minority. That is not the issue but rather it is how the majority treats its minorities. A majority can be a tyranny or it can be benevolent. Where a majority discriminates against its minorities by denying them rights and aspirations is is not surprising that they will lose respect in the eyes of many both inside and outside the country. We have seen how the majority treated its black citizens, those who were of a different religion, or appeared to have different political beliefs. A benevolent majority recognises differences and allows for it without concluding that this will somehow affect them.
Colleen:
It's possible. It requires that difficult attitude known as compromise and of course there are elements upon both sides who do not see a compromise as possible for one reason or another. I can only speak personally upon this issue which is as long as the civil arrnagements are akin to marriage that the title does not matter. If a couple are civilly joined and choose to call it a marriage as far as they are concerned but accept that others may not accept that terminology and others accept the civil arrangement but will not call it marriage then it is a case merely of semantics. I cannot speak for others, just as heterosexuals are not of the same mind either.
It requires the issues of what one believes (as Jonny talks about) to be balanced with practicalities. You accept Jonny that sex already goes on, but for many people it is not just an issue of sex, but of interpersonal love and relationship. An issue of the state accepting and acknowledging that its citizens wish to make a commitment to each other that is more than people having sex or living together.
Here in the UK this is going to be the case. There has been no redefinition of marriage, but there has been the acceptance that in civil terms, and in everything but name, that same sex couple should enjoy the same availability of legal recognition of their relationship. An argument was made that this would discriminate against heterosexual couples living together, but it was pointed out, and with good reason, that they already had an option of marriage which gay couples did not have. Furthermore it allows conscience to those who have religious beliefs not to view it as a marriage.
A civil contract makes no judgements about what people do or do not do sexually. The emphasis is upon the relationship and the responsibilities and privileges that go with it.
When I meet a husband and wife I do not concentrate upon what they are doing in their bedroom (or as often happens not doing), I simply accept that they have made a commitment to each other and that this gives them a certain public status. I don't care if they have done this for religious reasons or not or whether they married in a church or a registry office. Nor do I expect them to have committed to having children.
But then I have no heterophobia. For some homophobia may be the fear of what they don't understand or don't want to understand and its often the actions they undertake or the way that they express themselves that comes to be interpreted as such. There are many things that I don't like, or consider unchristian, but I have to allow people the right to do what they want according to their own consciences. I fear that some other people have problems doing that and think that everyone should live their way.
And when they think they have the blessings and support of God for doing so then we have an even greater tyranny than the majority, we have theocracy.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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mj412
Trefor blacks didnt have the right to be citizens . come on , homosexuals have the same rights as every other cititzen.
my cats cant get married and I do not even think they are in minority in the country! go figure . get a rally going set up a lobby do something!!! What you have issues with is people who believe differently than you and in this country the solution is to get involved and make folks change their minds about ideals , which is exactly what is being done.
We have to have order, we have to have standards Trefor geez they have to come from somewhere . They come from our people , the fact homosexuals are a minority is nothing more than the fact my cats cant vote. It isnt something done to them by a tyrant or God loving people it is reality . WE have laws to protect All the people and we do not exclude minorities in our decision or conclusions.
If homosexuals want special rights so do my cats and so does all the single people that want some of the priviledges being married brings , do you not get this Trefor? We do discriminate YES you bet we do we discriminate every single day we pick and chose we decide and it is a GOOD thing.
Not only do I believe the America has a good standard of people with which to make these Judgements and choices , I happen to believe the entire rest of the world believes it or learning very quickly they should .
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Rocky
And here I thought you could help me with the technical name of that figure of speech.
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Trefor Heywood
mj:
I think your aguments about cats getting married is patently ridiculous.
And homosexuals don't have the same rights regarding their relationships as heterosexuals do.
And discrimination, well what can I say. You appear to think that it is a good thing.
Just wait until somebody decides to discriminate against you and then see how it feels.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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def59
You are right tref about the relationship thing and maybe we can fix that without changing the whole culture.
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mj412
One of the sole bright spots for those with a traditional
view of marriage and family was Rep. Marie Parente,
D-Milford, one of the senior members of the House, who
chided fellow lawmakers for saying that it was improper to
debate the issue from a religious perspective. In fact,
stories about racism and sexism and all sorts of other
-isms, she said, only underscore the need for God.
"Men fail -- that's why we need to talk about God once in
awhile," she explained. "When I was a child, there was a
guy who went to school with me every day, and He never
failed me. But I'm not even supposed to say His name to
you in here."
Trefor
you may feel it is ridiculas my cats cant vote I feel they are being discriminated against.
You feel your hearing discrimination when same sex can not marry many feel the notion is ridiculas. who wins is in the vote. the people decide.
As far as your whine about how I would feel ?
I am a single woman in a male dominated society , it is white males who have the power and voice in this land so far and I live with the reality of this discrimination every single day . politics and big money is an almost exclusively male game with no woman allowed in America.
I am a minority .
I know how it feels I have lived with it my entire life.
Did you read the item I pasted from the editorial? Did ya really ? she is a woman she is a major player politicaly , she does not rely on men or "ism" she believes God should be involved and she speaks very highly of the one she "walked to school with everyday", but she isnt allowed to say HIS name when dealing with the fact all men will fail one another.
Get real Trefor on your discrimination speal, we all face it everyday . This will be set before the public vote and it will lose .
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mj412
oops
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J0nny Ling0
So, MJ, you say that you are single?
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mj412
Mr Lingo why would you and your wife need to know?
hhmmm? yes well my cat thinks he is a dominate male but who is he kidding?
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markomalley
Trefor:
ROTFLMAO!!!
:D-->
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Zixar
I thought the baggy shorts would be the giveaway, as the stereotype is that Europeans tend to go for the Speedo-type swimsuits... I could be wrong.
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markomalley
Trefor:
Well, I was not trying to imply that all of us Yanks are rednecks. My take on the situation is that most people in this country are, deep down inside, quite conservative, particularly with sex. Most of those who aren't are doing so out of some sort of rebellion -- many of those have an incredible amount of guilt (often deeply supressed). Then there are some who are "European" wannabees. They want to prove how "sophisticated" they are. Very few folks over here are truly liberated from their sexual hangups.
(BTW, I personally would fall in the conservative category, but having spent a decade living in Europe, I can see things from other points of view)
This is not to say that everybody in Europe is a total slut, but the fact of the matter is that there is a lot more laissez-faire attitude, even if one chooses personally not to participate.
Are we likely ever to change? Honestly, I really don't think there will ever be a fundamental change over here. I think that the changes in this country are tangential to the fundamental issue. We may, in some epochs, be "purer" that the Europeans. In others, we may be "badder." But, I think we will constantly be skirting the issue (no pun intended).
As far as "rearguard" actions...You, on the surface, are probably correct. But, the fundamental issue addressed above in my post have to change before the tension just below the surface will dissipate.
It goes from tolerance to acceptance to integration. The country right now is barely at the tolerance stage. It will take a lot to get to the acceptance stage. The integration stage, where you want to be, I, honestly, can't ever picture over here. The media isn't this country. The East Coast and the Left Coast are not this country. Flyover country is this country.
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J0nny Ling0
"Flyover Country". Hmmm, I like that term! I want to settle there someday..Oklahoma, Kansas, somewhere warm!
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Rocky
You want WARM?
When California falls in, I have some oceanfront property along what's now the Colorado River... hachacha!
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Tom Strange
Are A-Rod and Derek going to get married?
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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J0nny Ling0
Derek who?
And, I like that southern Colorado River. Swam in it once down in Needles, and it was nice and cold on a very hot day! Saw a damned Roadrunner (bird) there that day also. Ran along side my car!
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Trefor Heywood
mj:
You cannot really claim that women are a minority although I will agree with you that there is discrimination in many areas. I do not believe that that discrimination is right however any more than I believe that discrimination is right on the ground of sexual orientation.
I love cats too by the way. However a cat is not a citizen, they pay no taxes and cannot make human decisions. You are comparing chalk with cheese.
def:
Do you think that those who wish to preserve the culture, as you put it, are prepared to make such proposals in a proactive manner? Thanks for seeing the relationship point which is what I believe is the essential element of the debate.
zix:
It's more what the baggy shorts help to hide compared with what speedos are more likely to reveal...
:D-->
Mark:
You make some intelligent analyses. "Flyover country" is relatively sparsely populated, however compared with the east and west coasts. I wonder how it is that European culture and American culture managed to separate so much upon the issue of sex, especially considering how many Americans descend from people from Europe. I can only think that Americans tend to take religion more seriously than Europe, especially in certain areas of the USA. Things like the Scopes Monkey Trial and handling snakes in services would be harder to find here. There was even a programme on TV here last night how one woman in the US has introduced religion into dieting (and is doing very well out of it financially too thankyou).
There will also always be those who resist integration, you still have your white supremicist groups over there, but I believe that it will come to pass in some areas and that this will make a start.
Rocky:
I seem to remember that Lex Luthor had similar ideas about California in Superman the Movie!
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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