I will elaborate later, because I'm still recovering from that wretched surgery, and taking too many meds to express myself clearly tonight. Oh my, it's 4 a.m.! Geez, I'll be glad when this is all healed up! Pain sucks!
And Mike, dear ... It's nice to hear from you again. Sometimes I "love" your words, because they make me think (even if I usually end up disagreeing) - and I could say I "love" you, as a brother in Christ. But none of this is the same as my love for God. There must be a difference between the first and second commandments, don't you think?
Also, Mike, I've done tons of study on that word "Agape", which you mentioned in your first post on this thread. Just about every authority, including those recommended by TWI, defines "Agape" as unconditional love, which certainly eliminates any legalism, so let's not go there.
Sir Guess, your near-poetry is beautifully appropriate for the topic at hand.
Don't forget that Moses wrote Deut 6, the scripture Jesus quoted. Considering the relative scarcity of spirit upon the people of that time, God had to make it super explicit as to what He meant by loving Him. The verses that follow that First and Greatest Commandment which Jesus quoted make it plain as day how God wanted people to love Him, at least to start off with. I didn't write the book.
So, Mike, according to what you wrote, one cannot love God without knowing how to read, and then the bible must be "available" in your language. Hmmmm. And then reading the bible isn't really enough, you have to then get your hands on some scarce, not widely available books by an obsure Ohio preacher who passed away almost 20 years ago. -->
Those who CAN read are responsible to DO IT, not only for themselves, but for those who can't. ... like for very young children, blind people, the very aged, or the mentally incapacitated. I'm sure doing one's best is what God looks for.
Is someone was never taught to read, but has the capacity, then their hunger to know God will prompt them to learn to read. If not, then they will not enjoy the fullness of what is available to them. This is not unusual and is one way we all fall short of the glory of God. Failure to read is correctable if one?s hunger for the fullness is there.
In ancient Israel, they were required, as Deut.6 prescribes, to read and write God's Word all over their houses.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 14, 2004 at 13:01.]
"Another thing we was taught in the good old days is that Jesus Christ never came up with anything new. This may be a barb in the anti-plagiarists saddle they try to ignore or forget. Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament or God told him. He was not original in anything he said, only in how well he absorbed and obeyed what he was told."
Just for the record, reading a version of a translation of a modern reconstruction of ancient mis-copied fragments like KJV reading, is FINE for the beginner. It?s even necessary for the beginning student, and that?s why Dr had us do it for years.
I do advocate KJV reading for beginning students. Maybe even 10 or 20 years of it.
But we OLGs (older leader grads) don?t fall into that category at all. We?re not beginners and are ready to graduate to the vast improvements God worked to fix and augment the received texts.
But if we OLGs want the fullness, the power, all nine all the time, ability to do all that Jesus Christ did and greater, THEN we must go to those NOT so obscure PFAL writings.
As for the non-grad population at large out there, I?m convinced that their only hope to see the fullness is from our eventual success at reaching that fullness first. In the meantime I?m glad they work their KJVs and NIVs to the best of their ability. They may even have more rewards in store for themselves than many of us grads who have squandered the treasures we?ve been given. We will be held accountable for what we?ve done with what we?ve been given.
Once again, for the record, I?m thankful to God that He was able to work with people steeped in GREAT darkness who produced the early English translations and versions. They were a good, useful, and necessary start. Let?s let God be the judge of VPW and his walk, and dump all the crappy aspects that TWI was admittedly filled with, and move on to finally and fully utilize what God gave us via PFAL.
It was God's love that provided all that for us. Our response of love to Him should be to utilize what He worked to give us.
Oh, thou most Masterful Mike, how did we ever get any Blessings of God before you came along?
I guess God was completely unable, powerless.
Oh, thou most Masterful Mike, forgivest thou me, for I have seen the error of my ways, and I will now seek to spend the rest of my days groveling in thine shadow, which verily Shaketh! the Earth when thou movest. and I shall study PFAL to show myself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed of the legacy of docvic(praise be his name).
I understand. The same thing happens to me when my dandruff is stirred up.
It's not like I'm trying to do antagonize anyone, but it seems unavoidable in some respects. As things calm down in time and as you see that I'm not advocating returning to the crappy parts, then the details of what I say will be less lost in the shuffle.
If I were in your shoes, I very well may be missing more details and less apt to retract. I KNOW that I am not the great one here, but I know where he is.
I disagree Mike and others here will say as well...our lives are filled .... FILLED with Blessings ....for you to discount our families, our children, our homes, our joys ....the enormous blessings and benefits that have been bestowed in our lives by God is a rediculous lie.
I DEFY you to say that a single one of my precious children... the blessing of their continued good health...my beloved horses.... my treasured home...all of my cool toys (yes even my less than perfect spouse;-) ....can be considered blessings with a little *b* geeze what a spit in God`s face to say that he hasn`t been overwhelmingly good to us.
I am humbled to say that God has been, and continues to be good, overwhelmingly good to us even WITHOUT so much as even a GLANCE at your petty little writings in the last 15 years.
You speak lies Mike
[This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 14:02.]
No, I think you received what I said in a different light than I intended.
The blessings you mentioned are not trivial at all, but they are smaller than doing all the things that Jesus Christ did. The blessings you mentioned, as big as they are, are common among unbelievers too.
Another thing that puts the blessings you mentioned in their RELATIVE position below ?all nine all the time? is that children often grow up to rebel, or get hurt, or even die. With all nine, these limitations can be minimized.
I didn?t mean to put down the blessings with a small b at all. Since I have no children, I have LOTS of time to contemplate what a huge blessing I?ve missed there. I?m happy for you that you are blessed, and I also want to see you Blessed Bigger. Honest, that?s my heart on this.
Lol....smaller to you maybe...Shoot, if you don`t think it takes the operation of some (if not ALL) of those 9 to be aware of what 7 small children are doing at any given time of the day...or to be able to attempt to meet their needs on every level emotionally, physically and spiritualy.... to guid them into a productive happy adulthood....lol you COULD be mistaken.
The privelege of being allowed raise happy healthy children..... now THAT is the most awsome of blessings (with a capitol B) ... and is quite as satisfying and on par with things that Jesus did in THIS Mom`s book!
[This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 14:28.]
and schwaigers...THAT is how I love God and my neighbor....I endeavor to love and take care of any and all whom he sets in my path ....be they my children, critters...crazy uncles....if they are put in my path..I love em...n you know what? most folks realise that it is God that had worked it all out....and so invariably he gets the thanks.
Can`t tell you how many times I have been moved to give money or an extra vehicle a meal, maybe a phone call, or work and had the one recieving...... tearfull say that they had been praying and were so humbled that God had heard and given them an answere...I usually never even have to bring his name up...yet he gets the thanks....is that not the greatest witness?
[This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 15:05.]
"I love God, listen to me. You can be warm and fuzzy if you think like me." "I love God, listen to me. You can be warm and fuzzy if you think like me." "I love God, listen to me. You can be warm and fuzzy if you think like me."
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
Please stop misrepresenting my heart and my words. Dr will get what God says he deserves, not you. Meantime we have something much better to focus on. Why not let's do it?
By the way, for anybody who's interested, Hosea 4:6 ie "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" was wrenched out its context by Wierwille in PFAL to reinforce his gnostic belifs about the bible. Read the context. God's people are destroyed because of sin. Period. VPW seemed to have a "longsuit" in this area. His own organization was destroyed because he compromised and let sin reign in TWI.
Geeze, louise...it ain't rocket science. And Mike, I think Dot is representing your "heart" quite "accurately."
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Schwaigers
Excathedra,
You and I are on the same track.
I will elaborate later, because I'm still recovering from that wretched surgery, and taking too many meds to express myself clearly tonight. Oh my, it's 4 a.m.! Geez, I'll be glad when this is all healed up! Pain sucks!
And Mike, dear ... It's nice to hear from you again. Sometimes I "love" your words, because they make me think (even if I usually end up disagreeing) - and I could say I "love" you, as a brother in Christ. But none of this is the same as my love for God. There must be a difference between the first and second commandments, don't you think?
Also, Mike, I've done tons of study on that word "Agape", which you mentioned in your first post on this thread. Just about every authority, including those recommended by TWI, defines "Agape" as unconditional love, which certainly eliminates any legalism, so let's not go there.
Sir Guess, your near-poetry is beautifully appropriate for the topic at hand.
-Pat
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Mike
Pat,
Don't forget that Moses wrote Deut 6, the scripture Jesus quoted. Considering the relative scarcity of spirit upon the people of that time, God had to make it super explicit as to what He meant by loving Him. The verses that follow that First and Greatest Commandment which Jesus quoted make it plain as day how God wanted people to love Him, at least to start off with. I didn't write the book.
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ex10
So, Mike, according to what you wrote, one cannot love God without knowing how to read, and then the bible must be "available" in your language. Hmmmm. And then reading the bible isn't really enough, you have to then get your hands on some scarce, not widely available books by an obsure Ohio preacher who passed away almost 20 years ago.
-->
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Dot Matrix
ex10
LOL
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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Mike
ex10 and Dot,
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Those who CAN read are responsible to DO IT, not only for themselves, but for those who can't. ... like for very young children, blind people, the very aged, or the mentally incapacitated. I'm sure doing one's best is what God looks for.
Is someone was never taught to read, but has the capacity, then their hunger to know God will prompt them to learn to read. If not, then they will not enjoy the fullness of what is available to them. This is not unusual and is one way we all fall short of the glory of God. Failure to read is correctable if one?s hunger for the fullness is there.
In ancient Israel, they were required, as Deut.6 prescribes, to read and write God's Word all over their houses.
[This message was edited by Mike on January 14, 2004 at 13:01.]
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Cynic
Mike wrote,
"Another thing we was taught in the good old days is that Jesus Christ never came up with anything new. This may be a barb in the anti-plagiarists saddle they try to ignore or forget. Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament or God told him. He was not original in anything he said, only in how well he absorbed and obeyed what he was told."
*****
Scripture indicates otherwise:
Matthew 13:34-35
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Mike
Cynic,
You forgot to include John 5:19, 5:30, 7:17, 8:28, and 12:49.
In that passage of mine you quoted I said "Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament OR GOD TOLD HIM."
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Mike
Just for the record, reading a version of a translation of a modern reconstruction of ancient mis-copied fragments like KJV reading, is FINE for the beginner. It?s even necessary for the beginning student, and that?s why Dr had us do it for years.
I do advocate KJV reading for beginning students. Maybe even 10 or 20 years of it.
But we OLGs (older leader grads) don?t fall into that category at all. We?re not beginners and are ready to graduate to the vast improvements God worked to fix and augment the received texts.
But if we OLGs want the fullness, the power, all nine all the time, ability to do all that Jesus Christ did and greater, THEN we must go to those NOT so obscure PFAL writings.
As for the non-grad population at large out there, I?m convinced that their only hope to see the fullness is from our eventual success at reaching that fullness first. In the meantime I?m glad they work their KJVs and NIVs to the best of their ability. They may even have more rewards in store for themselves than many of us grads who have squandered the treasures we?ve been given. We will be held accountable for what we?ve done with what we?ve been given.
Once again, for the record, I?m thankful to God that He was able to work with people steeped in GREAT darkness who produced the early English translations and versions. They were a good, useful, and necessary start. Let?s let God be the judge of VPW and his walk, and dump all the crappy aspects that TWI was admittedly filled with, and move on to finally and fully utilize what God gave us via PFAL.
It was God's love that provided all that for us. Our response of love to Him should be to utilize what He worked to give us.
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Steve!
Oh, thou most Masterful Mike, how did we ever get any Blessings of God before you came along?
I guess God was completely unable, powerless.
Oh, thou most Masterful Mike, forgivest thou me, for I have seen the error of my ways, and I will now seek to spend the rest of my days groveling in thine shadow, which verily Shaketh! the Earth when thou movest. and I shall study PFAL to show myself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed of the legacy of docvic(praise be his name).
( * )
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Mike
How did we ever get any Blessings of God before PFAL came along?
We didn't.
We only got blesings, with a small B, and that was by God's grace, mercy, and even phenominal interventions.
The Blessings with a big B are still in store for those of us who decide to leave all the crap behind and copncentrate on the good that we were given.
I'm not asking you to look to me, or even to VPW, but to the writings he and we were given.
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Cynic
Mike wrote,
"In that passage of mine you quoted I said "Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament OR GOD TOLD HIM."
*****
So you did. I retract. I completely missed that.
(I'm need to quit posting from work to avoid making errors like that.)
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Mike
I understand. The same thing happens to me when my dandruff is stirred up.
It's not like I'm trying to do antagonize anyone, but it seems unavoidable in some respects. As things calm down in time and as you see that I'm not advocating returning to the crappy parts, then the details of what I say will be less lost in the shuffle.
If I were in your shoes, I very well may be missing more details and less apt to retract. I KNOW that I am not the great one here, but I know where he is.
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rascal
I disagree Mike and others here will say as well...our lives are filled .... FILLED with Blessings ....for you to discount our families, our children, our homes, our joys ....the enormous blessings and benefits that have been bestowed in our lives by God is a rediculous lie.
I DEFY you to say that a single one of my precious children... the blessing of their continued good health...my beloved horses.... my treasured home...all of my cool toys (yes even my less than perfect spouse;-) ....can be considered blessings with a little *b* geeze what a spit in God`s face to say that he hasn`t been overwhelmingly good to us.
I am humbled to say that God has been, and continues to be good, overwhelmingly good to us even WITHOUT so much as even a GLANCE at your petty little writings in the last 15 years.
You speak lies Mike
[This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 14:02.]
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Mike
No, I think you received what I said in a different light than I intended.
The blessings you mentioned are not trivial at all, but they are smaller than doing all the things that Jesus Christ did. The blessings you mentioned, as big as they are, are common among unbelievers too.
Another thing that puts the blessings you mentioned in their RELATIVE position below ?all nine all the time? is that children often grow up to rebel, or get hurt, or even die. With all nine, these limitations can be minimized.
I didn?t mean to put down the blessings with a small b at all. Since I have no children, I have LOTS of time to contemplate what a huge blessing I?ve missed there. I?m happy for you that you are blessed, and I also want to see you Blessed Bigger. Honest, that?s my heart on this.
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rascal
Lol....smaller to you maybe...Shoot, if you don`t think it takes the operation of some (if not ALL) of those 9 to be aware of what 7 small children are doing at any given time of the day...or to be able to attempt to meet their needs on every level emotionally, physically and spiritualy.... to guid them into a productive happy adulthood....lol you COULD be mistaken.
The privelege of being allowed raise happy healthy children..... now THAT is the most awsome of blessings (with a capitol B) ... and is quite as satisfying and on par with things that Jesus did in THIS Mom`s book!
[This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 14:28.]
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rascal
and schwaigers...THAT is how I love God and my neighbor....I endeavor to love and take care of any and all whom he sets in my path ....be they my children, critters...crazy uncles....if they are put in my path..I love em...n you know what? most folks realise that it is God that had worked it all out....and so invariably he gets the thanks.
Can`t tell you how many times I have been moved to give money or an extra vehicle a meal, maybe a phone call, or work and had the one recieving...... tearfull say that they had been praying and were so humbled that God had heard and given them an answere...I usually never even have to bring his name up...yet he gets the thanks....is that not the greatest witness?
[This message was edited by rascal on January 14, 2004 at 15:05.]
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Steve!
Mike, it's obvious that you were given an overabundance of brains, since my very computer shakes every time you touch a keyboard.
I am not worthy to do your laundry, much less to sit in your presence here on Greasespot.
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valerie52
The 10 commandments in NO way are to be compaired to the "colaterals" that vpw did.
That is basically breaking the first commandment in itself.
The first one says, "I am YHWH your Elohim have no other before my face.
The children of Israel were in the habit sometimes of following after strange gods or mighty ones.
valerie52
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Dot Matrix
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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Dot Matrix
"I love God, listen to me. You can be warm and fuzzy if you think like me." "I love God, listen to me. You can be warm and fuzzy if you think like me." "I love God, listen to me. You can be warm and fuzzy if you think like me."
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
"Read your colaterals" "Read your colaterals"
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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Dot Matrix
Val
Amen!
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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Dot Matrix
Mike
you said "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
I agree. But that is where it ends for your hub of knowledge is the all knowing cult master and mine is God.
Even Weiwille acknowledged it was not from reading "Time magazine". This verse does not mean the colateral materials written by a farm pevert.
Life is not suppose to dangle at the end of a man's folly. Or by every word that came out of Weirwille's mouth!
"The blue book says, the green book says, the orange book says...."
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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Mike
Dot,
Please stop misrepresenting my heart and my words. Dr will get what God says he deserves, not you. Meantime we have something much better to focus on. Why not let's do it?
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ex10
LOL Steve!
By the way, for anybody who's interested, Hosea 4:6 ie "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" was wrenched out its context by Wierwille in PFAL to reinforce his gnostic belifs about the bible. Read the context. God's people are destroyed because of sin. Period. VPW seemed to have a "longsuit" in this area. His own organization was destroyed because he compromised and let sin reign in TWI.
Geeze, louise...it ain't rocket science. And Mike, I think Dot is representing your "heart" quite "accurately."
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