What I have found is the quiet time I give to God and the prayer I have with him has helped me to love him with all my heart. I sing to him as well.
I invite him into the steps I take during the day.
One day, I was trying to think of the person who has been the best friend I have ever had.... It all went back to God. He has been there when I was MAD at him. He was there when I did not glorify him, he has been there when I cried, when I was sick or broke.
I realized he was my best friend. I tell him that all the time. And when I am seduced into thinking of doing something questionable -- I remember it would not glorify God so I try and think of what would bring glory him?
I mean like stupid things, at the market when it is raining and I do not want to put my cart in the proper place. I really want to leave it "there". I think of the car it may roll into or the person who would be able to park there if not for the cart I left... Then, I think what would Jesus do? And I walk the dang cart back.
Once, I brought home my groceries and realized they did not charge me for my coffee. I drove back and tried to pay for it. It threw the cashier into "weirdness" she called over the manager. They said, "You want to pay for something that is not here?" Then, they told me it made them feel good about humanity. I told them to keep it and not pay for it would not have been right.
Stuff like that. It can be larger things as well, like turning the light on the darkness so that others may see. That includes turning the light on myself
Why? What is going on in your heart and your life? I am interested. There are many days I feel like I have not had my best day nor have I done my best to keep God first. Like when I am under stress I do like a good four letter word and I KNOW that cannot bring God glory.
I dunno Pat. That is a huge question and as I answer it, I feel very small in my attempts to do the first commandment. I fall short.
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
Great question! (At first I thought it was going to be a thread about how someone keeps away from idolotry. Glad it wasn't!) I've often wondered about this, too. I mean, seriously, if one is talking about the Creator, what can one do to show love to such a being?
From all of my looking into other religions, I have found that most agree on how to do this. The bible puts it pretty simply, so I'll use the bible here.
quote:John 21:15-17 Revised Standard Version:
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.
John 15:11-13, 17 Revised Standard Version:
11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 17 This I command you, to love one another.
So, in answer to the question, I show my love for the One by taking care of people to the best of my ability.
I think I can help you keep this in the ?About the Way? forum with what I have to say. It appears that Dot?s and CW?s posts both drift into the Second Commandment category, which is fine for earthly activities, but as you say, what about the First Commandment?
I agree with you that it was the case that TWI-2 (and some in late TWI-1) taught the idea of loving God by loving leadership. It?s been well pointed out here that these Roman Catholic ideas of apostolic succession and papal infallibility were firmly entrenched in TWI in these later years, and may still be in effect with TWI-3 today. Even still, the balanced the balanced principle of respecting leadership, although a good Biblical principle, is more on the horizontal axis, and you are asking for the vertical.
My mission is to point out that there are many things that have slipped by us that we need reminding on. This ?How to Love God? idea is right in line with that.
We were taught that love (agape) is whatever God says it is in His Word.
It?s not the common notions of phileo or eros or ?smotherlove? as they were sometimes characterized by. If you want to know what God says agape is, or HOW to do it, how to love HIM, we must go to his Word.
Another thing we was taught in the good old days is that Jesus Christ never came up with anything new. This may be a barb in the anti-plagiarists saddle they try to ignore or forget. Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament or God told him. He was not original in anything he said, only in how well he absorbed and obeyed what he was told.
Putting these two thoughts together (God?s Word defines love and Jesus was a plagiarist) wouldn?t it be logical to look for where Jesus got that greatest commandment from? Way back in those good old days I did just that and found the place. Guess what! The context of the passage Jesus was quoting answers your question. Let?s go and study it out together.
But first, please allow me to digress here, because I know what some of you are thinking.
It's very obvious that some types of study may very well miss the point of loving God. Some extreme examples might be how it was reported that Nikita Kruschev had memorized the gospel text, yet kept up many of Stalin's murderous polices. Another example might be someone who devotes his life to the definitive study of weights and measures of the Bible, yet has no belief or love for God.
Then there's the alternative method of missing the true love of God, by conjuring up a wealth of positive emotions regarding God, yet ignoring what God says, thinking that by avoiding study these emotions are pure and untainted by secular scholasticism. This type of person often quotes things like "the letter killeth" or "knowledge puffeth up" to support their determined ignorance.
Then there's the God-prescribed-method of loving God first, and then continuing on to loving neighbors. This God-prescribed-method must start with a pure love for God, but how is that achieved?
Let?s now look at where Jesus got his answer for the greatest commandment to love God with all your heart? Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy Chapter Six.
Deut 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy might.
If one wants to know HOW to do this just look at the next verses.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children,
and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house,
and when thou walkest by the way,
and when thou liest down,
and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand,
and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house,
and on thy gates.
There are nine uses of the word "and" here, which is a figure of speech for emphasis. These are the HOW's of loving God: become a fanatic... a fan of God's Word. Outside of this "extremist" behavior is the realm of the counterfeit. This is how God prescribes us to love Him.
In verse 6 it says "these words." It doesn't say men's religious words, it says "these words" meaning the exact words God gave Moses at that time. It doesn't say translations of "these words" and it doesn't say versions of translations of "these words."
Now for us, living at this time, we don't have the exact words that God issued in ancient times. They've been lost. If we want to love God we must go to the words He gave US in this day and age. That doesn't mean words that some committee of translators serve up to us, as in a modern English "Bible." Those words, such as the KJV, are not really the Bible, they are men's opinions of what the Bible used to say... approximately. And that's exactly what got Eve into trouble: inexact approximations.
But God has solved this problem for us in how He contacted Dr in 1942 and worked with him and his staff for 40 plus years. If we want to love God we must go to the exact words God taught Dr. Wierwille and Dr. Wierwille taught us. We must then become a raving fan of these exact words and master them by saturating our lives with them. Remember the nine "ands."
This is exactly what Dr's final instructions to us were: to master the collaterals. You can't love God without mastering the collateral books to the PFAL class. Any knowledgeable grad who resists this commandment of God is not REALLY loving God. It's just a counterfeit.
Love God = Master the PFAL Collaterals.
It's ONLY by mastering the collaterals that we are able to really, FULLY love God. Deuteronomy Chapter Six instructed Israel HOW to love God by saturating their lives with His written Word. Mastering the collaterals means we need to saturate our lives with them (and ONLY them) like Deut 6 prescribes.
Jesus taught us clearly how to do this, but the key to understanding it...if it is to be understood is to read what he is quoted as saying. If you read it through TWI colored glasses it will give a different meaning. If you read it with any preconceived ideas of it's interpretation you will only understand that interpretation.
To read it again for the first time...to consider the reality of what is written to who he was talking to at the time...can possibly strip away nearly all you were taught...
Oh, to be lost and confused! A glorious day. To know nothing and yet be completely content in God's love. No judgement no rules only love...is it possible with all the brain functions we use? or is a lobotomy required?
If we follow the commandment to love God...can we continue to pray for anything but "thy will be done?" How many times have we prayed for something we so desired, convincing ourselves it would somehow benefit our "walk" with God, only to find it became a hinderance down the road? Any specific prayer for anything thing, usually material...sometimes for God to work in another, IS FOLLY! To suggest that you know what you need better than God to give you what you need in lessons, experiences, abundance or lack is not keeping the first commandment.
To love God with all your heart, etc....also requires you to trust God with all your heart, etc.
Sometimes I so desire to return to the days of believing = receiving....to the I'm God's best and I deserve God's best...but, I can not....for I have put away the childish things of Santa, and God's cookie jar and all the magic poured into to a God out there, set on His throne to make my life a fairy tale come true....
and you know what? Even when it's bad...it's good...
Jesus said....the kingdom of God is within you...I can't give you the map to that place...it is your journey...no book can give you the map...books may give you things to look for on the way, but ultimately it is God who will lead you home...
Love God...love others....all you need is love! AND GUTS!
I?m going to reiterate my earlier post in a nutshell.
To love any human being we must carefully LISTEN to the words of that person.
This is pretty logical and basic. We pay attention to our loved one?s words, and we don?t substitute our own words in there, or anyone else?s. If we love them we love their words. Ditto for loving God.
really? so when Dr. ripped you up one side and down the other in front of your peers...you loved those words? Can you quote them for us now, Mike? I mean if you loved them and him so much, they should be fresh in your memory.
God loves me with only pure love. He will not belittle me or hurt me. I do not love the words of those who do not build me up, but I love many who are incapable to do otherwise...with their words...
This is pretty logical and basic. We pay attention to our loved one?s words, and we don?t substitute our own words in there, or anyone else?s. If we love them we love their words. Ditto for loving God.
Sorry Mike,
This is the kind of clap-trap that give believers a bad name (I know because I was one). They take an ordinary word or conecept and by analogy apply it in a spiritual context. In doing so they slightly adapt the definition so the result they want to support their belief comes out the back end and looks "pretty logical and basic"
Love is a very broad term. There are many ways and shades and aspects of love. It's not always true that if we love them we love their words. Some people love people inspite of their words. Others love people who have no words (babies for instance).
The next step in your basic logic will be (I presume) to say that you know what God's words look like or where they can be found. This is a slight twisting of the idea that we normally think of as "words" because all the words we know come from people. You have to make a leap of faith (not logic) to say that a word you see and hear coming a person is actually from God.
Go for it dude. Believe all you want. Just don't expect me to accept that it's logical or basic. It's just what you want to believe.
That incident, although it was uncomfortable at the time, it was not nearly as unbearable as you contend. I was well practiced at controlling my ego. Nowadays I?m inclined to think he did the right thing in reading me the riot act. It got my attention in a most memorable way, and I have learned much from it.
With a loved one, even the angry or inaccurate words they say are carefully listened to. Feedback from a loved one, even when it?s uncomfortable, is treated as important, and ego takes a second seat.
****
My3cents,
Part of your objection is answered immediately above.
The other part you mentioned is accurate: factual physical analogy cannot reliably derive or prove spiritual truths. But that?s not what I did. My first post on this thread extracts the truth of loving a loved one?s words directly from Deut.6.
Then my second post ILLUSTRATES the same truth, already obtained legitimately, with an analogy.
Not to be trite or anything, but the bible does say that "to love God, is to obey is his commandments." I John anyone?
I think Dot's first post beautifully illustrates "obedience to his commandments."
Also, I think that making God, and his son Jesus the object of my worship, both in private as well as publicly is a really cool way of expressing my love for Him. My own personal worship experience in TWI was really disappointing. But thank goodness for church! where worship is alive and well. :D-->
The point of knowing the bible is so that we can become like Jesus. Our knowledge must bring us into a personal relationship with him as our Lord and Saviour. Love implies relationship. I can't "love" a book the same way I "love" a person. I can't have "fellowship" or "relationship" with a book. To love the Lord Jesus Christ is to love God.
Part of that loving relationship is to do what He (Jesus) says. We are his body after all, and he is the head. As we follow his instructions, we function as he desires us to as members of his body. So what all this means to me is that another way to love God is to function as He and Jesus have designed me to. To fullfill my own personal "calling" so to speak. To carry out God's specific will for me.
I remember a big emphasis on "Practice the presence of G-d". Focusing on the mindset that Our Heavenly Father is walking with us, and among us. Talk with Him daily and do all things in His presence. That that was worshipping Him.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
I?d add that in order to perceive that presence, and be sure it?s the presence of the True God and not a counterfeit, we must know His Word accurately.
****
Commenting on the earlier posts:
In order to obey God?s commandments, other than the First, we must first KNOW them accurately.
In order to become like Jesus, who is the Word made flesh, we need to KNOW that Word he became, and not a religious or Hollywood version of him.
Many people know what it?s like to love each other at a distance through love letters and phone calls.
We most certainly can love a book, if we know the True Author was God, and that He is right there with us as we read it. I have a wonderful relationship with the books that saved my life.
I totally agree with you all that acting on the contents of that book is essential to tapping in to the fullness of that relationship the book facilitates. To the extent that we miss the mark of His Word, we suffer loss. That was true for David and Dr as much as for us.
On the road to Emmaus, Jesus FIRST expounded the scriptures to them, and THEN showed them his flesh.
If Jesus had done it the other way around they would have been so distracted by his flesh that their hearts would not have burned with love for God from his teaching. Likewise for us, God has hidden Christ, or caused him to be ?absent? and told us to relatively ignore the flesh Christ (II Cor.5:16) so that we can get it through READING (Eph 3:4) the revelations Jesus Christ gave Paul. This is how we avoid the counterfeit jesus spirits that are very capable of giving lots of gushy feelings while slowly and subtly diverting us away from the Father.
By reading the books God gave us we can become one with the object of our love, God and His Son. This is what forming Christ within is. We get to know Jesus the way an actor gets to know the character he plays every night on stage. We?re his understudy, taking his place on this earthly stage while he?s absent from it. When he appears we who have ?become? him will be able recognize him. We?re on that same Road to Emmaus and it?s available to have our hearts burn within us with love for God, His Word in written form, and His Word made flesh.
I think to love God with all your heart, you have to want to do it. Think of all the ways we use the word love.
I love my spouse.
I love my kids.
I love my pets.
I love tomatoes.
I love ice cream.
I love Grateful Dead music.
I love watching sports.
The lists for all of us are endless, but the common denominator in all love is desire. The love manifests itself in different ways but the will to love has got to be there. Bonnie Raitt's poignant line..."I can't make you love me if you don't; I can't make your heart feel something it won't" God can't either. We have to want to; He made us that way.
Speaking in tongues itself is not love, but it helps me to love God if I want to. On the other hand, maybe right now I don't want to love God and I only speak in tongues to go through the motions of being a good wayfer. Nobody loves God 24/7 except JC and it was tough sometimes. He had to work hard to love God in the garden when he sweat blood. He proved it could be done, but sometimes honestly we don't want to love God cause we're too busy with our lives in this distracting world.
Studying/reading the word is not love, but it helps me love God if I want to. Dot said...
What I have found is the quiet time I give to God and the prayer I have with him has helped me to love him with all my heart. I sing to him as well.
I invite him into the steps I take during the day.
We all need things that will help us love God. I sure haven't mastered it. I guess when I want to love God, pressure or not, I tend to SIT and just pour out my heart to him with the understanding, too. After doing that for awhile, whatever follows is clearer.
[This message was edited by johniam on January 13, 2004 at 22:16.]
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Good topic Pat!
What I have found is the quiet time I give to God and the prayer I have with him has helped me to love him with all my heart. I sing to him as well.
I invite him into the steps I take during the day.
One day, I was trying to think of the person who has been the best friend I have ever had.... It all went back to God. He has been there when I was MAD at him. He was there when I did not glorify him, he has been there when I cried, when I was sick or broke.
I realized he was my best friend. I tell him that all the time. And when I am seduced into thinking of doing something questionable -- I remember it would not glorify God so I try and think of what would bring glory him?
I mean like stupid things, at the market when it is raining and I do not want to put my cart in the proper place. I really want to leave it "there". I think of the car it may roll into or the person who would be able to park there if not for the cart I left... Then, I think what would Jesus do? And I walk the dang cart back.
Once, I brought home my groceries and realized they did not charge me for my coffee. I drove back and tried to pay for it. It threw the cashier into "weirdness" she called over the manager. They said, "You want to pay for something that is not here?" Then, they told me it made them feel good about humanity. I told them to keep it and not pay for it would not have been right.
Stuff like that. It can be larger things as well, like turning the light on the darkness so that others may see. That includes turning the light on myself
Why? What is going on in your heart and your life? I am interested. There are many days I feel like I have not had my best day nor have I done my best to keep God first. Like when I am under stress I do like a good four letter word and I KNOW that cannot bring God glory.
I dunno Pat. That is a huge question and as I answer it, I feel very small in my attempts to do the first commandment. I fall short.
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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CoolWaters
Great question! (At first I thought it was going to be a thread about how someone keeps away from idolotry. Glad it wasn't!) I've often wondered about this, too. I mean, seriously, if one is talking about the Creator, what can one do to show love to such a being?
From all of my looking into other religions, I have found that most agree on how to do this. The bible puts it pretty simply, so I'll use the bible here.
So, in answer to the question, I show my love for the One by taking care of people to the best of my ability.
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Mike
Pat,
I think I can help you keep this in the ?About the Way? forum with what I have to say. It appears that Dot?s and CW?s posts both drift into the Second Commandment category, which is fine for earthly activities, but as you say, what about the First Commandment?
I agree with you that it was the case that TWI-2 (and some in late TWI-1) taught the idea of loving God by loving leadership. It?s been well pointed out here that these Roman Catholic ideas of apostolic succession and papal infallibility were firmly entrenched in TWI in these later years, and may still be in effect with TWI-3 today. Even still, the balanced the balanced principle of respecting leadership, although a good Biblical principle, is more on the horizontal axis, and you are asking for the vertical.
My mission is to point out that there are many things that have slipped by us that we need reminding on. This ?How to Love God? idea is right in line with that.
We were taught that love (agape) is whatever God says it is in His Word.
It?s not the common notions of phileo or eros or ?smotherlove? as they were sometimes characterized by. If you want to know what God says agape is, or HOW to do it, how to love HIM, we must go to his Word.
Another thing we was taught in the good old days is that Jesus Christ never came up with anything new. This may be a barb in the anti-plagiarists saddle they try to ignore or forget. Everything Jesus said was either in the Old Testament or God told him. He was not original in anything he said, only in how well he absorbed and obeyed what he was told.
Putting these two thoughts together (God?s Word defines love and Jesus was a plagiarist) wouldn?t it be logical to look for where Jesus got that greatest commandment from? Way back in those good old days I did just that and found the place. Guess what! The context of the passage Jesus was quoting answers your question. Let?s go and study it out together.
But first, please allow me to digress here, because I know what some of you are thinking.
It's very obvious that some types of study may very well miss the point of loving God. Some extreme examples might be how it was reported that Nikita Kruschev had memorized the gospel text, yet kept up many of Stalin's murderous polices. Another example might be someone who devotes his life to the definitive study of weights and measures of the Bible, yet has no belief or love for God.
Then there's the alternative method of missing the true love of God, by conjuring up a wealth of positive emotions regarding God, yet ignoring what God says, thinking that by avoiding study these emotions are pure and untainted by secular scholasticism. This type of person often quotes things like "the letter killeth" or "knowledge puffeth up" to support their determined ignorance.
Then there's the God-prescribed-method of loving God first, and then continuing on to loving neighbors. This God-prescribed-method must start with a pure love for God, but how is that achieved?
Let?s now look at where Jesus got his answer for the greatest commandment to love God with all your heart? Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy Chapter Six.
Deut 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy might.
If one wants to know HOW to do this just look at the next verses.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children,
and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house,
and when thou walkest by the way,
and when thou liest down,
and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand,
and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house,
and on thy gates.
There are nine uses of the word "and" here, which is a figure of speech for emphasis. These are the HOW's of loving God: become a fanatic... a fan of God's Word. Outside of this "extremist" behavior is the realm of the counterfeit. This is how God prescribes us to love Him.
In verse 6 it says "these words." It doesn't say men's religious words, it says "these words" meaning the exact words God gave Moses at that time. It doesn't say translations of "these words" and it doesn't say versions of translations of "these words."
Now for us, living at this time, we don't have the exact words that God issued in ancient times. They've been lost. If we want to love God we must go to the words He gave US in this day and age. That doesn't mean words that some committee of translators serve up to us, as in a modern English "Bible." Those words, such as the KJV, are not really the Bible, they are men's opinions of what the Bible used to say... approximately. And that's exactly what got Eve into trouble: inexact approximations.
But God has solved this problem for us in how He contacted Dr in 1942 and worked with him and his staff for 40 plus years. If we want to love God we must go to the exact words God taught Dr. Wierwille and Dr. Wierwille taught us. We must then become a raving fan of these exact words and master them by saturating our lives with them. Remember the nine "ands."
This is exactly what Dr's final instructions to us were: to master the collaterals. You can't love God without mastering the collateral books to the PFAL class. Any knowledgeable grad who resists this commandment of God is not REALLY loving God. It's just a counterfeit.
Love God = Master the PFAL Collaterals.
It's ONLY by mastering the collaterals that we are able to really, FULLY love God. Deuteronomy Chapter Six instructed Israel HOW to love God by saturating their lives with His written Word. Mastering the collaterals means we need to saturate our lives with them (and ONLY them) like Deut 6 prescribes.
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sirguessalot
True love sweeps you away.
Overwhelms you.
Transforms you.
Wonderfully.
If we have never had it, we may not know what it is.
But we know for F-ing sure what it isn't.
And that we don't have it.
And being burned on love is the worst burn there is.
And this includes the love of God.
Our resistance to true love IS the struggle with the devil.
Our efforts to control love, and capture love, possess love, can be a strangling vine. No fruit.
When we stop reaching for love, the devil has won.
When we reach love, "the devil" is dethroned, and transformed.
To truly "let go and let God" is painful for those without love.
And we truly possess nothing of ourselves anyway.
Not an atom of it.
That which we think we possess, in fact possesses us.
Like a kid with a porno mag who thinks he is in control of "her."
So, once again, loves sweeps us away.
Even if its love for paper/wood products.
But God never goes away or stops twinkling or stops humming that tune.
Oh yeah...how do I do the first?
I rarely keep the first commandment myself.
But when I do, I seem to have to do it differently every time.
Oops.
People.
I'm posting from the gallery.
I gotta go.
Love,
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on January 13, 2004 at 13:24.]
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rascal
Control...*like a kid with a porno mag* seems to be kindda in the same catagory of *mastering* the collaterals no ??? LMAO
Too true....Once real love has been experienced....the former is but a pathetic shadow of the reality.
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sirguessalot
Pathetic shadow?
Or beautiful seed?
(I know, english sucks sometimes).
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sirguessalot
BTW - Thank you, Pat, for starting this thread.
The responses are all wonder-full.
Gotta love the subject, I guess.
May I add.
I think its often easier to Love God on accident than it is to carve it into wood or stone.
We've all been doing it, in pieces, all our lives, even in those little ways Dot mentioned. Not a bird falls to the ground without God's attention.
Although the complete love is what we seek.
Even if it takes all our lives.
Something to bind it all together, including ourselves.
Expressed Love is only omni-anything to the degree we can leave ourselves behind without pain or fear and walk in our brother's and sister's shoes.
Addiction to me-first is the opposite of love, because true self is the reward of love.
Love is first a poem, then a science.
Love cannot be hidden, destroyed, protected.
And obviously, there are no limits to the ways of expressing it.
Or understanding it. Or being nourished by it. Or avoiding it.
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karmicdebt
Jesus taught us clearly how to do this, but the key to understanding it...if it is to be understood is to read what he is quoted as saying. If you read it through TWI colored glasses it will give a different meaning. If you read it with any preconceived ideas of it's interpretation you will only understand that interpretation.
To read it again for the first time...to consider the reality of what is written to who he was talking to at the time...can possibly strip away nearly all you were taught...
Oh, to be lost and confused! A glorious day. To know nothing and yet be completely content in God's love. No judgement no rules only love...is it possible with all the brain functions we use? or is a lobotomy required?
If we follow the commandment to love God...can we continue to pray for anything but "thy will be done?" How many times have we prayed for something we so desired, convincing ourselves it would somehow benefit our "walk" with God, only to find it became a hinderance down the road? Any specific prayer for anything thing, usually material...sometimes for God to work in another, IS FOLLY! To suggest that you know what you need better than God to give you what you need in lessons, experiences, abundance or lack is not keeping the first commandment.
To love God with all your heart, etc....also requires you to trust God with all your heart, etc.
Sometimes I so desire to return to the days of believing = receiving....to the I'm God's best and I deserve God's best...but, I can not....for I have put away the childish things of Santa, and God's cookie jar and all the magic poured into to a God out there, set on His throne to make my life a fairy tale come true....
and you know what? Even when it's bad...it's good...
Jesus said....the kingdom of God is within you...I can't give you the map to that place...it is your journey...no book can give you the map...books may give you things to look for on the way, but ultimately it is God who will lead you home...
Love God...love others....all you need is love! AND GUTS!
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Mike
I?m going to reiterate my earlier post in a nutshell.
To love any human being we must carefully LISTEN to the words of that person.
This is pretty logical and basic. We pay attention to our loved one?s words, and we don?t substitute our own words in there, or anyone else?s. If we love them we love their words. Ditto for loving God.
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karmicdebt
really? so when Dr. ripped you up one side and down the other in front of your peers...you loved those words? Can you quote them for us now, Mike? I mean if you loved them and him so much, they should be fresh in your memory.
God loves me with only pure love. He will not belittle me or hurt me. I do not love the words of those who do not build me up, but I love many who are incapable to do otherwise...with their words...
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oldiesman
Christians Continue To Believe The Preposterous
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sirguessalot
Nice reiteration, Mike.
In a nutshell or out.
;)-->
Sing it sister Karmic!
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My3Cents
This is the kind of clap-trap that give believers a bad name (I know because I was one). They take an ordinary word or conecept and by analogy apply it in a spiritual context. In doing so they slightly adapt the definition so the result they want to support their belief comes out the back end and looks "pretty logical and basic"
Love is a very broad term. There are many ways and shades and aspects of love. It's not always true that if we love them we love their words. Some people love people inspite of their words. Others love people who have no words (babies for instance).
The next step in your basic logic will be (I presume) to say that you know what God's words look like or where they can be found. This is a slight twisting of the idea that we normally think of as "words" because all the words we know come from people. You have to make a leap of faith (not logic) to say that a word you see and hear coming a person is actually from God.
Go for it dude. Believe all you want. Just don't expect me to accept that it's logical or basic. It's just what you want to believe.
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Mike
Thanks sir G.
****
karmicdebt,
That incident, although it was uncomfortable at the time, it was not nearly as unbearable as you contend. I was well practiced at controlling my ego. Nowadays I?m inclined to think he did the right thing in reading me the riot act. It got my attention in a most memorable way, and I have learned much from it.
With a loved one, even the angry or inaccurate words they say are carefully listened to. Feedback from a loved one, even when it?s uncomfortable, is treated as important, and ego takes a second seat.
****
My3cents,
Part of your objection is answered immediately above.
The other part you mentioned is accurate: factual physical analogy cannot reliably derive or prove spiritual truths. But that?s not what I did. My first post on this thread extracts the truth of loving a loved one?s words directly from Deut.6.
Then my second post ILLUSTRATES the same truth, already obtained legitimately, with an analogy.
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sirguessalot
Mike, my compliment to you was for the slick CYA. Sorry for the confusion.
It seems clear to me that many of us still haven't learned what we needed to from those kinds of incidents.
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Dot Matrix
...my earlier post in a nutshell.
Wow, we agree! Your words do come in a nut shell!
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
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ex10
Not to be trite or anything, but the bible does say that "to love God, is to obey is his commandments." I John anyone?
I think Dot's first post beautifully illustrates "obedience to his commandments."
Also, I think that making God, and his son Jesus the object of my worship, both in private as well as publicly is a really cool way of expressing my love for Him. My own personal worship experience in TWI was really disappointing. But thank goodness for church! where worship is alive and well.
:D-->
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ex10
Oh yeah, and another thing,
:D-->
The point of knowing the bible is so that we can become like Jesus. Our knowledge must bring us into a personal relationship with him as our Lord and Saviour. Love implies relationship. I can't "love" a book the same way I "love" a person. I can't have "fellowship" or "relationship" with a book. To love the Lord Jesus Christ is to love God.
Part of that loving relationship is to do what He (Jesus) says. We are his body after all, and he is the head. As we follow his instructions, we function as he desires us to as members of his body. So what all this means to me is that another way to love God is to function as He and Jesus have designed me to. To fullfill my own personal "calling" so to speak. To carry out God's specific will for me.
And that's my nutshell.
:D-->
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Galen
I remember a big emphasis on "Practice the presence of G-d". Focusing on the mindset that Our Heavenly Father is walking with us, and among us. Talk with Him daily and do all things in His presence. That that was worshipping Him.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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Mike
Galen,
I?d add that in order to perceive that presence, and be sure it?s the presence of the True God and not a counterfeit, we must know His Word accurately.
****
Commenting on the earlier posts:
In order to obey God?s commandments, other than the First, we must first KNOW them accurately.
In order to become like Jesus, who is the Word made flesh, we need to KNOW that Word he became, and not a religious or Hollywood version of him.
Many people know what it?s like to love each other at a distance through love letters and phone calls.
We most certainly can love a book, if we know the True Author was God, and that He is right there with us as we read it. I have a wonderful relationship with the books that saved my life.
I totally agree with you all that acting on the contents of that book is essential to tapping in to the fullness of that relationship the book facilitates. To the extent that we miss the mark of His Word, we suffer loss. That was true for David and Dr as much as for us.
On the road to Emmaus, Jesus FIRST expounded the scriptures to them, and THEN showed them his flesh.
If Jesus had done it the other way around they would have been so distracted by his flesh that their hearts would not have burned with love for God from his teaching. Likewise for us, God has hidden Christ, or caused him to be ?absent? and told us to relatively ignore the flesh Christ (II Cor.5:16) so that we can get it through READING (Eph 3:4) the revelations Jesus Christ gave Paul. This is how we avoid the counterfeit jesus spirits that are very capable of giving lots of gushy feelings while slowly and subtly diverting us away from the Father.
By reading the books God gave us we can become one with the object of our love, God and His Son. This is what forming Christ within is. We get to know Jesus the way an actor gets to know the character he plays every night on stage. We?re his understudy, taking his place on this earthly stage while he?s absent from it. When he appears we who have ?become? him will be able recognize him. We?re on that same Road to Emmaus and it?s available to have our hearts burn within us with love for God, His Word in written form, and His Word made flesh.
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excathedra
have only glanced briefly thru this thread
if there are formulas here, kiss my a.s.s.
and actually if there is a lot of bible here, i feel the same
i know what it means to love at least in my little stupid world. so i figure GOD gets me
that's all i gotta' say at this point
ps. the neighbor (fellow man) is the easy part
the "self" can be difficult
but see previous statment about god
?
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ex10
Aye chihuahua.
-->
Good thing I was born in 20th century America then I guess.
(Not talkin to you, sis
:)--> )
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johniam
I think to love God with all your heart, you have to want to do it. Think of all the ways we use the word love.
I love my spouse.
I love my kids.
I love my pets.
I love tomatoes.
I love ice cream.
I love Grateful Dead music.
I love watching sports.
The lists for all of us are endless, but the common denominator in all love is desire. The love manifests itself in different ways but the will to love has got to be there. Bonnie Raitt's poignant line..."I can't make you love me if you don't; I can't make your heart feel something it won't" God can't either. We have to want to; He made us that way.
Speaking in tongues itself is not love, but it helps me to love God if I want to. On the other hand, maybe right now I don't want to love God and I only speak in tongues to go through the motions of being a good wayfer. Nobody loves God 24/7 except JC and it was tough sometimes. He had to work hard to love God in the garden when he sweat blood. He proved it could be done, but sometimes honestly we don't want to love God cause we're too busy with our lives in this distracting world.
Studying/reading the word is not love, but it helps me love God if I want to. Dot said...
What I have found is the quiet time I give to God and the prayer I have with him has helped me to love him with all my heart. I sing to him as well.
I invite him into the steps I take during the day.
We all need things that will help us love God. I sure haven't mastered it. I guess when I want to love God, pressure or not, I tend to SIT and just pour out my heart to him with the understanding, too. After doing that for awhile, whatever follows is clearer.
[This message was edited by johniam on January 13, 2004 at 22:16.]
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year2027
Hi All
I Love God by spending time with him one on one
We talk every day I write him love notes
I put God first when ever I can find a way no matter what others think
Like putting God first on post, Emails, and anything elst I might write or type on
But I guess the way I do most is one on one talks
I ask God how he is doing and I do my best to live by his word
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