It seems to me, these are forms of mostly unconcious (thankfully) but systematic “biblical xenophobia.” This old, old human habit of somehow demonizing or marginallizing most all “alien” books, thoughts, stories, poems, spiritual concepts and traditions. A problem which all families of bible-thumpers of babylon wrestle and war with and suffer from...by cutting themselves and others off from many many other authentic skillful means.
:)-->
Bible Xenophobia seems destined to always fail because the ideas inherent in thsoe outlooks owes just as much to banished alien ideas/doctrines/lost movements/lost writings.
Those are the crazy grandparents that they've locked in the basement. But one can still hear their heretical howlings beneath the tidy floorboards. They contribute just as much to the foundation of Christianity. Such can be obscured but never entirely eradicated.
These lost, foreign ideas are becoming easier to decipher with the emergence and circulation of such writings as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and others. It's a great time to be living.
i agree. it is a great time to be living (aside from the looming possibility of some sort of WW4 era, of course). there seems to be somewhat of a global textual underground revolution going on as we speak. new discoveries of old things. more and more new inter-faith dialogues opening up
like a bold quickening of the pace in an ongoing centuries-long anthropological shift towards learning "what to do when your planet keeps getting smaller and smaller" or something
or that other fabled time "when the sea gives up its dead" (thinking of recent dramatic archeological and other various technical advances and discoveries)
and i think yer right, Danny. any dogmatic or orthodox textual exclusivity is more or less destined to fail in many ways, especially by simply not being able to grow or elevate that slice of humanity beyond where it already is
it leaves us mostly unable to deepen any of those connections, histories, causalities and relationships to its own advice (beyond the most surface and "safety approved" connections)
when all along, the fingerprints of those crazy non-canonical grandparents are hiding in plain sight
It doesn't seem like a question to me but more of a statement with many statements about humanity as a whole. And how, by the grace of God he puts no difference between those in - let's say Tibet or Mongolia or China or Russia or the USA.
But taking a look at God's creation-mankind-His Love-His project so to speak.
Cause how can a man in Tibet reach such spiritual heights (as they have) without the Bible set on a pedastal, put well out of reach of the common man. Yet within reach because its more then the letter of the written scriptures that makes a man whole but God himself working within humankind to reach, or rather for us to finally see the result of His great love within each of us and all of us.
It's a matter of opening our eyes to a greater and deeper spiritual understanding. A matter of perspective, of seeing these things in a new Light, yet built on and not leaving behind the good of what we have learned to date.
For God's habitation is within these mortal bodies without prejudices or-simply put-respect of persons. Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racism are blatantly obvious especially within "christian" circles, as well as other parts of the planet. And it's a slap in the face to some who hold the scriptures so high that they cannot even understand them themselves.
I just don't know what to tell ya Def. You can obviously play a few notes really well (value of judgement in salvation, value of rejection in salvation). But if other notes are your enemy...might the spiritual harmony you still seem to seek always be somehow confused with spiritual wickedness?
imo, The "scriptural" call to "reject heresy" is to reject the very manner of choosing which you (and not just you) so often promote as being "of Christ". Because heresy is choosing. That old old habit of censorship of wisdom and spiritual exclusivity based on arbitrary things...like this old, dangerous pre-Christine idea of "infallible church patriarchies" (like so many christianized Pharoahs and Nimrods). Or the way Lucifer "choose" and took and a part of heaven into "his" camp (which many consider to be that original sin).
imo, The approach actually breeds more and more "evil spirits" in the souls of society, and causes more suffering and ignorance and torment in life (simply by cutting your own self off from what Christ has been teaching all over the world since the beginning of time, for starters), which is pretty much the "fallen" approach Jesus gave his life trying to deliver his kin from - the racism and prejudice and elitism that comes with all forms of orthodox dogmatism (though they are also all valuable and worthy of redemption).
Heck, even now, Jesus himself seems to have been made the scapegoat for this same sinful new/old patriarchy of mere possession and control and punishment and chopping things into pieces of good and bad. Although, there is nothing wrong with patriarchy itself, or making distinctions, but is it the highest form? Is it the most capable of dealing with life and love? Are all patriarchies equal? Is fatherly judgement really The dominant virtue and principle in life?
A black and white (and often painfully red) version of the universe is all that the ole beast within us is able to see. But the "mind of Christ" can distinguish the value of every color in the spectrum. Same universe, a different set of eyes = a new heaven and earth...coming together in harmony. Try it, you might even find a rebirth.
Yes, there is a lake of fire in life, and all heresy, selfish control, selfish judgement, and self deception has gotta take a dip one way or another. Its for this reason, it seems, that for most, Jesus' baptism is Hell. And so no wonder The Way is called "narrow" and "small" is known to make "grown" men cry (cuz they know they aint gonna try it). A way in which our shadows and our pains and hatred reveals our own personal edges, not to mention a real good reason to do crazy stuff like fast, meditate and go off by yourself in the wilderness for long periods of time til you see your devils and dragons...
CM, aka vert...
quote:yet built on and not leaving behind the good of what we have learned to date.
yes. This is redemption, imo. The ability to rescue any and all of our past partial truths and in-graft the values into a deeper, wider, higher, longer, newer arena of understanding. Lemons into lemonade... :D--> ...here and now...gotta love it.
And that which is new, that which is emergent, that which is the cutting edge...this is the newness of Christ. Not just dead stuff. Not just entombed stuff. Not just things written in books by dead men.
The timeless meets the ancient meets the old meets the new meets the future...
And the east meets the west and the north meets the south...
There's a great verse in Thomas that says no one should ever want to be a woman. — such liberation! (sarcasm)
Def - Would you mind citing which verse you actually have in mind - that is, if you haven't already burned your copy. :D-->
Which would be a shame, because, if it is the last saying, #114 - "...I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males..." - it may also be interpreted in the sense (of course, among many other meanings) that a woman is entitled to the same equality and status as a man. Other verses in Thomas go further and expand on the idea also expressed in Paul (Gal.3) - "neither male nor female" - - or Eph.2 & 5 - "When you make the two into one, and the outer like the inner,...when you make the male and the female into a single one...(Thomas 22).
Women tended to enjoy far more "liberation" in the so-called gnostic/heretical movements than in their so-supposed proto-orthodox competitors.
Marcion's religiously correct opponents (i.e., Epiphanius) were absolutely appalled by the fact that Marcionite women were ordained and allowed to baptize others.
quote:Women tended to enjoy far more "liberation" in the so-called gnostic/heretical movements than in their so-supposed proto-orthodox competitors.
indeed...sexual prejudice being possibly one of the widest and most harmful aspects of scriptural and textual exclusion, imo. all races also have women in them. women can be as spiritual as men (and in ways most men would never dare approach in a thousand years).
we can see it in the fundamentalist patriarchies of all languages, how whether its the heretical destruction of women's spiritual writings and contributions and hearts and hands and minds, or simply keeping them from learning how to write and think for themselves (pretty much forcing their gifts into secrecy and hiding)...health, prosperity, medicines, arts, all take a big nose dive real quick, it seems (talk about a naive thing to "choose"). and the farther this regresses, the closer men get to becoming quite reptilian and shark-eyed, and women revert to their much darker days of vicious desperate matriarchies.
again, i think prejudice against the individual and collective outer world of the feminine really just arises out of a problematic relationship with much subtler things.
example: look at "the j-man's" heavenly anointing from above by that holy spirit dove. no, not a magic gift for just him, or mere hallucination, but a real inner awakening to that truer unbreakable marriage of "angels in heaven." not just a taste of it, or fleeting spiritual high (though its kinda hard to tell what would have happened from the way he was killed so quickly afterward), but a fuller experience that really quickened his transformation to a realized peace-bringer and healer and super-dooper-saint and such.
once this anointing hit his "head", he was finally able to "do his thing," because he was not a threat to women, children, the sick and dying, or anyone's cultural or political wellbeing. he was able to suffer like a woman (who almost always already instinctually knows how to) with and alongside the weak and sinful and young and newborn, without seeking a weakness to exploit for his own elevation, or a way to control his "harem."
and so rather than having to "fight against" gravity and crawl on a single belly like a "natural man" just to get to "the mountaintop," he was lifted up to the "clouds above the mountain" by the more peaceful always two-fold approach of being winged (not to mention also being uplifted by those whom he genuinely healed and helped and taught without asking for or taking anything for himself in return...except the mutual bond of love, of course...we all have a right to ask for this...and there's nothing uniquely messianic about that, though it may seem so at times).
and the thing is, the J-man did not invent this, nor was he or his race the first to write about it, or experience it. though i would say that his way was truly emergent and agentic (and he seemed to know how far ahead of his time he was...he and his students actually predicting that his and their actions would continue to confuse people for thousands of years to come)
he seemed to summarize that "day of the lord" in that sense, and herald new "ages" coming, and then also raise all the old bars on the ways of simply being. he challenged (and continues to challenge) the world's perspective on body realm/gross-realm/physical realm life and death and rebirth. which obviously still confuses the patriarchies, because they still can't seem to replicate his "magic" fruit (let alone keep their pecker in their pants around women and children).
and so we are told to "raise our moral standards" and "lower our expectations"...which is a pretty creepy habit. and if women want to have a say in the world, its still deemed proper that they damn near stick to the old methods of a room full of men in white wigs (talk about homo-genos) or otherwise just shut up and stop complaining about everything and let the menfolk come up with "solutions."
...talk about making woman do that which is "unseemly" with one another
(which is not the same as Paul's admonitions, which seem more towards the practical manner in which all these "spiritual/sexual things" were being worked out in public and private)
and also not the same as...
quote:"I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males"
if the feminine gift to masculine is increased expansiveness, and cooperation, and connectiveness
the masculine gift to feminine is ascension, agency, and power. which, obviously would lead to increased healing and care and cooperation and communion in the world
unified, we are spiritual (which is living beyond that draw from the deck of chromosomes)
divided, we are not (trapped in the thinking sex and gender is only a physical thing, and therefore only a physical sin)
btw, def, thanks for bringing up the issue of sexual prejudice. :P-->
[Lk.8:1-3; reconstruction, based on Tert., Advers. Marc. IV.19]
The "J-Man" was surrounded by a circle of women.
And the very affluent and wealthy ones at that.
Here, Mary Magdalene is not listed among paupers.
Most likely, she was no "prostitute" either.
And even my own daughter has enough good sense to discern that "out of whom he cast seven devils" appended to Mary in the ortho-versions carries a post-editing sense a later invalidator.
They "clave" to Him (Tert.) - or, they constantly encircled Him, surrounded Him.
It's a very striking and unusual scene.
It's as if these women served as His companion guardians, perhaps even His interpreters. Or, for lack of a better term, His "mediums", who somehow bring about or generate the materialization and manifestation of this Spirit through their powerful circle.
I'm only speculating. But it's a provacative scene nonetheless.
You guys are going to have to glide in a little slower and closer for some of us simple folk who don't have the education or those crazy non-canonical grandparents to draw upon.
Perhaps that's what def means when he said put it in plain english.
:)--> lol, CM. i'll try harder. but also, feel free to feedback as specific as you wish. otherwise, cuz i can really only guess how it sounds on your end.
yeah. and I can see two general directions of this circle, Danny.
- one manifests peace and wellness outwardly universally from within the circle...
- the other attracts sickness and sin towards its self and its self-defined exclusive group
- one can be lifted up like a brass serpent in the wilderness (like the timeless caduceus of medicine) by those who trust them...
- as opposed to the more spiritually vampiric types who just take "it" for themselves as a possession.
i mean, if the gift ministeries are given first to the church (feminine)...then its the church that is free to decide who to anoint with it, right?
- perhaps at one end of the spectrum is the stealing/taking/seducing of the ministry out of the church's hands, thinking God gave it to him to give to the church...
- on the other end is simply being showered with ministries like gifts by the will of the church itself, without ever even having to ask for it.
- one ends in a hardening entropic cancerous carnivorous desperation for more more more...
- the other just never stops unfolding and opening and embracing and manifesting freely with no end in sight.
when it comes to "biblical/sexual/racial exclusion," Babylon first falls within, it seems
cuz heaven must come down to earth...not the other way around
hmmmm....I actually do have those crazy non-canonical grandparents to draw upon. And I do see the fingerprints of those crazy non-canonical grandparents that are hiding in plain sight. And they do beat up against the floorboards or the ceiling or the walls....
sheesh-just resting and breathing can do wonders for soul/spirit.
"A black and white (and often painfully red) version of the universe is all that the ole beast within us is able to see. But the "mind of Christ" can distinguish the value of every color in the spectrum. Same universe, a different set of eyes = a new heaven and earth...coming together in harmony. Try it, you might even find a rebirth.
Yes, there is a lake of fire in life, and all heresy, selfish control, selfish judgement, and self deception has gotta take a dip one way or another. Its for this reason, it seems, that for most, Jesus' baptism is Hell. And so no wonder The Way is called "narrow" and "small" is known to make "grown" men cry (cuz they know they aint gonna try it). A way in which our shadows and our pains and hatred reveals our own personal edges, not to mention a real good reason to do crazy stuff like fast, meditate and go off by yourself in the wilderness for long periods of time til you see your devils and dragons..."
yep, been there...gotta go again though...and enjoy the warmth of it too...
hmmmm....I actually do have those crazy non-canonical grandparents to draw upon. And I do see the fingerprints of those crazy non-canonical grandparents that are hiding in plain sight. And they do beat up against the floorboards or the ceiling or the walls....
(lol) yeah, those would be relatives from my side of the family...Don't forget to slide a little food beneath the door to them every once in awhile. They'd like that.
ok, sitting here sipping wine after a good day doing carpentry work, thinking about stories of the j-man and his religion...
btw, does that make me an official disciple or sumthin?
--> :P-->
looking at a book of poems on my desk...thinking of textual racisms...
...sufi, tao, and zen...now there are a few time-tested scriptural traditions worth exploring and comparing their spiritual words with the spiritual words of The Bible. Knowing also, that there is most likely someone somewhere also practicing sufi fanaticism, has a taoist addiction, or engages in zen fundamentalism...
reminds me: "in my father's house are many mansions"...and "but the "son of man" (the spiritual man) has nowhere to rest his head"
you can accept all spiritual material as good and take everything as equal, but Jesus said he was the only way.
The Bible we have today was compiled by church leaders who set high criteria for inclusion. Thomas and Mary's gospels didn't fit the bill, so they were rejected.
Gnosticism and marcionism were rejected as well for heretical beliefs, you may disagree, but look into why they were rejected instead of accepting them without analysis.
ok, def. you obviously have little or no intention of playing any other notes on the ole spiritual flute right now. but i'll play along with your response a bit. thanks for hanging out here. :)-->
quote:you can accept all spiritual material as good and take everything as equal...
and here, i think, is a big part of the fundamentalist trouble with the whole idea, def. cuz some obviously go this route...but some do not. though it may look the same at a glance.
imo, we agree a bit here...the univeral flat-truth approach seems as much (if not more) problematic than any more blatant textual racism or dogmatic fundamentalist program/ming.
i mean, great...so lets say we've just reached beyond racial beingness to a more global beingness, but why strip away all sense of judgement, discernment, value, virtue and call it all blindly equal?
this is not what i am suggesting at all. i believe there are very good reasons for styles and flavors and spices
and believe it or not, there are ways to measure and compare spiritual writings to spiritual writings that honor and distinguish what is true, pure, good in each of them. in the end, all leaves on the tree are for the healing of the nations of the world, right?
quote:...but Jesus said he was the only way
sure he did, but what he meant by this has a lot more meat to it than simply that. imo, the truth of that statement has a richness that goes beyond the first few layers of meaning (the whole of which also harmoniously includes the first layers of meaning).
and when it comes to the "specialness" or "exclusiveness" of Jesus and his people...it is my opinion that he was most likely the first singular and fully open expression the "divine logos" in human history (in compassion, knowledge and power). which is no small beans, anthropologically or otherwise. i mean, it had to happen sometime, somehow, some way.
no, not just so he could bind everyone to the textual evolutionary limitations of his own kin and background, but rather develop and demonstrate methods and practices of joining the many wisdoms of his kin to the greater garment of the world's wisdom (Christness itself being a "worldcentric" awareness and lifestyle).
from Abraham to Jesus and beyond contains perhaps the oldest and most diverse spiritual lineages on the planet (even if this royal sceptre is presently mostly stolen and laundered goods).
another problem perhaps...is how the ways of textual prejudice cannot/will not see how Jesus could be "The One" and also possibly learn valuable things from (and even improve on) the wisdoms of Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha (to name a few), not to mention include the goodnesses found in the hunter gatherers, the warlords, the old patriarchies, the then-modern philosophers and mystics and sinners and harlots...
sometimes i think, if we would actually just raise our messianic standards a notch or ten...rather than dumb it down
and just because one cannot or will not choose to work towards reconciling and redeeming a given spiritual-racial line to a place of functioning cohesive unity, does not mean it is un-redeemable. we are simply under a law of our own making and unable to redeem anything outside of that cage/cave/womb/pot...
but it is that new unique Way of Christ (in how he taught to be and think and believe) that enables us to redeem all lines to a greater inclusive (and functional) framework and univeral sense of Truth and truths (which is also ever-growing)
its just that he started from and with his own people. he knew how to speak and teach and live universal truths in his lineage in A Way that transcended (but included) even his own flesh and blood.
a trailblazer on the evolutionary cutting edge, ages ahead of his own time in understanding, taking the oil of many raw new realizations to some of the squeakiest wheels on the planet at the time...
imo, a real travesty is when we think we must somehow reject ours or another's earlier older levels of understanding (like self-imposed racial-textual limits) in order to grow. and so we refuse to leave (or be born from) the dogmatic cave/hole/box (which is useful for a time - like our basic spiritual grammar school lessons, or a seed splitting open and dying in the dirt)
quote:but look into why they were rejected instead of accepting them without analysis.
yes. a very good idea...analysis
and so also, what about the idea of revisiting and analyizing all the wayyyy old cases for rejection after all these tens of hundreds of years later? can't we just assume we've learned quite a few things about spirituallity (for better or worse).
and better yet, perhaps we ought to ask ourselves, and pay most special attention to..."what are the things i am not looking at?" or have yet to look at?
Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racisms do exist and they are Biblically justified. But that’s just life so get over it.
It is part of the process of an ebb and flow of simple and complex personal understanding. It is part of being human and seeking a unifying order and understanding of the world we live in. Some like to tell people what to think. Many find it simpler to be told or don’t realize there is any other option. And a crazy few seek to understand it for themselves on their own terms and in their own unique way (A wink to SG and Todd) ;)--> A small number of these crazies became the prophets that were the originators of the bible and other religions. (Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc)
The belief system you currently hold is the only valid belief system there is. All others are wrong and some people take this to its simple logical conclusion. Thus they feel they must force their belief system on others or kill them. (Islam o fascists are a current example)
The men and women who originally spoke the words that became the books of the Bible (and other religions) were mystics- prophets and seers. Often when they uttered them these people were ridiculed and marginalized in their societies. Often it was only after their words were written down that those who followed used them to substantiate their own beliefs and impose them on others. Thus these written words became Doctrine and Law- Immutable and Eternal. I suspect that many of the original prophets would be really ....ed at how their prophesy has been used.
I think that when you hear what someone says (or teaches) using the Bible as a reference and how they act upon it or anything else (even football for that matter)- This result provides much more insight and understanding about the spirit of that individual than it does about the Spirit of God.
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TheInvisibleDan
Bible Xenophobia seems destined to always fail because the ideas inherent in thsoe outlooks owes just as much to banished alien ideas/doctrines/lost movements/lost writings.
Those are the crazy grandparents that they've locked in the basement. But one can still hear their heretical howlings beneath the tidy floorboards. They contribute just as much to the foundation of Christianity. Such can be obscured but never entirely eradicated.
These lost, foreign ideas are becoming easier to decipher with the emergence and circulation of such writings as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and others. It's a great time to be living.
Danny
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sirguessalot
thanks for chimin in Danny
ok, more mega-geek mode...
i agree. it is a great time to be living (aside from the looming possibility of some sort of WW4 era, of course). there seems to be somewhat of a global textual underground revolution going on as we speak. new discoveries of old things. more and more new inter-faith dialogues opening up
like a bold quickening of the pace in an ongoing centuries-long anthropological shift towards learning "what to do when your planet keeps getting smaller and smaller" or something
or that other fabled time "when the sea gives up its dead" (thinking of recent dramatic archeological and other various technical advances and discoveries)
and i think yer right, Danny. any dogmatic or orthodox textual exclusivity is more or less destined to fail in many ways, especially by simply not being able to grow or elevate that slice of humanity beyond where it already is
it leaves us mostly unable to deepen any of those connections, histories, causalities and relationships to its own advice (beyond the most surface and "safety approved" connections)
when all along, the fingerprints of those crazy non-canonical grandparents are hiding in plain sight
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd
Hi I see you are giving them the truth that alot do not want to hear but I loved every word
Because even since I think of myself as open minded on most things looking for the truth no matter where it might be
I still find myself caught in some of the men made laws around the words wrote to the many racises of his God's children
But I am thankful my mind is opening up more each day but I have a long way to go
I hope your post gets others to think
thank you for writing this unto us
with love and an holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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def59
Well the gospels of Thomas and Mary were rejected once for being heretical and will have to be again.
Those Gospels were not deemed authoritative by the Church fathers for various reasons.
There's a great verse in Thomas that says no one should ever want to be a woman. — such liberation! (sarcasm)
guess-can you repeat your question plain English.
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CM
It doesn't seem like a question to me but more of a statement with many statements about humanity as a whole. And how, by the grace of God he puts no difference between those in - let's say Tibet or Mongolia or China or Russia or the USA.
But taking a look at God's creation-mankind-His Love-His project so to speak.
Cause how can a man in Tibet reach such spiritual heights (as they have) without the Bible set on a pedastal, put well out of reach of the common man. Yet within reach because its more then the letter of the written scriptures that makes a man whole but God himself working within humankind to reach, or rather for us to finally see the result of His great love within each of us and all of us.
It's a matter of opening our eyes to a greater and deeper spiritual understanding. A matter of perspective, of seeing these things in a new Light, yet built on and not leaving behind the good of what we have learned to date.
For God's habitation is within these mortal bodies without prejudices or-simply put-respect of persons. Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racism are blatantly obvious especially within "christian" circles, as well as other parts of the planet. And it's a slap in the face to some who hold the scriptures so high that they cannot even understand them themselves.
CM
aka vert
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sirguessalot
thanks Roy.
:)-->
I just don't know what to tell ya Def. You can obviously play a few notes really well (value of judgement in salvation, value of rejection in salvation). But if other notes are your enemy...might the spiritual harmony you still seem to seek always be somehow confused with spiritual wickedness?
imo, The "scriptural" call to "reject heresy" is to reject the very manner of choosing which you (and not just you) so often promote as being "of Christ". Because heresy is choosing. That old old habit of censorship of wisdom and spiritual exclusivity based on arbitrary things...like this old, dangerous pre-Christine idea of "infallible church patriarchies" (like so many christianized Pharoahs and Nimrods). Or the way Lucifer "choose" and took and a part of heaven into "his" camp (which many consider to be that original sin).
imo, The approach actually breeds more and more "evil spirits" in the souls of society, and causes more suffering and ignorance and torment in life (simply by cutting your own self off from what Christ has been teaching all over the world since the beginning of time, for starters), which is pretty much the "fallen" approach Jesus gave his life trying to deliver his kin from - the racism and prejudice and elitism that comes with all forms of orthodox dogmatism (though they are also all valuable and worthy of redemption).
Heck, even now, Jesus himself seems to have been made the scapegoat for this same sinful new/old patriarchy of mere possession and control and punishment and chopping things into pieces of good and bad. Although, there is nothing wrong with patriarchy itself, or making distinctions, but is it the highest form? Is it the most capable of dealing with life and love? Are all patriarchies equal? Is fatherly judgement really The dominant virtue and principle in life?
A black and white (and often painfully red) version of the universe is all that the ole beast within us is able to see. But the "mind of Christ" can distinguish the value of every color in the spectrum. Same universe, a different set of eyes = a new heaven and earth...coming together in harmony. Try it, you might even find a rebirth.
Yes, there is a lake of fire in life, and all heresy, selfish control, selfish judgement, and self deception has gotta take a dip one way or another. Its for this reason, it seems, that for most, Jesus' baptism is Hell. And so no wonder The Way is called "narrow" and "small" is known to make "grown" men cry (cuz they know they aint gonna try it). A way in which our shadows and our pains and hatred reveals our own personal edges, not to mention a real good reason to do crazy stuff like fast, meditate and go off by yourself in the wilderness for long periods of time til you see your devils and dragons...
CM, aka vert...
yes. This is redemption, imo. The ability to rescue any and all of our past partial truths and in-graft the values into a deeper, wider, higher, longer, newer arena of understanding. Lemons into lemonade...And that which is new, that which is emergent, that which is the cutting edge...this is the newness of Christ. Not just dead stuff. Not just entombed stuff. Not just things written in books by dead men.
The timeless meets the ancient meets the old meets the new meets the future...
And the east meets the west and the north meets the south...
What else could it be?
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CM
Yes-deeper wider higher longer newer arena of understanding
And dipping your toes in that fire only burns for a little while. Soon to get even braver and stick the whole foot in or more.
I can think of more to invite to this thread. I'd like them to share their thoughts as well.
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TheInvisibleDan
Def - Would you mind citing which verse you actually have in mind - that is, if you haven't already burned your copy.
:D-->
Which would be a shame, because, if it is the last saying, #114 - "...I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males..." - it may also be interpreted in the sense (of course, among many other meanings) that a woman is entitled to the same equality and status as a man. Other verses in Thomas go further and expand on the idea also expressed in Paul (Gal.3) - "neither male nor female" - - or Eph.2 & 5 - "When you make the two into one, and the outer like the inner,...when you make the male and the female into a single one...(Thomas 22).
Women tended to enjoy far more "liberation" in the so-called gnostic/heretical movements than in their so-supposed proto-orthodox competitors.
Marcion's religiously correct opponents (i.e., Epiphanius) were absolutely appalled by the fact that Marcionite women were ordained and allowed to baptize others.
Danny
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Abigail
Just wanted to pop in and say I am reading with interest.
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sirguessalot
indeed...sexual prejudice being possibly one of the widest and most harmful aspects of scriptural and textual exclusion, imo. all races also have women in them. women can be as spiritual as men (and in ways most men would never dare approach in a thousand years).
we can see it in the fundamentalist patriarchies of all languages, how whether its the heretical destruction of women's spiritual writings and contributions and hearts and hands and minds, or simply keeping them from learning how to write and think for themselves (pretty much forcing their gifts into secrecy and hiding)...health, prosperity, medicines, arts, all take a big nose dive real quick, it seems (talk about a naive thing to "choose"). and the farther this regresses, the closer men get to becoming quite reptilian and shark-eyed, and women revert to their much darker days of vicious desperate matriarchies.
again, i think prejudice against the individual and collective outer world of the feminine really just arises out of a problematic relationship with much subtler things.
example: look at "the j-man's" heavenly anointing from above by that holy spirit dove. no, not a magic gift for just him, or mere hallucination, but a real inner awakening to that truer unbreakable marriage of "angels in heaven." not just a taste of it, or fleeting spiritual high (though its kinda hard to tell what would have happened from the way he was killed so quickly afterward), but a fuller experience that really quickened his transformation to a realized peace-bringer and healer and super-dooper-saint and such.
once this anointing hit his "head", he was finally able to "do his thing," because he was not a threat to women, children, the sick and dying, or anyone's cultural or political wellbeing. he was able to suffer like a woman (who almost always already instinctually knows how to) with and alongside the weak and sinful and young and newborn, without seeking a weakness to exploit for his own elevation, or a way to control his "harem."
and so rather than having to "fight against" gravity and crawl on a single belly like a "natural man" just to get to "the mountaintop," he was lifted up to the "clouds above the mountain" by the more peaceful always two-fold approach of being winged (not to mention also being uplifted by those whom he genuinely healed and helped and taught without asking for or taking anything for himself in return...except the mutual bond of love, of course...we all have a right to ask for this...and there's nothing uniquely messianic about that, though it may seem so at times).
and the thing is, the J-man did not invent this, nor was he or his race the first to write about it, or experience it. though i would say that his way was truly emergent and agentic (and he seemed to know how far ahead of his time he was...he and his students actually predicting that his and their actions would continue to confuse people for thousands of years to come)
he seemed to summarize that "day of the lord" in that sense, and herald new "ages" coming, and then also raise all the old bars on the ways of simply being. he challenged (and continues to challenge) the world's perspective on body realm/gross-realm/physical realm life and death and rebirth. which obviously still confuses the patriarchies, because they still can't seem to replicate his "magic" fruit (let alone keep their pecker in their pants around women and children).
and so we are told to "raise our moral standards" and "lower our expectations"...which is a pretty creepy habit. and if women want to have a say in the world, its still deemed proper that they damn near stick to the old methods of a room full of men in white wigs (talk about homo-genos) or otherwise just shut up and stop complaining about everything and let the menfolk come up with "solutions."
...talk about making woman do that which is "unseemly" with one another
(which is not the same as Paul's admonitions, which seem more towards the practical manner in which all these "spiritual/sexual things" were being worked out in public and private)
and also not the same as...
if the feminine gift to masculine is increased expansiveness, and cooperation, and connectiveness
the masculine gift to feminine is ascension, agency, and power. which, obviously would lead to increased healing and care and cooperation and communion in the world
unified, we are spiritual (which is living beyond that draw from the deck of chromosomes)
divided, we are not (trapped in the thinking sex and gender is only a physical thing, and therefore only a physical sin)
btw, def, thanks for bringing up the issue of sexual prejudice.
:P-->
and thanks abi, for the feedback.
CM...
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TheInvisibleDan
The "J-Man" was surrounded by a circle of women.
And the very affluent and wealthy ones at that.
Here, Mary Magdalene is not listed among paupers.
Most likely, she was no "prostitute" either.
And even my own daughter has enough good sense to discern that "out of whom he cast seven devils" appended to Mary in the ortho-versions carries a post-editing sense a later invalidator.
They "clave" to Him (Tert.) - or, they constantly encircled Him, surrounded Him.
It's a very striking and unusual scene.
It's as if these women served as His companion guardians, perhaps even His interpreters. Or, for lack of a better term, His "mediums", who somehow bring about or generate the materialization and manifestation of this Spirit through their powerful circle.
I'm only speculating. But it's a provacative scene nonetheless.
Danny
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CM
You guys are going to have to glide in a little slower and closer for some of us simple folk who don't have the education or those crazy non-canonical grandparents to draw upon.
Perhaps that's what def means when he said put it in plain english.
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sirguessalot
yeah. and I can see two general directions of this circle, Danny.
- one manifests peace and wellness outwardly universally from within the circle...
- the other attracts sickness and sin towards its self and its self-defined exclusive group
- one can be lifted up like a brass serpent in the wilderness (like the timeless caduceus of medicine) by those who trust them...
- as opposed to the more spiritually vampiric types who just take "it" for themselves as a possession.
i mean, if the gift ministeries are given first to the church (feminine)...then its the church that is free to decide who to anoint with it, right?
- perhaps at one end of the spectrum is the stealing/taking/seducing of the ministry out of the church's hands, thinking God gave it to him to give to the church...
- on the other end is simply being showered with ministries like gifts by the will of the church itself, without ever even having to ask for it.
- one ends in a hardening entropic cancerous carnivorous desperation for more more more...
- the other just never stops unfolding and opening and embracing and manifesting freely with no end in sight.
when it comes to "biblical/sexual/racial exclusion," Babylon first falls within, it seems
cuz heaven must come down to earth...not the other way around
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CM
Ok, let me run this thread with your added input through the universe a few more times.
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CM
hmmmm....I actually do have those crazy non-canonical grandparents to draw upon. And I do see the fingerprints of those crazy non-canonical grandparents that are hiding in plain sight. And they do beat up against the floorboards or the ceiling or the walls....
sheesh-just resting and breathing can do wonders for soul/spirit.
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CM
"A black and white (and often painfully red) version of the universe is all that the ole beast within us is able to see. But the "mind of Christ" can distinguish the value of every color in the spectrum. Same universe, a different set of eyes = a new heaven and earth...coming together in harmony. Try it, you might even find a rebirth.
Yes, there is a lake of fire in life, and all heresy, selfish control, selfish judgement, and self deception has gotta take a dip one way or another. Its for this reason, it seems, that for most, Jesus' baptism is Hell. And so no wonder The Way is called "narrow" and "small" is known to make "grown" men cry (cuz they know they aint gonna try it). A way in which our shadows and our pains and hatred reveals our own personal edges, not to mention a real good reason to do crazy stuff like fast, meditate and go off by yourself in the wilderness for long periods of time til you see your devils and dragons..."
yep, been there...gotta go again though...and enjoy the warmth of it too...
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TheInvisibleDan
(lol) yeah, those would be relatives from my side of the family...Don't forget to slide a little food beneath the door to them every once in awhile. They'd like that.
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sirguessalot
ok, sitting here sipping wine after a good day doing carpentry work, thinking about stories of the j-man and his religion...
btw, does that make me an official disciple or sumthin?
looking at a book of poems on my desk...thinking of textual racisms...
...sufi, tao, and zen...now there are a few time-tested scriptural traditions worth exploring and comparing their spiritual words with the spiritual words of The Bible. Knowing also, that there is most likely someone somewhere also practicing sufi fanaticism, has a taoist addiction, or engages in zen fundamentalism...
reminds me: "in my father's house are many mansions"...and "but the "son of man" (the spiritual man) has nowhere to rest his head"
my oh my...the value of "nowhere"
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CM
Racism in general is the "I'm superior and your inferior because" of many things;
I know more then you
I'm born again, you are not
I'm a man you are a woman
I'm a woman you are a man
I'm body/soul/spirit, you are just body/soul.
....(which is bullsh!t by the way)...
I'm a disciple of this person, you are not.
The list is longer...
Notice the many "I"s!!
Loosen yourself from yourself and find yourself.
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CM
Ok, sirg man, "as specific as you wish"
(hang on to your bibles you scripture gurus)
Jesus' baptism...the first death...and Life.
The second one yet to come.
And the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
And the dead in Christ shall rise first (for he is Lord of both the dead and the living), Then we which are alive and remain shall join them.
He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
One way or another, all will pass through the fire...
One day as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.
Even so Lord, come....
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def59
you can accept all spiritual material as good and take everything as equal, but Jesus said he was the only way.
The Bible we have today was compiled by church leaders who set high criteria for inclusion. Thomas and Mary's gospels didn't fit the bill, so they were rejected.
Gnosticism and marcionism were rejected as well for heretical beliefs, you may disagree, but look into why they were rejected instead of accepting them without analysis.
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sirguessalot
ok, def. you obviously have little or no intention of playing any other notes on the ole spiritual flute right now. but i'll play along with your response a bit. thanks for hanging out here.
:)-->
and here, i think, is a big part of the fundamentalist trouble with the whole idea, def. cuz some obviously go this route...but some do not. though it may look the same at a glance.
imo, we agree a bit here...the univeral flat-truth approach seems as much (if not more) problematic than any more blatant textual racism or dogmatic fundamentalist program/ming.
i mean, great...so lets say we've just reached beyond racial beingness to a more global beingness, but why strip away all sense of judgement, discernment, value, virtue and call it all blindly equal?
this is not what i am suggesting at all. i believe there are very good reasons for styles and flavors and spices
and believe it or not, there are ways to measure and compare spiritual writings to spiritual writings that honor and distinguish what is true, pure, good in each of them. in the end, all leaves on the tree are for the healing of the nations of the world, right?
sure he did, but what he meant by this has a lot more meat to it than simply that. imo, the truth of that statement has a richness that goes beyond the first few layers of meaning (the whole of which also harmoniously includes the first layers of meaning).and when it comes to the "specialness" or "exclusiveness" of Jesus and his people...it is my opinion that he was most likely the first singular and fully open expression the "divine logos" in human history (in compassion, knowledge and power). which is no small beans, anthropologically or otherwise. i mean, it had to happen sometime, somehow, some way.
no, not just so he could bind everyone to the textual evolutionary limitations of his own kin and background, but rather develop and demonstrate methods and practices of joining the many wisdoms of his kin to the greater garment of the world's wisdom (Christness itself being a "worldcentric" awareness and lifestyle).
from Abraham to Jesus and beyond contains perhaps the oldest and most diverse spiritual lineages on the planet (even if this royal sceptre is presently mostly stolen and laundered goods).
another problem perhaps...is how the ways of textual prejudice cannot/will not see how Jesus could be "The One" and also possibly learn valuable things from (and even improve on) the wisdoms of Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha (to name a few), not to mention include the goodnesses found in the hunter gatherers, the warlords, the old patriarchies, the then-modern philosophers and mystics and sinners and harlots...
sometimes i think, if we would actually just raise our messianic standards a notch or ten...rather than dumb it down
and just because one cannot or will not choose to work towards reconciling and redeeming a given spiritual-racial line to a place of functioning cohesive unity, does not mean it is un-redeemable. we are simply under a law of our own making and unable to redeem anything outside of that cage/cave/womb/pot...
but it is that new unique Way of Christ (in how he taught to be and think and believe) that enables us to redeem all lines to a greater inclusive (and functional) framework and univeral sense of Truth and truths (which is also ever-growing)
its just that he started from and with his own people. he knew how to speak and teach and live universal truths in his lineage in A Way that transcended (but included) even his own flesh and blood.
a trailblazer on the evolutionary cutting edge, ages ahead of his own time in understanding, taking the oil of many raw new realizations to some of the squeakiest wheels on the planet at the time...
imo, a real travesty is when we think we must somehow reject ours or another's earlier older levels of understanding (like self-imposed racial-textual limits) in order to grow. and so we refuse to leave (or be born from) the dogmatic cave/hole/box (which is useful for a time - like our basic spiritual grammar school lessons, or a seed splitting open and dying in the dirt)
yes. a very good idea...analysis
and so also, what about the idea of revisiting and analyizing all the wayyyy old cases for rejection after all these tens of hundreds of years later? can't we just assume we've learned quite a few things about spirituallity (for better or worse).
and better yet, perhaps we ought to ask ourselves, and pay most special attention to..."what are the things i am not looking at?" or have yet to look at?
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ckeer
Hi SG (and Todd)
Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racisms do exist and they are Biblically justified. But that’s just life so get over it.
It is part of the process of an ebb and flow of simple and complex personal understanding. It is part of being human and seeking a unifying order and understanding of the world we live in. Some like to tell people what to think. Many find it simpler to be told or don’t realize there is any other option. And a crazy few seek to understand it for themselves on their own terms and in their own unique way (A wink to SG and Todd)
;)--> A small number of these crazies became the prophets that were the originators of the bible and other religions. (Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc)
The belief system you currently hold is the only valid belief system there is. All others are wrong and some people take this to its simple logical conclusion. Thus they feel they must force their belief system on others or kill them. (Islam o fascists are a current example)
The men and women who originally spoke the words that became the books of the Bible (and other religions) were mystics- prophets and seers. Often when they uttered them these people were ridiculed and marginalized in their societies. Often it was only after their words were written down that those who followed used them to substantiate their own beliefs and impose them on others. Thus these written words became Doctrine and Law- Immutable and Eternal. I suspect that many of the original prophets would be really ....ed at how their prophesy has been used.
I think that when you hear what someone says (or teaches) using the Bible as a reference and how they act upon it or anything else (even football for that matter)- This result provides much more insight and understanding about the spirit of that individual than it does about the Spirit of God.
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Too Gray Now
Race - ism
Sex - ism
Tao - ism
...most "isms" have a bad rap IMO when (or if) they make themselves MONO - isms.
We should be not like milk, homogenized – but, like milk, BEFORE it is homogenized... its all there, in one place…
- its just not MONO milk or Hetro Milk – or even tri- milk or tertiary milk -
or some other ilk of milk
;)-->
I think Sirguress is saying, at least in part, is more an idea of "inclusion" without "amalgamation" or the parts becoming homogenized...
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