quote: By the way, I don't believe that using an athletic analogy, or image invalidates the verse about the Devil coming to steal, kill, and destroy. Metaphors, analogies and other figures of speech serve to illustrate one aspect of a concept. After all, Christians are called douloses as well...are we literal slaves?
Nothing demonstrates TWI's dishonesty at research more than the athletes of the spirit.
Oak -- good point, and I agree 100%. The thing that gripes my *** about this whole thing is that we were told that this has to be the way it is. They had to get the denominational "chest huffing and puffing" going on to prove that they once again had *inside info* on what was really meant.
I'm all for analogies. They make a point, they help one understand a thing in a better light, they offer added insight, but they are not to be traded for what is really said, and made into doctrine.
If docvic and martinfail wanted to really go whole hog --- I would expect them to teach that the gift of Holy Spirit was a Swiss army knife -- since that was the analogy used to describe the gift and the various *usages* all in one package.
That of course would be preposterous, but no less so than the athletes *doctrine* foisted on us.
ok, oak, did the writer of Ephesians believe he served a prince of peace, or a prince of war?
i mean, come on. look at his life. his mission. everything he wrote. its not some secret what these guys were trying to be.
i mean, did he write this stuff when he was a soldier and oppressor and cop, or was it many years after he turned his life into that of a wandering healer, teacher and mystic peacenik (willing to go as far as getting himself killed and beaten and imprisoned many times for his beliefs)?
why would he write merely about physical war? when the entire hellenic culture hinged upon the spiritual relationships between games and war (especially for fostering peace between the greek nations...for a while)
and if not physical war, but some sort of war for souls, how can we think we can or should nit pick one or the other out of this guy's religious poetry?
in most, if not all classic literatures, figures of speech and multiple meanings and such were common in all poetry, songs, and spiritual appeals. and this guy was most likely not a mere hack at it (being more multi-cultural in a very cosmo and philosophically charged world)
it seems to make much less sense for this Paul guy to suddenly flash forward to our modern single-plane flatland fundamental literalist literary style, or worse, somehow magically revert to pre-historical more single-minded cave painting expressions of monsters.
quote:I guess it's a valid opinion as anything else, but you can't get the bible to back it up.
i know you like playing the ole D's advocate, oak, but...
you kidding? who could use a Bible to "back anything up" around here?
without going to war or wrestling over the correct version or interpretation of things
quote:but not that he actually did it.
did what? write about sports and war in the same breath, as using the same dynamics?
ummm....trying to represent how life is a struggle, whether yer fighting for life or spiritual reward? and so "get to fighting, do yer best, use the best equipment at your disposal," etc...
check out the book of rev says about Ephesians. they love to play and simply hate to lose.
why would Paul promote mere war to them? or mere sport?
also, in some traditions, the practice of being a pacifist is expressed as being a warrior
i think LCM is in error to say eph 6 has nothing to with war
just as we would be in error in saying it 6 has nothing to do with sport (because of all his obvious boneheadednesses)
but in another light, in using "sport" and "playing war" in a deeply spiritual context, as a way to avoid all-out inner/outer war...sounds more like something a prince of peace would promote, anyway
we can "settle it like Solomon," in wisdom and peace
ya know, become like a child...and all that ;)-->
(who just love to play games to learn)
besides, it was one of the reasons the greeks started the Olympiads...to avoid war
not to mention how Paul is well known for using a cultures own literary and religious heritages to promote silly things like divine love and the very real brotherhood of all humanity
Actually my argument isn't with you Sirguess, it's with the "ministry" that claimed that they could discern the original intent of the guys who wrote the bible down, would get incredibly anal about some things, yet pull definitions out of their butts if it was convenient.
Kark Kahler has a section in his book where he reviews his notes from a teaching tape about "athletes of the spirit". It's amazing how much butt covering and back pedaling goes on, not just from Martindale, but Wierwille and Cummins too.
Anyway, I can't be the devil's advocate...I don't believe in the Devil
lol, oak. yeah, there is always to be a mystery it seems.
jim, according to lcm, once yer "born again" according to the pfal model, the "OT war for life and death is over." to think otherwise is to be "deceived by the adversary." that's the gist, sum and substance anyway. lol
quote:it's with the "ministry" that claimed that they could discern the original intent of the guys who wrote the bible down, would get incredibly anal about some things, yet pull definitions out of their butts if it was convenient.
I think this is the whole issue. Paul could have been using a military metaphor or a sports metaphor. We'd understand either way.
The point is that VPW would *rage* about how he would never compromise God's word. Now it looks like if he had to decide between compromising his word and God's word, he chose God's. Looking back at him holding up his bible and shouting "It's the Word, people", now has a kind of looney toon feel to it.
In a somewhat perverse sense, LCW was more honest. He just fired the research department and made it up as he went along.
quote: Actually my argument isn't with you Sirguess, it's with the "ministry" that claimed that they could discern the original intent of the guys who wrote the bible down, would get incredibly anal about some things, yet pull definitions out of their butts if it was convenient.
Expanded Translation of Ephesians 6:10-17 (passage taken from p10 of "Athletes of the Spirit" booklet)
10. From now on keep on being strong in your sold-out commitment to and in our Lord, and in the willfully exerted power of His might for you, for with vigor you can do.
11. Clothe yourself with all the equipment, trappings and gear of a gymnast of God, with a view to being able to win standing up against the systematic, scheming methods and devices of the Devil.
12. Because your wrestling contest is not with a view toward fighting flesh and blood, but with a view to being distinctly independent of all principalities, including the exercised authority of sultans who rule and exert their worldly powers by devil spirits in every place beneath the heavens.
13. Because of this, clothe yourself with the complete equipment, gear, of God, so that you may be able to withstand and resist the evil one in the contest; and if you prepare yourself with all the equipment in everything, you will stand firm and erect before the bema.
14. Stand therefore, with your whole self [LOINS] girdled with the truth of the Word of God and with the strong and pure HEART of your renewed mind, clothed in His righteousness,
15. And ready to go, with your FEET toughened, having the foothold for standing so you can carry the gospel of peace.
16. And finally, being well trained and in top shape, take to yourself the discus, that is, believing the rock Christ Jesus, and with the rock, Christ Jesus, you will have power to outdistance all the javelins of the evil, wicked one.
17. And therefore you wear the glorious crown of wholeness, for you've won every contest with the javelin provided you by God, which is the Word of God.
I believe this translation was taken from a manuscript that was found in Arabia (as v12 references the: 'exercised authority of sultans') but the background on this is sketchy from my memory.
The figure of speech specifically used in Ephesians 6 is an: "Allegory" which is an extended metaphor, or the extension of a comparison by implication. An allegory contains multiple points of comparison between two things being compared, while a parable is designed to make one basic point of comparison. An allegory is an extended simile.
In the old testament the dominant imagary was militaristic. That's understandable because God's people were an ethnic, geographical organized unit - Israel. Their main purpose was to win back the promised land that had been taken over by unbelieving races, and they had to win it back militaristically - in battle. They had to do it with a strong standing army, so the militaristic imagary in the old testament makes sense.
In the new testament the imagary is not militaristic but athletic, although atheletic discipline historically developed from military skills. There are numerous scripture references with athletic terminology in the new testament, not merely in Ephesians alone.
Romans 9:16 speaks of running - [trecho - to run in a race]
Romans 15:30 talks of striving together - [sunagonizomai, to strive together in a contest]
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 also speaks of running - (trecho) in a race [stadion, racecourse, furlong] but one receiveth the prize [brabeion, prize in the contest]... and every man that striveth (agonizomai) for the mastery is temperate [enkratueomai, to exercise self-control in disciplined training]. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown [stephanos, crown received for winning the race] but we an incorruptible.
I therefore run (trecho) not as uncertainly; so fight [pukteuo, to box] not as one that beateth the air [aera deron, to bet the air, shadowbox] but I keep under my body [hupopiazo mou tosoma, I subject my body to intense physical exertion] lest that by any means, when I have preached [kerusso, herald, as the trumpet heralded the competition] to others, that I myself should be a castaway.
II Corintians 10:13, 15,16:
But we will not boast of things without measure, but according to the measure of the rule [kanon, rule, standard, or lane marking in a foot race] which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even you.
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of others men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule (kanon) abundantly,
To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line (kanon) of things made ready to our hand.
Other athletic terminology appears in the New testament:
Galatians 2:2, Galatians 5:7, Galatians 6:16, Ephesians 6:12, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 1:30, Philippians 2:16, Philippians 3,13, 14, 16, Philippians 4:1, and 3, Colossians 1:29, Colossians 2:1, Colossians 2:18, Colossians 3:15, Colossians 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 2:2, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, II Thessalonians 3:1, I Timothy 4:7 and 8, I Timothy 6:12, II Timothy 2:5 and II Timothy 4:7 and 8.
I won't cover all the greek words listed in those scripture references listed above here, but can provide them to anyone interested. You will also find them listed on pgs 30 and 31 of the Athletes of the Spirit booklet.
I believe this translation was taken from a manuscript that was found in Arabia (as v12 references the: 'exercised authority of sultans') but the background on this is sketchy from my memory.
(lol) And apparently not the "Sultans of Swing" - learning chords and an editor could have helped prevent this Arabian-Retarded-Vulcanese disaster.
WordWolf - Could it be because gymnasts competed in the buff?
The material What The Hay presented referenced the word "sunagonizomai, to strive together in a contest".
"Sunagonizomai" is the verbal cognate of the noun "agon", with the prefix "sun" which indicates "together with".
The word "agon", believe it or not, was a Greek military term.
When the Greeks would have a battle, the two sides would form their men in phalanxes ("stacks" or "piles" of men). They were drawn up in close order, that is, shoulder to shoulder and front to rear, usually about eight ranks deep.
The two sides would charge each other. At the moment of collision, there would be a lot of thrusting and stabbing with spears, but then the opponents would be crushed together by the weight of the men behind them. After that, the battle turned mostly into a shoving contest, sort of like a rugby scrum, with whatever nastiness the two front ranks could improvise in the press going on between them.
Everybody would be using his shield to shove against the back of the man in front of him, until the cohesion of one side or the other broke. Then the winners would slaughter a lot of the losers as they ran away.
The shoving part of the battle was called the "agon". The sports terminology was derived from the military, even with this word.
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dmiller
Oak -- good point, and I agree 100%. The thing that gripes my *** about this whole thing is that we were told that this has to be the way it is. They had to get the denominational "chest huffing and puffing" going on to prove that they once again had *inside info* on what was really meant.
I'm all for analogies. They make a point, they help one understand a thing in a better light, they offer added insight, but they are not to be traded for what is really said, and made into doctrine.
If docvic and martinfail wanted to really go whole hog --- I would expect them to teach that the gift of Holy Spirit was a Swiss army knife -- since that was the analogy used to describe the gift and the various *usages* all in one package.
That of course would be preposterous, but no less so than the athletes *doctrine* foisted on us.
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sirguessalot
Bingo, Dan. lol
:)-->
ok, oak, did the writer of Ephesians believe he served a prince of peace, or a prince of war?
i mean, come on. look at his life. his mission. everything he wrote. its not some secret what these guys were trying to be.
i mean, did he write this stuff when he was a soldier and oppressor and cop, or was it many years after he turned his life into that of a wandering healer, teacher and mystic peacenik (willing to go as far as getting himself killed and beaten and imprisoned many times for his beliefs)?
why would he write merely about physical war? when the entire hellenic culture hinged upon the spiritual relationships between games and war (especially for fostering peace between the greek nations...for a while)
and if not physical war, but some sort of war for souls, how can we think we can or should nit pick one or the other out of this guy's religious poetry?
in most, if not all classic literatures, figures of speech and multiple meanings and such were common in all poetry, songs, and spiritual appeals. and this guy was most likely not a mere hack at it (being more multi-cultural in a very cosmo and philosophically charged world)
it seems to make much less sense for this Paul guy to suddenly flash forward to our modern single-plane flatland fundamental literalist literary style, or worse, somehow magically revert to pre-historical more single-minded cave painting expressions of monsters.
i know you like playing the ole D's advocate, oak, but...
you kidding? who could use a Bible to "back anything up" around here?
without going to war or wrestling over the correct version or interpretation of things
did what? write about sports and war in the same breath, as using the same dynamics?
ummm....trying to represent how life is a struggle, whether yer fighting for life or spiritual reward? and so "get to fighting, do yer best, use the best equipment at your disposal," etc...
check out the book of rev says about Ephesians. they love to play and simply hate to lose.
why would Paul promote mere war to them? or mere sport?
also, in some traditions, the practice of being a pacifist is expressed as being a warrior
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sirguessalot
i think LCM is in error to say eph 6 has nothing to with war
just as we would be in error in saying it 6 has nothing to do with sport (because of all his obvious boneheadednesses)
but in another light, in using "sport" and "playing war" in a deeply spiritual context, as a way to avoid all-out inner/outer war...sounds more like something a prince of peace would promote, anyway
we can "settle it like Solomon," in wisdom and peace
ya know, become like a child...and all that
;)-->
(who just love to play games to learn)
besides, it was one of the reasons the greeks started the Olympiads...to avoid war
not to mention how Paul is well known for using a cultures own literary and religious heritages to promote silly things like divine love and the very real brotherhood of all humanity
ok, i'll try to be done now...
peace
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Jim
Can anyone recall what the stated reason was the the verses were interpreted as a sports metphor? A translation error somewhere?
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Oakspear
Actually my argument isn't with you Sirguess, it's with the "ministry" that claimed that they could discern the original intent of the guys who wrote the bible down, would get incredibly anal about some things, yet pull definitions out of their butts if it was convenient.
Kark Kahler has a section in his book where he reviews his notes from a teaching tape about "athletes of the spirit". It's amazing how much butt covering and back pedaling goes on, not just from Martindale, but Wierwille and Cummins too.
Anyway, I can't be the devil's advocate...I don't believe in the Devil
peace to you as well
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sirguessalot
lol, oak. yeah, there is always to be a mystery it seems.
jim, according to lcm, once yer "born again" according to the pfal model, the "OT war for life and death is over." to think otherwise is to be "deceived by the adversary." that's the gist, sum and substance anyway. lol
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Jim
I think this is the whole issue. Paul could have been using a military metaphor or a sports metaphor. We'd understand either way.
The point is that VPW would *rage* about how he would never compromise God's word. Now it looks like if he had to decide between compromising his word and God's word, he chose God's. Looking back at him holding up his bible and shouting "It's the Word, people", now has a kind of looney toon feel to it.
In a somewhat perverse sense, LCW was more honest. He just fired the research department and made it up as he went along.
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ChattyKathy
Okay, I'm convinced.
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dmiller
BINGO!!
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What The Hay
OK -- HERE IT IS!!!
Expanded Translation of Ephesians 6:10-17 (passage taken from p10 of "Athletes of the Spirit" booklet)
10. From now on keep on being strong in your sold-out commitment to and in our Lord, and in the willfully exerted power of His might for you, for with vigor you can do.
11. Clothe yourself with all the equipment, trappings and gear of a gymnast of God, with a view to being able to win standing up against the systematic, scheming methods and devices of the Devil.
12. Because your wrestling contest is not with a view toward fighting flesh and blood, but with a view to being distinctly independent of all principalities, including the exercised authority of sultans who rule and exert their worldly powers by devil spirits in every place beneath the heavens.
13. Because of this, clothe yourself with the complete equipment, gear, of God, so that you may be able to withstand and resist the evil one in the contest; and if you prepare yourself with all the equipment in everything, you will stand firm and erect before the bema.
14. Stand therefore, with your whole self [LOINS] girdled with the truth of the Word of God and with the strong and pure HEART of your renewed mind, clothed in His righteousness,
15. And ready to go, with your FEET toughened, having the foothold for standing so you can carry the gospel of peace.
16. And finally, being well trained and in top shape, take to yourself the discus, that is, believing the rock Christ Jesus, and with the rock, Christ Jesus, you will have power to outdistance all the javelins of the evil, wicked one.
17. And therefore you wear the glorious crown of wholeness, for you've won every contest with the javelin provided you by God, which is the Word of God.
I believe this translation was taken from a manuscript that was found in Arabia (as v12 references the: 'exercised authority of sultans') but the background on this is sketchy from my memory.
The figure of speech specifically used in Ephesians 6 is an: "Allegory" which is an extended metaphor, or the extension of a comparison by implication. An allegory contains multiple points of comparison between two things being compared, while a parable is designed to make one basic point of comparison. An allegory is an extended simile.
In the old testament the dominant imagary was militaristic. That's understandable because God's people were an ethnic, geographical organized unit - Israel. Their main purpose was to win back the promised land that had been taken over by unbelieving races, and they had to win it back militaristically - in battle. They had to do it with a strong standing army, so the militaristic imagary in the old testament makes sense.
In the new testament the imagary is not militaristic but athletic, although atheletic discipline historically developed from military skills. There are numerous scripture references with athletic terminology in the new testament, not merely in Ephesians alone.
Romans 9:16 speaks of running - [trecho - to run in a race]
Romans 15:30 talks of striving together - [sunagonizomai, to strive together in a contest]
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 also speaks of running - (trecho) in a race [stadion, racecourse, furlong] but one receiveth the prize [brabeion, prize in the contest]... and every man that striveth (agonizomai) for the mastery is temperate [enkratueomai, to exercise self-control in disciplined training]. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown [stephanos, crown received for winning the race] but we an incorruptible.
I therefore run (trecho) not as uncertainly; so fight [pukteuo, to box] not as one that beateth the air [aera deron, to bet the air, shadowbox] but I keep under my body [hupopiazo mou tosoma, I subject my body to intense physical exertion] lest that by any means, when I have preached [kerusso, herald, as the trumpet heralded the competition] to others, that I myself should be a castaway.
II Corintians 10:13, 15,16:
But we will not boast of things without measure, but according to the measure of the rule [kanon, rule, standard, or lane marking in a foot race] which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even you.
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of others men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule (kanon) abundantly,
To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line (kanon) of things made ready to our hand.
Other athletic terminology appears in the New testament:
Galatians 2:2, Galatians 5:7, Galatians 6:16, Ephesians 6:12, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 1:30, Philippians 2:16, Philippians 3,13, 14, 16, Philippians 4:1, and 3, Colossians 1:29, Colossians 2:1, Colossians 2:18, Colossians 3:15, Colossians 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 2:2, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, II Thessalonians 3:1, I Timothy 4:7 and 8, I Timothy 6:12, II Timothy 2:5 and II Timothy 4:7 and 8.
I won't cover all the greek words listed in those scripture references listed above here, but can provide them to anyone interested. You will also find them listed on pgs 30 and 31 of the Athletes of the Spirit booklet.
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TheInvisibleDan
(lol) And apparently not the "Sultans of Swing" - learning chords and an editor could have helped prevent this Arabian-Retarded-Vulcanese disaster.
Good post, WTH.
Danny
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WordWolf
Apparently,
these mysterious Arabians have the same obsession with their johnsons that
lcm had, because 6:13 has that truly bizarre phraseology I winced at when I
was watching the thing in an auditorium when we first saw it in NY....
Further,
despite the Olympic games having sunk into wild corruption and vanishing a
relatively short time after they started, these mysterious Arabians seem to have
been utterly obsessed with them-using javelins, the discus, and so on,
and not, say, the tulwar, the jambiya, the chakram-which they'd actually SEEN
in use.
They also ended up with the self-contradictory statement in 6:11...
"Clothe yourself with all the equipment, trappings and gear of a gymnast..."
Who here can explain what's contradictory about this?
(I KNOW some of you can explain now that you've seen it...)
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Steve Lortz
WordWolf - Could it be because gymnasts competed in the buff?
The material What The Hay presented referenced the word "sunagonizomai, to strive together in a contest".
"Sunagonizomai" is the verbal cognate of the noun "agon", with the prefix "sun" which indicates "together with".
The word "agon", believe it or not, was a Greek military term.
When the Greeks would have a battle, the two sides would form their men in phalanxes ("stacks" or "piles" of men). They were drawn up in close order, that is, shoulder to shoulder and front to rear, usually about eight ranks deep.
The two sides would charge each other. At the moment of collision, there would be a lot of thrusting and stabbing with spears, but then the opponents would be crushed together by the weight of the men behind them. After that, the battle turned mostly into a shoving contest, sort of like a rugby scrum, with whatever nastiness the two front ranks could improvise in the press going on between them.
Everybody would be using his shield to shove against the back of the man in front of him, until the cohesion of one side or the other broke. Then the winners would slaughter a lot of the losers as they ran away.
The shoving part of the battle was called the "agon". The sports terminology was derived from the military, even with this word.
Love,
Steve
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