My coat came back from the cleaners unscathed. (I hate it when that happens :D-->.)
You wrote: "If you were to witness to someone who had never heard of TWI, VPW, or PFAL, would you take them to the PFAL book or the Bible?"
In answer to your question, I show them what they can relate to, like a Gideon Bible. I think there is only one person these last 7 years who I tried to skip around and get straight to PFAL with. There may have been another, but I forget. I would LIKE to be able to do it the faster way, but few can handle it. Few GRADS can handle it.
You wrote: "I think vpw was afraid we all would go out and really start looking at the scriptures and start coming up with different conclusions. That's why he started to the corps, to keep us all in line."
I used to think that exact same thing too, and that's one of the BIG reasons I never went Corps.
I did my best for 27 years (on and off) to check out the scriptures against his teaching. He seemed to pass all my tests...eventually. Before JCNG came out I had collected more scriptures to support Dr's thesis than are in that book.
I eventualy dropped my suspicion of Dr having that fear as I met several brainy people who Dr refused to let in the Corps. After that I suspected that for SOME people Dr used the Corps to keep those people off the field and messing it up, at least for a while.
You wrote: "That's a big IF, Mike. Especially when one considers..."
I fully realize that it's a big IF and have thought it through as best as I before placing my bet. I also fully realize that the alternative is a big bleak blank.
It's either a set of PFAL texts on my Table of Challenge, or it's a pile of air, remembering that my challenge with that table is a standard that is unaltered and unedited in any way.
And yes, I've fully considered the complications as you mentioned them. I've posted here several times that I had a full ten year head start in that area. I've brought into my considerations as much as I could find in the KJV about men of God who screwed up, and I've tried my best to turn a blind eye to most of what our culture's shifting sands of pop psychology has to say about things like that.
***
You wrote, quoting me: "If he is not God's spokesman, then who is? the KJV translators and versionators? You? Do you take your word for it as you pick and choose among translations, versions, and as you pick various Bible scholars who help you with a difficult verse or two or a thousand?"
Then you asked: "How about holy spirit?"
What about unholy spirit? The counterfeit, by definition, looks very good to the untrained eye. Where do we get that training? PFAL!
***
You wrote: "...it really makes little difference to me where the comma is placed. Its just a matter of living simply and kindly with healthy boundaries in place."
I see what you are saying. Getting along with people is not the whole story though. It makes a huge difference how the details stack up if we want to correct this broken universe filled with sickness and death. How is getting along with people ever going to help defeat death?
***
You wrote, again quoting me: "God can pretty well only draw these kinds of people."
You then retorted with: "Gee, you sure do limit God."
No, God limits Himself in some ways. He can't lie or break His own laws, like in areas where free will is involved. If people decide to not put God first, then the adversary, being the god who was given control of the senses realm, has a much better chance of deceptively convincing a person to resist God's drawing.
Closing our eyes to the adversary will not limit his power. Jesus took him on full face and was the victor.
Socks? Condescending and mocking? I like socks. I think he's one of the friendliest posters at GS, if not the friendliest. Whatever he said to you, you likely deserved it.
Anyway, yes, you are self-promoting. Maybe you don't understand the definition of the term. Just because what you're promoting isn't original (although, in your case, even though you refer back to PFAL, I think your take on it is very unique), it doesn't mean you aren't promoting it for personal gain. Not necessarily monetary gain. More like ego-validation.
I think you cite PFAL to give yourself credibility. Without attaching your work to Wierwille's, you wouldn't have an audience. If Rafael were to comment, I think he'd place you somewhere in Dante's 8th circle of Hell with all the other panderers, and seducers, and hypocrites. Just a guess.
I don't understand you, Mike. You talk, but don't listen, as if you've heard it all. Years ago, as a WOW, we had a local pastor who used to visit our fellowships. He used to annoy me because he was often probing for some sort of trauma in our lives that might explain our attraction to The Way. He thought we spent so much time "in the word" to cover up and alleviate some unresolved pain. When I read your posts, I read them through the eyes of that pastor.
Unresolved pain does not automatically mean that a person's search for relief will be illegitimate.
That CAN happen, but people with no pain can make wrong choices too.
There's no guarantee that traditional pastoring is in line with the True God's healing plans.
I choose, both for pain avoidance and for seeking God's pleasurable rewards, to persue the non-traditional plan He has made available. I try my best to put my ego aside and minister to needs as I see them.
If I am in this for ego gratification, I don't receive it. Who is it here who slaps me on the back and strokes my ego? I get ego attacks here all the time.
Socks is a nice guy, but when he is challenged more than he is accustomed to, his flesh can sin too.
I see people here gravitate from one set of heros to worship (like vpw, lcm, some limb leader) to others, like socks, or BG Leonard, or Kenyon, of Bullinger, or Billy Graham...
I can appreciate many people's good qualities, but I try to remember that cursed is the man who trusts in man. I did that too with vpw for those 27 years while many others were worshipping him, before I came back to PFAL. It's his writings that I see are bigger than him and that I fully embrace.
VPW also thought that the written PFAL was bigger than him: he wished he was the man he knew to be.
Unresolved pain does not atomatically mean that a person's search for relief will always be illegitimate.
Of course. Did I say otherwise?
quote:That CAN happen, but people with no pain can make wrong choices to.
Of course. Did I say otherwise?
quote:There's no guarantee that traditional pastoring is in line with the True God's healing plans.
Of course. Did I say otherwise?
Mike, you're stating the obvious. Maybe this is another avoidance technique. Rather than get to the issues (whatever they may be -- I don't even know), you fabricate disagreement where there is none.
quote:I choose, both for pain avoidance and for seeking God's pleasurable rewards, to persue the non-traditional plan He has made available. I try my best to put my ego aside and minister to needs as I see them.
If I am in this for ego gratification, I don't receive it. Who is it here who slaps me on the back and strokes my ego? I get ego attacks here all the time.
Yeah, sort of. But, for some inexplicable reason, you feel validated by that. Since everyone thinks you're wrong, you must be right.
quote:Socks is a nice guy, but when he is challenged more than he is accustomed to, his flesh can sin too.
What's up with this? Are you envious of his popularity? Otherwise, this attack makes no sense.
quote:I see people here gravitate from one set of heros to worship (vpw lcm) to others, like socks, or BG Leonard, or Kenyon, of Bullinger, or Blly Graham...
I hadn't noticed that at all. Quoting Kenyon, or Bullinger, or Leonard, or Graham, or socks (how did you make this list and Rafael didn't?) does not equal worship. It only acknowledges the contributions others have made.
You may not have said it (what I negated in my comments) but you implied it quite loudly, IMO. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.
***
Oh, laleo, it was a MILD attack socks made, and I said that so that socks could see it, and that I brushed it off. I like him too. You are too serious.
***
Quoting someone does not constitute worship, but when you said of socks "Whatever he said to you, you likely deserved it" it reminded me of how a Limb Leader would defend a Twig leader if I were to complain of the twig leaders mis-treatment, in that Limb leaders's worship of the Way tree perfection. Your unqualified support of socks resembled the unqualified support I saw vpw worshippers display in the past. When I see a red flag I never ignore it, and I SOMETIMES speak up to see how good my eyesight is.
***
Instead of probing my flaws, look at your own, and see if you're not repeating past mistakes.
I'd rather discuss the contents of the books than the contents of your heart or mine. Neither of us are qualified to be real psychologists, and I suspect Internet psychologists are even more suspect than radio ones. There has to be a much better communication, like in person and for a long time, before that kid of probing yu want to do with me is appropriate. It also helps to know God's Word very well.
This just in: I looked and saw that socks mild attack was on the other thread, WW's mirror thread like this one.
I can now see why my comment about him threw you a little. If his comment had occured right above your post, then my minimal response to him (within my response to you) would have been more appropriate.
Still, please lighten up and relax. :)--> I have good news to share: the books are still what they used to be, a wonderfully positive view into the Father's heart which Jesus Christ perfectly reflected, and more.
You can comment on anything you want, but your comments suggest to me a lack of comprehension.
You NEVER ignore a "red flag" yet you say I'm the serious one. That's just funny. Maybe you took that swipe at socks so you could get the last word in. That's my guess. Anyway, my "unqualified" support only illustrates that I've read your posts and I've read socks's posts. He has more credibility with me than you do. It has nothing to do with hierarchy.
Anyway, probing for flaws is in my nature, qualified or not. I think I'll continue doing it because I enjoy it so much. And you provide such an interesting case study.
My diagnosis is eye strain.
By the way, I'd talk to you about the books, if I had the least indication that we would be having a conversation rather than you subjecting me to a lecture. Otherwise, I'd just as soon stick with the armchair psychology, thanks anyway.
P.S. Just got your socks message. Okay, that makes more sense. Couldn't figure out why you were dragging him into it.
We have a foot of snow here, so I'm housebound for the moment. You'll be off the hook soon enough, when I find something else of interest. :)-->
You wrote: "How does studying PFAL defeat death, Mike? We will all face death one day, unless the return comes first, no?"
PFAL stands for ( and I'm sure you know, but it's worth spelling it out) Power for Abundant Living. Death is the opposite of living, it stops life. The power God wants us to have is the power to stop that which limits abundance of life.
With all nine manifestations in operation in the Body of Christ death can be avoided, because it's always against God's will, and God will always supply the information and the power to defeat death.
The reason we say we face death is because no one has taped into this power God supplies in Christ to it's fullest. It's been available in one sense, yet elusive for 2000 years. PFAL is God's move to remove that elusiveness through the most up front, all inclusive, yet simple teaching of how that power can be finally put into operation.
The Return of Christ, I'm learning, is a multifaceted broad event, comprising of many mini "returns." When you, that is to say Christ in you, returns to this written teaching in the PFAL books he can then receive the nourishment needed to rise up and conquer death in your life. You can do this because the way God designed this set of events is there is now, for the first time in history, not only the teaching necessary, but also the community of other grads who can do it with you, with us, and together our believing can rise to that perfectly renewed mind. Where one grad fails, another can help lift him up, and he another in return.
The teaching is all in place ready to be tapped into deeper than it was the first time around, the times are ripe politically with the freedom of religion and expression that now reigns like never before, the communication is all in place, the travel technology, the health technology to give us life spans that can reach long enough to learn enough to believe enough, etc.
These are all things that the first century was lacking. They had a fading memory of the one man who went all the way with the believing and power. They had the difficulty of receiving the revelation of the Mystery counter to all tradition. They had limited life spans, travel, and communication. They had political repression.
We have it all in place except for one thing: we have been temporarily talked out of using what we have. But that's changing. The time of our return to God's revelation is at hand. It's time to see Jesus Christ NOW, by becoming like him through this Word we've been given.
When we return to PFAL we learn how to see him and his perfect example of perfect believing. The time for waiting passively for Christ's return is over. We can return to God and see NOW. The time to see death defeated has arrived. Who wants to be among the first to believe (act) and see?
THAT's how studying PFAL will defeat death.
***
You wrote: "Living in fear of the adversary limits God and closes our eyes to life, Mike. I don't 'close my eyes to the adversary', I simply don't fear him."
I agree. Fearing the adversary is not what God teaches us. The context that I brought that up in was how God is limited at times by people's lack of detailed knowledge and inability to spot the adversary's influence. There is a conflict between Him and the adversary, but many will deny this as medieval superstition. The beginning of this context my remarks appeared in was how people OFTEN, even here, think that guidance by having holy spirit is cannot thwarted by counterfeit spirits. It's often put forth here that we can, by simple exercise of our will, tap in to pure direct spiritual guidance.
It's good to know the adversary's methods, not to fear him, but have a healthy respect for how he thwarts our guidance. By paying close attention to what God provided in PFAL we can get that guidance, reject the false guidance, see Christ, become like him, do the things he did, and ultimately see death defeated. This is our power for abundant living. It's LIFE!
You apparently do not understand the manifestation of what God can bring to pass on the inside.
The first century people had more than you know. More then vp knew. More then you can grasp being limited to pfal (you aren't doing pfal anyway but your own version of it) and trying to make it work and give life.
Maybe you should check out the schools of thought at the time of Jesus's life. What he learned as he was growing up. It was more then just learning the scriptures and the law.
You manifest what's on the inside of you all the time. Especially when you speak. Your words are a manifestion of what is in your mind.
The manifestation of the spirit of God is listed in corinthians. The manifestion does not give Life. That is reserved for God alone. He gives Life, a gift from God. And there are manifestations of that gift.
You can check what you are manifesting and see if it's from God if it produces Godly results. Godly results are also defined in many parts of the bible.
Simply put-let's say a truck backs up to a dock. The driver hands you a manifest of what's inside that truck. When you open that truck you can see if the manifest agrees with what's inside.
You are unloading your truck. Is it from God? Are there godly results?
Are you manifesting from the Spirit of God? Or from something else.
You can also manifest what's on your mind. Everyone does that when they speak or act. Nothing wrong with that.
My problem with this stuff as I stated in prev posts, is there is serious error with this stuff at the core of what vpw said.
His statement " sincerity is no guarantee for truth" is just plain false and anti scriptural.
Sincerity, Paul pointed out , is the leaven to be mixed with the word. In addition, the dispensationalism of VPW, demeaned the teachings of Jesus, as pointed out by another guy on another thread.
You know Mike, we are not called to be masters of pfal doctrine, but followers of the master Jesus Christ. The focus here is not right.
Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'. Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL. Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty. Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval. Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL. Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
Now we return you to our regularly scheduled program...
You seem have very little willingness to debate these issues with me so you resort to vain repetitions. Allow me to engage you in a deeper way here. I will comment on every line of your paste job.
***
... ...Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Yes. That's my way of putting it, with the qualifier that it's the written form of PFAL, the book and magazine form, and that it is addressed to us grads.
***
... ...Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.
Yes, but the "we" here is Older Leader Grads (OLGs) of PFAL who have already spend a lot of time with our KJVs, many other teachings, and field experience, and not enough time with PFAL. For OLGs without that background, this statement of yours, Tom, is false.
Actually, we OLGs do most certainly need, not only the assumed background mentioned above, but we also need the many, many, many KJV verses quoted in the pages of PFAL. Without those those verses, and the knowledge of where they came from, then Tom, your statement is wrong.
I might add here that an occasional reach for our KJVs for review, or context, or to follow up on a suggested reference in PFAL is certainly in order.
For instance, in GMWD pages 91-92 contain a reference to Jeremiah 36: 23 and a summary paragraph of many KJV verses surrounding it. This is not a direct order to read those many verses, but I would take it as an essential suggestion. Once I've done that a few times, THEN I don't need to go there any more for a long while.
In other words, my "Yes" to the above is so qualified, that I'd say, Tom, your line here is an extreme over-abbreviation. You do not do my message justice.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God,
Yes, but that's "Word" with a capital "W."
***
... ...that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Again, that "us" is OLGs with tons of exposure to KJV and other learning as mentioned above.
***
... ...Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away)... ...
So far so good. However this doesn't explain what that 'Table of Challenge' is, so it's poor writing on your part, Tom. Again, it's an over-abbreviation. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
This line is complete hogwash!
This either demonstrates a complete ignorance of what you write, Tom, or a deliberate attempt to smear me. I've written hundreds of lines on the 'Table of Challenge' and I dare you to produce the source of this, or I'll call it slander.
Tom, I could challenge you to a debate, you and you alone, in real time to face my Table of Challenge. We could do it on a telephone with a tape recorder running. Or we could do it in any other way that would assure that you receive no outside help. You have not read anything at all about this topic and are ignorant of what it means. Before I do make this challenge, though, you must demonstrate to me that you did this out of ignorance, and not in a deliberate attempt to smear me, AND that you have gone back and educated yourself by re-reading at least some of what I have actually written on this topic.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
This discounts the reality of Christ in me and Christ in any grad who comes back to PFAL and learns more deeply from it. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Yes. But only for those revelations that are from the True God, i.e. the written forms of PFAL. Those revelations are of God and not of Dr.
This would be true of betraying any true revelation to any human being. If I betray a revelation from the True God to Tom Strange, then I betray the True God.
***
... ...You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Yes, with the understanding that "You" is an OLG.
***
... ...Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
No. Study with the intent to MASTER the written PFAL will bring a student closer to that victory, though. That victory will soon be complete, because the master is at hand.
You wrote: "The first century people had more than you know. More then vp knew. More then you can grasp being limited to pfal (you aren't doing pfal anyway but your own version of it) and trying to make it work and give life."
But without having mastered it, how can you claim to know this. You know TVT mostly.
***
You wrote: "Maybe you should check out the schools of thought at the time of Jesus's life. What he learned as he was growing up. It was more then just learning the scriptures and the law."
God deemed Jesus' youth mostly inconsequential, and that's why He didn't have that recorded in the scriptures. What He does have recorded is that Jesus was subject to his parents. In oriental customs that means he took up and studied the family business, and he studied the scriptures.
What IS important is how just after his youth Jesus handled the counterfeit visions he had in the desert with his mastery of what was written in those scriptures.
***
The manifestations of holy spirit are to build up. When tongues with interpretation or prophesy are properly operated in the church is built up much like words spoken from the flesh mind, except there is a supernatural edge to them. They are especially appropriate, more appropriate than the flesh mind could conjure.
Speaking in tongues builds up the spirit in ways that fleshly mind exercises cannot. There's nothing wrong with the mind being built up by the proper exercises, but they don't built up the spirit.
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Mike
Hello Abigail,
My coat came back from the cleaners unscathed. (I hate it when that happens
:D-->.)
You wrote: "If you were to witness to someone who had never heard of TWI, VPW, or PFAL, would you take them to the PFAL book or the Bible?"
In answer to your question, I show them what they can relate to, like a Gideon Bible. I think there is only one person these last 7 years who I tried to skip around and get straight to PFAL with. There may have been another, but I forget. I would LIKE to be able to do it the faster way, but few can handle it. Few GRADS can handle it.
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Mike
Oops, Abigail, we're posting simultaneously. I haven't read your second post yet.
And as usual, time is running short.
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Mike
def59,
You wrote: "I think vpw was afraid we all would go out and really start looking at the scriptures and start coming up with different conclusions. That's why he started to the corps, to keep us all in line."
I used to think that exact same thing too, and that's one of the BIG reasons I never went Corps.
I did my best for 27 years (on and off) to check out the scriptures against his teaching. He seemed to pass all my tests...eventually. Before JCNG came out I had collected more scriptures to support Dr's thesis than are in that book.
I eventualy dropped my suspicion of Dr having that fear as I met several brainy people who Dr refused to let in the Corps. After that I suspected that for SOME people Dr used the Corps to keep those people off the field and messing it up, at least for a while.
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Mike
You wrote: "That's a big IF, Mike. Especially when one considers..."
I fully realize that it's a big IF and have thought it through as best as I before placing my bet. I also fully realize that the alternative is a big bleak blank.
It's either a set of PFAL texts on my Table of Challenge, or it's a pile of air, remembering that my challenge with that table is a standard that is unaltered and unedited in any way.
And yes, I've fully considered the complications as you mentioned them. I've posted here several times that I had a full ten year head start in that area. I've brought into my considerations as much as I could find in the KJV about men of God who screwed up, and I've tried my best to turn a blind eye to most of what our culture's shifting sands of pop psychology has to say about things like that.
***
You wrote, quoting me: "If he is not God's spokesman, then who is? the KJV translators and versionators? You? Do you take your word for it as you pick and choose among translations, versions, and as you pick various Bible scholars who help you with a difficult verse or two or a thousand?"
Then you asked: "How about holy spirit?"
What about unholy spirit? The counterfeit, by definition, looks very good to the untrained eye. Where do we get that training? PFAL!
***
You wrote: "...it really makes little difference to me where the comma is placed. Its just a matter of living simply and kindly with healthy boundaries in place."
I see what you are saying. Getting along with people is not the whole story though. It makes a huge difference how the details stack up if we want to correct this broken universe filled with sickness and death. How is getting along with people ever going to help defeat death?
***
You wrote, again quoting me: "God can pretty well only draw these kinds of people."
You then retorted with: "Gee, you sure do limit God."
No, God limits Himself in some ways. He can't lie or break His own laws, like in areas where free will is involved. If people decide to not put God first, then the adversary, being the god who was given control of the senses realm, has a much better chance of deceptively convincing a person to resist God's drawing.
Closing our eyes to the adversary will not limit his power. Jesus took him on full face and was the victor.
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laleo
Socks? Condescending and mocking? I like socks. I think he's one of the friendliest posters at GS, if not the friendliest. Whatever he said to you, you likely deserved it.
Anyway, yes, you are self-promoting. Maybe you don't understand the definition of the term. Just because what you're promoting isn't original (although, in your case, even though you refer back to PFAL, I think your take on it is very unique), it doesn't mean you aren't promoting it for personal gain. Not necessarily monetary gain. More like ego-validation.
I think you cite PFAL to give yourself credibility. Without attaching your work to Wierwille's, you wouldn't have an audience. If Rafael were to comment, I think he'd place you somewhere in Dante's 8th circle of Hell with all the other panderers, and seducers, and hypocrites. Just a guess.
I don't understand you, Mike. You talk, but don't listen, as if you've heard it all. Years ago, as a WOW, we had a local pastor who used to visit our fellowships. He used to annoy me because he was often probing for some sort of trauma in our lives that might explain our attraction to The Way. He thought we spent so much time "in the word" to cover up and alleviate some unresolved pain. When I read your posts, I read them through the eyes of that pastor.
Fixing typos
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Mike
Unresolved pain does not automatically mean that a person's search for relief will be illegitimate.
That CAN happen, but people with no pain can make wrong choices too.
There's no guarantee that traditional pastoring is in line with the True God's healing plans.
I choose, both for pain avoidance and for seeking God's pleasurable rewards, to persue the non-traditional plan He has made available. I try my best to put my ego aside and minister to needs as I see them.
If I am in this for ego gratification, I don't receive it. Who is it here who slaps me on the back and strokes my ego? I get ego attacks here all the time.
Socks is a nice guy, but when he is challenged more than he is accustomed to, his flesh can sin too.
I see people here gravitate from one set of heros to worship (like vpw, lcm, some limb leader) to others, like socks, or BG Leonard, or Kenyon, of Bullinger, or Billy Graham...
I can appreciate many people's good qualities, but I try to remember that cursed is the man who trusts in man. I did that too with vpw for those 27 years while many others were worshipping him, before I came back to PFAL. It's his writings that I see are bigger than him and that I fully embrace.
VPW also thought that the written PFAL was bigger than him: he wished he was the man he knew to be.
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laleo
Of course. Did I say otherwise?
Of course. Did I say otherwise?
Mike, you're stating the obvious. Maybe this is another avoidance technique. Rather than get to the issues (whatever they may be -- I don't even know), you fabricate disagreement where there is none.
Yeah, sort of. But, for some inexplicable reason, you feel validated by that. Since everyone thinks you're wrong, you must be right.What's up with this? Are you envious of his popularity? Otherwise, this attack makes no sense.I hadn't noticed that at all. Quoting Kenyon, or Bullinger, or Leonard, or Graham, or socks (how did you make this list and Rafael didn't?) does not equal worship. It only acknowledges the contributions others have made.
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Mike
laleo,
My you sure are the probing one.
***
Do you have to say otherwise for me to comment?
You may not have said it (what I negated in my comments) but you implied it quite loudly, IMO. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.
***
Oh, laleo, it was a MILD attack socks made, and I said that so that socks could see it, and that I brushed it off. I like him too. You are too serious.
***
Quoting someone does not constitute worship, but when you said of socks "Whatever he said to you, you likely deserved it" it reminded me of how a Limb Leader would defend a Twig leader if I were to complain of the twig leaders mis-treatment, in that Limb leaders's worship of the Way tree perfection. Your unqualified support of socks resembled the unqualified support I saw vpw worshippers display in the past. When I see a red flag I never ignore it, and I SOMETIMES speak up to see how good my eyesight is.
***
Instead of probing my flaws, look at your own, and see if you're not repeating past mistakes.
I'd rather discuss the contents of the books than the contents of your heart or mine. Neither of us are qualified to be real psychologists, and I suspect Internet psychologists are even more suspect than radio ones. There has to be a much better communication, like in person and for a long time, before that kid of probing yu want to do with me is appropriate. It also helps to know God's Word very well.
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Mike
laleo,
This just in: I looked and saw that socks mild attack was on the other thread, WW's mirror thread like this one.
I can now see why my comment about him threw you a little. If his comment had occured right above your post, then my minimal response to him (within my response to you) would have been more appropriate.
Still, please lighten up and relax.
:)--> I have good news to share: the books are still what they used to be, a wonderfully positive view into the Father's heart which Jesus Christ perfectly reflected, and more.
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laleo
Probing? Yes. Serious? Hardly.
You can comment on anything you want, but your comments suggest to me a lack of comprehension.
You NEVER ignore a "red flag" yet you say I'm the serious one. That's just funny. Maybe you took that swipe at socks so you could get the last word in. That's my guess. Anyway, my "unqualified" support only illustrates that I've read your posts and I've read socks's posts. He has more credibility with me than you do. It has nothing to do with hierarchy.
Anyway, probing for flaws is in my nature, qualified or not. I think I'll continue doing it because I enjoy it so much. And you provide such an interesting case study.
My diagnosis is eye strain.
By the way, I'd talk to you about the books, if I had the least indication that we would be having a conversation rather than you subjecting me to a lecture. Otherwise, I'd just as soon stick with the armchair psychology, thanks anyway.
P.S. Just got your socks message. Okay, that makes more sense. Couldn't figure out why you were dragging him into it.
We have a foot of snow here, so I'm housebound for the moment. You'll be off the hook soon enough, when I find something else of interest.
:)-->
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Mike
laleo,
We posted simultaneously, so I wanted to point out an additional post to you above.
:)-->
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Abigail
"How is getting along with people ever going to help defeat death?"
How does studying PFAL defeat death, Mike? We will all face death one day, unless the return comes first, no?
"Closing our eyes to the adversary will not limit his power. Jesus took him on full face and was the victor."
Living in fear of the adversary limits God and closes our eyes to life, Mike. I don't "close my eyes to the adversary", I simply don't fear him.
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Mike
Abigail,
You wrote: "How does studying PFAL defeat death, Mike? We will all face death one day, unless the return comes first, no?"
PFAL stands for ( and I'm sure you know, but it's worth spelling it out) Power for Abundant Living. Death is the opposite of living, it stops life. The power God wants us to have is the power to stop that which limits abundance of life.
With all nine manifestations in operation in the Body of Christ death can be avoided, because it's always against God's will, and God will always supply the information and the power to defeat death.
The reason we say we face death is because no one has taped into this power God supplies in Christ to it's fullest. It's been available in one sense, yet elusive for 2000 years. PFAL is God's move to remove that elusiveness through the most up front, all inclusive, yet simple teaching of how that power can be finally put into operation.
The Return of Christ, I'm learning, is a multifaceted broad event, comprising of many mini "returns." When you, that is to say Christ in you, returns to this written teaching in the PFAL books he can then receive the nourishment needed to rise up and conquer death in your life. You can do this because the way God designed this set of events is there is now, for the first time in history, not only the teaching necessary, but also the community of other grads who can do it with you, with us, and together our believing can rise to that perfectly renewed mind. Where one grad fails, another can help lift him up, and he another in return.
The teaching is all in place ready to be tapped into deeper than it was the first time around, the times are ripe politically with the freedom of religion and expression that now reigns like never before, the communication is all in place, the travel technology, the health technology to give us life spans that can reach long enough to learn enough to believe enough, etc.
These are all things that the first century was lacking. They had a fading memory of the one man who went all the way with the believing and power. They had the difficulty of receiving the revelation of the Mystery counter to all tradition. They had limited life spans, travel, and communication. They had political repression.
We have it all in place except for one thing: we have been temporarily talked out of using what we have. But that's changing. The time of our return to God's revelation is at hand. It's time to see Jesus Christ NOW, by becoming like him through this Word we've been given.
When we return to PFAL we learn how to see him and his perfect example of perfect believing. The time for waiting passively for Christ's return is over. We can return to God and see NOW. The time to see death defeated has arrived. Who wants to be among the first to believe (act) and see?
THAT's how studying PFAL will defeat death.
***
You wrote: "Living in fear of the adversary limits God and closes our eyes to life, Mike. I don't 'close my eyes to the adversary', I simply don't fear him."
I agree. Fearing the adversary is not what God teaches us. The context that I brought that up in was how God is limited at times by people's lack of detailed knowledge and inability to spot the adversary's influence. There is a conflict between Him and the adversary, but many will deny this as medieval superstition. The beginning of this context my remarks appeared in was how people OFTEN, even here, think that guidance by having holy spirit is cannot thwarted by counterfeit spirits. It's often put forth here that we can, by simple exercise of our will, tap in to pure direct spiritual guidance.
It's good to know the adversary's methods, not to fear him, but have a healthy respect for how he thwarts our guidance. By paying close attention to what God provided in PFAL we can get that guidance, reject the false guidance, see Christ, become like him, do the things he did, and ultimately see death defeated. This is our power for abundant living. It's LIFE!
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Vertical Limit
You apparently do not understand the manifestation of what God can bring to pass on the inside.
The first century people had more than you know. More then vp knew. More then you can grasp being limited to pfal (you aren't doing pfal anyway but your own version of it) and trying to make it work and give life.
Maybe you should check out the schools of thought at the time of Jesus's life. What he learned as he was growing up. It was more then just learning the scriptures and the law.
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fortunateone
I liked PFAL except for the errors and bad jokes
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Vertical Limit
Let me give a "pro pfal" def. of manifestation.
You manifest what's on the inside of you all the time. Especially when you speak. Your words are a manifestion of what is in your mind.
The manifestation of the spirit of God is listed in corinthians. The manifestion does not give Life. That is reserved for God alone. He gives Life, a gift from God. And there are manifestations of that gift.
You can check what you are manifesting and see if it's from God if it produces Godly results. Godly results are also defined in many parts of the bible.
Simply put-let's say a truck backs up to a dock. The driver hands you a manifest of what's inside that truck. When you open that truck you can see if the manifest agrees with what's inside.
You are unloading your truck. Is it from God? Are there godly results?
Are you manifesting from the Spirit of God? Or from something else.
You can also manifest what's on your mind. Everyone does that when they speak or act. Nothing wrong with that.
Simple enough?
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sky4it
Mike:
Im curious as to just what the attraction is.
My problem with this stuff as I stated in prev posts, is there is serious error with this stuff at the core of what vpw said.
His statement " sincerity is no guarantee for truth" is just plain false and anti scriptural.
Sincerity, Paul pointed out , is the leaven to be mixed with the word. In addition, the dispensationalism of VPW, demeaned the teachings of Jesus, as pointed out by another guy on another thread.
You know Mike, we are not called to be masters of pfal doctrine, but followers of the master Jesus Christ. The focus here is not right.
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Tom Strange
gosh... I thought this might be a different kind of thread but I (sadly) see that it would more aptly be titled
"I am a martyr for PLAF by Mike"...
oh well, the football game looks interesting...
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Tom Strange
And now a word from our sponsors...
Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'. Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL. Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God, that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty. Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away) so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval. Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God. You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL. Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
Now we return you to our regularly scheduled program...
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Mike
Tom Strange,
You seem have very little willingness to debate these issues with me so you resort to vain repetitions. Allow me to engage you in a deeper way here. I will comment on every line of your paste job.
***
... ...Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'.
Yes. That's my way of putting it, with the qualifier that it's the written form of PFAL, the book and magazine form, and that it is addressed to us grads.
***
... ...Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL.
Yes, but the "we" here is Older Leader Grads (OLGs) of PFAL who have already spend a lot of time with our KJVs, many other teachings, and field experience, and not enough time with PFAL. For OLGs without that background, this statement of yours, Tom, is false.
Actually, we OLGs do most certainly need, not only the assumed background mentioned above, but we also need the many, many, many KJV verses quoted in the pages of PFAL. Without those those verses, and the knowledge of where they came from, then Tom, your statement is wrong.
I might add here that an occasional reach for our KJVs for review, or context, or to follow up on a suggested reference in PFAL is certainly in order.
For instance, in GMWD pages 91-92 contain a reference to Jeremiah 36: 23 and a summary paragraph of many KJV verses surrounding it. This is not a direct order to read those many verses, but I would take it as an essential suggestion. Once I've done that a few times, THEN I don't need to go there any more for a long while.
In other words, my "Yes" to the above is so qualified, that I'd say, Tom, your line here is an extreme over-abbreviation. You do not do my message justice.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God,
Yes, but that's "Word" with a capital "W."
***
... ...that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty.
Again, that "us" is OLGs with tons of exposure to KJV and other learning as mentioned above.
***
... ...Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away)... ...
So far so good. However this doesn't explain what that 'Table of Challenge' is, so it's poor writing on your part, Tom. Again, it's an over-abbreviation. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval.
This line is complete hogwash!
This either demonstrates a complete ignorance of what you write, Tom, or a deliberate attempt to smear me. I've written hundreds of lines on the 'Table of Challenge' and I dare you to produce the source of this, or I'll call it slander.
Tom, I could challenge you to a debate, you and you alone, in real time to face my Table of Challenge. We could do it on a telephone with a tape recorder running. Or we could do it in any other way that would assure that you receive no outside help. You have not read anything at all about this topic and are ignorant of what it means. Before I do make this challenge, though, you must demonstrate to me that you did this out of ignorance, and not in a deliberate attempt to smear me, AND that you have gone back and educated yourself by re-reading at least some of what I have actually written on this topic.
TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns.
This discounts the reality of Christ in me and Christ in any grad who comes back to PFAL and learns more deeply from it. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY.
***
... ...Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God.
Yes. But only for those revelations that are from the True God, i.e. the written forms of PFAL. Those revelations are of God and not of Dr.
This would be true of betraying any true revelation to any human being. If I betray a revelation from the True God to Tom Strange, then I betray the True God.
***
... ...You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL.
Yes, with the understanding that "You" is an OLG.
***
... ...Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death.
No. Study with the intent to MASTER the written PFAL will bring a student closer to that victory, though. That victory will soon be complete, because the master is at hand.
All in all, Tom, you misrepresent me greatly.
.
.
.
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WordWolf
Actually,
I thought you took PRIDE in your positions.
Nearly everything he said was a DIRECT QUOTE from one of your posts,
and Tom isn't changing the meanings.
He's just making a concise summary.
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Mike
I disagree that those disputed sections are direct quotes. They are over-abreviations, and context wrenched.
The line about "so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval" is a lie.
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Mike
Vertical Limit,
You wrote: "The first century people had more than you know. More then vp knew. More then you can grasp being limited to pfal (you aren't doing pfal anyway but your own version of it) and trying to make it work and give life."
But without having mastered it, how can you claim to know this. You know TVT mostly.
***
You wrote: "Maybe you should check out the schools of thought at the time of Jesus's life. What he learned as he was growing up. It was more then just learning the scriptures and the law."
God deemed Jesus' youth mostly inconsequential, and that's why He didn't have that recorded in the scriptures. What He does have recorded is that Jesus was subject to his parents. In oriental customs that means he took up and studied the family business, and he studied the scriptures.
What IS important is how just after his youth Jesus handled the counterfeit visions he had in the desert with his mastery of what was written in those scriptures.
***
The manifestations of holy spirit are to build up. When tongues with interpretation or prophesy are properly operated in the church is built up much like words spoken from the flesh mind, except there is a supernatural edge to them. They are especially appropriate, more appropriate than the flesh mind could conjure.
Speaking in tongues builds up the spirit in ways that fleshly mind exercises cannot. There's nothing wrong with the mind being built up by the proper exercises, but they don't built up the spirit.
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Mike
fortunateone,
You wrote: "I liked PFAL except for the errors and bad jokes"
I take it you mean the film class. What about the books, where the jokes are deleted?
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