quote:"Would we not dispute with someone who does not understand electricity and therefore says it is not real? "
quote:I read it several times. I can only surmise that I think I know what you said, but I am not sure if what you said is what you meant...
>>>>
Well I certainly would not give that someone a Koleman Kerosene lamp in lieu a flip a switch.
Dig The Clapper though!
God has many lamps of light to understand. A wood burning stove offers more heat than a 200 wat bulb of light. But the two hundred watt bulb offers more light.
Then we must consider a bon fire in ten degree noctunal gathering. Oh that is most fun while performing a low country boil and steamed oysters and a wonder of an evening the host of the scintillating stars and shivering conversations loaded with frosty breath and laughter.
No,i dun't understand electricity and how it works.
Just plug in and turn on.
Song
aaand post script Too Gray Now ~~~ certainly you must knowalllllllways listen to your woman
quote: Too often we look at them with our eyes of understanding and when WE fail to grasp the concept, we call it wrong.
God is greater than us — hence the title Lord, Savior, Creator, etc.
So while we may struggle with comprehension, we are not free to dismiss.
Would we not dispute with someone who does not understand electricity and therefore says it is not real?
Def, I won't argue how you put that last bit, but I will say that "our eyes of understanding" is all we have. I challenge you to explain an undrestanding that one can obtain outside of thier own.
Contray to what you seem to think, this is not a "God does not exist" post. If fact, this is possibly the clostest I have come to saying a God could exist. Other than all those times I have flat out said that a god could exist. ;)-->
The problem I think you and others and actually most of us are having is with the word "nothing" or "nothingness". There are actually two ways to think of this word or two definitions. One would be that of something not being apparent in this perticular time and place. The other would be "non-extistence". Now IMO one could think of God in both of those ways, for a couple of reasons. God could exist, outside of our frame of reference, in another place or just not apparent at this place and time. Then again so could unicorns, elves, Santa, and many other things.
If what many cosmologists are saying is true, Black holes being our link to an infinite universe or multi verse, then many think could be possible. We certainly have horses here on earth and they probably have ancestors with horns somewhere on them. In another universe there very well could be a jolly guy in a red and white suit, existing outside of time so that he could deliver presents to all in one night. He would just be existing outside of our ability to perceive, in another universe. We just don't know.
Then there is the "non-existence" side of nothing. Think of beyond the beginging, or outside of the universe. Go out past the realm of existence. No not there, keep going. What do you see? How can you explain it? Blackness? Whiteness? You can't explain it. It is outside of existence. To try and explain it would be paradoxical, for to explain it would be attributing meaning to something that exists outside of meaning. For to have meaning something must exist.
quote:Isaiah 55:8 -- "For my thoughts _are_ not your thoughts, neither _are_ your ways my ways, saith the LORD." ...and then there is;
John 4:24A -- "God _is_ Spirit".
Define those two statements, and you wouldn't be needing to ask the question!
quote:Condiscensio Anthropopathia, all that.
Maybe the reason we can't give God meaning without giving it human characteristics or words of human understanding is because God exists outside of our existence. Which from our perspective would be in "non-existence". Non-existence would be infinite. Although to say that again is a little problematic. Obviously, certain contradictions can't exist. A square circle for example.
OR
We could look at it in another way. A way in which (1 = 0) or (0 = 1). Think of a blank canvas. Most of us would say that there is nothing on it. It is white. We could also say the same with any other color. Now extend that canvas out infinitely so that all we see is that one color. You see nothing else. We wouldn't be able to tell where one thing starts and another begins. Infact from our perspective nothing else would be visible. As I said...
quote: If there is no distintion from one thing to another thing there is no way to seperate the one from the other. It is the same with everything and nothing.
Just absolute balckness. How far does it go? How close is it? We wouldn't be able to tell. Same with absolute whiteness etc.
Some may nothing is there, but we would say that because there is a singularity... a oneness. 1 (everything)= 0 (nothingness). The reality, I guess, would be oneness and the perspective would be nothingness.
That is how omni-presence would be. A oneness. A nothingness. It is OK to come to that realization. Or only in the spaces in between.
You know... the ancient philosophers went through some of the same arguments when they considered whether or not the cosmos existed within a void; and if the cosmos DID exit within a void, whether or not it was FALLING through the void.
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def59
The omni attributes of God are hard to fathom.
Too often we look at them with our eyes of understanding and when WE fail to grasp the concept, we call it wrong.
God is greater than us — hence the title Lord, Savior, Creator, etc.
So while we may struggle with comprehension, we are not free to dismiss.
Would we not dispute with someone who does not understand electricity and therefore says it is not real?
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Too Gray Now
Def,
Help me out with this one...
I read it several times. I can only surmise that I think I know what you said, but I am not sure if what you said is what you meant...
I know I have argued with my wife on occasion, and have found that we were arguing two entirely different points than what each other thought.
Don't wanna do that, here
:D-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
>>>>
Well I certainly would not give that someone a Koleman Kerosene lamp in lieu a flip a switch.
Dig The Clapper though!
God has many lamps of light to understand. A wood burning stove offers more heat than a 200 wat bulb of light. But the two hundred watt bulb offers more light.
Then we must consider a bon fire in ten degree noctunal gathering. Oh that is most fun while performing a low country boil and steamed oysters and a wonder of an evening the host of the scintillating stars and shivering conversations loaded with frosty breath and laughter.
No,i dun't understand electricity and how it works.
Just plug in and turn on.
Song
aaand post script Too Gray Now ~~~ certainly you must knowalllllllways listen to your woman
that is just omnigoodprudance!
ya only have so many ribs to spare!!!
Remember,
it's Ma-Ma ~~~
then Daddy.!
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lindyhopper
Def, I won't argue how you put that last bit, but I will say that "our eyes of understanding" is all we have. I challenge you to explain an undrestanding that one can obtain outside of thier own.
Contray to what you seem to think, this is not a "God does not exist" post. If fact, this is possibly the clostest I have come to saying a God could exist. Other than all those times I have flat out said that a god could exist.
;)-->
The problem I think you and others and actually most of us are having is with the word "nothing" or "nothingness". There are actually two ways to think of this word or two definitions. One would be that of something not being apparent in this perticular time and place. The other would be "non-extistence". Now IMO one could think of God in both of those ways, for a couple of reasons. God could exist, outside of our frame of reference, in another place or just not apparent at this place and time. Then again so could unicorns, elves, Santa, and many other things.
If what many cosmologists are saying is true, Black holes being our link to an infinite universe or multi verse, then many think could be possible. We certainly have horses here on earth and they probably have ancestors with horns somewhere on them. In another universe there very well could be a jolly guy in a red and white suit, existing outside of time so that he could deliver presents to all in one night. He would just be existing outside of our ability to perceive, in another universe. We just don't know.
Then there is the "non-existence" side of nothing. Think of beyond the beginging, or outside of the universe. Go out past the realm of existence. No not there, keep going. What do you see? How can you explain it? Blackness? Whiteness? You can't explain it. It is outside of existence. To try and explain it would be paradoxical, for to explain it would be attributing meaning to something that exists outside of meaning. For to have meaning something must exist.
Maybe the reason we can't give God meaning without giving it human characteristics or words of human understanding is because God exists outside of our existence. Which from our perspective would be in "non-existence". Non-existence would be infinite. Although to say that again is a little problematic. Obviously, certain contradictions can't exist. A square circle for example.
OR
We could look at it in another way. A way in which (1 = 0) or (0 = 1). Think of a blank canvas. Most of us would say that there is nothing on it. It is white. We could also say the same with any other color. Now extend that canvas out infinitely so that all we see is that one color. You see nothing else. We wouldn't be able to tell where one thing starts and another begins. Infact from our perspective nothing else would be visible. As I said...
Just absolute balckness. How far does it go? How close is it? We wouldn't be able to tell. Same with absolute whiteness etc.
Some may nothing is there, but we would say that because there is a singularity... a oneness. 1 (everything)= 0 (nothingness). The reality, I guess, would be oneness and the perspective would be nothingness.
That is how omni-presence would be. A oneness. A nothingness. It is OK to come to that realization. Or only in the spaces in between.
In between existence
outside of existence
in nothingness
non-extistence
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Steve Lortz
You know... the ancient philosophers went through some of the same arguments when they considered whether or not the cosmos existed within a void; and if the cosmos DID exit within a void, whether or not it was FALLING through the void.
Love,
Steve
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