Still trying to send people to eternal torment Def? I am glad you are not God. A collection of writings totally void of the inspired scriptures I might add, but that is fine Def keep posting.
Those might be extra-canonical Mark, but there's a great deal of Holy writ that supports those views. Even Paul wrote to the Ephesians that inheritance in the Kingdom is not a foregone conclusion. I know it contradicts the notion of salvation by grace, and complicates most of what we were taught and would like to believe, but--as VP said, I didn't write the book.
Ephesians 5:3-7
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking nor jesting, which are not convenient; but rather giving of thanks
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them
Like I said, it contradicts the doctrine of salvation by grace and all that, but there it is. And it's not the only passage of its kind. Check I Corinthians 6:9 & 10 and Galatians 5:19-21. Even the Apostle Paul, the champion of righteousness by faith, warned that sinful behaviour could result in a believer failing to inherit the kingdom of Heaven.
Personally, I have a copy of the Gnostic Gospels and I can't stomach most of it. The majority of it reads like baptized pagan mythology with the names of "virtues" like Faith and Truth being inserted in place of the Zeus, Apollo, Hera, and the rest of the Greco-Roman Pantheon.
Peace
JerryB
Rawk on Jerry.
When I first read Jonas' "The Gnostic Religion" it literally induced headaches.
I think just as much due to the theologian's writing style as anything contained in these strange new scriptures.
It's akin to listening to Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Tarkus" or "Brain Salad Surgery" for the first time. Weird...but cool.
Jerry I have posted over 20 pages of material on this thread some of which I have written. Yes, that is true, those that commit such immoral acts will miss out on the 1000 year millenial kingdom of Christ. This was never in quetion. However, saying that those who do not accept Jesus in their lifetime will experience eternal torment this I do not believe is scriptural. Actually, some people that call on and confess the name of Jesus during their lifetime may also miss out on this millenial kingdom of Christ as well. Since we are quoting scriptures here are a few additional ones to consider.
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
Luke 13:22-30
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir (in the Greek Kurios, which is the word Lord), open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
NIV
Jerry you are a newcomer to this thread. I appreciate and value your input and it is great that you have taken an interest in this thread. However I think you might benefit by reading some of my earlier posts here. The question is what takes place at the general ressurection of the unjust? Is the majority of mankind who have not called on the name of Jesus Christ exterminated? Is the majority of mankind tortured for eternity? Or does God have another plan? What I have postulated previously on this thread is that the Lake of Fire following the general resurrection of the unjust is one of purification. And that God may have a plan of reconciliation also for those who have not confessed Jesus in their lifetime. God may also have a plan for those who have confessed Jesus, yet apparently will also be excluded from Jesus' millenial kingdom.
What I have postulated previously on this thread is that the Lake of Fire following the general resurrection of the unjust is one of purification.
Mark,
this is precisly the Zoroastrian interpretation of the lake of fire - for reason of purification.
Zoroastrian eschatological/apocalyptic ideas contributed a major influence upon the formation of Jewish/Christian eschatology.
Revisiting the earlier, Zoroastrian idea behind the "lake of fire" - which was toward purification and universal salvation - may prove most beneficial to your case.
If you have access to a copy to an older edition of "The World Bible" - which is a compilation of excerpts from scriptures of the various major religions - it includes an excerpt describing the Zorastrian lake or river of fire, of people passing through it, and afterward a reuniting of old friends and loved ones.
I'll reproduce this section here if you haven't seen this.
Fine Danny. The Lake of Fire is somewhat mysterious anyway. My previous word study showed that the exact same Greek word found in "Lake of fire" was also used in Acts 2:3.
Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of "fire", and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
Here and in other usages of this exact same Greek word, benefit and purification seems to occur. My judgements are based on a study of scripture and the book of Enoch which I also believe is inspired of God. However, if you think it would be interesting please do share from the source that you mentioned. I am not familiar with this one. However, was this a religion from Persia? And when was this formulated? The prophet Daniel was part of the Persian empire. Could he have influenced this religion?
As I said before the "Lake of Fire" in the book of Revelation is a fire of purification. From the Greek text the word fire is the Greek word 'pur'. Below is a partial definition from Thayer's unabridged. I did not include the entire definition because it is a long one. This definition points out that "pur" has a similar word "pu" from the Sanskrit which means "to purify".
NT:4442
pur,
genitive puros, to (probably from Sanskrit pu, "to purify" (compare the German: fever); Vanicek (1877 f), Griechisch-Lateinisches Etymologisches W?rbuch, p. 541; Curtius (50 A.D.) (1879), sec. 385), from Homer (900 B.C.?) down; Hebrew 'eesh;
fire: Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 17:15; Mark 9:22; Luke 3:9,17; 9:54; John 15:6; Acts 2:19; 28:5; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 11:34; James 3:5; 5:3; Rev 8:5,7; 9:17,18; 11:5; 13:13; 14:18; 15:2; 16:8; 20:9;
Besides what we read in chapters 19 & 20 of the book of Revelation. Here are some other usages of this Greek word for fire "pur" from the New Testament. Please note in all the verses below I am including the English word which is translated from the Greek word "pur" surrounded by quotation marks. From reading these verses it should be more than obvious that in many usages this word "pur" refers to a fire of purification. I am not saying that this purification written about in the book of Revelation is a pleasant experience or without pain. Just like chastisement when we are wrong is sometimes painful. However, it is a necessary one for the reconciliation of man.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":
KJV
Matt 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".
KJV
Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.
KJV
Acts 2:3
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.
KJV
Rom 12:20
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".
KJV
Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".
Revelation 20:10 (KJV)- And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV
Interestingly the word brimstone is the Greek word with Strong's number below. Yes Oakspeare, brimstone apparently was regarded as having power to purify. See the Thayer's lexical definition below. We sure are learning new things. Thanks for your feed back.
NT:2303
theion, theiou, to
(apparently, the neuter of the adjective theios equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius (1879) Grundz?der Griechischen Etymologie, sec. 320 allies it with thuoo; compare the Latin fumus, English dust)),
Perhaps this is a matter of perspectives Mark, but it seems to me that most of the uses of the term fire in the verses you cited indicate destruction, not purification. The chaff is burned, not purified. The purification occurs before the fire, when the wheat is seperated from (sanctified from; purified from the influence of) the chaff. Then, having been removed from that which is good and worthy, the chaff is destroyed by fire.
Likewise, the passage in Corinthians clearly says that if any man's work is found unsorthy "he shall suffer loss". The loss suffered is due to works destroyed by fire.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in your statements about the meaning of the word "age". It may well be that 'eternal life' refers only to temporary citizenship in the coming Kingdom of Christ. And part of me is still cynical about the whole concept of the Return of Christ, but that's another thread.
I just thought I'd toss my two mites in the ring. Please pardon the disruption and carry on.
Another good question Oakspear. Actually, you and I fortunately have access to the Greek words behind the English. By checking your concordance you will see that the words ever and ever in the Greek are aion aion. These words in this verse should have been translated age and age and not ever and ever. Notice they do not say eternal and eternal. The bible translators would have more sense than that. If this means eternal, which it does not, how can you have two eternities? Wouldn't one be sufficient? When you check the usages of this word aion, Strong's number 165, you will see that aion is a period of time with a beginning, ending, and future. The word for "ever", "aion" in the Greek, should be age and some versions do in fact translate this word as such. Here are a few usages of this same Greek word aion found in Rev. 20:10.
Usages of "aion" that show "aion" to have an ending. The English word in quotation marks is "aion" in the Greek.
Matt 13:39-40
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?
KJV
Matt 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.
KJV
1 Cor 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought
KJV
1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.
KJV
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KJV
Below we see "aion" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "aion" is not synonymous with eternal.
Luke 1:70
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:
KJV
John 9:32
32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
KJV
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".
KJV
Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".
KJV
Eph 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
KJV
Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonymous with eternal.
Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.
KJV
Luke 18:30
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.
KJV
1 Cor 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:
KJV
Eph 2:7
7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.KJV
Heb 6:5
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,
KJV
And below we have usages of "aion" which show that it has a present time that is distinct from both the future and the past.
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.
KJV
Eph 1:21
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:
KJV
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
KJV
Are you gaining an understanding of this important word? With it saying age and age this looks to be a very long period of time, but this does not imply eternity. I am not suggesting that the devil's punishment is going to be easy or enjoyable. I also looked up the word for torment. Yes, this experience in the lake of fire will definitely cause the devil great pain. What exactly will occur I am not exactly sure and do not care to make a judgement at this time.
Jerry, for the verse that you quoted in Corinthians you forgot the rest of it. Below is the entire verse. Yes, fire means that ones bad works are destroyed. However, fire is still for purification. With the burning of the bad works one is left with only the good. Similar to when we get sick. If the germs causing our sickness are destroyed and our good bodily functions are kept intact, is this not a form of purification? And the context reads gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. Does not the one that works with gold or silver heat up the element to a great heat in order to remove the impurities from it?
Ps 12:6
6 And the words of the LORD are flawless,
like silver refined in a furnace of clay,
purified seven times.
NIV
1 Cor 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
this is precisly the Zoroastrian interpretation of the lake of fire - for reason of purification.
Dan, I find that assessment rather strange in light of what I have read about Zoroastrianism, in that a whole lot of the false teachings of Christendom's eternal torment doctrines have their roots in Zoroastrianism. Would you care to refute that? :)-->
I don't dispute what you say though since Mark and I agree that the lake of fire is a purification thing, but can you give me a reliable source for that statement?
From 'The Bible of the World" (Viking Press, 1949, p.632-33), from an excerpt of the Zoroastrian "Pahvali texts" entitled "The Resurrection"; apparently the equivalent of angels are employed in raising the dead; also, I recalled incorrectly about the "lake of fire" - it is a "river" of molten metal through which all pass; but the purpose, according to the Zoroastrian view, remains the same - to become "pure". Apparently the Zoroastrians believed in the punishment of souls, but in their view it was only temporary. In the end, the entirety of mankind become reunited and "immortal and everlasting":
quote:
"First, the bones of Gayomard are roused up, then those of Mashya and Mashyoi, then those of the rest of mankind...all men stand up; whoever is righteous and whoever is wicked, every human creature, they rouse from the spot where its life departs.
Afterwards, when all material living beings assume again their bodies and forms, then they assign them a single class...
Then is the assembly of the Savastaran, where all mankind will stand at this time; in that assembly every one sees his own good deeds and his own evil deeds; and then, in that assembly, a wicked man becomes as conspicuous as a white sheep among those which are black.
In that assembly whatever righteous man was a friend of a wicked one in the world, and the wicked man complains of him who is righteous, thus: "Why did he not make me acqainted, when in the world, with the good deeds which he practised himself?" if he who is righteous did not inform him, then it is necessary for him to suffer shame accordingly in that assembly.
Afterwards, they set the righteous man apart from the wicked; and then the righteous is for heaven, and they cast the wicked back to hell. Three days and nights they inflict punishment bodily in hell, and then he beholds bodily those three day's happiness in heaven. As it says that, on the day when the righteous man is parted from the wicked, the tears of everyone, thereupon, run down his legs.
When, after, they set apart a father from his consort, a brother from his brother, and a friend from his friend, they suffer, every one for his own deeds, and weep, the righteous for the wicked, and the wicked about himself; for there may be a father who is righteous and a son who is wicked, and there may be one brother who is righteous and one wicked.
Those for whose peculiar deeds it is appointed, such as Dahak and Frasiyav of Tur, and others of this sort, as those deserving death, undergo a punishment no other men undergo; they call it "the punishment of the three nights."
Among his producers of the renovation of the universe, those righteous men of whom it is written that they are living, fifteen men and fifteen damsels, will come to the assistance of the Soshyans. As Gokihar falls in the celestial sphere from a moonbeam to the earth, the distress of the earth becomes such-like as that of a sheep when a wolf falls upon it.
Afterwards, the fire and halo melt the metal of Shatvairo, in the hills and the mountains, and it remains on the earth like a river. Then all men will pass into that melted metal and will become pure; when one is righteous, then it seems to him just as though he walks continually in warm milk; but when wicked, then it seems to him in such manner as though, in the world, he walks continually in melted metal.
Afterwards, with the greatest affection, all men come together, father and son and brother and friend ask one another this: "Where hast thou been these many years, and what was the judgment upon they soul? Hast thou been righteous or wicked?" The first soul the body sees, it inquires of it with those words. All men become of one voice and administer loud praise to Ahura Mazda and the archangels.
...all men become immortal and everlasting. ..
For those interested in a decent and easy introduction and summation of Zoroastrian ideas, check out "Persian Mythology" by John R. Hinnells (1973, Hamlyn House), pp.49-70.
An excellent online resource is The Zoroastrian Archives, where all their scriptures are presented as well as various articles and glossaries.
So Dan, from your response, I gather that the people who argue that hell-fire damnation preachers are getting their idea based on Zoroastrianism are giving a false assessment on Zoroastrianism?
Well, I will be prepared to take your word for it since you are a gnostic and would know more than the non-gnostic would about gnosticism.
So Dan, from your response, I gather that the people who argue that hell-fire damnation preachers are getting their idea based on Zoroastrianism are giving a false assessment on Zoroastrianism?
Chuck,
My impression is that many Christians are not really all that familiar with Zoroastrianism.
I would think any ancient religion which teaches ideas about prophesied saviors being born to virgins, of angels, of a general resurrection of the dead and of apocalyptic events preceding such might attract a bit more attention and interest.
I have even heard the suggestion - I think from E. Martin's work and the Way's "Promised Seed" spin-off - that the "magi" who visited the Christ-child in Matthew may have been Zoroastrian priests. Interesting theory.
I would have thought more folks might have become curious enough to inquire: who were these Zoroastrians? what did they believe? what were their scriptures like?
As far as Zoroastrian ideas concerning judgment and punishment are concerned, I find their ultimate "universalist" outlook to be strikingly more gracious in its scope than the eternal damnation of sinners in traditional Christian teachings.
quote:
Well, I will be prepared to take your word for it since you are a gnostic and would know more than the non-gnostic would about gnosticism.
I'm flattered Chuck, but please don't take my word for it - it's always better to weigh within your own mind and heart concerning such matters.
I don't think I'm a "gnostic" in the sense that many non-gnostics (and perhaps a few gnostics)may construe such - a "salvation by knowledge".
I still believe that it is through God's very character of Goodness and Love which ultimately saves us all. We are saved by Who God is - not by who we are, or what we do or don't do.
Thanks for posting the material on Zoroastriansism. When were the Zorastriansism teachings written? Can you date them and the date of the popularity of this religion? Were they written by people from the Persian empire which had world dominance before the birth of Jesus? Was this the main religion of the Persian empire? Any other background that you know of?
We all see through a glass darkly now. Then face to face. We all believe we have the answers, but alot of what have is shadows.
We chase an elusive God, who hides from us to make us diligently seek him.
We hear rumors of another world and try to make sense from our disjointed view.
We can go on fighting or seek common ground. We are all in this journey together. And the more I go, the messier it gets.
We are in the dawn of a new age: The first society in the history of the world to live without the sacred, according to Phillip Yancey.
Living in a culture that denies the supernatural, makes historic cruelty abound. We can reduce life to its most basic structures, yet still fail to see the message that is there and consequences of our actions.
Getting back to our study of Universalism, an understanding of the word aeon is very important. Without an understanding of this word one will not understand universalism and the reconciliation of all men. They will mistakenly think that aeon means eternity, hence the punishment of the wicked will be eternal. However, aion means age and the adjective form of aion, aionion means age lasting. Hence, the punishment of sinful man has a time limit.
As explained in Marvin R. Vincent's, Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, [1864]), pp. 58-59 (underline emphasis mine DWS):
"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle said: 'The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one.' Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life aion is said to leave him or to consume away (II. v. 685; ad. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not 'a stationary and mechanical value'(De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached. ...The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
Mark,
Here's what my source said about this article.
"Your universalist friend quotes from a word study resource that is 140
years old. Due to research, scholars today have a better grasp of the
meaning of ancient words. The two best resources for word studies are:
1) The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) edited by
Kittel (10 volumes), and 2) Colin Brown's Dictionary of New Testament
Theology (3 vols.).
Both of these resources indicate that "aion" can be understood as a
designated period of time AS WELL AS "an indefinite past or future", "for ever" or "to all eternity" (Kittel, X, 198). Brown (III, 829) puts it this way: "A long time, duration of time, where both a specifically limited period of time as well as an unlimited period can be meant."
The sense of the word needs to be determined from the context of the
Could it be that the fire itself is a destructive force but results in a purification? The fire itself doesn't cause purification but results in purification. A forest fire destroys trees and other living things, but it clears away dead matter and criplled and diseased living things so that other things have room to grow.
In the matter of the devil, the fire destroys him but purifies the cosmos with the devil's removal.
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Those might be extra-canonical Mark, but there's a great deal of Holy writ that supports those views. Even Paul wrote to the Ephesians that inheritance in the Kingdom is not a foregone conclusion. I know it contradicts the notion of salvation by grace, and complicates most of what we were taught and would like to believe, but--as VP said, I didn't write the book.
Ephesians 5:3-7
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking nor jesting, which are not convenient; but rather giving of thanks
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them
Like I said, it contradicts the doctrine of salvation by grace and all that, but there it is. And it's not the only passage of its kind. Check I Corinthians 6:9 & 10 and Galatians 5:19-21. Even the Apostle Paul, the champion of righteousness by faith, warned that sinful behaviour could result in a believer failing to inherit the kingdom of Heaven.
Peace
JerryB
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TheInvisibleDan
Rawk on Jerry.
When I first read Jonas' "The Gnostic Religion" it literally induced headaches.
I think just as much due to the theologian's writing style as anything contained in these strange new scriptures.
It's akin to listening to Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Tarkus" or "Brain Salad Surgery" for the first time. Weird...but cool.
Danny
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Mark Sanguinetti
Jerry I have posted over 20 pages of material on this thread some of which I have written. Yes, that is true, those that commit such immoral acts will miss out on the 1000 year millenial kingdom of Christ. This was never in quetion. However, saying that those who do not accept Jesus in their lifetime will experience eternal torment this I do not believe is scriptural. Actually, some people that call on and confess the name of Jesus during their lifetime may also miss out on this millenial kingdom of Christ as well. Since we are quoting scriptures here are a few additional ones to consider.
Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV
Luke 13:22-30
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir (in the Greek Kurios, which is the word Lord), open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
NIV
Jerry you are a newcomer to this thread. I appreciate and value your input and it is great that you have taken an interest in this thread. However I think you might benefit by reading some of my earlier posts here. The question is what takes place at the general ressurection of the unjust? Is the majority of mankind who have not called on the name of Jesus Christ exterminated? Is the majority of mankind tortured for eternity? Or does God have another plan? What I have postulated previously on this thread is that the Lake of Fire following the general resurrection of the unjust is one of purification. And that God may have a plan of reconciliation also for those who have not confessed Jesus in their lifetime. God may also have a plan for those who have confessed Jesus, yet apparently will also be excluded from Jesus' millenial kingdom.
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TheInvisibleDan
Mark,
this is precisly the Zoroastrian interpretation of the lake of fire - for reason of purification.
Zoroastrian eschatological/apocalyptic ideas contributed a major influence upon the formation of Jewish/Christian eschatology.
Revisiting the earlier, Zoroastrian idea behind the "lake of fire" - which was toward purification and universal salvation - may prove most beneficial to your case.
If you have access to a copy to an older edition of "The World Bible" - which is a compilation of excerpts from scriptures of the various major religions - it includes an excerpt describing the Zorastrian lake or river of fire, of people passing through it, and afterward a reuniting of old friends and loved ones.
I'll reproduce this section here if you haven't seen this.
Danny
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Mark Sanguinetti
Fine Danny. The Lake of Fire is somewhat mysterious anyway. My previous word study showed that the exact same Greek word found in "Lake of fire" was also used in Acts 2:3.
Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of "fire", and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
Here and in other usages of this exact same Greek word, benefit and purification seems to occur. My judgements are based on a study of scripture and the book of Enoch which I also believe is inspired of God. However, if you think it would be interesting please do share from the source that you mentioned. I am not familiar with this one. However, was this a religion from Persia? And when was this formulated? The prophet Daniel was part of the Persian empire. Could he have influenced this religion?
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Mark Sanguinetti
As I said before the "Lake of Fire" in the book of Revelation is a fire of purification. From the Greek text the word fire is the Greek word 'pur'. Below is a partial definition from Thayer's unabridged. I did not include the entire definition because it is a long one. This definition points out that "pur" has a similar word "pu" from the Sanskrit which means "to purify".
NT:4442
pur,
genitive puros, to (probably from Sanskrit pu, "to purify" (compare the German: fever); Vanicek (1877 f), Griechisch-Lateinisches Etymologisches W?rbuch, p. 541; Curtius (50 A.D.) (1879), sec. 385), from Homer (900 B.C.?) down; Hebrew 'eesh;
fire: Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 17:15; Mark 9:22; Luke 3:9,17; 9:54; John 15:6; Acts 2:19; 28:5; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 11:34; James 3:5; 5:3; Rev 8:5,7; 9:17,18; 11:5; 13:13; 14:18; 15:2; 16:8; 20:9;
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)
Besides what we read in chapters 19 & 20 of the book of Revelation. Here are some other usages of this Greek word for fire "pur" from the New Testament. Please note in all the verses below I am including the English word which is translated from the Greek word "pur" surrounded by quotation marks. From reading these verses it should be more than obvious that in many usages this word "pur" refers to a fire of purification. I am not saying that this purification written about in the book of Revelation is a pleasant experience or without pain. Just like chastisement when we are wrong is sometimes painful. However, it is a necessary one for the reconciliation of man.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":
KJV
Matt 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".
KJV
Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.
KJV
Acts 2:3
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.
KJV
Rom 12:20
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".
KJV
Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".
KJV
Heb 12:29
29 For our God is a consuming “fire”.
KJV
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Oakspear
Revelation 20:10 (KJV)- And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV
Interestingly the word brimstone is the Greek word with Strong's number below. Yes Oakspeare, brimstone apparently was regarded as having power to purify. See the Thayer's lexical definition below. We sure are learning new things. Thanks for your feed back.
NT:2303
theion, theiou, to
(apparently, the neuter of the adjective theios equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius (1879) Grundz?der Griechischen Etymologie, sec. 320 allies it with thuoo; compare the Latin fumus, English dust)),
brimstone Luke 17:29; Rev 9:17 f; Rev 14:10; 19:20; (20:10); 21:8.
(Gen 19:24; Ps. 10:6 (11:6); Ezek 38:22; Homer (900 B.C.?), Iliad 16, 228; Odyssey 22, 481, 493; (Plato) Tim. Locr., p. 99 c.; Aelian (circa 180 A.D.) v. h. 13, 15 (16); Herodian, 8, 4, 26 (9 edition, Bekker).) *
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)
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Oakspear
Doesn't seem like purification from the context though. If so, why forever?
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Jbarrax
Perhaps this is a matter of perspectives Mark, but it seems to me that most of the uses of the term fire in the verses you cited indicate destruction, not purification. The chaff is burned, not purified. The purification occurs before the fire, when the wheat is seperated from (sanctified from; purified from the influence of) the chaff. Then, having been removed from that which is good and worthy, the chaff is destroyed by fire.
Likewise, the passage in Corinthians clearly says that if any man's work is found unsorthy "he shall suffer loss". The loss suffered is due to works destroyed by fire.
I'm not saying that you are wrong in your statements about the meaning of the word "age". It may well be that 'eternal life' refers only to temporary citizenship in the coming Kingdom of Christ. And part of me is still cynical about the whole concept of the Return of Christ, but that's another thread.
I just thought I'd toss my two mites in the ring. Please pardon the disruption and carry on.
Peace
JerryB
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Mark Sanguinetti
Another good question Oakspear. Actually, you and I fortunately have access to the Greek words behind the English. By checking your concordance you will see that the words ever and ever in the Greek are aion aion. These words in this verse should have been translated age and age and not ever and ever. Notice they do not say eternal and eternal. The bible translators would have more sense than that. If this means eternal, which it does not, how can you have two eternities? Wouldn't one be sufficient? When you check the usages of this word aion, Strong's number 165, you will see that aion is a period of time with a beginning, ending, and future. The word for "ever", "aion" in the Greek, should be age and some versions do in fact translate this word as such. Here are a few usages of this same Greek word aion found in Rev. 20:10.
Usages of "aion" that show "aion" to have an ending. The English word in quotation marks is "aion" in the Greek.
Matt 13:39-40
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?
KJV
Matt 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.
KJV
1 Cor 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought
KJV
1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.
KJV
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KJV
Below we see "aion" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "aion" is not synonymous with eternal.
Luke 1:70
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:
KJV
John 9:32
32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
KJV
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".
KJV
Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".
KJV
Eph 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
KJV
Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonymous with eternal.
Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.
KJV
Luke 18:30
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.
KJV
1 Cor 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:
KJV
Eph 2:7
7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.KJV
Heb 6:5
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,
KJV
And below we have usages of "aion" which show that it has a present time that is distinct from both the future and the past.
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.
KJV
Eph 1:21
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:
KJV
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
KJV
Are you gaining an understanding of this important word? With it saying age and age this looks to be a very long period of time, but this does not imply eternity. I am not suggesting that the devil's punishment is going to be easy or enjoyable. I also looked up the word for torment. Yes, this experience in the lake of fire will definitely cause the devil great pain. What exactly will occur I am not exactly sure and do not care to make a judgement at this time.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Jerry, for the verse that you quoted in Corinthians you forgot the rest of it. Below is the entire verse. Yes, fire means that ones bad works are destroyed. However, fire is still for purification. With the burning of the bad works one is left with only the good. Similar to when we get sick. If the germs causing our sickness are destroyed and our good bodily functions are kept intact, is this not a form of purification? And the context reads gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. Does not the one that works with gold or silver heat up the element to a great heat in order to remove the impurities from it?
Ps 12:6
6 And the words of the LORD are flawless,
like silver refined in a furnace of clay,
purified seven times.
NIV
1 Cor 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
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Jbarrax
Hmmm. Hmmm I say. Good point.
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CKnapp3
Invisible Dan said:
Dan, I find that assessment rather strange in light of what I have read about Zoroastrianism, in that a whole lot of the false teachings of Christendom's eternal torment doctrines have their roots in Zoroastrianism. Would you care to refute that?
:)-->
I don't dispute what you say though since Mark and I agree that the lake of fire is a purification thing, but can you give me a reliable source for that statement?
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Mark Sanguinetti
I second what Chuck just said. Please share with us your information about Zoroastrianism Danny.
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TheInvisibleDan
From 'The Bible of the World" (Viking Press, 1949, p.632-33), from an excerpt of the Zoroastrian "Pahvali texts" entitled "The Resurrection"; apparently the equivalent of angels are employed in raising the dead; also, I recalled incorrectly about the "lake of fire" - it is a "river" of molten metal through which all pass; but the purpose, according to the Zoroastrian view, remains the same - to become "pure". Apparently the Zoroastrians believed in the punishment of souls, but in their view it was only temporary. In the end, the entirety of mankind become reunited and "immortal and everlasting":
For those interested in a decent and easy introduction and summation of Zoroastrian ideas, check out "Persian Mythology" by John R. Hinnells (1973, Hamlyn House), pp.49-70.
An excellent online resource is The Zoroastrian Archives, where all their scriptures are presented as well as various articles and glossaries.
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CKnapp3
So Dan, from your response, I gather that the people who argue that hell-fire damnation preachers are getting their idea based on Zoroastrianism are giving a false assessment on Zoroastrianism?
Well, I will be prepared to take your word for it since you are a gnostic and would know more than the non-gnostic would about gnosticism.
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TheInvisibleDan
Chuck,
My impression is that many Christians are not really all that familiar with Zoroastrianism.
I would think any ancient religion which teaches ideas about prophesied saviors being born to virgins, of angels, of a general resurrection of the dead and of apocalyptic events preceding such might attract a bit more attention and interest.
I have even heard the suggestion - I think from E. Martin's work and the Way's "Promised Seed" spin-off - that the "magi" who visited the Christ-child in Matthew may have been Zoroastrian priests. Interesting theory.
I would have thought more folks might have become curious enough to inquire: who were these Zoroastrians? what did they believe? what were their scriptures like?
As far as Zoroastrian ideas concerning judgment and punishment are concerned, I find their ultimate "universalist" outlook to be strikingly more gracious in its scope than the eternal damnation of sinners in traditional Christian teachings.
I'm flattered Chuck, but please don't take my word for it - it's always better to weigh within your own mind and heart concerning such matters.
I don't think I'm a "gnostic" in the sense that many non-gnostics (and perhaps a few gnostics)may construe such - a "salvation by knowledge".
I still believe that it is through God's very character of Goodness and Love which ultimately saves us all. We are saved by Who God is - not by who we are, or what we do or don't do.
Danny
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Danny:
Thanks for posting the material on Zoroastriansism. When were the Zorastriansism teachings written? Can you date them and the date of the popularity of this religion? Were they written by people from the Persian empire which had world dominance before the birth of Jesus? Was this the main religion of the Persian empire? Any other background that you know of?
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TheInvisibleDan
Mark,
On the dating of Zarathushtra, the link I cited earlier contains a couple articles on approximate dating, such as
http://www.avesta.org/zfaq.html
as well as a timeline -
http://www.avesta.org/timeline.htm
Judging from both articles, some of their literature was written earlier (approx.1200 BC); some of it compiled and written later (between 220-661 CE).
Danny
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def59
You know guys,
We all see through a glass darkly now. Then face to face. We all believe we have the answers, but alot of what have is shadows.
We chase an elusive God, who hides from us to make us diligently seek him.
We hear rumors of another world and try to make sense from our disjointed view.
We can go on fighting or seek common ground. We are all in this journey together. And the more I go, the messier it gets.
We are in the dawn of a new age: The first society in the history of the world to live without the sacred, according to Phillip Yancey.
Living in a culture that denies the supernatural, makes historic cruelty abound. We can reduce life to its most basic structures, yet still fail to see the message that is there and consequences of our actions.
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def59
Mark,
Here's what my source said about this article.
"Your universalist friend quotes from a word study resource that is 140
years old. Due to research, scholars today have a better grasp of the
meaning of ancient words. The two best resources for word studies are:
1) The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) edited by
Kittel (10 volumes), and 2) Colin Brown's Dictionary of New Testament
Theology (3 vols.).
Both of these resources indicate that "aion" can be understood as a
designated period of time AS WELL AS "an indefinite past or future", "for ever" or "to all eternity" (Kittel, X, 198). Brown (III, 829) puts it this way: "A long time, duration of time, where both a specifically limited period of time as well as an unlimited period can be meant."
The sense of the word needs to be determined from the context of the
passage.
I hope this helps.
Mark R. Fairchild, Ph.D.
Professor of Bible and Religion
Huntington College
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Biblefan Dave
Could it be that the fire itself is a destructive force but results in a purification? The fire itself doesn't cause purification but results in purification. A forest fire destroys trees and other living things, but it clears away dead matter and criplled and diseased living things so that other things have room to grow.
In the matter of the devil, the fire destroys him but purifies the cosmos with the devil's removal.
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def59
Hi Dave
Nice to see you came back.
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