Def, there are two kinds of people in this world. Your friends, and your enemies. You know doubt have forgiven your friends, but why haven't you forgiven your enemies? The bible says to love your enemies, and to do good unto those who hate you. When you are my enemy, I have done you good. I have assured you of your own salvation. And what thanks do I get for it? You have deliberately rubbed my nose in it. What good have you done me when I am YOUR enemy? NOTHING! You have refused to assure me of my own salvation, but instead have offered this rather ungodly dispute. So between you and I, who is the better person? I am convinced now that you actually hate yourself, so you coulnd't possibly love others. If fact you hate yourself so badly that when I bestow good blessings on you, you just plain reject them. Just like you have rejected Christ. If Christ meant anything to you, you would have been spreading the Gospel, but instead you spread threats of terror if one doesn't toe the line. I have told you once, and I'll tell you again, THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL!
If I say good things by the father of lies, like you charge me with, then by whom do you say good things?
Christ has therefore become of none effect by your life and attitude.
Are you saying the Son of God and Jesus are two different persons?
It's obvious that they are. Jesus was born of Mary. The Son of God always existed since he is God. Jesus died on the cross. The Son of God is immortal just as his father is. You Def are identifying with a carnal man rather than the spiritual man, which is a great part of your problem.
Are you saying the Son of God and Jesus are two different persons?
It's obvious that they are. Jesus was born of Mary. The Son of God always existed since he is God. Jesus died on the cross. The Son of God is immortal just as his father is. You Def are identifying with a carnal man rather than the spiritual man, which is a great part of your problem.
Ok, this is different than even the Way ever said. What is your basis for such a belief. And when it the context suggests that Jesus believes God is his father, not Joseph, what does that mean to you?
I have forgiven my enemies, Chuck, I have forgiven you.
Then that's settled, I am going to heaven, since God also forgives me. What? God is not going to forgive me? But you do? Are you better than God?
It is written, "What you bind on earth, I bind in heaven, and what you loose on earth, I shall loose in heaven".
Since you have forgiven me Def, you are bound by that decision. I have also forgiven you :)-->, and likewise, I am bound by that decision. Do you even look forward to meeting me in heaven? I do expect to see you there. In fact I expect to see everyone.
I see where your doctrine will get you into the soup you are in. You need to repent of this satanic doctrine you have been infected with.
Do not let your anger be your guide.
What, and take on a doctrine that says I will not be forgiven? What do you take me for? Stupid? I have repented of the things I need to repent of, and that's hatred towards my fellow man, something I don't think you have quite repented of yourself.
Am I being satanic because I have chosen to forgive everyone? If I forgive everyone by Satan, then by whom do you forgive everyone? Are you saying God will not have mercy on us all? Read Romans 11:32. You and I are also judged as unbelievers, in spite of our convictions.
Ok, this is different than even the Way ever said. What is your basis for such a belief. And when it the context suggests that Jesus believes God is his father, not Joseph, what does that mean to you?
Anyone else believe this?
Joseph may not be Jesus' natural father, but Jesus never denied he was the son of Joseph. Mary IS the natural mother of Jesus however, a Jesus that had a beginning. Like I said, you swear by the Son of Mary (who had a beginning and is mortal), and not by the Son of God (who had NO beginning and is IMMORTAL). You acknowledge the divinity of Christ well, but walk more after his human nature. Perhaps you also walk after your own flesh. You have to consider yourself dead in order to really live.
Why do you believe in the eternity of sin? Don't you know that it is written "he who is dead is FREE FROM SIN"? Will you ever acknowledge that there will be a time when Hitler will be free from sin? But you talk as if Hitler will be eternally wed to his sin. If that is so, then you will also remain in your sin as well. And so will all of us.
Chuck: YOU DEF are guilty of rank IDOLATRY!!!!! Jesus was not speaking of himself personally, but rather he was speaking in the personification of the Word of God, the same one that says that as all die in Adam, so shall all be made alive in Christ (something you don't agree with, I know). The words "for I am the Word of God" at the end of that sentence should be understood.
Def59: Which sentence are you speaking of, I have John 14 posted here
I can tell by that response that you are not very well educated. I was referring to John 14:6, the verse you were referring to. I had said that Jesus was speaking of the Word of God, not of himself personally. I could easily make that same identical quote and be just as right on. What? Does that mean salvation can only come by Chuck? NONSENSE!
Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life". The "way and the truth and the life" is not a who, but a what. And what is the "way and the truth and the life"? The Word of God, of course.
Yeah, I know, I know, Jesus is the Word made flesh, you don't have to remind me of that. But that is obviously a figure of speech, just like the "Word is God" is a figure of speech also. My words are me, and your words are you too.
Hey, remember the little taunt when we were kids? It goes: "Twinkle, Twinkle, little star, WHAT YOU SAY IS WHAT YOU ARE!" :P--> :D-->
I really hesitate to get dragged into this, but I must say Chuck, as a Unitarian, I don't see where you're coming from. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to distinguish between the person of Jesus and that of the Son of God. And I don't follow your logic. It seems to me that perhaps you are confusing eternity and immortality. God is eternal because He has neither beginning nor end. Jesus is immortal because he was born, and died, but lives on. According to the Apostle Paul, we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will also receive immortality. That doesn't mean we were never born, it just means we'll be delivered from death.
Getting back to our study of Universalism, an understanding of the word aeon is very important. Without an understanding of this word one will not understand universalism and the reconciliation of all men. They will mistakenly think that aeon means eternity, hence the punishment of the wicked will be eternal. However, aion means age and the adjective form of aion, aionion means age lasting. Hence, the punishment of sinful man has a time limit.
As explained in Marvin R. Vincent's, Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, [1864]), pp. 58-59 (underline emphasis mine DWS):
"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle said: 'The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one.' Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life aion is said to leave him or to consume away (II. v. 685; ad. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not 'a stationary and mechanical value'(De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached. ...The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
As a neo-Marcionite, I skip the apocryphal birth legends altogether for the older, wilder version: He descended from Heaven in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, entering the world as a nameless Stranger. Like a cross between Star Trek and those old "Spaghetti Westerns".
"...the gods do disguise themselves as strangers from abroad, and wander round the towns in every kind of shape..."
I am still researching this, but I'll grant you this, the punishment (lake of fire) may be for a set period of time (although by this point, time is irrelevant as God is providing all the light so the sun and stars and moon will be gone.) but there's nothing that says thosie who are not in the book of life will be sent to paradise afterward. They may face the blackest darkness Peter talks about.
It may sound cruel to you, but people have a choice to make NOW: Accept Jesus' gift of eternal life or reject him to one's peril.
I prefer to believe Jude when it says we are snatch people from the fire.
You know Def, one question I have to ask you is why do you cast me out for the sake of the name of Christ? And then you have the effrontery to say "Praise God". The following quote from Isaiah should serve as a warning to you.
quote:
Isaiah 66:5 Hear the Word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his Word; your Brethren that hated you, and cast you out for my Name's Sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified, but HE shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
See Def, that's where you and I disagree about the Book of Life. Christ said we live in a world of wheat and tares, the tares will be winnowed out.
I believe those not in the Book of Life are those who are not truly human - those are the tares, those are those who the Bible says are dead, they are also those who the Bible says have NO resurrection. Thus, they are not to be found in the Book of Life. They are the Nephilim. You may want to research them.
I believe all humans will be found in the Book of Life. Those not quite "human" will not be.
What Did Early Christians Believe about Hell and Eternal Punishment?
Uninspired records of early Christians written before 400 AD
110 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if
a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone
who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2).
150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
(Second Clement 5:5).
150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in
unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be
hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7).
150 AD Justin Martyr "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the
eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the
eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape
the punishments" (First Apology 12).
150 AD Justin Martyr "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly
and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).
150 AD Justin Martyr "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the
worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).
155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To
them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).
160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real,
and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn
the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).
177 AD Athenagoras "We Christians are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall
abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as
sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).
181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to
obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by
the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not
submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be
wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).
189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and
blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To
whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).
197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology
18:3).
197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have
these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without
changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be
punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).
212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the
righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall
be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but
continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of
interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3).
226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for
them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns
the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in
which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will
then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life"
(To Demetrian 24).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn
our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10).
307 AD Lactantius "The sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again
be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible,
and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary
purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any
nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it
shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and
affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21).
350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body,
that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn
eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth,
and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest
in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19).
452 AD St. Patrick "In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever
commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4).
Still trying to send people to eternal torment Def? I am glad you are not God. A collection of writings totally void of the inspired scriptures I might add, but that is fine Def keep posting. Perhaps, you would have been most happy to be alive during the crusades or the Salem witch hunt. Back in the good old days when they boiled heretics in oil and set them on fire to face a tortourous smoldering death.
Nevertheless, aion still means age and aionion is the adjective form of the same root word and means age lasting. Therefore the man of sin will not face eternal punishment and by God's grace neither will we.
The Good God Rescues Humanity from the Wrathful Creator's Hell
(excerpt of an ancient Marcionite story reported by Eznik de Kolb, Book IV, Against the Sects)
And [the Creator god] cast Adam into Hell because of the tree, and so went on casting all mankind into hell, up to twenty-nine generations.
And (they say) the Good God [247], a Stranger (to the world), who was sitting in the third heaven, seeing that so many people perished and were tortured between the two deceivers, the Lord of Creatures and Matter [Hyle], took compassion upon those who were cast into the fire and tortured. He sent His Son to go and save them, and to take the likeness of a slave and assume the form of a man among the sons of the god of the Law. "Heal," He said, "their lepers, and raise their dead to life, and open the eyes of their blind, and do among them (878) great cures without price; until the Lord of Creatures sees you, and becomes jealous, and lifts you upon the cross (879). And then, when you die, you shall descend into Hades, and bring them up from thence; for Hades is not prone to admit life in it. And therefore go up on the cross, that you may become like the dead, and Hades may open its mouth to admit you, and you may enter into the midst of it and empty it."
[248] And when he (the God of the Law) crucified Him (they say), He descended into Hades and emptied it. And taking the souls from the midst of it, He led them into the third heaven to His Father. And the Lord of Creatures, being inflamed, in anger rent his garment and the veil of his temple, and darkened his sun and clothed his world in blackness, and sat in grievous mourning.
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CKnapp3
Def, there are two kinds of people in this world. Your friends, and your enemies. You know doubt have forgiven your friends, but why haven't you forgiven your enemies? The bible says to love your enemies, and to do good unto those who hate you. When you are my enemy, I have done you good. I have assured you of your own salvation. And what thanks do I get for it? You have deliberately rubbed my nose in it. What good have you done me when I am YOUR enemy? NOTHING! You have refused to assure me of my own salvation, but instead have offered this rather ungodly dispute. So between you and I, who is the better person? I am convinced now that you actually hate yourself, so you coulnd't possibly love others. If fact you hate yourself so badly that when I bestow good blessings on you, you just plain reject them. Just like you have rejected Christ. If Christ meant anything to you, you would have been spreading the Gospel, but instead you spread threats of terror if one doesn't toe the line. I have told you once, and I'll tell you again, THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL!
If I say good things by the father of lies, like you charge me with, then by whom do you say good things?
Christ has therefore become of none effect by your life and attitude.
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CKnapp3
It's obvious that they are. Jesus was born of Mary. The Son of God always existed since he is God. Jesus died on the cross. The Son of God is immortal just as his father is. You Def are identifying with a carnal man rather than the spiritual man, which is a great part of your problem.
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def59
Ok, this is different than even the Way ever said. What is your basis for such a belief. And when it the context suggests that Jesus believes God is his father, not Joseph, what does that mean to you?
Anyone else believe this?
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def59
CK
I see where your doctrine will get you into the soup you are in. You need to repent of this satanic doctrine you have been infected with.
Do not let your anger be your guide.
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def59
I have forgiven my enemies, Chuck, I have forgiven you.
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Mark Sanguinetti
And what, so called, satanic doctrine is this Def?
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GarthP2000
WHOO HOOO!!! So we're 'enemies' now!
Next up: a WWF-approved mud wrestling championship between Def59 the Orthodox Destroyer and Chuck the Uncrowned Universalist.
You guys want the optional steel barred cage and scantilly-clad prancing girls with the big numbers to go with it?
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CKnapp3
Then that's settled, I am going to heaven, since God also forgives me. What? God is not going to forgive me? But you do? Are you better than God?
It is written, "What you bind on earth, I bind in heaven, and what you loose on earth, I shall loose in heaven".
Since you have forgiven me Def, you are bound by that decision. I have also forgiven you
:)-->, and likewise, I am bound by that decision. Do you even look forward to meeting me in heaven? I do expect to see you there. In fact I expect to see everyone.
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CKnapp3
What, and take on a doctrine that says I will not be forgiven? What do you take me for? Stupid? I have repented of the things I need to repent of, and that's hatred towards my fellow man, something I don't think you have quite repented of yourself.
Am I being satanic because I have chosen to forgive everyone? If I forgive everyone by Satan, then by whom do you forgive everyone? Are you saying God will not have mercy on us all? Read Romans 11:32. You and I are also judged as unbelievers, in spite of our convictions.
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CKnapp3
Joseph may not be Jesus' natural father, but Jesus never denied he was the son of Joseph. Mary IS the natural mother of Jesus however, a Jesus that had a beginning. Like I said, you swear by the Son of Mary (who had a beginning and is mortal), and not by the Son of God (who had NO beginning and is IMMORTAL). You acknowledge the divinity of Christ well, but walk more after his human nature. Perhaps you also walk after your own flesh. You have to consider yourself dead in order to really live.
Why do you believe in the eternity of sin? Don't you know that it is written "he who is dead is FREE FROM SIN"? Will you ever acknowledge that there will be a time when Hitler will be free from sin? But you talk as if Hitler will be eternally wed to his sin. If that is so, then you will also remain in your sin as well. And so will all of us.
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CKnapp3
I can tell by that response that you are not very well educated. I was referring to John 14:6, the verse you were referring to. I had said that Jesus was speaking of the Word of God, not of himself personally. I could easily make that same identical quote and be just as right on. What? Does that mean salvation can only come by Chuck? NONSENSE!
Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life". The "way and the truth and the life" is not a who, but a what. And what is the "way and the truth and the life"? The Word of God, of course.
Yeah, I know, I know, Jesus is the Word made flesh, you don't have to remind me of that. But that is obviously a figure of speech, just like the "Word is God" is a figure of speech also. My words are me, and your words are you too.
Hey, remember the little taunt when we were kids? It goes: "Twinkle, Twinkle, little star, WHAT YOU SAY IS WHAT YOU ARE!"
:P--> 
:D-->
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Jbarrax
I really hesitate to get dragged into this, but I must say Chuck, as a Unitarian, I don't see where you're coming from. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try to distinguish between the person of Jesus and that of the Son of God. And I don't follow your logic. It seems to me that perhaps you are confusing eternity and immortality. God is eternal because He has neither beginning nor end. Jesus is immortal because he was born, and died, but lives on. According to the Apostle Paul, we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will also receive immortality. That doesn't mean we were never born, it just means we'll be delivered from death.
Peace
JerryB
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Mark Sanguinetti
Getting back to our study of Universalism, an understanding of the word aeon is very important. Without an understanding of this word one will not understand universalism and the reconciliation of all men. They will mistakenly think that aeon means eternity, hence the punishment of the wicked will be eternal. However, aion means age and the adjective form of aion, aionion means age lasting. Hence, the punishment of sinful man has a time limit.
As explained in Marvin R. Vincent's, Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, [1864]), pp. 58-59 (underline emphasis mine DWS):
"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle said: 'The period which includes the whole time of each one's life is called the aeon of each one.' Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life aion is said to leave him or to consume away (II. v. 685; ad. v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millennium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not 'a stationary and mechanical value'(De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached. ...The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
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TheInvisibleDan
As a neo-Marcionite, I skip the apocryphal birth legends altogether for the older, wilder version: He descended from Heaven in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, entering the world as a nameless Stranger. Like a cross between Star Trek and those old "Spaghetti Westerns".
"...the gods do disguise themselves as strangers from abroad, and wander round the towns in every kind of shape..."
The Odyssey, book XVII, p.232, Rieu.
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def59
Well Mark
Other people would disagree based on the context.
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def59
Chuck,
Once you told me about your belief in Christ, my conversation with has to end.
First, you have said the Bible is B.S., then you say you have uncovered a hidden truth, now you say Jesus is not the Son of God.
With no common basis for understanding, we will only argue for eternity. (Well, it will seem like it.)
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def59
Mark and Chuck,
I am still researching this, but I'll grant you this, the punishment (lake of fire) may be for a set period of time (although by this point, time is irrelevant as God is providing all the light so the sun and stars and moon will be gone.) but there's nothing that says thosie who are not in the book of life will be sent to paradise afterward. They may face the blackest darkness Peter talks about.
It may sound cruel to you, but people have a choice to make NOW: Accept Jesus' gift of eternal life or reject him to one's peril.
I prefer to believe Jude when it says we are snatch people from the fire.
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CKnapp3
Def, is Mary the Mother of God? Yes or No?
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CKnapp3
You know Def, one question I have to ask you is why do you cast me out for the sake of the name of Christ? And then you have the effrontery to say "Praise God". The following quote from Isaiah should serve as a warning to you.
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Sunesis
See Def, that's where you and I disagree about the Book of Life. Christ said we live in a world of wheat and tares, the tares will be winnowed out.
I believe those not in the Book of Life are those who are not truly human - those are the tares, those are those who the Bible says are dead, they are also those who the Bible says have NO resurrection. Thus, they are not to be found in the Book of Life. They are the Nephilim. You may want to research them.
I believe all humans will be found in the Book of Life. Those not quite "human" will not be.
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def59
Fair enough Sun,
We can agree to disagree.
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def59
First
Sun, you are the first I have heard to say only the Nephilim will be lost.
Second,
For then bu's, you make a lot of noise about how the early church believed your way, much in the same way the unitarians carry on.
Here are some quotes from pre-400 a.d. church fathers from http://www.new-life.net/hell02.htm
What Did Early Christians Believe about Hell and Eternal Punishment?
Uninspired records of early Christians written before 400 AD
110 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if
a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone
who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2).
150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
(Second Clement 5:5).
150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in
unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be
hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7).
150 AD Justin Martyr "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the
eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the
eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape
the punishments" (First Apology 12).
150 AD Justin Martyr "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly
and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).
150 AD Justin Martyr "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the
worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).
155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To
them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).
160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real,
and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn
the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).
177 AD Athenagoras "We Christians are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall
abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as
sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).
181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to
obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by
the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not
submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be
wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).
189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and
blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To
whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).
197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology
18:3).
197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have
these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without
changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be
punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).
212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the
righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall
be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but
continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of
interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3).
226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for
them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns
the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in
which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will
then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life"
(To Demetrian 24).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn
our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10).
307 AD Lactantius "The sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again
be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible,
and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary
purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any
nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it
shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and
affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21).
350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body,
that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn
eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth,
and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest
in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19).
452 AD St. Patrick "In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever
commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4).
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Mark Sanguinetti
Still trying to send people to eternal torment Def? I am glad you are not God. A collection of writings totally void of the inspired scriptures I might add, but that is fine Def keep posting. Perhaps, you would have been most happy to be alive during the crusades or the Salem witch hunt. Back in the good old days when they boiled heretics in oil and set them on fire to face a tortourous smoldering death.
Nevertheless, aion still means age and aionion is the adjective form of the same root word and means age lasting. Therefore the man of sin will not face eternal punishment and by God's grace neither will we.
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TheInvisibleDan
The Good God Rescues Humanity from the Wrathful Creator's Hell
(excerpt of an ancient Marcionite story reported by Eznik de Kolb, Book IV, Against the Sects)
And [the Creator god] cast Adam into Hell because of the tree, and so went on casting all mankind into hell, up to twenty-nine generations.
And (they say) the Good God [247], a Stranger (to the world), who was sitting in the third heaven, seeing that so many people perished and were tortured between the two deceivers, the Lord of Creatures and Matter [Hyle], took compassion upon those who were cast into the fire and tortured. He sent His Son to go and save them, and to take the likeness of a slave and assume the form of a man among the sons of the god of the Law. "Heal," He said, "their lepers, and raise their dead to life, and open the eyes of their blind, and do among them (878) great cures without price; until the Lord of Creatures sees you, and becomes jealous, and lifts you upon the cross (879). And then, when you die, you shall descend into Hades, and bring them up from thence; for Hades is not prone to admit life in it. And therefore go up on the cross, that you may become like the dead, and Hades may open its mouth to admit you, and you may enter into the midst of it and empty it."
[248] And when he (the God of the Law) crucified Him (they say), He descended into Hades and emptied it. And taking the souls from the midst of it, He led them into the third heaven to His Father. And the Lord of Creatures, being inflamed, in anger rent his garment and the veil of his temple, and darkened his sun and clothed his world in blackness, and sat in grievous mourning.
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