Biblical Universalism

[def59]

Chuck,

I believe God is big enough, I just don't agree with your conclusion that He will save everyone and for me that does not make the Bible fall apart, in fact it strengthens it. Read Deut. 6-7 and see how God judges the nations. See why he picks who he will favor and why others do not measure up.

I think you want so desperately for God to fit into your way of thinking that when anyone else comes along with a different point of view, you lash out in anger at them. You are just as guilty of being an angry preacher as the fire-and-brimstone crowd you say turned you off so many years ago.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Def with regard to your post dated February 09, 2005 12:44 which I just saw. I was hoping you would find someone who was fluent in biblical Greek. Although his definition is not bad it does not offer any reasons why he has listed what he has, either from contextual usages or from an understanding of Koine Greek.

Why is the Webster's dictionary more definite as to this word's meaning? I looked up the word eon. The complete definition is as follows:

eon n. [< Greek aion, an age] an extremely long, indefinite period of time

You and your bible scholar should look this up some time.

Edited February 15, 2005 by Mark Sanguinetti

[GarthP2000]

quote:

I think you want so desperately for God to fit into your way of thinking that when anyone else comes along with a different point of view, you lash out in anger at them. You are just as guilty of being an angry preacher as the fire-and-brimstone crowd you say turned you off so many years ago.

Frankly, I see both versions as a kind of hell for freedom loving individuals: Either you are 'assimilated' into God's 'collective' (resistance is futile), or there are those who are 'cast out' to burn forever and ever, and for no more of a crime than 'not to believe'. (Wow! Gee! Some justice!)

And of course, you have the John Calvin 'you have been pre-determined to believe or not believe, and you had no say so in the matter' variety of ((cough)) gospel.

... Gosh! So many 'higher truths', so little time.

-->

[CKnapp3]

quote:

Originally posted by GarthP2000:

Frankly, I see both versions as a kind of hell for freedom loving individuals: Either you are 'assimilated' into God's 'collective' (resistance is futile), or there are those who are 'cast out' to burn forever and ever, and for no more of a crime than 'not to believe'. (Wow! Gee! Some justice!)

And of course, you have the John Calvin 'you have been pre-determined to believe or not believe, and you had no say so in the matter' variety of ((cough)) gospel.

... Gosh! So many 'higher truths', so little time.

-->

Kinda puts you between the Devil and The Deep Blue Sea, doesn't it? :)-->

[CKnapp3]

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

I think you want so desperately for God to fit into your way of thinking that when anyone else comes along with a different point of view, you lash out in anger at them. You are just as guilty of being an angry preacher as the fire-and-brimstone crowd you say turned you off so many years ago.

At least my anger is short lived. I get it out of my system, but you try to recharge it. And of course since I'm not God, I can't make things right. Your God's anger seems to last for all eternity, in spite of the biblical promise that his anger is only but for a season! If you maintain your position on this then that is proof that (your) God is a liar. And furthermore, if your God is so damn powerful, why does he have to sentence people to such a horrible fate anyway when he can just transform them into something holy and pleasing to him? Answer: YOUR GOD HAS NO POWER!!!

[GarthP2000]

quote:

Kinda puts you between the Devil and The Deep Blue Sea, doesn't it?

Sure is a lot nicer setting, gotta give me that.

I like what you said about the 'eternal judgement and fire in hell' deity, tho'. .... Can you say 'having some serious control issues'?

:D-->

[CKnapp3]

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Which would be worse for non-Christians to suffer temporary torment and then be forced to bend the knee and then spend eternity with a God you have lived your life denying and rebelling against or to be separated from Him for eternity knowing that's how you lived life here?

Are you saying that those God rejecters are going to be happy in their supposed eternal state? Correct me if im wrong, but you do believe those people will be Satan's property for all eternity, right? But you forgot one thing: The bible promises the absolute defeat of Satan and THE END OF HIS EVIL REIGN! Besides, God would be guilty of treason against himself to give any of his creation over to his arch-enemy.

As for the non-Christians who would lament that they are being treated wrongfully by being cast into the lake of fire for purification, there's the old saying: "You may hate God for it now, but you will thank him for it later" ;)-->

Def, just what do you think the lake of fire is anyway? It is NOT hell. The bible NEVER calls it such. And why do you lament when I tell you that you are going there? Jesus went there, I'm going there, Mark is going there, so is just about everyone! Def, I think you are so in love with your sins that you don't want to be separated from them. You made your sins your "spouse" in effect.

[def59]

It is not a question of happiness. And if God is going to forcibly transform people, why didn't he do it when Adam sinned? Or after Christ died and rose again? Why did the church have to suffer when God was going to forcibly change Nero's heart anyway. I think that is a flaw in your argument.

When I say lake of fire I mean lake of fire, I don't mean the grave. Yes Christ went into the grave, but not the lake. That is reserved for satan and his angels.

That is also why I believe the Bible when it says snatch people from the fire because this is a fire designed for angelic beings, not humans. So when humans go there, it will be a most unpleasant experience.

That is why I believe you are listening to the father of lies when you believe all will be in paradise eventually. The new Agers believe that for pete's sake.

There is no biblical argument for purgatory. The whole idea suggests Christ's sacrifice isn't enough. But it is and it offered to ALL mankind to accept. So there's a choice. Accept or not accept. And there are consequences for not accepting.

God judges by the heart and there will be millions who will be in heaven (I am speaking from my heart). But if all will see some sort of paradise, then all the warnings, admonitions and urgings to walk upright, lean on the lord and persevere are pointless.

Don't you see? This universal doctrine plays nice to secular ears, but Christianity is an EXCLUSIVE faith (John 14:6) If you don't accept Jesus as Lord then there is a consequence.

[GarthP2000]

quote:

... but Christianity is an EXCLUSIVE faith

Sounds s-o-o-o, ... country clubbish.

..... Hey, *somebody* has to be left out. Back of the bus. ... Ya know?

-->

[TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames]

quote:

Sounds s-o-o-o, ... country clubbish.

And, I bet you forgot the Grey Poupon too, Garth. :D-->

[def59]

Garth, Song,

You have a problem with the admission policy? Take it up with managment.

You can see the rules at John 14:6; and other places that I know you know.

[def59]

Chrisitanity is INCLUSIVE in that salvation is available to everyone on the planet, but EXCLUSIVE in that it is only through Jesus Christ that one comes to be salvation.

And depending on your views on lost salvation, you can come back, or if you never really left, you can have your card renewed or you can sincerely apologize and be re-admitted.

[GarthP2000]

..... aannnddddd let's not forget to put a few (well, *more* than a few preferably) bucks in the collection plate while we're at it too, doncha know. ;)--> Kinda makes the 'repentance' sweeter, ... for the minister anyway.

Now THAT'S the kind of 'universalism' that we're talking about here!

:D-->

[CKnapp3]

I might as well ask this question for the record, even though it will probably go in one ear and out the other.

Def, Why do you call Jesus your Lord but do Satan's bidding? Satan loves it when people are terrified of hell, and you make sure people know that such a place exists. How do you figure that I'm the son of the father of lies? Is the fact that Jesus redeemed mankind and paid for it with his precious blood a lie? Yes, newagers do subscribe to the idea. Does that make it wrong? Sounds like you hate newage people, after all, if they believe it, it must be wrong! But newagers probably don't know exactly how it will come about. They may be unaware of a trial they'll have to go through, and yes perhaps an unpleasant one. I have made this abundantly clear in my posts, but you continue to ignore them. You also ignore the fact that you too will face that same trial.

When you go home, you think you are going to be showered with praise. Why do you expect this? I see your heart, and the only reason you don't cheat on your wife, molest children, rob liquor stores, commit murder (though that's kind of an understatement), etc. is because you fear hell. That tells me you are not motivated by love, but by fear of hell. Take away the hell, and you would do just about every one of those sins! WOULDN'T YOU???? So I guess there's something good about hell in a sense: it keeps people like you in check. But leave it to you to use the hell doctrine to spread his own terror, so it actually defeats its own purpose. So your cohorts in crime will continue to be unaffected by the hell teaching and spread their reign of terror on an innocent society.

Def, if you have any sense, you'd click on this link below.

If Hell Is Real

[CKnapp3]

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Chrisitanity is INCLUSIVE in that salvation is available to everyone on the planet, but EXCLUSIVE in that it is only through Jesus Christ that one comes to be salvation.

No $hit??????? And I thought salvation came exculsively through Bugs Bunny???? (Maybe that explains my avitar? ;)--> )

[CKnapp3]

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Garth, Song,

You have a problem with the admission policy? Take it up with managment.

You can see the rules at John 14:6; and other places that I know you know.

YOU DEF are guilty of rank IDOLATRY!!!!! Jesus was not speaking of himself personally, but rather he was speaking in the personification of the Word of God, the same one that says that as all die in Adam, so shall all be made alive in Christ (something you don't agree with, I know). The words "for I am the Word of God" at the end of that sentence should be understood.

You are more hung up on the messenger than you are the message. You swear by the son of Mary and Joseph and NOT by the Son of God. Which is greater, the son of Mary and Joseph, or the Son of God which sanctified him?

I'm quite sure that nobody is going to live in paradise apart from Christ. Is this what the fuss is all about? Why do you waste your time with such childish disputes?

[Oakspear]

Is rank idolatry worse than regular idolatry?

[def59]

Yes, because that means the idolater is not using deordorant. :D-->

[TheInvisibleDan]

lol!

I guess they don't call 'em "unclean spirits"

for nothing.

[Jbarrax]

Hey I've got a question. It seems to me that all the fuss about whether Jesus is God or not only partly addresses the issue of Biblical Unitarianism vs the Trinity. The debate rages on and on about whether Jesus was the Son of God or "God the Son". But what we're not looking at is the third part of the puzzle.

The Nicene Creed states that God is a THREE part being, "God in three persons" is how the AME Church sang it every week when I was a youngun. Trinitarians will often reflexively refer to the Holy Spirit as "the third person of the Trinity".

But if the Holy Spirit is a unique person, as Jesus and God are obviously unique persons, what is unique about Him/It? Although I can think of several attributes of Jesus and God that distinguish one from the other, I cannot think of one Biblical attribute of the Holy Spirit that is distinct from God the Father or the gift by the same name.

So I ask you Trinitarians; what defines the Third Person of the Trinity that doesn't also apply to God?

JerryB

[TheInvisibleDan]

quote:

Originally posted by Jbarrax:

But if the Holy Spirit is a unique person, as Jesus and God are obviously unique persons, what is unique about Him/It? Although I can think of several attributes of Jesus and God that distinguish one from the other, I cannot think of one Biblical attribute of the Holy Spirit that is distinct from God the Father or the gift by the same name.

So I ask you Trinitarians; what defines the Third Person of the Trinity that doesn't also apply to God?

JerryB

She's prettier. So I've heard.

[def59]

Chuck

Are you saying the Son of God and Jesus are two different persons?

Jb

Have you read the article on the Holy Spirit on http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_whohs.htm ?

There are many verses that show the Spirit to be a distinct person and not just another name for the Father or an inanimate power source.

Check out Charles Stanley's books on the subject.

Here's another site:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm

[def59]

quote:

Originally posted by CKnapp3:

Def sure isn't happy unless he has the last word on everything.

Well, you keep on responding, so I guess you want the last word too.

It it plain and manifest that Def is motivated by fear rather than love, and he tries to drag others into his private hell.

You have no clue what motivates me, nor where I want people to join me.

This is why I get steamed. I'm thinking of hapless souls who could be wrongfully agonized by people like Def.

And I worry that others may be eternally agonized by the result of your doctrine.

If I were to beat Def with a baseball bat, he is so sick and depraved with masochism that he would probably enjoy it.

Are you a total a** or do you just play on on TV?

This is why he stirs up the pot of conflict. He is actually looking for a fight, and he loves it when you blast him, so he can say "see, you are angry and IM COOL!" Well believe me, preaching hate is NEVER cool. I believe Def does "turn the other cheek" (in the perverted sense of the term).

So far, YOU are only one who has gotten angry, what are you afraid of?

Def also says God is not into fairness. Fairness and justice work hand in hand. He might as well teach that when God says he's just, he only lied to you. But then Def's god is a liar anyway. Yes, Def's god IS unfair. So Def speaks truthfully of his god. And of course a man is only as good as the god he worships. Like father, like son! Therefore Def is also unfair. A son NEVER talks back to his father does he? But I will talk back to any god who is NOT MY GOD!!!!! Especially when that same god is nothing but sewage.

I really would like to see your dictionary. If life was fair, why are some people born blind, lame, deaf or some contract horrible diseases or die paifuld deaths and others just go through life like a charm. Why are some Christians beset with many problems, but Hugh Hefner rolls in the cash and dolls? (See Psalms 37 and 73)

Remember, I'm not the one who initiated this thread. DEF IS!!!!! I personally have better things to do than to argue with narrow-minded people, like sharing the healing gospel with people who need it. Def on the other hand has no gospel, so he likes to scorn those who do.

Yep, I started it, because you brought it up in the chat room, remember? And I too want to be out sharing the gospel of salvation, but you kept screaming at me like the second coming of Loyboy so I responded. I also checked out your doctrine with people I trust, because I don't know you or Mark S. Guess what, I came to a different conclusion. Is that a crime according to Lord chucky?

Def is the puke I say he is because he only emulates his god, who is a real puke. Remember, only a sewage god would sentence anyone to eternal torture, and Def has vehemently defended such a god.

Puke? Good comeback Potsy. I see how loving you really are. I will pray to my God, the father of our Lord Jesus Christ for your soul. As I have said before, according to my understanding of scripture, no one goes to eternal punishment undeserved. And I do understand what you are saying about how God wants to spend eternity in heaven with everyone. I believe we as Christians are called to spread the gospel over the whole world and that everyone is invited to the party. But we know from Jesus's teachings that some will miss the wedding feast and others will be sent to the lake of fire.

Notice that Def indeed has not cast any names at me. He must think he is great stuff for that, or at least wants you to think such, but the truth is there is no name he can call me that will hurt me, because I've spent a great deal of my life being called much more hurtful names than what Def could possibly call me.

Yet you think its fine to call me names? How is that supposed to make me want to come to your side?

He laments that I call him names. Why?? Doesn't he stand well before his god?? If he stands well before his god, then what should he care what names I call him??? And he wants favors from his god???? Me? READ MY SIG!!!!!! Salvation is clearly a gift, not a reward. As for rewards, if I get any, fine. If I don't, that's fine too. I didn't get too many rewards in this life, so I'm used to it.

And is that fair, chucky? No. So I guess you can see how life isn't fair after all. But God loves you too and he has some great things planned for you if you will repent of your sins.

I conclusion, it's clear that Def fails to take heed to his own beliefs. He fails to take heed to the fact that he will face an angry god if he continues to preach one, and he will be too cowardly to talk back to such a god because he has confessed that he is nobody to talk back to his god. The bible is full of stories of prophets who fought God. I believe Jacob did, AND EVEN WON!!!!!

Some victory, he walked with a limp for the rest of his life. I never said you couldn't get mad at God. But in the end, he is sovereign, and who am I to argue then? I can see your passion, but that doesn't mean anything. Osama bin Laden is passionate too, but all he does is kill people who disagree with him.

If God refuses to save all, then he has lost my respect, for he in fact lied when he said "I will all men to be saved".* If God cannot save all, then who is he to hold me accountable??? For he HAS NO POWER!!!!!!!

CK, God has set the standard, but we cannot get there without Christ, so that's the key, we have to come to Jesus to be saved. (John 14:6) If you are calling Jesus a liar, then I don't know where you really are with God.

* According to VPW, et al., if one part of the bible is a lie, it's ALL A LIE!!!!! And to think I was criticized for calling the bible a bunch of B.S. last year????? I think the records speak for themselves.

Quoting the great father of lies are we now? VPW lied to us about the Bible in so many places, it is no wonder we are suceptible to others.

[def59]

quote:

Originally posted by CKnapp3:

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Garth, Song,

You have a problem with the admission policy? Take it up with managment.

You can see the rules at John 14:6; and other places that I know you know.

YOU DEF are guilty of rank IDOLATRY!!!!! Jesus was not speaking of himself personally, but rather he was speaking in the personification of the Word of God, the same one that says that as all die in Adam, so shall all be made alive in Christ (something you don't agree with, I know). The words "for I am the Word of God" at the end of that sentence should be understood.

Which sentence are you speaking of, I have John 14 posted here

You are more hung up on the messenger than you are the message. You swear by the son of Mary and Joseph and NOT by the Son of God.

Hello? What planet are you from anyway? Jesus is the son of God. Or don't you believe that either?

Which is greater, the son of Mary and Joseph, or the Son of God which sanctified him?

In this chapter we see that Jesus' father is God, not Joseph. Even unitarians will concede that point.

I'm quite sure that nobody is going to live in paradise apart from Christ. Is this what the fuss is all about? Why do you waste your time with such childish disputes?

But the Bible doesn't teach that. It teaches some will be sent away by Jesus himself. But you don't believe the Bible is authentic do you? You believe it is B.S., well, if it is, how can you quote any part of it for your doctrine?

From the NIV

John 14

   1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father

   5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

   6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It doesn't get any simpler than this.

7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.CK, read this this part slowly. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

   8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

   9Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.Trinity alert! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

JB, this section could help you understand why the Holy Spirit is considered a Person of the Godhead.

   15“If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever– 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

   22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

   23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

   25“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

   28“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

   “Come now; let us leave.

[Jbarrax]

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Jb

Have you read the article on the Holy Spirit on http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_whohs.htm ?

Can't say that I have Def.

quote:

There are many verses that show the Spirit to be a distinct person and not just another name for the Father or an inanimate power source.

Check out Charles Stanley's books on the subject.

Here's another site:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm

And what might some of those verses be, praytell?

JerryB