I have read a few of your posts here. I think you are doing an excellent job of explaining this subject which for some Christians is difficult to accept and understand. I applaud you.
1. Aion, an age, is translated eternal in Eph 3:11 lit. (purpose) of the ages (marg.) and 1 Tim 1:17, lit. (king) of the ages.
2. Aionios, "describes the duration, either undefined but not endless as in Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2, or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and the other 66 places in the NT.
The author goes on to show that the word used of persons and things which are in their nature, "endless"
examples: God, Rom 16:26; His power, 1 Tim 6:16, His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12; and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9; as well of his future rule, 2 Peter 1:11; which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life receieved by those who believe in Jesus Christ, John 3:16, concerning what He said, "they shall never perish," 10:28; and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be immortal, 1 Cor 15:33; in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46, Titus 1:2.
Aionos is also used of the sin that "hath not forgiveness' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of the instruments, Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be "unquenchable,: Mark 9:43.
"The use of ainos here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Thess 1:9 is not temporary, but final, and accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retrubutive."*
From the notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp 232-233.
Vines Expository dictionary of New Testament words
W.E. Vine
Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, Mass.
So you can say that aion means and age that there is an end, but logically that means that our salvation has an end and God has an end.
Def, thanks for starting this thread. You have been given plenty of excellent biblical information to at least consider the possibility. It was only a couple of years ago that I heard about this possibility. As I scripturally weigh the evidence I am more and more leaning towards the likelyhood that Jesus Christ came for the reconciliation of all men to God.
As I said before the "Lake of Fire" in the book of Revelation is a fire of purification. From the Greek text the word fire is the Greek word 'pur'. Below is a partial definition from Thayer's unabridged. I did not include the entire definition because it is a long one. This definition points out that "pur" has a similar word "pu" from the Sanskrit which means "to purify".
NT:4442
pur,
genitive puros, to (probably from Sanskrit pu, "to purify" (compare the German: fever); Vanicek (1877 f), Griechisch-Lateinisches Etymologisches W?rbuch, p. 541; Curtius (50 A.D.) (1879), sec. 385), from Homer (900 B.C.?) down; Hebrew 'eesh;
fire: Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 17:15; Mark 9:22; Luke 3:9,17; 9:54; John 15:6; Acts 2:19; 28:5; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 11:34; James 3:5; 5:3; Rev 8:5,7; 9:17,18; 11:5; 13:13; 14:18; 15:2; 16:8; 20:9;
Besides what we read in chapters 19 & 20 of the book of Revelation. Here are some other usages of this Greek word for fire "pur" from the New Testament. Please note in all the verses below I am including the English word which is translated from the Greek word "pur" surrounded by quotation marks. From reading these verses it should be more than obvious that in many usages this word "pur" refers to a fire of purification. I am not saying that this purification written about in the book of Revelation is a pleasant experience or without pain. Just like chastisement when we are wrong is sometimes painful. However, it is a necessary one for the reconciliation of man.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":
KJV
Matt 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".
KJV
Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.
KJV
Acts 2:3
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.
KJV
Rom 12:20
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".
KJV
Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".
KJV
1 Peter 1:7
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by "fire", may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
If the Bible is not God's word, then from where do you get your inspiration?
:::::snipped for irrelavancy::::::
The Bible is my rule of faith. If you think its BS, well, your in great company.
You might do well to read II Peter 1:20-21. It tells you plainly that inspiration cannot be put clearly in human terms. It is only vague.
As far as the bible being your rule of faith, you swear by the letter of the word, and NOT by the Spirit of the letter. That is why your devotion to it is idolatrous. You're right up there with the Pharisees and Scribes. With all your bible knowledge, you could be prime choice to do Satan's bidding, since he loves to quote scripture.
In the past several days I find that the more I answer your questions, the more you want to argue. Just what do you think you will accomplish by arguing with Mark and I? That you are a biblical know-it-all?
Perhaps John, chapt. 5 could apply to you, particularly verses 39 and 40. You trust more in your King James Bible more than you do God. I pointed out from your own beloved bible that you are NOT going to inherit the Kingdom of God because you fit one of the criteria for disqualification. What? You expect the inheritance? Then you could be the one that will be "weeping and gnashing his teeth" in the outer darkness, because you missed out on the inhertiance you so desired, and perhaps even LUSTED (yes, I do mean LUSTED!) after. But you take that as a warning to the world, when it is in fact a warning TO THE CHURCH! Therefore you feel since that warning doesn't apply to you, you disregard it and pay no heed. I'm convinced that you are hard headed and proud, and then you come back and falsely accuse me of blasphemy. OK, if I'm guilty of blasphemy, PROVE IT!!!!!
Def, your study of "aion" is lacking. Try these usages and see if you can figure it out. Again the word translated "aion" is in quotation marks. What do all these uages directly below have in common you ask? They show that the word for "aion", which should be translated age, often is shown to have an ending. How can this be if the word for age is the same as eternal?
Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.
KJV
Matt 13:39-40
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?
KJV
Matt 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.
KJV
1 Cor 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought
KJV
1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.
KJV
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.
KJV
Eph 1:21
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:
KJV
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
KJV
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KJV
And below we see "age" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "age" is not synonomous with eternal.
Luke 1:70
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:
KJV
John 9:32
32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
KJV
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".
KJV
Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".
KJV
1 Cor 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:
KJV
Eph 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
KJV
Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonomous with eternal.
Luke 18:30
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.
KJV
Eph 2:7
7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
KJV
Heb 6:5
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,
Chuck let's leave this thread up for those that want knowledge and understanding on this subject. There is plenty here that is convincing for those that want new light. All can compare our posts with Def's.
Thanks again for starting this thread Def, but honestly your posts here lack insight and scholarly workmanship. However, you will be in my prayers that God can open the eyes of your understanding.
Chuck let's leave this thread up for those that want knowledge and understanding on this subject. There is plenty here that is convincing for those that want new light. All can compare our posts with Def's.
Thanks again for starting this thread Def, but honestly your posts here lack insight and scholarly workmanship. However, you will be in my prayers that God can open the eyes of your understanding.
Fair enough with me Mark, also check your private topics.
Def, you ask where I get my inspiration, obviously from the Holy Spirit.
I had first considered Universalism as a possibility 18 years ago. Without being exposed to any Universalist literature, I have done some studying to determine if Universalism could be true. I have determined that it was. Now I know it has to be true, because it was only about maybe 7 years ago when I was first exposed to Universalist literature, and I find that they drew the exact same conclusions that I have drawn. Coincidence???? Do you want to dismiss this as devils communicating? Remember, Jesus was also accused of being in league with Satan. Why would Satan want anyone to believe that they will live where nothing but peace and safety prevail constantly? I would think Satan is the one who wants people to be afraid of hell, with all the worst things that could happen imaginable. And if you have Satan's favor, he might convince you that you will be making life miserable for your enemies, and therefore you yourself will be happy. My happiness doesn't require making people's lives miserable. My own happiness can only be guaranteed on condition that all will eventually be brought to happiness. Therefore Def, because you believe that many will be eternally unhappy, your own happiness in eternity has no guarantee. If you think otherwise, you could very will be deceiving yourself. I do believe you will (if you have yet to be) be saved, but not until you see the error of your ways. At least under my belief system, when you see the error of your ways, you still have hope. Under your own, a person will be forced to see the error of his ways, and will also be brought to an understanding that he has lost all hope. You definitely subscribe to the slogan of Hades, "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter".
I was introduced several years ago to the idea that Christ or Krestus would save all humanity through the works of A.E. Knoch and Concordant Concern Publishers. After years of the old, stale Wayshua teachings, Knoch's stuff was a much-needed breath of fresh air, and while I may not necessarily agree nowadays with his hair-splitting methodology, I can still greatly appreciate the heart of love behind his work.
"Salvation" for "all mankind"?
It's perfectly in keeping with the benevolent character of Christ/Krestus.
If the Bible is not God's word, then from where do you get your inspiration?
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The Bible is my rule of faith. If you think its BS, well, your in great company.
You might do well to read II Peter 1:20-21. It tells you plainly that inspiration cannot be put clearly in human terms. It is only vague.
As far as the bible being your rule of faith, you swear by the letter of the word, and NOT by the Spirit of the letter. That is why your devotion to it is idolatrous. You're right up there with the Pharisees and Scribes. With all your bible knowledge, you could be prime choice to do Satan's bidding, since he loves to quote scripture.
so could you, so far you offer opinion only as the basis of your faith. My bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
In the past several days I find that the more I answer your questions, the more you want to argue. Just what do you think you will accomplish by arguing with Mark and I? That you are a biblical know-it-all?
I ask questions and offer proofs of my beliefs. You are the one who is getting angry and offer only opinion.
Perhaps John, chapt. 5 could apply to you, particularly verses 39 and 40. You trust more in your King James Bible more than you do God. I pointed out from your own beloved bible that you are NOT going to inherit the Kingdom of God because you fit one of the criteria for disqualification. What? You expect the inheritance? Then you could be the one that will be "weeping and gnashing his teeth" in the outer darkness, because you missed out on the inhertiance you so desired, and perhaps even _LUSTED_ (yes, I do mean LUSTED!) after. But you take that as a warning to the world, when it is in fact a warning _TO THE CHURCH!_ Therefore you feel since that warning doesn't apply to you, you disregard it and pay no heed. I'm convinced that you are hard headed and proud, and then you come back and falsely accuse me of blasphemy. OK, if I'm guilty of blasphemy, _PROVE IT!!!!!_
I could say the same thing about you. But you are wrong, I hold no allegiance to the KJV. So let's get our facts straight first.
As for the John passage, I have come to Christ, he is my lord and saviour, my ETERNAL lord and Saviour. Or do you think that is only for an "age" as well?
Def, you ask where I get my inspiration, obviously from the Holy Spirit.
I had first considered Universalism as a possibility 18 years ago. Without being exposed to any Universalist literature, I have done some studying to determine if Universalism could be true. I have determined that it was. Now I know it has to be true, because it was only about maybe 7 years ago when I was first exposed to Universalist literature, and I find that they drew the exact same conclusions that I have drawn. Coincidence???? Do you want to dismiss this as devils communicating?
Well, that could be a possiblity. Have you considered it?
Remember, Jesus was also accused of being in league with Satan. Why would Satan want anyone to believe that they will live where nothing but peace and safety prevail constantly? I would think Satan is the one who wants people to be afraid of hell, with all the worst things that could happen imaginable.
I think Satan will teach that making Jesus lord now is pointless, when there's so much the world has to offer.
And if you have Satan's favor, he might convince you that you will be making life miserable for your enemies, and therefore you yourself will be happy.
I believe in the eternal fire because Jesus says it is there. I don't want anyone to end up there, so I tell them about the wonderful love Jesus has for them. If no one ends up there, praise God! I know my God is a god of love and justice. I know he will judge honestly and ALL of us will have to make an accounting of ourselves. But there is a book of Life and a book of death and a second death mentioned. So how say you on this?
My happiness doesn't require making people's lives miserable.
Well, you are not making mine miserable, if that's any consolation.
My own happiness can only be guaranteed on condition that all will eventually be brought to happiness.
But the Bible doesn't guarantee happiness.
Therefore Def, because you believe that many will be eternally unhappy, your own happiness in eternity has no guarantee.
If anyone ends up there, it is of their own doing. I am called to warn. If no one heeds, the blood is on their hands.
If you think otherwise, you could very will be deceiving yourself. I do believe you will (if you have yet to be) be saved, but not until you see the error of your ways.
What error? To believe the scriptures?
At least under my belief system, when you see the error of your ways, you still have hope. Under your own, a person will be forced to see the error of his ways, and will also be brought to an understanding that he has lost all hope.
God comes to people and calls them to Him, if they reject him, should not they receive their reward?
You definitely subscribe to the slogan of Hades, _"Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter"._
And you walk on thin ice as the flames of hell lap at your heels.
Another point, do you consider that Jesus used figurative speech when he referred to Gehenna. It was a real place, no doubt. Human sacrifice was done there. In Jesus' time it was used as a garbage incinerator.
He was using word pictures to show us what eternity without God will be like.
Def, I am giving you another chance to re-evaluate your false religion of fire and torment. Below I am reposting scriptures that show usages of the exact same word used in the book of Revelation phrase "Lake of Fire". Again the word for "fire" is in quotation marks. This is the exact same Greek word from the text which you say is so precious to you. Among other things these verses show the following:
'baptizing with fire',
'burning up the chaff with fire',
'cloven tongues like fire appearing on the apostles on the day of Pentecost',
'an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire' (Was this angel of God being tormented also?),
'heaping coals of fire on ones head' (which in this context was the equivalent of feeding and giving drink to ones enemy),
'every man's works being revealed by fire, then suffering loss by fire, then finally saved by fire',
'the believer's works being tested by fire'.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":
KJV
Matt 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".
KJV
Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.
KJV
Acts 2:3
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.
KJV
Rom 12:20
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".
KJV
Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".
KJV
1 Peter 1:7
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by "fire", may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJV
Def, isn't it yet time to re-evaluate your religious beliefs?
Below is an article that explains the difference between the related Greek words "aion" and "aionion". The web site link is at the end.
Eonian life, not eternal life
It is common knowledge among students of the Bible that, following this evil-ridden existence, there will be a one-thousand year kingdom on earth (Revelation 5:10; 20:4). Jesus referred to this as "the coming eon" (Mark 10:30). This gives way to a new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), which is yet another eon (Ephesians 2:7). Those who receive faith now live during these two future eons. This is the life Paul spoke of when he said, "the gift of God is eonian life" (Romans 6:23). Jesus spoke continually of this life. This is the way that Jesus referred to as "narrow" (Matthew 7:14). The narrow way had to do with Israel and the few who would enter immortal into that millennial kingdom, not with the eternal fate of the majority of mankind (Matthew 15:24).
The word eon will be strange to some. It mustn’t be any longer. This noun and its adjective ("eonian") appear in the New Testament over 190 times (in the original Greek) as aion and aionion. Why haven’t many recognized them in our English versions? Because "expert translators" have decided to interpret rather than translate. More on this in a moment.
No two words in the history of man have been so tortured as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Eternal torment is built on the sand of mistranslation, slipped easily upon saints who would like eternal torment to be true, if only to anoint themselves "divine messengers" on a "great commission," mandated "by God" to lord fear and power over lesser men under the misnomer: "evangelism."
It is where the King James and other versions unaccountably use eternal and everlasting (for aionion) to describe the chastisement of the wicked that a false Scriptural veneer is lent to an otherwise insane (and inane) concept.
What is an eon?
The following considerations are vitally important to your peace and understanding of God.
Our English word eon is derived from the Greek word aion. (Remember, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.) It even sounds like it and is nearly spelled the same. Obviously, it would be the perfect translation of aion. An eon is "a duration of time." So is an aion. (See W.E. Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Vine defines aion as "an age, era; signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.") Had this word been left to speak for itself (the Concordant Version does that, putting "eon" for aion, always, and "eonian" for aionion, always), the false terror of eternal torment would never have arisen to deceive the saints and turn the world from God. Several versions do translate it consistently. (Besides the Concordant Literal New Testament, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, and Young’s Literal Translation.)
The ineptness of the orthodox translators can be easily verified. Look up the words "ages," "world," "eternal," "everlasting" and "forever" in either a Strong’s or a Young’s concordance. (These reference tools list every word in the King James Version and their source word from the original languages.) You will find that these words, a veritable hodge-podge, are all interpretations of this single Greek noun (aion) and its adjective.
Such interpretations are not only disparate, they are asinine. The same Greek word cannot mean ages in one place and forever in another. Ages have to do with time and plurality, while forever is the opposite of time and defies duplication. (If the reader wishes to imagine two forevers, he may try it. Minors attempting the feat will require adult supervision.) Can one word mean both day and night? Neither can one word mean both time and no time. An orthodox bias has made fools of otherwise intelligent men.
Yet here is the rub. Even where the scriptures speak of the life of believers as eternal, an error is an error.
Eonian a timely word
Eonian life is falsely reported in the King James version and elsewhere as "eternal life." It will come as a shock to many to learn that neither Jesus nor Paul ever spoke of eternal life but rather eonian life, or that life which endures through two future eons (the thousand-year kingdom eon, already discussed, and the new heavens and new earth). If this disclosure spoils the meter in some beloved Christian hymns, let truth conquer cadence.
The initial knee-jerk reaction to this truth is that, since eon and eonian pertain to time, the saints must not live forever. This is faulty reasoning. The saints do live forever, but not because of eonian life. The saints live forever because they are made immortal (1 Corinthians 15:54). Immortal people can’t die, no matter how hard they try.
Eonian life defines life during the coming eons only. As not everyone has this, this term distinguishes those who do. As the eons end (and so they will, see 1 Corinthians 10:11 and Hebrews 9:26), so ends the appellation eonian life. And yet the saints live on, for at the consummation of the eons death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:24-26). If you have enough water to make it to a well, do you die of thirst? Neither does a saint who has eonian life die when the eons yield to deathlessness.
Many suppose that eonian must denote endlessness when describing God, as in Romans 16:26- "the eonian God." (King James wrongly makes this, "the everlasting God.") No. It’s another overreaction.
This verse isn’t trying to tell anyone that God lives forever. Everyone already knows God lives forever. Psalm 102:27 testified long ago that "His years shall have no end." It’s old news. The vital question is: Does God sit on high, removed from our struggles in time, or does He care what happens during the eons? He cares. Thus, He is the eonian God. This does not limit Him to the eons any more than "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" limits Him to those patriarchs.
What about His everlasting mercy? This, too, is limited to the eons. (And yet, verify this, the church would rather teach a lie than rewrite a hymn.) Mercy presupposes unworthies, of which someday there will be a blessed lack. Eternal mercy demands eternal imperfection. Mercy finds no object when all return to Him.
Won’t the saints reign "forever and ever" as King James reports in Revelation 22:5? No. They will reign for the eons. Reign presupposes insubjection, another deficiency unworthy of Christ. Not even Christ reigns forever and ever. scripture says that "He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25).
The King James Version contradicts itself on this count. The KJV translation of Revelation 11:15 reads, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Yet their rendition of 1 Corinthians 15:25 reads, "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."
An accurate translation of Revelation 11:15 eliminates this discrepancy. The Concordant version has, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord’s and His Christ’s, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." (As the phrase "king of kings" highlights one king among others, thus also "eons of the eons" highlights two eons among others. Neither phrase carries the idea of "an endless succession," as commonly supposed.) Discrepancy disappears when God’s words are respected.
It’s a slap in the face of Christ to say that Christ reigns forever. Does He never perfect the universe? He does. He will one day subject everything to God, who will then be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:27-28). With no more insubjection, reign becomes impossible. Christ reigns so well during the eons that He eliminates the need for it for eternity.
Those not blessed with belief now miss these glorious, future eons. They will be dead while the eons run their course, unaware of the passage of time. Is it their fault? No. But Christ died for them just the same. While they miss these eons, they certainly do not miss living with God for eternity, for He is "the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).
Note that the inspired statement does not say He is the Savior exclusively of believers. That would be the lie of Christianity. He indeed saves all, but only those who believe now live through the two future eons. This is the "especially" salvation of the context.
This news should relieve the troubled saint who, as he has been reading this chapter, has ruminated to himself, "You mean they are going to be where I am?" Happy day; they will be dead while you live through the eons. The gift of belief grants you eonian life; they don’t have it. Yet they rise to immortality later at a time known in scripture as "the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:24), when God abolishes the one thing holding them back: death (1 Corinthians 15:26). If they don’t rise to immortality, then God isn’t their Savior and the scriptures lie.
i would even go as far as to suggest another close relationship between "ages" and "days of the lord," textually...as representing the universal, eternal and cyclical nature of all things great and small, one that stimulates the very waves of evolution in the various body, soul and spiritual domains. thus, in history, we can see global and cultural waves of enlightenment and learning and behaviour that can be understood as events taking place during "the hours" of a much larger day. or seasons of a much larger year. or phases of a much larger moon. rife with peaks, quarters, twilights, storm seasons, roosters, rainbows, etc...
i mean, if its round and turns, its naturally gonna produce its own quarters and such. cardinal points, etc...
one thing universal, is the everpresent cycle inherent that rips everything (inlcluding us) to pieces and forces rebirth and evolution of not only body, but soul and spirit and beyond. a flaming sword that turns every way. no one can touch it or remove it. hot as hell. always stirring the pot.
and so always being whipped up by it are successions of windows and twilights and cyclones of awareness in human history, where "the veil" is lifted (or drawn) on the past and future. a dawning of sorts, inside and out, sometimes even as summation experiences on the evolution of consciousness and experience as a unified whole (or whatever you want to call the collective interior domain). which, like all dawns and springs, is a rapid period of change and excitement (and violence and danger).
increased awareness and experience and "acceptance" or "defeat" of this universal "enemy/devil/hell" frees us from the duality of that primal enmity, enables us to rest and relax and go thru the many changes of rebirths that we can face in one human lifespan (now that we're no longer spiritual wussies)
(not to mention giving us greater accuracy in "forecasting" peaks, waves, shifts, trends, changes, emergence in any field of study/ology, even looking beyond our own lifespan.)
literally falling in love again with that divine unity, in body, soul and that creative spirit.
on a side note: i would also suggest that our mortal life is simply one season in the much longer and wider life of an older more collective being of soul. and it is this larger aspect of ourselves that is living and dying to the ebb and flow of this greater kosmological day/age being discussed. and what a gift...all language and racial context is transcended and included in this "place." such as scriptural racism (which Jesus and his students obviously came to free the wisdom of the jews from).
on these subtler planes, perhaps our eternal existance has already been woven and begun, and somehow revamped and restarted from age to age to age. The Christ simply comes and goes and comes and goes, from hour to hour to day to day. bigger and better every time, truly having a name beyond all names (by ultimately resting in the oceanic nameless, as a cosmic surfer of heavenly tides)
I have read this thread in it's entirity, and was curious about those who believe that in the end of all things, all that has ever been will be reconsiled to God, whether spirit beings or human beings.
My only question is how do you pen knife out of the Word of God everything regarding those who will not believe on the Son of God? Will not inherit means only for awhile?
I really trying to understand what you are saying.
def59 has asked you all to put up the scriptures that will define this as altimate truth, which is all important in all things believed, but if it doesn't matter what people believe, then I can understand why you don't post the truth of it, because it doesn't matter.
CWF, I have already offered 15 pages of material and bible verses to look at. Chuck has already offered over 20 pages. Sorry we don't have a nice neat little formula for you like "Believing equals Receiving" or "Needs and Wants Parallel". Instead we have offered a number of verses with explanations for yours and others consideration on this subject. I was saving the writing below because I thought there was already enough material on this thread to digest for awhile and perhaps people should reread some of the posts.
Nevertheless below is something on a verse (Matthew 25:46) that is used to try to prove eternal torment for most of the population. The link to this is below.
It is sad to note, but nevertheless true, that most Christians do not realize there are very dramatic differences in translation from one Bible to another. We have heard so often that the "inspired" or "inerrant" Word of God is basically the same in all translations. This is just not true. But one will not see this unless they place several side by side and make some comparisons. Listed below are a few translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 25:46.
Concerning the duration of chastening, Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, wherewith one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age (and elsewhere) This Bible does not use the word "Hell" at all.
Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of the incorrect and quite frankly, blasphemous "everlasting punishment." This phrase "everlasting punishment," when one really thinks about it, renders the work of Christ worthless. It says that His forgiveness, His love, His grace, His mercy, the power of His blood, all these and more become limited when one translates "aionion kolasin" as "everlasting punishment."
"And these shall go away -abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
There are other Bible translations besides these which have either completely eliminated the concept of eternal punishment from their pages, or have made great strides towards wiping this pagan concept off God's Word. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment" and "Hell." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
In summary, then, as we gain more knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages, the pagan concept of "eternal punishment" is becoming manifest as a pagan concept which cannot be found in the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, more and more of the translations printed since the King James Bible of 1611 have dramatically departed from the King's translators translations for words closer to the actual Greek and Hebrew meanings rather than "tradition." The word "Hell," for example, has almost completely disappeared from most translations in the Old Testament. It occurs in most translations only 11 to 14 times and not at all in many translations. The day will come when the pagan concept of "Hell" will no longer be found in any Bible translation. It wasn't in the original languages. The foundation of the Bible, that is, the Old Testament, knows of no such place. Why should we perpetuate Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Angle-Saxon mythology? This is where the concept came from. Here is where the word "Hell," the goddess of the underworld, came from. Leave it there. This idea does not belong on the previous pages of our Bibles.
CWF, did you know that the Thayer's lexicon definition of the Greek word translated as punishment in Matthew 25:46 is first listed as "correction"? Here is the word from the Thayer's lexicon.
There are only 2 usages of this Greek word for "punishment" in the New Testament so we don't have a lot to go by. However, from the above this could mean correction first and foremost and only secondarily punishment or penalty. This should be a considerable distinction.
Mark - Thanks for your posts on this thread. Up to now, I didn't hold a Biblical Universalist view (?the right word for it?), but then, I hadn't given it much thought.
When I lived on the submarine, we had a machine called the "8K". It was a distilling machine that extracted potable water from sea water, and it was called the "8K" because it had an eight thousand gallon per day capacity.
Sometimes calcium scale would build up on the inside of the 8K, decreasing its efficiency. When that would happen, we would run a shot of cold water through it, and the thermal shock would cause the calcium scales to break loose. This process was called "chill shocking the 8K".
In our USS Pogy dialect, the phrase "chill shocking your 8K" came to mean revealing information that might cause a paradigm shift.
Your posts, Mark, have certainly chill shocked my 8K!
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And not to derail this thread, but "Cheers" was not exactly my favorite sitcom
;)-->
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Chuck:
I have read a few of your posts here. I think you are doing an excellent job of explaining this subject which for some Christians is difficult to accept and understand. I applaud you.
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def59
CK
If the Bible is not God's word, then from where do you get your inspiration?
How can you call it Biblical Universalism, when the Bible doesn't play a role at all.
Still no one answers my question:
Was Jesus lying when he said the wicked will go into the eternal lake of fire?
And yes, I've looked up Aion, and it does indeed mean eternal.
I am not dodging, distracting nor evading any of your questions.
But no one wants to seem to answer mine. I started this thread because this doctrine appears false to me.
The Bible is my rule of faith. If you think its BS, well, your in great company.
Edited by DefCon59Link to comment
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def59
Here's what another scholar says about it.
1. Aion, an age, is translated eternal in Eph 3:11 lit. (purpose) of the ages (marg.) and 1 Tim 1:17, lit. (king) of the ages.
2. Aionios, "describes the duration, either undefined but not endless as in Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2, or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26 and the other 66 places in the NT.
The author goes on to show that the word used of persons and things which are in their nature, "endless"
examples: God, Rom 16:26; His power, 1 Tim 6:16, His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12; and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9; as well of his future rule, 2 Peter 1:11; which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life receieved by those who believe in Jesus Christ, John 3:16, concerning what He said, "they shall never perish," 10:28; and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be immortal, 1 Cor 15:33; in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46, Titus 1:2.
Aionos is also used of the sin that "hath not forgiveness' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of the instruments, Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be "unquenchable,: Mark 9:43.
"The use of ainos here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Thess 1:9 is not temporary, but final, and accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retrubutive."*
From the notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp 232-233.
Vines Expository dictionary of New Testament words
W.E. Vine
Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, Mass.
So you can say that aion means and age that there is an end, but logically that means that our salvation has an end and God has an end.
citing
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def, thanks for starting this thread. You have been given plenty of excellent biblical information to at least consider the possibility. It was only a couple of years ago that I heard about this possibility. As I scripturally weigh the evidence I am more and more leaning towards the likelyhood that Jesus Christ came for the reconciliation of all men to God.
As I said before the "Lake of Fire" in the book of Revelation is a fire of purification. From the Greek text the word fire is the Greek word 'pur'. Below is a partial definition from Thayer's unabridged. I did not include the entire definition because it is a long one. This definition points out that "pur" has a similar word "pu" from the Sanskrit which means "to purify".
NT:4442
pur,
genitive puros, to (probably from Sanskrit pu, "to purify" (compare the German: fever); Vanicek (1877 f), Griechisch-Lateinisches Etymologisches W?rbuch, p. 541; Curtius (50 A.D.) (1879), sec. 385), from Homer (900 B.C.?) down; Hebrew 'eesh;
fire: Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 17:15; Mark 9:22; Luke 3:9,17; 9:54; John 15:6; Acts 2:19; 28:5; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 11:34; James 3:5; 5:3; Rev 8:5,7; 9:17,18; 11:5; 13:13; 14:18; 15:2; 16:8; 20:9;
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)
Besides what we read in chapters 19 & 20 of the book of Revelation. Here are some other usages of this Greek word for fire "pur" from the New Testament. Please note in all the verses below I am including the English word which is translated from the Greek word "pur" surrounded by quotation marks. From reading these verses it should be more than obvious that in many usages this word "pur" refers to a fire of purification. I am not saying that this purification written about in the book of Revelation is a pleasant experience or without pain. Just like chastisement when we are wrong is sometimes painful. However, it is a necessary one for the reconciliation of man.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":
KJV
Matt 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".
KJV
Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.
KJV
Acts 2:3
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.
KJV
Rom 12:20
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".
KJV
Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".
KJV
1 Peter 1:7
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by "fire", may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJV
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CKnapp3
You might do well to read II Peter 1:20-21. It tells you plainly that inspiration cannot be put clearly in human terms. It is only vague.
As far as the bible being your rule of faith, you swear by the letter of the word, and NOT by the Spirit of the letter. That is why your devotion to it is idolatrous. You're right up there with the Pharisees and Scribes. With all your bible knowledge, you could be prime choice to do Satan's bidding, since he loves to quote scripture.
In the past several days I find that the more I answer your questions, the more you want to argue. Just what do you think you will accomplish by arguing with Mark and I? That you are a biblical know-it-all?
Perhaps John, chapt. 5 could apply to you, particularly verses 39 and 40. You trust more in your King James Bible more than you do God. I pointed out from your own beloved bible that you are NOT going to inherit the Kingdom of God because you fit one of the criteria for disqualification. What? You expect the inheritance? Then you could be the one that will be "weeping and gnashing his teeth" in the outer darkness, because you missed out on the inhertiance you so desired, and perhaps even LUSTED (yes, I do mean LUSTED!) after. But you take that as a warning to the world, when it is in fact a warning TO THE CHURCH! Therefore you feel since that warning doesn't apply to you, you disregard it and pay no heed. I'm convinced that you are hard headed and proud, and then you come back and falsely accuse me of blasphemy. OK, if I'm guilty of blasphemy, PROVE IT!!!!!
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CKnapp3
If anyone really wants to sincerely discuss Biblical Universalism, let me know and I'll start a private topic.
Otherwise, I'm going to ask Paw to close this thread.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def, your study of "aion" is lacking. Try these usages and see if you can figure it out. Again the word translated "aion" is in quotation marks. What do all these uages directly below have in common you ask? They show that the word for "aion", which should be translated age, often is shown to have an ending. How can this be if the word for age is the same as eternal?
Matt 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.
KJV
Matt 13:39-40
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?
KJV
Matt 28:20
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.
KJV
1 Cor 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought
KJV
1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.
KJV
Gal 1:4-5
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.
KJV
Eph 1:21
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:
KJV
2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
KJV
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
KJV
And below we see "age" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "age" is not synonomous with eternal.
Luke 1:70
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:
KJV
John 9:32
32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
KJV
Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".
KJV
Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".
KJV
1 Cor 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:
KJV
Eph 3:9
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
KJV
Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonomous with eternal.
Luke 18:30
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.
KJV
Eph 2:7
7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
KJV
Heb 6:5
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,
KJV
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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Mark Sanguinetti
Chuck let's leave this thread up for those that want knowledge and understanding on this subject. There is plenty here that is convincing for those that want new light. All can compare our posts with Def's.
Thanks again for starting this thread Def, but honestly your posts here lack insight and scholarly workmanship. However, you will be in my prayers that God can open the eyes of your understanding.
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CKnapp3
Fair enough with me Mark, also check your private topics.
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CKnapp3
Def, you ask where I get my inspiration, obviously from the Holy Spirit.
I had first considered Universalism as a possibility 18 years ago. Without being exposed to any Universalist literature, I have done some studying to determine if Universalism could be true. I have determined that it was. Now I know it has to be true, because it was only about maybe 7 years ago when I was first exposed to Universalist literature, and I find that they drew the exact same conclusions that I have drawn. Coincidence???? Do you want to dismiss this as devils communicating? Remember, Jesus was also accused of being in league with Satan. Why would Satan want anyone to believe that they will live where nothing but peace and safety prevail constantly? I would think Satan is the one who wants people to be afraid of hell, with all the worst things that could happen imaginable. And if you have Satan's favor, he might convince you that you will be making life miserable for your enemies, and therefore you yourself will be happy. My happiness doesn't require making people's lives miserable. My own happiness can only be guaranteed on condition that all will eventually be brought to happiness. Therefore Def, because you believe that many will be eternally unhappy, your own happiness in eternity has no guarantee. If you think otherwise, you could very will be deceiving yourself. I do believe you will (if you have yet to be) be saved, but not until you see the error of your ways. At least under my belief system, when you see the error of your ways, you still have hope. Under your own, a person will be forced to see the error of his ways, and will also be brought to an understanding that he has lost all hope. You definitely subscribe to the slogan of Hades, "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter".
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TheInvisibleDan
My hat off to Chuck and Mark and everyone here
for such an interesting thread.
I was introduced several years ago to the idea that Christ or Krestus would save all humanity through the works of A.E. Knoch and Concordant Concern Publishers. After years of the old, stale Wayshua teachings, Knoch's stuff was a much-needed breath of fresh air, and while I may not necessarily agree nowadays with his hair-splitting methodology, I can still greatly appreciate the heart of love behind his work.
"Salvation" for "all mankind"?
It's perfectly in keeping with the benevolent character of Christ/Krestus.
It sounds like something Jesus would do.
Danny
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def59
In the past several days I find that the more I answer your questions, the more you want to argue. Just what do you think you will accomplish by arguing with Mark and I? That you are a biblical know-it-all?
I ask questions and offer proofs of my beliefs. You are the one who is getting angry and offer only opinion.
Perhaps John, chapt. 5 could apply to you, particularly verses 39 and 40. You trust more in your King James Bible more than you do God. I pointed out from your own beloved bible that you are NOT going to inherit the Kingdom of God because you fit one of the criteria for disqualification. What? You expect the inheritance? Then you could be the one that will be "weeping and gnashing his teeth" in the outer darkness, because you missed out on the inhertiance you so desired, and perhaps even _LUSTED_ (yes, I do mean LUSTED!) after. But you take that as a warning to the world, when it is in fact a warning _TO THE CHURCH!_ Therefore you feel since that warning doesn't apply to you, you disregard it and pay no heed. I'm convinced that you are hard headed and proud, and then you come back and falsely accuse me of blasphemy. OK, if I'm guilty of blasphemy, _PROVE IT!!!!!_
I could say the same thing about you. But you are wrong, I hold no allegiance to the KJV. So let's get our facts straight first.
As for the John passage, I have come to Christ, he is my lord and saviour, my ETERNAL lord and Saviour. Or do you think that is only for an "age" as well?
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def59
Ok
Here's a serious question.
When should we translate aionon as "eternal" and when for an "age?"
If I understand the tentmaker.org site, aionon only means "age" a limited amount of time.
But what about when the word aionon is used in reference to God? Does this mean God is limited?
This is a serious question and an attempt on my part to restore some decorum to this thread.
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def59
And you walk on thin ice as the flames of hell lap at your heels.
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def59
Chuck
Another point, do you consider that Jesus used figurative speech when he referred to Gehenna. It was a real place, no doubt. Human sacrifice was done there. In Jesus' time it was used as a garbage incinerator.
He was using word pictures to show us what eternity without God will be like.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Def, I am giving you another chance to re-evaluate your false religion of fire and torment. Below I am reposting scriptures that show usages of the exact same word used in the book of Revelation phrase "Lake of Fire". Again the word for "fire" is in quotation marks. This is the exact same Greek word from the text which you say is so precious to you. Among other things these verses show the following:
'baptizing with fire',
'burning up the chaff with fire',
'cloven tongues like fire appearing on the apostles on the day of Pentecost',
'an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire' (Was this angel of God being tormented also?),
'heaping coals of fire on ones head' (which in this context was the equivalent of feeding and giving drink to ones enemy),
'every man's works being revealed by fire, then suffering loss by fire, then finally saved by fire',
'the believer's works being tested by fire'.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":
KJV
Matt 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".
KJV
Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.
KJV
Acts 2:3
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.
KJV
Rom 12:20
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".
KJV
Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".
KJV
1 Peter 1:7
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by "fire", may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
NKJV
Def, isn't it yet time to re-evaluate your religious beliefs?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Below is an article that explains the difference between the related Greek words "aion" and "aionion". The web site link is at the end.
Eonian life, not eternal life
It is common knowledge among students of the Bible that, following this evil-ridden existence, there will be a one-thousand year kingdom on earth (Revelation 5:10; 20:4). Jesus referred to this as "the coming eon" (Mark 10:30). This gives way to a new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), which is yet another eon (Ephesians 2:7). Those who receive faith now live during these two future eons. This is the life Paul spoke of when he said, "the gift of God is eonian life" (Romans 6:23). Jesus spoke continually of this life. This is the way that Jesus referred to as "narrow" (Matthew 7:14). The narrow way had to do with Israel and the few who would enter immortal into that millennial kingdom, not with the eternal fate of the majority of mankind (Matthew 15:24).
The word eon will be strange to some. It mustn’t be any longer. This noun and its adjective ("eonian") appear in the New Testament over 190 times (in the original Greek) as aion and aionion. Why haven’t many recognized them in our English versions? Because "expert translators" have decided to interpret rather than translate. More on this in a moment.
No two words in the history of man have been so tortured as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Eternal torment is built on the sand of mistranslation, slipped easily upon saints who would like eternal torment to be true, if only to anoint themselves "divine messengers" on a "great commission," mandated "by God" to lord fear and power over lesser men under the misnomer: "evangelism."
It is where the King James and other versions unaccountably use eternal and everlasting (for aionion) to describe the chastisement of the wicked that a false Scriptural veneer is lent to an otherwise insane (and inane) concept.
What is an eon?
The following considerations are vitally important to your peace and understanding of God.
Our English word eon is derived from the Greek word aion. (Remember, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.) It even sounds like it and is nearly spelled the same. Obviously, it would be the perfect translation of aion. An eon is "a duration of time." So is an aion. (See W.E. Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Vine defines aion as "an age, era; signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.") Had this word been left to speak for itself (the Concordant Version does that, putting "eon" for aion, always, and "eonian" for aionion, always), the false terror of eternal torment would never have arisen to deceive the saints and turn the world from God. Several versions do translate it consistently. (Besides the Concordant Literal New Testament, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, and Young’s Literal Translation.)
The ineptness of the orthodox translators can be easily verified. Look up the words "ages," "world," "eternal," "everlasting" and "forever" in either a Strong’s or a Young’s concordance. (These reference tools list every word in the King James Version and their source word from the original languages.) You will find that these words, a veritable hodge-podge, are all interpretations of this single Greek noun (aion) and its adjective.
Such interpretations are not only disparate, they are asinine. The same Greek word cannot mean ages in one place and forever in another. Ages have to do with time and plurality, while forever is the opposite of time and defies duplication. (If the reader wishes to imagine two forevers, he may try it. Minors attempting the feat will require adult supervision.) Can one word mean both day and night? Neither can one word mean both time and no time. An orthodox bias has made fools of otherwise intelligent men.
Yet here is the rub. Even where the scriptures speak of the life of believers as eternal, an error is an error.
Eonian a timely word
Eonian life is falsely reported in the King James version and elsewhere as "eternal life." It will come as a shock to many to learn that neither Jesus nor Paul ever spoke of eternal life but rather eonian life, or that life which endures through two future eons (the thousand-year kingdom eon, already discussed, and the new heavens and new earth). If this disclosure spoils the meter in some beloved Christian hymns, let truth conquer cadence.
The initial knee-jerk reaction to this truth is that, since eon and eonian pertain to time, the saints must not live forever. This is faulty reasoning. The saints do live forever, but not because of eonian life. The saints live forever because they are made immortal (1 Corinthians 15:54). Immortal people can’t die, no matter how hard they try.
Eonian life defines life during the coming eons only. As not everyone has this, this term distinguishes those who do. As the eons end (and so they will, see 1 Corinthians 10:11 and Hebrews 9:26), so ends the appellation eonian life. And yet the saints live on, for at the consummation of the eons death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:24-26). If you have enough water to make it to a well, do you die of thirst? Neither does a saint who has eonian life die when the eons yield to deathlessness.
Many suppose that eonian must denote endlessness when describing God, as in Romans 16:26- "the eonian God." (King James wrongly makes this, "the everlasting God.") No. It’s another overreaction.
This verse isn’t trying to tell anyone that God lives forever. Everyone already knows God lives forever. Psalm 102:27 testified long ago that "His years shall have no end." It’s old news. The vital question is: Does God sit on high, removed from our struggles in time, or does He care what happens during the eons? He cares. Thus, He is the eonian God. This does not limit Him to the eons any more than "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" limits Him to those patriarchs.
What about His everlasting mercy? This, too, is limited to the eons. (And yet, verify this, the church would rather teach a lie than rewrite a hymn.) Mercy presupposes unworthies, of which someday there will be a blessed lack. Eternal mercy demands eternal imperfection. Mercy finds no object when all return to Him.
Won’t the saints reign "forever and ever" as King James reports in Revelation 22:5? No. They will reign for the eons. Reign presupposes insubjection, another deficiency unworthy of Christ. Not even Christ reigns forever and ever. scripture says that "He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25).
The King James Version contradicts itself on this count. The KJV translation of Revelation 11:15 reads, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Yet their rendition of 1 Corinthians 15:25 reads, "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."
An accurate translation of Revelation 11:15 eliminates this discrepancy. The Concordant version has, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord’s and His Christ’s, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." (As the phrase "king of kings" highlights one king among others, thus also "eons of the eons" highlights two eons among others. Neither phrase carries the idea of "an endless succession," as commonly supposed.) Discrepancy disappears when God’s words are respected.
It’s a slap in the face of Christ to say that Christ reigns forever. Does He never perfect the universe? He does. He will one day subject everything to God, who will then be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:27-28). With no more insubjection, reign becomes impossible. Christ reigns so well during the eons that He eliminates the need for it for eternity.
Those not blessed with belief now miss these glorious, future eons. They will be dead while the eons run their course, unaware of the passage of time. Is it their fault? No. But Christ died for them just the same. While they miss these eons, they certainly do not miss living with God for eternity, for He is "the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).
Note that the inspired statement does not say He is the Savior exclusively of believers. That would be the lie of Christianity. He indeed saves all, but only those who believe now live through the two future eons. This is the "especially" salvation of the context.
This news should relieve the troubled saint who, as he has been reading this chapter, has ruminated to himself, "You mean they are going to be where I am?" Happy day; they will be dead while you live through the eons. The gift of belief grants you eonian life; they don’t have it. Yet they rise to immortality later at a time known in scripture as "the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:24), when God abolishes the one thing holding them back: death (1 Corinthians 15:26). If they don’t rise to immortality, then God isn’t their Savior and the scriptures lie.
I prefer to believe that religion lies.
ALL things © copyright 2001-2004 by Martin Zender. All rights reserved.
http://martinzender.com/eonion_life_not_eternal_life.htm
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sirguessalot
taking a break from a flooring job...
permit a tad rant on "Biblical Universalism"...
i would even go as far as to suggest another close relationship between "ages" and "days of the lord," textually...as representing the universal, eternal and cyclical nature of all things great and small, one that stimulates the very waves of evolution in the various body, soul and spiritual domains. thus, in history, we can see global and cultural waves of enlightenment and learning and behaviour that can be understood as events taking place during "the hours" of a much larger day. or seasons of a much larger year. or phases of a much larger moon. rife with peaks, quarters, twilights, storm seasons, roosters, rainbows, etc...
i mean, if its round and turns, its naturally gonna produce its own quarters and such. cardinal points, etc...
one thing universal, is the everpresent cycle inherent that rips everything (inlcluding us) to pieces and forces rebirth and evolution of not only body, but soul and spirit and beyond. a flaming sword that turns every way. no one can touch it or remove it. hot as hell. always stirring the pot.
and so always being whipped up by it are successions of windows and twilights and cyclones of awareness in human history, where "the veil" is lifted (or drawn) on the past and future. a dawning of sorts, inside and out, sometimes even as summation experiences on the evolution of consciousness and experience as a unified whole (or whatever you want to call the collective interior domain). which, like all dawns and springs, is a rapid period of change and excitement (and violence and danger).
increased awareness and experience and "acceptance" or "defeat" of this universal "enemy/devil/hell" frees us from the duality of that primal enmity, enables us to rest and relax and go thru the many changes of rebirths that we can face in one human lifespan (now that we're no longer spiritual wussies)
(not to mention giving us greater accuracy in "forecasting" peaks, waves, shifts, trends, changes, emergence in any field of study/ology, even looking beyond our own lifespan.)
literally falling in love again with that divine unity, in body, soul and that creative spirit.
on a side note: i would also suggest that our mortal life is simply one season in the much longer and wider life of an older more collective being of soul. and it is this larger aspect of ourselves that is living and dying to the ebb and flow of this greater kosmological day/age being discussed. and what a gift...all language and racial context is transcended and included in this "place." such as scriptural racism (which Jesus and his students obviously came to free the wisdom of the jews from).
on these subtler planes, perhaps our eternal existance has already been woven and begun, and somehow revamped and restarted from age to age to age. The Christ simply comes and goes and comes and goes, from hour to hour to day to day. bigger and better every time, truly having a name beyond all names (by ultimately resting in the oceanic nameless, as a cosmic surfer of heavenly tides)
ok...back to knuckle-banging
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CWF
I have read this thread in it's entirity, and was curious about those who believe that in the end of all things, all that has ever been will be reconsiled to God, whether spirit beings or human beings.
My only question is how do you pen knife out of the Word of God everything regarding those who will not believe on the Son of God? Will not inherit means only for awhile?
I really trying to understand what you are saying.
def59 has asked you all to put up the scriptures that will define this as altimate truth, which is all important in all things believed, but if it doesn't matter what people believe, then I can understand why you don't post the truth of it, because it doesn't matter.
Be Nice,
Grandpa
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Mark Sanguinetti
CWF, I have already offered 15 pages of material and bible verses to look at. Chuck has already offered over 20 pages. Sorry we don't have a nice neat little formula for you like "Believing equals Receiving" or "Needs and Wants Parallel". Instead we have offered a number of verses with explanations for yours and others consideration on this subject. I was saving the writing below because I thought there was already enough material on this thread to digest for awhile and perhaps people should reread some of the posts.
Nevertheless below is something on a verse (Matthew 25:46) that is used to try to prove eternal torment for most of the population. The link to this is below.
An Analytical Study of Words
Chapter Ten
Bibles Without
"Everlasting Punishment"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
-New Testament in Modern Speech
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
-Concordant Literal Translation
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
-Young's Literal Translation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is sad to note, but nevertheless true, that most Christians do not realize there are very dramatic differences in translation from one Bible to another. We have heard so often that the "inspired" or "inerrant" Word of God is basically the same in all translations. This is just not true. But one will not see this unless they place several side by side and make some comparisons. Listed below are a few translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 25:46.
Concerning the duration of chastening, Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, wherewith one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age (and elsewhere) This Bible does not use the word "Hell" at all.
Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of the incorrect and quite frankly, blasphemous "everlasting punishment." This phrase "everlasting punishment," when one really thinks about it, renders the work of Christ worthless. It says that His forgiveness, His love, His grace, His mercy, the power of His blood, all these and more become limited when one translates "aionion kolasin" as "everlasting punishment."
"And these shall go away -abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
There are other Bible translations besides these which have either completely eliminated the concept of eternal punishment from their pages, or have made great strides towards wiping this pagan concept off God's Word. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment" and "Hell." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
In summary, then, as we gain more knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages, the pagan concept of "eternal punishment" is becoming manifest as a pagan concept which cannot be found in the original languages of the Bible. Therefore, more and more of the translations printed since the King James Bible of 1611 have dramatically departed from the King's translators translations for words closer to the actual Greek and Hebrew meanings rather than "tradition." The word "Hell," for example, has almost completely disappeared from most translations in the Old Testament. It occurs in most translations only 11 to 14 times and not at all in many translations. The day will come when the pagan concept of "Hell" will no longer be found in any Bible translation. It wasn't in the original languages. The foundation of the Bible, that is, the Old Testament, knows of no such place. Why should we perpetuate Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Babylonian, and Angle-Saxon mythology? This is where the concept came from. Here is where the word "Hell," the goddess of the underworld, came from. Leave it there. This idea does not belong on the previous pages of our Bibles.
http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/abbott/abbot10.htm
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Mark Sanguinetti
CWF, did you know that the Thayer's lexicon definition of the Greek word translated as punishment in Matthew 25:46 is first listed as "correction"? Here is the word from the Thayer's lexicon.
NT:2851
kolasis, kolaseoos, hee
correction, punishment, penalty: Matt 25:46
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)
There are only 2 usages of this Greek word for "punishment" in the New Testament so we don't have a lot to go by. However, from the above this could mean correction first and foremost and only secondarily punishment or penalty. This should be a considerable distinction.
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Steve Lortz
Mark - Thanks for your posts on this thread. Up to now, I didn't hold a Biblical Universalist view (?the right word for it?), but then, I hadn't given it much thought.
When I lived on the submarine, we had a machine called the "8K". It was a distilling machine that extracted potable water from sea water, and it was called the "8K" because it had an eight thousand gallon per day capacity.
Sometimes calcium scale would build up on the inside of the 8K, decreasing its efficiency. When that would happen, we would run a shot of cold water through it, and the thermal shock would cause the calcium scales to break loose. This process was called "chill shocking the 8K".
In our USS Pogy dialect, the phrase "chill shocking your 8K" came to mean revealing information that might cause a paradigm shift.
Your posts, Mark, have certainly chill shocked my 8K!
Love,
Steve
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you Steve. Coming from you, someone who is as spiritually insightful as anyone on this board, that is a compliment.
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