Hi Cknapp, no, I believe they will have no judgment.
Isa 26:14: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore has thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."
"Deceased" is the word Rapha, which some scholars believe is a reference to Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them.
Also, the verse in Dan. 2:43: "And wherease thou sawest iron (nephilim) mixed with miry clay (man-adam), they (Nephilim) shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history).
I think the mingling of the seed of God's created angels, with the seed of human kind - God's wonderful new creation - is an abomination to God. Nephilim truly are seed of the devil. They cannot be rehabilitated. Just as a Bundy or Dahmer can not be rehabilitated. They love beauty, and they love the evil they do.
I think Nephilim are what is meant when in Genesis, we are told of the conflict between God's seed and Satan's seed - I will put enmity between your seed and thy seed.... It continues to this day.
I believe the only "people" thrown into the lake of fire, if one insists people will be thrown there, are nephilim - those of iron - not human. God's crown of creation, humanity, will all be saved, maybe not all at the same time period, but eventually, in different time periods, in different ways.
When all is said and done, at the end, earth, and its story of God, the devil, good and evil, mankind, nephilim, Christ, Triumph - all of this will be the epic of the universe, like the tale of the ring.
Once I understood Nephilim, everything made sense and fell into place.
I believe the only "people" thrown into the lake of fire, if one insists people will be thrown there, are nephilim - those of iron - not human. God's crown of creation, humanity, will all be saved, maybe not all at the same time period, but eventually, in different time periods, in different ways.
Here's what Jesus and the NT writers had to say: All verses NIV.
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 16:24
So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Hebrews 10:27
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Hebrews 12:29
for our “God is a consuming fire.” [ Deut. 4:24]
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 8:5 and 7
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
Revelation 9:18
A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
Revelation 16:8
The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire.
Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
I think we are talking about more than just "nephilim" here.
I have heard that God sent the flood to destroy the Nephilim because their evil was so great.
And CKnapp, I admire your faith in God's goodness, but the Bible does talk about eternal damnation and punishment and how not everyone will go to heaven. I see nothing in Scripture that supports this position.
Could you share some verses and not attacks?
I've already quoted you some. If you are looking for references, I don't remember the references offhand, and I don't have the time to get them. I suggest you make use of a good conconrdance if you need to find the references for yourself. Besides, quoting references sounds to me like being a show-off. Jesus never quoted them, so why should I.
But while we are on the subject of bible knowledge, you can know every single word in the bible and yet have NO LOVE! It is also written: "Knowledge makes you proud, but love builds" I would rather be in the company of someone who lacked bible knowledge and had lots of love than someone who has a bunch of bible knowledge and have lots of hate. Furhtermore, the loving person who lacks bible knowledge isn't going to have any means of deceiving me.
BTW, the word "eternal" in eternal punishemnt is the Greek word "aion" and should mean "for an age", not "all endless time" The purpose of punishment is for correction, not for revenge.
And as far as God sending a flood is concerned, God can destroy, and he can rebuild from the ruins too. Do you believe this Def? Never mind what the bible might say. I'm not asking you what the bible says, I'm asking you what YOU believe. But if you must go by the bible, I've said this time and time again that it is written: NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.
OK, maybe I'm saying everyone is going to heaven as a vernacular, since everyone equates heaven with eternal life. It isn't so much everyone is going to heaven as much as it is NOBODY is going to hell forever. I do believe everyone will live in paradise. There is a difference between paradise and heaven of course. Besides, what exactly is hell anyway? The bible also says that hell will be destroyed! So much for your "eternal" hell. Also it is written "There will be NO MORE PAIN". THERE!!!! That statement is an absolute one, not a relative one. TWI had that one right,(though it's not unique to them) though their reasoning may be a little faulty.
Sunesis, you said: "You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history)."
I don't believe Satan has any plans of his own, God gave Satan what power he has. It is written,(this is God speaking) "I will have compassion on whom I will, and will harden whom I will". God for instance hardened the Pharoah's heart that "He may show his power to Israel". Does God need Satan? Yes and No. God doesn't need Satan to exercise his power. However we wouldn't know God's goodness with out the contrast of evil, which Satan is commissioned to exercise. It is written that God creates both good AND EVIL. Satan is NOT the creator of evil, GOD IS. And one day, when its work is finished, God will destroy evil and Satan both. But I don't think Satan will vanish into some sort of phantom existence. It's likely he will be recreated for some other purpose that God has in his own plans. Just like when you dismantle an old worn out automobile. That particular automobile has been in fact DESTROYED. The steel used in that auto is recycled and made into something else, perhaps a another new automobile. Better still, what about beating (DESTROYING) our swords (instruments of death) into plowshares (instruments of life), as it is so written?
I believe Hitler was part of God's plan, perhaps to punish Israel one more time because they strayed away, something they are famous for doing. What happened 3 years after the fall of Hitler? Israel was returned to the Jews after they were in exile for almost 19 centuries. :)--> And Christianity better take heed and also heed the warning of Jesus, who said "except you repent, you will likewise perish"! I see another rise of a Hitler type dictator, and this time he will be after Christians. Well, look what's happening to Christians in this country. They cry that their rights are constantly being violated by the ACLU for instance. Communism has also been proven to be a threat to the church. And though it has fallen, it could easily rise again (what is the prophecy about the beast with the deadly wound that was healed?). Incidently, Communism IS NOT A THREAT to the saints :)--> It never was, and never will be. But to the filthy whoremongering churches, it can pose a BIG threat.
Interesting question Def, about those who are not found in the book of life being thrown into the lake of fire. I would imagine, if someone is not in the book of life, he is in the book of the dead. Who are those already dead? If they are not written in the book of life, it is because they are already dead. I believe we are not talking about "clay" here. Good question, I will think more on it.
CKnapp, I respectfully disagree. I believe, as the Word says, Satan was second in command with God until pride brought him down. I do believe his goal is to be worshipped as the most high. He and his minions are no longer free to roam around the planets - this is his base of operations. He is the prince of the earth and the air. This is his domain, he can do with it as he will. That is why Christ came to save us from his dominion and power. We may be on this earth, but we are no longer his.
I think Hitlers, and others throughout history who enjoy slaughter and destruction are Satan's trial runs for the final showdown.
Sometimes, there are people who are far beyond simply devil possessed. It is as if they are from another planet, an alien being. One of Hitler's goals was creating a new race of Gods. It wasn't just about supermen. A little bit of Satanic inspiration there?
I also believe that those who reject Christ, after having had a chance to hear about him and consider him, will be sent to the lake of fire.
I believe that God is just enough and loving enough to "save" as many people as possible.
I believe Jesus when he talks about a place of eternal torment and gnashing of teeth. There are no second chances.
I believe that God will reject those who rejected him. He says his creation is proof of his existence, so rejecting him is a choice.
I believe in deathbed confessions — the thief on the cross is my example.
I believe God does not tolerate sin and does not force his will on anyone. He calls us his children, what kind of good father is going to turn his children into robots.
I also believe in the Bible as the Holy word of God. So if my use of Bible verses offends you, too bad. It is my rulebook for life, so how else am I to share with you why I believe as I do.
I believe the Way's doctrines to be Satan-inspired and have rejected all of them. Just as Satan uses a little truth to entice, the way sounds all Christian and everything, but the bottom line is they have rejected sound instruction and went off on many tangents: Jesus, the holy spirit, the afterlife and tongues.
I also believe that those who reject Christ, after having had a chance to hear about him and consider him, will be sent to the lake of fire.
I believe that God is just enough and loving enough to "save" as many people as possible.
I believe Jesus when he talks about a place of eternal torment and gnashing of teeth. There are no second chances.
I believe that God will reject those who rejected him. He says his creation is proof of his existence, so rejecting him is a choice.
I believe in deathbed confessions — the thief on the cross is my example.
I believe God does not tolerate sin and does not force his will on anyone. He calls us his children, what kind of good father is going to turn his children into robots.
I also believe in the Bible as the Holy word of God. So if my use of Bible verses offends you, too bad. It is my rulebook for life, so how else am I to share with you why I believe as I do.
I believe the Way's doctrines to be Satan-inspired and have rejected all of them. Just as Satan uses a little truth to entice, the way sounds all Christian and everything, but the bottom line is they have rejected sound instruction and went off on many tangents: Jesus, the holy spirit, the afterlife and tongues.
Then Def, the bible is a blatant lie because it promised the ABSOLUTE defeat of Satan. According to what you believe, if it holds true, than Satan is anything but defeated! Why he has won most of the souls and will get to torutre them for eternity.
You no doubt buy into this freedom of will thing, which would no doubt show man's sovereignty over God's. You sound like a die hard Calvinist to think everyone will live forever, only many will be endlessly torutured. Does this make you happy? Would you enjoy seeing your enemies tortured forever in hell? NO you say???? You sure approve of the God who would sentence such a person to a horribly imagined (AND I DO MEAN IMAGINED) fate. Why? Because in your own heart, you truly hate your enemies, so much so that you would love to see them tortured forever.
Also there you go with that CHANCE bulls**t again. For the last time it's GRACE!!!!!
I see you as someone who no doubt hates sound doctrine, and will do everything he can to justify his own hate filled arguments. What?? You accuse ME of hating sound doctrine??? DO NOT CALL BURN FOREVER IN HELL SOUND DOCTRINE!!!!!!! IT IS NOT SOUND DOCTRINE!!!!! IT'S ONLY THE DOCTRINE OF MADMEN AND EVIL HEARTS!!!!!!
Just because The Way was wrong doesn't mean that mainstream Christianity is right. It's in deed wrong. It's only that The Way is just as wrong.
In fact, I see you so ignorant, you don't even know why the fire in that lake is even burning with brimstone!
Tell me Def, are you anti-abortion??? Why, so that life can end up in hell like you would like it to be?? I can't think of any other reason you would want to spare an unborn child except to sacrifice it to Satan yourself. If there is an ever burning hell, then abortion is a SACRAMENT!!!!!
You blame a sinner for something that isn't even his fault. HOW DARE YOU!!!!!! Your own bible makes it crystal clear that we are born in sin. Don't give me this "free will" crap! Nobody sins by his own free will, and there is no bible verse you can use to argue otherwise, and if there is, then that shows how inconsistent the bible is and therefore cannot be a reliable source for truth of its own self.
As far as I'm concerned YOU have fallen from grace, since you want to be justified by your works, done by YOUR OWN FREE WILL. So you believe God will reject those who reject Him? Then consider yourself rejected of God, since you reject Him yourself. What??? You don't reject God??? Def, you might as well confess you are not a sinner, which would of course be a blatant lie! Why would you accept a Jesus you don't need if you are sinless???? I would say that Romans, Chapt. 1, would definitely apply to you!!!!! The base problem with you Def is no doubt PRIDE!!!! You are too proud to have someone like Hitler in paradise with you, even if God could transform Hitler into a saint. You are too proud to even forgive Hitler. If you don't forgive, then how dare you expect forgiveness yourself???? And if you won't preach mercy unto all, how dare you expect mercy??? As it is written, blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy! You sound to me like someone who lacks mercy. "But they haven't repented", you say. Hey, Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, and they were ANYTHING BUT REPENTANT!!!!
But I do understand Def, you cannot forgive if you have been forgiven very little. And you cannot be mericful if you haven't been given very much mercy. I think the problem is in the God you choose to serve. He sounds like a control freak, much worse than VPW or LCM. Believe me, I'm not surprised that you rebut me in my beliefs, becuase they are not popular ones, but then Jesus wasn't popular either. You definitely won't preach a God of mercy and forgiveness if you are the subject of one who is merciless and unforgiving.
Im not going to continue responding to you much longer, because I'm convinced all you want to do is debate me, which is one of the works of the flesh believe it or not. (The Greek word for "strife" in Galatians 5:20 is "eris", which can also be translated "debate"! There! I even quoted some scripture with a reference. Satisfied?) Therefore I can safely conclude that you are not going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven yourself according to Galatians Chapt. 5 (You show to have a problem with Galatians from a previous post in this thread).
While we are on the subject of Galatians Chapt. 5, notice also the Fruits of the Spirit mentioned, particularly gentleness and goodness. I have concurred with you that your salvation is sure, but you resent me when I also extend such gentleness and goodness to our enemies. Why did you rub my nose in it? Do you hate the Fruits of the Spirit that much?? Hey, I have had a lot of enemies, and nobody wants to be vindicated more than me! (If a Jew knew what I went through growing up, they would make me an honorary Jew! ) But there is no profit in subjecting one's enemies to endless torture, not to mention the fact that you might have to face such a punishment yourself if you wish such on others. As it is also written, "with what mete you measure it, it will be measured unto you!" In short, you are going to be judged according to the standards of your own judgements. Don't want to go to hell??? Then you better purge yourself of such beliefs!!!! Want mercy? Then purge yourself of a merciless heart (or ask God to purge it from you).
If you want to learn about universal salvation, fine, I'll be more than happy to share my faith with you. But if you are only looking for a debate and to find fault, you are just wasting my time, and your own.
quote: "CKnapp, I respectfully disagree. I believe, as the Word says, Satan was second in command with God until pride brought him down. I do believe his goal is to be worshipped as the most high. He and his minions are no longer free to roam around the planets - this is his base of operations. He is the prince of the earth and the air. This is his domain, he can do with it as he will. That is why Christ came to save us from his dominion and power. We may be on this earth, but we are no longer his.
Then tell me, did God have a foreknowledge that Lucifer was going to rebel and become Satan? Was this against God's will?? Then God must be some stupid idiot to create some angel he knows is going to rebel AGAINST HIS WILL. Is any man this stupid???? Either God is in control, or there is chaos beyond God's control. And if God cannot control chaos, then how in the hell can you expect Him to bring about peace??? HUH???
And incidently, the bible doesn't teach that Satan was second in command. How can you say otherwise? Jesus said something to the contrary, that Satan was A MURDERER FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!!!!! Was Jesus telling a lie? If Satan was a murderer from the very beginning, then he was NEVER on God's side. God created Satan evil, he was NEVER good. Neither does the bible teach that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same. That is a tradition of men, not a doctrine of God.
And Def, I'm not offended that you quote bible verses so much as I'm disturbed at your arrogance in doing so. If you showed a little more humility, it would make a whole lot of difference. :)--> What? You think I AM arrogant? How do you figure? I believe in the salvation of all. How do you consider that arrogance? No person who is arrogant would agree with me. It takes a whole chunk of humility to believe what I believe.
And CKnapp, I admire your faith in God's goodness, but the Bible does talk about eternal damnation and punishment and how not everyone will go to heaven. I see nothing in Scripture that supports this position.
Question Def, why do you compliment my faith if you adamantly disagree with it? If you truly thought my beliefs were wrong you would be deploring me for my ignorance. Just kind of curious.
Cknapp, you asked for what I believe, then when I tell you you resort to insults and curses.
You accuse me of believing in free will and of being a Calvinist. That's an oxymoron.
I don't presume to judge anyone or anything.
If you cared to look at my beliefs, you will note that I believe in a God who will save many millions. Why? Because He's God and I am not.
He can judge better than I can.
I believe He is sovereign, he is in control. Not satan, not me, not santa claus.
I don't want anyone to go to hell. I don't want to go to hell.
Why the insults? If your way is correct, why are you so angry over what I have to say? Am I not going to heaven based on your beliefs. You should be laughing at me, not cursing.
quote:Cknapp, you asked for what I believe, then when I tell you you resort to insults and curses.
Def, number one, YOU are the one that called me to this debate, I didn't call you to one. Therefore if you feel insulted or cursed, then that's your problem. Besides, I think you would find God insulting to find that He is not only what I say He is, but a whole lot more ;)--> I will be honest though, I would find YOUR God worse than insulting, I'd find him nothing but plain sewage!
quote:You accuse me of believing in free will and of being a Calvinist. That's an oxymoron.
I said "You sound like a die hard Calvinist to think everyone will live forever, only many will be endlessly torutured." I didn't accuse you of being a Calvinist, I was comparing your beliefs to one. I said YOU SOUND LIKE ONE, not YOU ARE ONE. Like a Calvinist, you believe everyone will live forever, only many will live in endless torture. You are right, a Calvinist who believes in free will is in fact an oxymoron.
quote:I don't presume to judge anyone or anything.
Who are you NOT to judge?
quote:If you cared to look at my beliefs, you will note that I believe in a God who will save many millions. Why? Because He's God and I am not. He can judge better than I can.
Isn't that cute??? You glorify God more than yourself. Problem is you don't give God ALL the glory! If you believe in a God who will save millions, why can't you believe in a God who will save ALL????
quote:I believe He is sovereign, he is in control. Not satan, not me, not santa claus.
But man, with his FREE WILL has the power to thrwart God's sovereignty, right? God wills Hitler to be saved, but Hitler is so much mightier than God that he can prevent his own salvation. Sounds to me like a God who is anything but sovereign. Or better yet, Satan is even mightier, since he can have the whole world turn their backs on God. Sounds to me like you give Satan a whole lot of glory. Oh yes, that explains it! The reason you don't give God ALL THE GLORY, is because you give Satan some, if not a great deal of it, too. What gives? Do you have divided loyalty?
quote:I don't want anyone to go to hell. I don't want to go to hell.
So you will the salvation of ALL men do you???? Do you pray for the salvation of ALL men??? And if so, why would God not answer your prayers??? It is written, "the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". I get it, it is also written "God doesn't hear the prayers of an unrighteous man". That would explain it clearly to me. Also why would you belittle those who are yet to have the Holy Spirit? Were you belittled in the days when YOU were void of the Holy Spirit? Let me ask you this, Def. If you will the salvation of ALL men, then why do you lack the balls to hold God to his will (which you believe is tantamount to a promise) when you share the same desires? What? Scared God is going find you in disfavor for rebuking Him? You want God's favor come hell or high water. What if it turns out God is really an @$$hole? Still want his favor?
quote:Why the insults? If your way is correct, why are you so angry over what I have to say? Am I not going to heaven based on your beliefs. You should be laughing at me, not cursing.
As far as laughing at you is concerned, you're beliefs about hell are so hideously atrocious its NO LAUGHING MATTER. Yes Def, you are going to heaven based on my beliefs, and so is everyone else. Why do you refuse to share that with people? Jesus said, "FREELY you have received, FREELY give!" You don't give freely! You only give if a person meets your criteria. Like Jesus questioned, "what reward do you have? don't sinners do the same?" You are only willing to tell a person he is saved if he says "yes" to your interpretation of the Gospel. You are not even willing to tell a person that someday he will be saved, if he isn't at the present time. That's why I'm disturbed at you. Because like the Pharisees, you shut the Kingdom of Heaven off from the people. I know, it's not easy to do that, and believe me brother, there are some people who .... me off so badly I could just beat them with a baseball bat. But I would think that such a threat would compel a person to repent, unless that same person were mentally retarded, but then a retarded person would hardly give me a reason to want to batter him. Yet it is written "the GOODNESS of God leads to repentenance". That's what separates me (and everyone else for that matter) from God. God can compel repentenance by good, where you and I would have to threaten evil to compel repentanance. In closing, all I have to say is my aim is to convey words on people that help. Not boast in how much bible knowledge I have amassed. Def, you probably know the bible backwards and fowards, and sideways, and upside down even, and perhaps I know very little by comparison. But that's just it, all you have is bible knowledge, and without the Spirit of God behind it, the bible is only a bunch of B.S. (on a side note, I made such a proclamation last summer, much to the offense of many, including one guy in particular. I concluded that the particular person was only making an idol out of his bible. I may have lost a friend, but then he was probably never a friend to begin with. Besides, I can do without THAT kind of friendship. Def, perhaps you too make an idol out of the bible.) One more thing, if I say something that is not in the bible, would it occur to any of you that The Holy Spirit may have given me the words to speak? God surely doesn't limit His words to that "big black book" :)-->
Why does Jesus keep referring to an eternal lake of fire where Satan, the antichrist, the beast, his angels and the ungodly will go to someday?
Are all the Bibles wrong?
It seems clear to me from Scripture that God is either behind directly or allows many disasters (our perspective) or judgments (his perspective) to occur in the world. Jesus never says Soddom and Gomorrah were going to get off at the end. Why not?
I give Satan no glory in my life. My salvation comes only through the blood and redemptive work of Christ. That's what the book says, that's what I believe.
There are plenty of places to go to find out why we are responsible for our sins, even though we are born into it by Adam's sin.
We reject/ignore/disbelieve God all the time. All of us. It's our nature, it opposes God.
But Christ comes to us and when we respond, opens our hearts and begins to change us.
Now I don't worry about eternity, because I know that God's work on the cross is that extensive.
And his sacrifice on the cross was a great act of love. Instead of wiping us all off the face of the planet, he chose to pay the price for us.
No more endless slaughter of animals to cover our sins. No, our God took care of it in one fell swoop.
So the price of sin has been paid once for all — I believe that means everybody. Calvinists would confess a limited atonement. I can't say that.
Some would argue that predestination means God picks who will be saved anyway. I don't know.
Others say free will can thwart God's plans. I don't buy that because God will not lose.
Jesus said his sheep know his voice and he will not lose any. But an answer seems obvious here.
I guess we disagree in that you believe God's grace extends to sinners who NEVER put their trust in Jesus while they are alive, but get to at some other time.
I say we are to share God's truth with everyone because God commands us to. We may not know who will believe, but we are called to tell them.
And sometimes that means leading them away from a sinful life. God tells us in Paul's letters that people who participate in certain practices will not be allowed in the Kingdom.
In your theology, what does that verse mean?
In the Levitical law, certain sins required death. God said this. What say you?
And why would anyone want to believe in God now and walk away from their sin, if they were going to end up there anyway?
Chuck, I think it is most excellent that you are taking an interest in this biblical subject of God reconciling all men to himself. And actually, free will as a part of man believing unto salvation is most definitely over rated. Just look at the apostle Paul's conversion. He gets thrown off of a horse and then blinded by God until he comes to the realization that something is definitely not right in his life. Then he gets a personal visit from Jesus himself who shows him that he is the Lord and the way to salvation for all mankind. Paul is a living example of someone that had to be touched and enlightened by the Master's hand first before he had any chance to believe unto salvation. We are really just fortunate and called of God to have received this message at all. Many people in remote parts of the world may never hear this message or simply have not heard enough to believe unto salvation. Just look at the vast amounts of people living in cultures controlled by Islamic or Hindu beliefs. Does that mean that God raises them from the dead to be judged and then throws them on the scrap heap to be tortured for ever? While the few of us fortunate enough to have personally been touched by the Master in our earthly existence only receive eternal life? I don't think so. Jesus can show himself in his eternal resurrected state to whomever he wills. The bible says that every knee shall bow to the Lord Jesus. God through his Son has both the power and the will to reconcile all men to himself. If not in this lifetime then at the second general resurrection. People really misunderstand the fire of God spoken of in the final part of the book of Revelation. This is not a fire of eternal torment. This is a fire of judgement and purification for all mankind so that he can take part in the Lord's glorious new heaven and earth. Without this purification by the Lord Jesus none of us would receive eternal life.
The best book I have found on the subject is “The Inescapable Love of God” by Thomas Talbott. Dr. Thomas’ web site is http://home.att.net/%7Et.b.talbott/.
Other really good books on Christian universalism and related subjects are:
“Universal Salvation? The Current Debate” Edited by Robin A. Parry & Christopher H. Partridge
“The One Purpose of God: An Answer to the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment” by Jan Bonda
“Destined for Salvation: God’s Promise to Save Everyone” by Kalen Fristad
“What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell: Wrestling with the Traditional View” by Randy Klassen
“If Grace Is True: Why God Will Save Every Person” by Phillip Gulley and James Mulholland
There are plenty of really good websites concerning Christian universalism. They include:
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
And what about this verse?
* Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
God warns us of the danger of a life separate from him. Are you able to say Jesus was wrong?
I went to www.biblicaluniversalism.com and found out for myself what it said. It has some typical confusing verbiage, but even that site admits that some people — who WILLFULLY reject God, will be LOST.
And brothers, that what I have been saying.
The Bible teaches that while God wants everyone to be saved and that Jesus died once for all and the gift of salvation is available to all, not everyone is going to receive it.
Hence the terms ungodly, wicked and their final destination.
If that doesn't spark a flame to do your best to preach the good news than I don't know what will.
There are two words for study consideration on this subject. They are Strong's numbers 165 and 166. 165 is the number for the Greek word 'aion'. 166 is the number for the related Greek word 'aionios'. Aion is clearly refering to age and is a definite period of time. The related Greek word aionios is a little less clear, but is definitely related to the word found in the Greek bible for aion which should be translated 'age'. Below is a study for your consideration. This is not the entire study available, but I will provide the Internet link to this study at the bottom of this post which has more information.
Does "FOREVER" Really Mean FOREVER?
A Study of the Word "Eon"
Most Christians would be astonished and perplexed to find out that the Bible NEVER ONCE talks about "eternal" life, or ANYTHING happening "forever" or "forever and ever." In fact, the words eternal, everlasting, and forever NEVER appear in the New Testament. They are mistranslations of the Greek word "eon."
"Well, then the word "eon" must mean eternal, everlasting and forever," you say. No it doesn't. Because eternity does not have an end. An eon DOES have an end. The word "eon" pertains to a specific period of time, with both a beginning and an end.
The Bible makes this very clear because it speaks of a "present" eon, a "coming" eon, and a "conclusion" of the eons. Obviously "eternity" as we understand it, has NO "conclusion."
Now, before anyone gets too upset, there IS information in the Bible that speaks of what we understand as "eternal" life, but that word is not used. What the Bible says is that those living at the end of the eons will never die, because death will be abolished. ("The last enemy that will be abolished is -- death!" See 1 Cor 15:22-28.)
But it's extremely important to know why the Bible DOESN'T use the word eternity and instead uses the word eon, meaning a specific period of time.
The process of God revealing Himself (His character) to His creatures IS the PURPOSE of the eons (see Eph 1:11 in the original Greek). If infinity were needed for God to make Himself known, then we would never obtain such knowledge. God never speaks to us in terms of infinity, for we cannot understand it. He has provided a DEFINITE period of time for His self-revelation, called --- the eonian times.
The mistranslation of the word "eon" as everlasting, eternal, forever, and even "world", in the King James Version and nearly ALL translations of the Bible, leads to confusion and even sometimes to false doctrine. Some of the Bible translations have corrected some of the confusion by correctly translating the word "eon" as "age" which is much more accurate. But they don't do it in every instance.
The following information shows the many different ways the word "eon" is translated, as well as allowing the Bible to interpret its own words. The Bible reveals that the word "eon" clearly means a period of time, because the eons have a "conclusion!" Eternity has NO conclusion! So the word "Eon" CANNOT mean eternity!
EONIAN, aionion
Variously translated: Aeonian, age-abiding, long ages, of the ages, past ages, periods of past ages, remote-age times, commencement, eternal, eternally, eternity, everlasting,
Here is more to consider from the same web site as previously quoted from. The link again is at the bottom.
Is There Really an Unpardonable Sin?
So, how does this make a difference? Well, one very important result of properly translating the word "eon" pertains to the study of what is often referred to as "The Unpardonable Sin" where the King James Version states "And whoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall NOT be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." Matt 12:32.
However, the word is NOT "world" but "eon." Thus, the text really reads, in the original Greek, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eon, nor in the eon to come." That means that "the sin against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven him" in the eon that these words were written in (the present eon we are living in), nor in the eon to come - which is the millennial eon. The Bible teaches that the wicked will be dead during the millennial eon, so naturally "his sin" will not be forgiven him while he is dead. But the Bible states that there is ANOTHER eon after that, the Fifth and Final Eon of time, when the wicked are resurrected and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place! The Bible does NOT say that "his sin" will not be forgiven him in that LAST eon! This is clearly a matter for much further study.
Five Eons
When we study the different specific eons, we find there are a total of FIVE eons, in the Total Eonion Times of this earth's history. We will not discuss the first eon at this time, as that is a total study in itself. It is mentioned in Heb 1:2 We can find from scripture that the second eon began at Creation as described in the first chapter of Genesis and extended until the flood, a period of at least 1600 years (Genesis 1-9). The third eon (Gal 1:4; 1 Thess 4:13, 5:11; Matt 24:29,30) began with the flood and will end at the Second Coming of Jesus, a period of around 4000 years. This is the eon that we are living in right now. This eon and the previous eon are termed the "evil" eons in the Bible. (For more information, see the reference at the end of this study.)
When Jesus comes again, that will begin the fourth eon, the one thousand year millennial eon, the only eon for which the Bible gives us an exact time -- one thousand years (Rev 20:1-10; Luke 18:20). But the Bible tells that there will be ANOTHER eon, the fifth eon, AFTER the millennial eon (Rev 21-22; Eph 3:21; Rev 11,14,15; Rev 20:11-15). That's when the Second Resurrection (the Resurrection of the Wicked) and the Great White Throne Judgment will take place. But please note, that will take an ENTIRE eon!
How Long is an Eon?
The word "eon" just designates that it is a period of time, with a definite beginning and a definite end. It is NOT eternity, as eternity has NO end! Each eon appears to be a different length of time. But one thing is certain, every eon is a VERY LONG period of time. The shortest eon that the Bible speaks of is the millennium eon (the fourth eon) and that is 1000 years long. The second eon, from creation to the flood, was at least 1600 years long and the present eon, from the flood until the Second Coming of Christ, is at least 4000 years long.
So, we have reason to believe that the last eon (the fifth and final eon) will be AT LEAST 1000 years long and possibly longer! Christians have the impression that the wicked will be resurrected, judged and "thrown in the lake of fire" in a very short period of time, --- maybe minutes, hours, days, weeks or months. Really, no one gives it much thought. Everyone is just under the impression that it will all happen quite rapidly.
But if billions of people are going to be "eternally lost" as most Christians believe, and God's going to resurrect billions of wicked people just to "judge" them, then kill them again, supposedly to prove to them that He was right all along (Have you ever stopped to ponder what kind of a God would do that?), then wouldn't God allow each person to have at least a few minutes individually in front of the Great White Throne, before God "eternally" destroys them? Is that too much to ask? After all, we're told that each person is so precious to Jesus that He would have died on the cross for "just one person," and that we're much more important than the sparrows that He assures us He watches over.
Or are billions of people going to be resurrected and judged as a gigantic, impersonal mass of humanity, then communally consigned to the fire to die all over again, but this time in an excruciatingly painful way?
In addition, the wicked will HAVE to be resurrected in better bodies (but not "glorified" bodies as the righteous have) than they had when they went down into the grave, as some were brain-dead in a coma on life-support when they died, some died with Alzheimer's, and some were burned to death in accidental house fires. They're at least going to have to be restored to such a degree that they can understand what the "judging" is all about.
What would it prove to have a comatose patient, or a person with Alzheimer's placed before God at the Great White Throne Judgment? That would be stupid. God wouldn't do that. The "judgment" would be nonsensical and meaningless if the person being "judged" couldn't understand what was going on.
Reasonable Assumptions:
1. The last eon, the eon of the Great White Throne Judgment, will be at least as long as the shortest known eon, at least 1000 years, possibly longer. For a Christian that does not believe in "eternal" burning, what in the world is going to take place that would take such a long time? By the way, the concept of the wicked "burning forever and ever" has no Biblical basis when one reads the original Greek. The longest period of time the wicked could possibly "burn" would be for the "eon", a specific period of time with a definite ending. (The question of whether the wicked will literally burn, and for how long is the subject of yet another study. See the study on "When is Fire Not Fire?")
2. There must be some means of feeding, sheltering and governing these billions of people while the Judgment is taking place and while the wicked are preparing for battle against the Saints. Will there be a whole "civilization" set up?
3. The wicked will be resurrected in better bodies than the ones in which they went down to the grave (though not "glorified" bodies as the righteous will have).
Clarification of the Scriptures by the proper translation of the word "eon."
Here are some examples of the Biblical contradictions produced by the mistranslation of the word "eon."
1. The word "everlasting" is applied to things in some Bible passages that the Bible states, in other passages, is clearly NOT "everlasting".
"the everlasting hills" Gen 49:26 and Deut 33:15 (R.V.)
Yet the Bible states that the hills are NOT "everlasting."
Isa 54:10 "For the mountains shall depart and the hills be removed"
Amos 9:13 "and all the hills shall melt"
2 Peter 3:10 "and the earth shall be burned up"
2. Contradictory expressions as "the end of the world" and "world without end."
Matt 24:3 "the end of the world" (KJV) The accurate translation is: "conclusion of the eon."
Eph 3:21 "world without end" (KJV) The accurate translation is: "unto all the generations of the eon of the eons."
The inaccuracy and inconsistency of the translation of the words "olam" in the Old Testament and of "aion" and "aionios" in the New Testament has led to a tragic perversion of what the Scriptures actually teach in regard to the destiny of God's creatures.
Let's remember that we are told that God "is the Savior of ALL men" (1 Tim 4:10); that He will justify ALL (Rom 5:18); that He will reconcile ALL unto Himself (Col 1:20);that He will give life to ALL (1 Cor. 15:22); and that finally when all enemies have been subjected, and death is abolished, that God will be "ALL IN ALL" (1 Cor 15:28).
If these statements are true, then it cannot be true that millions of His children are to be held in never-ending torment or that they will be permanently annihilated (by whatever method you may believe), nor that even one should receive such treatment. "Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD." He doesn't "offer" to take it away --- He TAKES it away. And the "sin" is not taken away from just "some people" in the world -- No, it is taken away from the WHOLE world!
This does not deny that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" (Rom 1:18). There is no doubt whatever as to the fact that the Bible clearly teaches wrath -- not only in this age (eon) but in the age (eon) which is to come. "God will NOT be mocked." Whatever we sow, we will reap. But God's wrath is defined in Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28. God's "wrath" is just giving us up to our own evil desires and allowing us to reap what we have sown.
Let us ALL remember that God says, "I'm NOT like you." "My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
The word "Judgment" means to "set right" or to "turn around" or "turn back." God chastens us to turn us around, so we'll head in the right direction. That's the way we discipline our own children. Psalm 94:15 says, "But judgment shall RETURN unto righteousness."
Psalm 90:3, speaking of God, says, "Thou turnest man to destruction: and sayest, Return, ye children of men."
If destruction means annihilation, then how could anyone return to God after they have been permanently annihilated?
In 1 Cor 5:5, Paul tells us to "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Notice that "destruction" is NOT annihilation, but the prelude to SALVATION! (Please see the study on "The Destruction of the Wicked.")
In Conclusion:
1) An Eon is a period of time, NOT eternity.
2) There will be a total of Five Eons in the history of this world.
3) We are living in the third eon of earth's history
4) The millennial eon (the fourth eon) will begin at the Second Coming of Jesus
5) After the millennial eon, there will be a fifth and final eon during which time the wicked will be resurrected, the Great White Throne Judgment will take place, and the wicked will reap what they have sown. But that will NOT include permanent annihilation. Their "Judgment" will have a PURPOSE -- to turn them back to righteousness! Psalm 94:15, "But Judgment shall RETURN unto righteousness!"
6) When death is abolished and God is "ALL in ALL" (1 Cor 15:28) --- THEN eternity will begin.
quote:But you still haven't answered my basic question.
Why does Jesus keep referring to an eternal lake of fire where Satan, the antichrist, the beast, his angels and the ungodly will go to someday?
Are all the Bibles wrong?
How do you know Jesus was referring to an eternal fire? Again, you are going by your translation of your bible.
Jesus did make references to "gehenna", which has been mistranslated "hellfire", but that is located SW of Jerusalem, not in the subterranean underworld. "Gehenna" should be translated "The Valley of Hinnom", which has a real geographical location. (I even have photos of the place if you want to see them). And I can assure you, the "fires of hell" fizzled out 15 centuries ago.
I have also told you that "eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek word "aion", which should be translated "age". An "age" has limitations. When it talks for instance in Revelation about "being tormeneted FOREVER AND EVER", that is a mistranslation. "forever and ever" should read "from one age to the next". In short, when the next age comes, the torment should end. PERIOD!
There are even bibles that DON'T teach eternal torment at all. You ask me if all the bibles are wrong. Do you think THOSE bibles are wrong?
I went to http://www.biblicaluniversalism.com and found out for myself what it said. It has some typical confusing verbiage, but even that site admits that some people — who WILLFULLY reject God, will be LOST.
Def, Neal Punt IS NOT A UNIVERSALIST!!!! He is in fact a CALVINIST!!!!! He said so!!!! You obviously only read a small portion of it and drew a quick conclusion without reading everything.
In fact, you are not really following along this thread, you are only concentrating on the things I AM saying and not anything else. If you had even been following this thread, you would have read my opinion about Neal Punt and his "biblical universalism" website several posts back.
I said it once, and I'm saying it again, you are only here to debate, you really don't want to learn
If you want to know about TRUE universalism, click THIS link
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Sunesis
Hi Cknapp, no, I believe they will have no judgment.
Isa 26:14: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore has thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."
"Deceased" is the word Rapha, which some scholars believe is a reference to Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them.
Also, the verse in Dan. 2:43: "And wherease thou sawest iron (nephilim) mixed with miry clay (man-adam), they (Nephilim) shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."
You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history).
I think the mingling of the seed of God's created angels, with the seed of human kind - God's wonderful new creation - is an abomination to God. Nephilim truly are seed of the devil. They cannot be rehabilitated. Just as a Bundy or Dahmer can not be rehabilitated. They love beauty, and they love the evil they do.
I think Nephilim are what is meant when in Genesis, we are told of the conflict between God's seed and Satan's seed - I will put enmity between your seed and thy seed.... It continues to this day.
I believe the only "people" thrown into the lake of fire, if one insists people will be thrown there, are nephilim - those of iron - not human. God's crown of creation, humanity, will all be saved, maybe not all at the same time period, but eventually, in different time periods, in different ways.
When all is said and done, at the end, earth, and its story of God, the devil, good and evil, mankind, nephilim, Christ, Triumph - all of this will be the epic of the universe, like the tale of the ring.
Once I understood Nephilim, everything made sense and fell into place.
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def59
Sunesis you said:
I believe the only "people" thrown into the lake of fire, if one insists people will be thrown there, are nephilim - those of iron - not human. God's crown of creation, humanity, will all be saved, maybe not all at the same time period, but eventually, in different time periods, in different ways.
Here's what Jesus and the NT writers had to say: All verses NIV.
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 16:24
So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Hebrews 10:27
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Hebrews 12:29
for our “God is a consuming fire.” [ Deut. 4:24]
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 8:5 and 7
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
Revelation 9:18
A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
Revelation 16:8
The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire.
Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
I think we are talking about more than just "nephilim" here.
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CKnapp3
I've already quoted you some. If you are looking for references, I don't remember the references offhand, and I don't have the time to get them. I suggest you make use of a good conconrdance if you need to find the references for yourself. Besides, quoting references sounds to me like being a show-off. Jesus never quoted them, so why should I.
But while we are on the subject of bible knowledge, you can know every single word in the bible and yet have NO LOVE! It is also written: "Knowledge makes you proud, but love builds" I would rather be in the company of someone who lacked bible knowledge and had lots of love than someone who has a bunch of bible knowledge and have lots of hate. Furhtermore, the loving person who lacks bible knowledge isn't going to have any means of deceiving me.
BTW, the word "eternal" in eternal punishemnt is the Greek word "aion" and should mean "for an age", not "all endless time" The purpose of punishment is for correction, not for revenge.
And as far as God sending a flood is concerned, God can destroy, and he can rebuild from the ruins too. Do you believe this Def? Never mind what the bible might say. I'm not asking you what the bible says, I'm asking you what YOU believe. But if you must go by the bible, I've said this time and time again that it is written: NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD.
OK, maybe I'm saying everyone is going to heaven as a vernacular, since everyone equates heaven with eternal life. It isn't so much everyone is going to heaven as much as it is NOBODY is going to hell forever. I do believe everyone will live in paradise. There is a difference between paradise and heaven of course. Besides, what exactly is hell anyway? The bible also says that hell will be destroyed! So much for your "eternal" hell. Also it is written "There will be NO MORE PAIN". THERE!!!! That statement is an absolute one, not a relative one. TWI had that one right,(though it's not unique to them) though their reasoning may be a little faulty.
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CKnapp3
Def59 said:
Hebrews 12:29
for our “God is a consuming fire.” [ Deut. 4:24]
And Def, if you plan on spending eternity with God, I'd take heed to that if I were you
;)-->
I believe we all will be cast into the lake of fire, and many will acutally come out smelling like a rose
:)-->
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CKnapp3
Sunesis, you said: "You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history)."
I don't believe Satan has any plans of his own, God gave Satan what power he has. It is written,(this is God speaking) "I will have compassion on whom I will, and will harden whom I will". God for instance hardened the Pharoah's heart that "He may show his power to Israel". Does God need Satan? Yes and No. God doesn't need Satan to exercise his power. However we wouldn't know God's goodness with out the contrast of evil, which Satan is commissioned to exercise. It is written that God creates both good AND EVIL. Satan is NOT the creator of evil, GOD IS. And one day, when its work is finished, God will destroy evil and Satan both. But I don't think Satan will vanish into some sort of phantom existence. It's likely he will be recreated for some other purpose that God has in his own plans. Just like when you dismantle an old worn out automobile. That particular automobile has been in fact DESTROYED. The steel used in that auto is recycled and made into something else, perhaps a another new automobile. Better still, what about beating (DESTROYING) our swords (instruments of death) into plowshares (instruments of life), as it is so written?
I believe Hitler was part of God's plan, perhaps to punish Israel one more time because they strayed away, something they are famous for doing. What happened 3 years after the fall of Hitler? Israel was returned to the Jews after they were in exile for almost 19 centuries.
:)--> And Christianity better take heed and also heed the warning of Jesus, who said "except you repent, you will likewise perish"! I see another rise of a Hitler type dictator, and this time he will be after Christians. Well, look what's happening to Christians in this country. They cry that their rights are constantly being violated by the ACLU for instance. Communism has also been proven to be a threat to the church. And though it has fallen, it could easily rise again (what is the prophecy about the beast with the deadly wound that was healed?). Incidently, Communism IS NOT A THREAT to the saints 
:)--> It never was, and never will be. But to the filthy whoremongering churches, it can pose a BIG threat.
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Sunesis
Interesting question Def, about those who are not found in the book of life being thrown into the lake of fire. I would imagine, if someone is not in the book of life, he is in the book of the dead. Who are those already dead? If they are not written in the book of life, it is because they are already dead. I believe we are not talking about "clay" here. Good question, I will think more on it.
CKnapp, I respectfully disagree. I believe, as the Word says, Satan was second in command with God until pride brought him down. I do believe his goal is to be worshipped as the most high. He and his minions are no longer free to roam around the planets - this is his base of operations. He is the prince of the earth and the air. This is his domain, he can do with it as he will. That is why Christ came to save us from his dominion and power. We may be on this earth, but we are no longer his.
I think Hitlers, and others throughout history who enjoy slaughter and destruction are Satan's trial runs for the final showdown.
Sometimes, there are people who are far beyond simply devil possessed. It is as if they are from another planet, an alien being. One of Hitler's goals was creating a new race of Gods. It wasn't just about supermen. A little bit of Satanic inspiration there?
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def59
CKnapp
Here's what I believe.
I believe we all will live eternally.
I also believe that those who reject Christ, after having had a chance to hear about him and consider him, will be sent to the lake of fire.
I believe that God is just enough and loving enough to "save" as many people as possible.
I believe Jesus when he talks about a place of eternal torment and gnashing of teeth. There are no second chances.
I believe that God will reject those who rejected him. He says his creation is proof of his existence, so rejecting him is a choice.
I believe in deathbed confessions — the thief on the cross is my example.
I believe God does not tolerate sin and does not force his will on anyone. He calls us his children, what kind of good father is going to turn his children into robots.
I also believe in the Bible as the Holy word of God. So if my use of Bible verses offends you, too bad. It is my rulebook for life, so how else am I to share with you why I believe as I do.
I believe the Way's doctrines to be Satan-inspired and have rejected all of them. Just as Satan uses a little truth to entice, the way sounds all Christian and everything, but the bottom line is they have rejected sound instruction and went off on many tangents: Jesus, the holy spirit, the afterlife and tongues.
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CKnapp3
Then Def, the bible is a blatant lie because it promised the ABSOLUTE defeat of Satan. According to what you believe, if it holds true, than Satan is anything but defeated! Why he has won most of the souls and will get to torutre them for eternity.
You no doubt buy into this freedom of will thing, which would no doubt show man's sovereignty over God's. You sound like a die hard Calvinist to think everyone will live forever, only many will be endlessly torutured. Does this make you happy? Would you enjoy seeing your enemies tortured forever in hell? NO you say???? You sure approve of the God who would sentence such a person to a horribly imagined (AND I DO MEAN IMAGINED) fate. Why? Because in your own heart, you truly hate your enemies, so much so that you would love to see them tortured forever.
Also there you go with that CHANCE bulls**t again. For the last time it's GRACE!!!!!
I see you as someone who no doubt hates sound doctrine, and will do everything he can to justify his own hate filled arguments. What?? You accuse ME of hating sound doctrine??? DO NOT CALL BURN FOREVER IN HELL SOUND DOCTRINE!!!!!!! IT IS NOT SOUND DOCTRINE!!!!! IT'S ONLY THE DOCTRINE OF MADMEN AND EVIL HEARTS!!!!!!
Just because The Way was wrong doesn't mean that mainstream Christianity is right. It's in deed wrong. It's only that The Way is just as wrong.
In fact, I see you so ignorant, you don't even know why the fire in that lake is even burning with brimstone!
Tell me Def, are you anti-abortion??? Why, so that life can end up in hell like you would like it to be?? I can't think of any other reason you would want to spare an unborn child except to sacrifice it to Satan yourself. If there is an ever burning hell, then abortion is a SACRAMENT!!!!!
You blame a sinner for something that isn't even his fault. HOW DARE YOU!!!!!! Your own bible makes it crystal clear that we are born in sin. Don't give me this "free will" crap! Nobody sins by his own free will, and there is no bible verse you can use to argue otherwise, and if there is, then that shows how inconsistent the bible is and therefore cannot be a reliable source for truth of its own self.
As far as I'm concerned YOU have fallen from grace, since you want to be justified by your works, done by YOUR OWN FREE WILL. So you believe God will reject those who reject Him? Then consider yourself rejected of God, since you reject Him yourself. What??? You don't reject God??? Def, you might as well confess you are not a sinner, which would of course be a blatant lie! Why would you accept a Jesus you don't need if you are sinless???? I would say that Romans, Chapt. 1, would definitely apply to you!!!!! The base problem with you Def is no doubt PRIDE!!!! You are too proud to have someone like Hitler in paradise with you, even if God could transform Hitler into a saint. You are too proud to even forgive Hitler. If you don't forgive, then how dare you expect forgiveness yourself???? And if you won't preach mercy unto all, how dare you expect mercy??? As it is written, blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy! You sound to me like someone who lacks mercy. "But they haven't repented", you say. Hey, Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, and they were ANYTHING BUT REPENTANT!!!!
But I do understand Def, you cannot forgive if you have been forgiven very little. And you cannot be mericful if you haven't been given very much mercy. I think the problem is in the God you choose to serve. He sounds like a control freak, much worse than VPW or LCM. Believe me, I'm not surprised that you rebut me in my beliefs, becuase they are not popular ones, but then Jesus wasn't popular either. You definitely won't preach a God of mercy and forgiveness if you are the subject of one who is merciless and unforgiving.
Im not going to continue responding to you much longer, because I'm convinced all you want to do is debate me, which is one of the works of the flesh believe it or not. (The Greek word for "strife" in Galatians 5:20 is "eris", which can also be translated "debate"! There! I even quoted some scripture with a reference. Satisfied?) Therefore I can safely conclude that you are not going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven yourself according to Galatians Chapt. 5 (You show to have a problem with Galatians from a previous post in this thread).
While we are on the subject of Galatians Chapt. 5, notice also the Fruits of the Spirit mentioned, particularly gentleness and goodness. I have concurred with you that your salvation is sure, but you resent me when I also extend such gentleness and goodness to our enemies. Why did you rub my nose in it? Do you hate the Fruits of the Spirit that much?? Hey, I have had a lot of enemies, and nobody wants to be vindicated more than me! (If a Jew knew what I went through growing up, they would make me an honorary Jew!
) But there is no profit in subjecting one's enemies to endless torture, not to mention the fact that you might have to face such a punishment yourself if you wish such on others. As it is also written, "with what mete you measure it, it will be measured unto you!" In short, you are going to be judged according to the standards of your own judgements. Don't want to go to hell??? Then you better purge yourself of such beliefs!!!! Want mercy? Then purge yourself of a merciless heart (or ask God to purge it from you).
If you want to learn about universal salvation, fine, I'll be more than happy to share my faith with you. But if you are only looking for a debate and to find fault, you are just wasting my time, and your own.
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CKnapp3
Sunesis said:
Then tell me, did God have a foreknowledge that Lucifer was going to rebel and become Satan? Was this against God's will?? Then God must be some stupid idiot to create some angel he knows is going to rebel AGAINST HIS WILL. Is any man this stupid???? Either God is in control, or there is chaos beyond God's control. And if God cannot control chaos, then how in the hell can you expect Him to bring about peace??? HUH???
And incidently, the bible doesn't teach that Satan was second in command. How can you say otherwise? Jesus said something to the contrary, that Satan was A MURDERER FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!!!!! Was Jesus telling a lie? If Satan was a murderer from the very beginning, then he was NEVER on God's side. God created Satan evil, he was NEVER good. Neither does the bible teach that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same. That is a tradition of men, not a doctrine of God.
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CKnapp3
And Def, I'm not offended that you quote bible verses so much as I'm disturbed at your arrogance in doing so. If you showed a little more humility, it would make a whole lot of difference.
:)--> What? You think I AM arrogant? How do you figure? I believe in the salvation of all. How do you consider that arrogance? No person who is arrogant would agree with me. It takes a whole chunk of humility to believe what I believe.
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CKnapp3
Question Def, why do you compliment my faith if you adamantly disagree with it? If you truly thought my beliefs were wrong you would be deploring me for my ignorance. Just kind of curious.
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def59
Cknapp, you asked for what I believe, then when I tell you you resort to insults and curses.
You accuse me of believing in free will and of being a Calvinist. That's an oxymoron.
I don't presume to judge anyone or anything.
If you cared to look at my beliefs, you will note that I believe in a God who will save many millions. Why? Because He's God and I am not.
He can judge better than I can.
I believe He is sovereign, he is in control. Not satan, not me, not santa claus.
I don't want anyone to go to hell. I don't want to go to hell.
Why the insults? If your way is correct, why are you so angry over what I have to say? Am I not going to heaven based on your beliefs. You should be laughing at me, not cursing.
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CKnapp3
Def, number one, YOU are the one that called me to this debate, I didn't call you to one. Therefore if you feel insulted or cursed, then that's your problem. Besides, I think you would find God insulting to find that He is not only what I say He is, but a whole lot more
;)--> I will be honest though, I would find YOUR God worse than insulting, I'd find him nothing but plain sewage!
I said "You sound like a die hard Calvinist to think everyone will live forever, only many will be endlessly torutured." I didn't accuse you of being a Calvinist, I was comparing your beliefs to one. I said YOU SOUND LIKE ONE, not YOU ARE ONE. Like a Calvinist, you believe everyone will live forever, only many will live in endless torture. You are right, a Calvinist who believes in free will is in fact an oxymoron.
Who are you NOT to judge?
Isn't that cute??? You glorify God more than yourself. Problem is you don't give God ALL the glory! If you believe in a God who will save millions, why can't you believe in a God who will save ALL????
But man, with his FREE WILL has the power to thrwart God's sovereignty, right? God wills Hitler to be saved, but Hitler is so much mightier than God that he can prevent his own salvation. Sounds to me like a God who is anything but sovereign. Or better yet, Satan is even mightier, since he can have the whole world turn their backs on God. Sounds to me like you give Satan a whole lot of glory. Oh yes, that explains it! The reason you don't give God ALL THE GLORY, is because you give Satan some, if not a great deal of it, too. What gives? Do you have divided loyalty?
So you will the salvation of ALL men do you???? Do you pray for the salvation of ALL men??? And if so, why would God not answer your prayers??? It is written, "the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". I get it, it is also written "God doesn't hear the prayers of an unrighteous man". That would explain it clearly to me. Also why would you belittle those who are yet to have the Holy Spirit? Were you belittled in the days when YOU were void of the Holy Spirit? Let me ask you this, Def. If you will the salvation of ALL men, then why do you lack the balls to hold God to his will (which you believe is tantamount to a promise) when you share the same desires? What? Scared God is going find you in disfavor for rebuking Him? You want God's favor come hell or high water. What if it turns out God is really an @$$hole? Still want his favor?
As far as laughing at you is concerned, you're beliefs about hell are so hideously atrocious its NO LAUGHING MATTER. Yes Def, you are going to heaven based on my beliefs, and so is everyone else. Why do you refuse to share that with people? Jesus said, "FREELY you have received, FREELY give!" You don't give freely! You only give if a person meets your criteria. Like Jesus questioned, "what reward do you have? don't sinners do the same?" You are only willing to tell a person he is saved if he says "yes" to your interpretation of the Gospel. You are not even willing to tell a person that someday he will be saved, if he isn't at the present time. That's why I'm disturbed at you. Because like the Pharisees, you shut the Kingdom of Heaven off from the people. I know, it's not easy to do that, and believe me brother, there are some people who .... me off so badly I could just beat them with a baseball bat. But I would think that such a threat would compel a person to repent, unless that same person were mentally retarded, but then a retarded person would hardly give me a reason to want to batter him. Yet it is written "the GOODNESS of God leads to repentenance". That's what separates me (and everyone else for that matter) from God. God can compel repentenance by good, where you and I would have to threaten evil to compel repentanance. In closing, all I have to say is my aim is to convey words on people that help. Not boast in how much bible knowledge I have amassed. Def, you probably know the bible backwards and fowards, and sideways, and upside down even, and perhaps I know very little by comparison. But that's just it, all you have is bible knowledge, and without the Spirit of God behind it, the bible is only a bunch of B.S. (on a side note, I made such a proclamation last summer, much to the offense of many, including one guy in particular. I concluded that the particular person was only making an idol out of his bible. I may have lost a friend, but then he was probably never a friend to begin with. Besides, I can do without THAT kind of friendship. Def, perhaps you too make an idol out of the bible.) One more thing, if I say something that is not in the bible, would it occur to any of you that The Holy Spirit may have given me the words to speak? God surely doesn't limit His words to that "big black book"
:)-->
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def59
But you still haven't answered my basic question.
Why does Jesus keep referring to an eternal lake of fire where Satan, the antichrist, the beast, his angels and the ungodly will go to someday?
Are all the Bibles wrong?
It seems clear to me from Scripture that God is either behind directly or allows many disasters (our perspective) or judgments (his perspective) to occur in the world. Jesus never says Soddom and Gomorrah were going to get off at the end. Why not?
I give Satan no glory in my life. My salvation comes only through the blood and redemptive work of Christ. That's what the book says, that's what I believe.
There are plenty of places to go to find out why we are responsible for our sins, even though we are born into it by Adam's sin.
We reject/ignore/disbelieve God all the time. All of us. It's our nature, it opposes God.
But Christ comes to us and when we respond, opens our hearts and begins to change us.
Now I don't worry about eternity, because I know that God's work on the cross is that extensive.
And his sacrifice on the cross was a great act of love. Instead of wiping us all off the face of the planet, he chose to pay the price for us.
No more endless slaughter of animals to cover our sins. No, our God took care of it in one fell swoop.
So the price of sin has been paid once for all — I believe that means everybody. Calvinists would confess a limited atonement. I can't say that.
Some would argue that predestination means God picks who will be saved anyway. I don't know.
Others say free will can thwart God's plans. I don't buy that because God will not lose.
Jesus said his sheep know his voice and he will not lose any. But an answer seems obvious here.
I guess we disagree in that you believe God's grace extends to sinners who NEVER put their trust in Jesus while they are alive, but get to at some other time.
I say we are to share God's truth with everyone because God commands us to. We may not know who will believe, but we are called to tell them.
And sometimes that means leading them away from a sinful life. God tells us in Paul's letters that people who participate in certain practices will not be allowed in the Kingdom.
In your theology, what does that verse mean?
In the Levitical law, certain sins required death. God said this. What say you?
And why would anyone want to believe in God now and walk away from their sin, if they were going to end up there anyway?
That's the question I want you to answer.
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def59
And CK
Revelation that contradicts His Word is not trustworthy. Satan can appear as an angel of Light, so maybe you should check the book.
It's not idolatry to trust the Bible is God's manual for life, but it is blasphemy to call it BS.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Chuck, I think it is most excellent that you are taking an interest in this biblical subject of God reconciling all men to himself. And actually, free will as a part of man believing unto salvation is most definitely over rated. Just look at the apostle Paul's conversion. He gets thrown off of a horse and then blinded by God until he comes to the realization that something is definitely not right in his life. Then he gets a personal visit from Jesus himself who shows him that he is the Lord and the way to salvation for all mankind. Paul is a living example of someone that had to be touched and enlightened by the Master's hand first before he had any chance to believe unto salvation. We are really just fortunate and called of God to have received this message at all. Many people in remote parts of the world may never hear this message or simply have not heard enough to believe unto salvation. Just look at the vast amounts of people living in cultures controlled by Islamic or Hindu beliefs. Does that mean that God raises them from the dead to be judged and then throws them on the scrap heap to be tortured for ever? While the few of us fortunate enough to have personally been touched by the Master in our earthly existence only receive eternal life? I don't think so. Jesus can show himself in his eternal resurrected state to whomever he wills. The bible says that every knee shall bow to the Lord Jesus. God through his Son has both the power and the will to reconcile all men to himself. If not in this lifetime then at the second general resurrection. People really misunderstand the fire of God spoken of in the final part of the book of Revelation. This is not a fire of eternal torment. This is a fire of judgement and purification for all mankind so that he can take part in the Lord's glorious new heaven and earth. Without this purification by the Lord Jesus none of us would receive eternal life.
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1searcher
I love talking about Christian universalism.
The best book I have found on the subject is “The Inescapable Love of God” by Thomas Talbott. Dr. Thomas’ web site is http://home.att.net/%7Et.b.talbott/.
Other really good books on Christian universalism and related subjects are:
“Universal Salvation? The Current Debate” Edited by Robin A. Parry & Christopher H. Partridge
“The One Purpose of God: An Answer to the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment” by Jan Bonda
“Destined for Salvation: God’s Promise to Save Everyone” by Kalen Fristad
“What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell: Wrestling with the Traditional View” by Randy Klassen
“If Grace Is True: Why God Will Save Every Person” by Phillip Gulley and James Mulholland
There are plenty of really good websites concerning Christian universalism. They include:
www.tentmaker.org/
www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
www.universalistchristians.org/
www.savior-of-all.com/
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def59
But Mark S.
What did Jesus mean when he said this:
* Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
And what about this verse?
* Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
God warns us of the danger of a life separate from him. Are you able to say Jesus was wrong?
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def59
Do you guys actually read your own sites?
I went to www.biblicaluniversalism.com and found out for myself what it said. It has some typical confusing verbiage, but even that site admits that some people — who WILLFULLY reject God, will be LOST.
And brothers, that what I have been saying.
The Bible teaches that while God wants everyone to be saved and that Jesus died once for all and the gift of salvation is available to all, not everyone is going to receive it.
Hence the terms ungodly, wicked and their final destination.
If that doesn't spark a flame to do your best to preach the good news than I don't know what will.
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Mark Sanguinetti
There are two words for study consideration on this subject. They are Strong's numbers 165 and 166. 165 is the number for the Greek word 'aion'. 166 is the number for the related Greek word 'aionios'. Aion is clearly refering to age and is a definite period of time. The related Greek word aionios is a little less clear, but is definitely related to the word found in the Greek bible for aion which should be translated 'age'. Below is a study for your consideration. This is not the entire study available, but I will provide the Internet link to this study at the bottom of this post which has more information.
Does "FOREVER" Really Mean FOREVER?
A Study of the Word "Eon"
Most Christians would be astonished and perplexed to find out that the Bible NEVER ONCE talks about "eternal" life, or ANYTHING happening "forever" or "forever and ever." In fact, the words eternal, everlasting, and forever NEVER appear in the New Testament. They are mistranslations of the Greek word "eon."
"Well, then the word "eon" must mean eternal, everlasting and forever," you say. No it doesn't. Because eternity does not have an end. An eon DOES have an end. The word "eon" pertains to a specific period of time, with both a beginning and an end.
The Bible makes this very clear because it speaks of a "present" eon, a "coming" eon, and a "conclusion" of the eons. Obviously "eternity" as we understand it, has NO "conclusion."
Now, before anyone gets too upset, there IS information in the Bible that speaks of what we understand as "eternal" life, but that word is not used. What the Bible says is that those living at the end of the eons will never die, because death will be abolished. ("The last enemy that will be abolished is -- death!" See 1 Cor 15:22-28.)
But it's extremely important to know why the Bible DOESN'T use the word eternity and instead uses the word eon, meaning a specific period of time.
The process of God revealing Himself (His character) to His creatures IS the PURPOSE of the eons (see Eph 1:11 in the original Greek). If infinity were needed for God to make Himself known, then we would never obtain such knowledge. God never speaks to us in terms of infinity, for we cannot understand it. He has provided a DEFINITE period of time for His self-revelation, called --- the eonian times.
The mistranslation of the word "eon" as everlasting, eternal, forever, and even "world", in the King James Version and nearly ALL translations of the Bible, leads to confusion and even sometimes to false doctrine. Some of the Bible translations have corrected some of the confusion by correctly translating the word "eon" as "age" which is much more accurate. But they don't do it in every instance.
The following information shows the many different ways the word "eon" is translated, as well as allowing the Bible to interpret its own words. The Bible reveals that the word "eon" clearly means a period of time, because the eons have a "conclusion!" Eternity has NO conclusion! So the word "Eon" CANNOT mean eternity!
EONIAN, aionion
Variously translated: Aeonian, age-abiding, long ages, of the ages, past ages, periods of past ages, remote-age times, commencement, eternal, eternally, eternity, everlasting,
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/forever2.htm
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here is more to consider from the same web site as previously quoted from. The link again is at the bottom.
Is There Really an Unpardonable Sin?
So, how does this make a difference? Well, one very important result of properly translating the word "eon" pertains to the study of what is often referred to as "The Unpardonable Sin" where the King James Version states "And whoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall NOT be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." Matt 12:32.
However, the word is NOT "world" but "eon." Thus, the text really reads, in the original Greek, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eon, nor in the eon to come." That means that "the sin against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven him" in the eon that these words were written in (the present eon we are living in), nor in the eon to come - which is the millennial eon. The Bible teaches that the wicked will be dead during the millennial eon, so naturally "his sin" will not be forgiven him while he is dead. But the Bible states that there is ANOTHER eon after that, the Fifth and Final Eon of time, when the wicked are resurrected and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place! The Bible does NOT say that "his sin" will not be forgiven him in that LAST eon! This is clearly a matter for much further study.
Five Eons
When we study the different specific eons, we find there are a total of FIVE eons, in the Total Eonion Times of this earth's history. We will not discuss the first eon at this time, as that is a total study in itself. It is mentioned in Heb 1:2 We can find from scripture that the second eon began at Creation as described in the first chapter of Genesis and extended until the flood, a period of at least 1600 years (Genesis 1-9). The third eon (Gal 1:4; 1 Thess 4:13, 5:11; Matt 24:29,30) began with the flood and will end at the Second Coming of Jesus, a period of around 4000 years. This is the eon that we are living in right now. This eon and the previous eon are termed the "evil" eons in the Bible. (For more information, see the reference at the end of this study.)
When Jesus comes again, that will begin the fourth eon, the one thousand year millennial eon, the only eon for which the Bible gives us an exact time -- one thousand years (Rev 20:1-10; Luke 18:20). But the Bible tells that there will be ANOTHER eon, the fifth eon, AFTER the millennial eon (Rev 21-22; Eph 3:21; Rev 11,14,15; Rev 20:11-15). That's when the Second Resurrection (the Resurrection of the Wicked) and the Great White Throne Judgment will take place. But please note, that will take an ENTIRE eon!
How Long is an Eon?
The word "eon" just designates that it is a period of time, with a definite beginning and a definite end. It is NOT eternity, as eternity has NO end! Each eon appears to be a different length of time. But one thing is certain, every eon is a VERY LONG period of time. The shortest eon that the Bible speaks of is the millennium eon (the fourth eon) and that is 1000 years long. The second eon, from creation to the flood, was at least 1600 years long and the present eon, from the flood until the Second Coming of Christ, is at least 4000 years long.
So, we have reason to believe that the last eon (the fifth and final eon) will be AT LEAST 1000 years long and possibly longer! Christians have the impression that the wicked will be resurrected, judged and "thrown in the lake of fire" in a very short period of time, --- maybe minutes, hours, days, weeks or months. Really, no one gives it much thought. Everyone is just under the impression that it will all happen quite rapidly.
But if billions of people are going to be "eternally lost" as most Christians believe, and God's going to resurrect billions of wicked people just to "judge" them, then kill them again, supposedly to prove to them that He was right all along (Have you ever stopped to ponder what kind of a God would do that?), then wouldn't God allow each person to have at least a few minutes individually in front of the Great White Throne, before God "eternally" destroys them? Is that too much to ask? After all, we're told that each person is so precious to Jesus that He would have died on the cross for "just one person," and that we're much more important than the sparrows that He assures us He watches over.
Or are billions of people going to be resurrected and judged as a gigantic, impersonal mass of humanity, then communally consigned to the fire to die all over again, but this time in an excruciatingly painful way?
In addition, the wicked will HAVE to be resurrected in better bodies (but not "glorified" bodies as the righteous have) than they had when they went down into the grave, as some were brain-dead in a coma on life-support when they died, some died with Alzheimer's, and some were burned to death in accidental house fires. They're at least going to have to be restored to such a degree that they can understand what the "judging" is all about.
What would it prove to have a comatose patient, or a person with Alzheimer's placed before God at the Great White Throne Judgment? That would be stupid. God wouldn't do that. The "judgment" would be nonsensical and meaningless if the person being "judged" couldn't understand what was going on.
Reasonable Assumptions:
1. The last eon, the eon of the Great White Throne Judgment, will be at least as long as the shortest known eon, at least 1000 years, possibly longer. For a Christian that does not believe in "eternal" burning, what in the world is going to take place that would take such a long time? By the way, the concept of the wicked "burning forever and ever" has no Biblical basis when one reads the original Greek. The longest period of time the wicked could possibly "burn" would be for the "eon", a specific period of time with a definite ending. (The question of whether the wicked will literally burn, and for how long is the subject of yet another study. See the study on "When is Fire Not Fire?")
2. There must be some means of feeding, sheltering and governing these billions of people while the Judgment is taking place and while the wicked are preparing for battle against the Saints. Will there be a whole "civilization" set up?
3. The wicked will be resurrected in better bodies than the ones in which they went down to the grave (though not "glorified" bodies as the righteous will have).
Clarification of the Scriptures by the proper translation of the word "eon."
Here are some examples of the Biblical contradictions produced by the mistranslation of the word "eon."
1. The word "everlasting" is applied to things in some Bible passages that the Bible states, in other passages, is clearly NOT "everlasting".
"the everlasting hills" Gen 49:26 and Deut 33:15 (R.V.)
Yet the Bible states that the hills are NOT "everlasting."
Isa 54:10 "For the mountains shall depart and the hills be removed"
Amos 9:13 "and all the hills shall melt"
2 Peter 3:10 "and the earth shall be burned up"
2. Contradictory expressions as "the end of the world" and "world without end."
Matt 24:3 "the end of the world" (KJV) The accurate translation is: "conclusion of the eon."
Eph 3:21 "world without end" (KJV) The accurate translation is: "unto all the generations of the eon of the eons."
The inaccuracy and inconsistency of the translation of the words "olam" in the Old Testament and of "aion" and "aionios" in the New Testament has led to a tragic perversion of what the Scriptures actually teach in regard to the destiny of God's creatures.
Let's remember that we are told that God "is the Savior of ALL men" (1 Tim 4:10); that He will justify ALL (Rom 5:18); that He will reconcile ALL unto Himself (Col 1:20);that He will give life to ALL (1 Cor. 15:22); and that finally when all enemies have been subjected, and death is abolished, that God will be "ALL IN ALL" (1 Cor 15:28).
If these statements are true, then it cannot be true that millions of His children are to be held in never-ending torment or that they will be permanently annihilated (by whatever method you may believe), nor that even one should receive such treatment. "Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD." He doesn't "offer" to take it away --- He TAKES it away. And the "sin" is not taken away from just "some people" in the world -- No, it is taken away from the WHOLE world!
This does not deny that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" (Rom 1:18). There is no doubt whatever as to the fact that the Bible clearly teaches wrath -- not only in this age (eon) but in the age (eon) which is to come. "God will NOT be mocked." Whatever we sow, we will reap. But God's wrath is defined in Romans 1:18, 24, 26, 28. God's "wrath" is just giving us up to our own evil desires and allowing us to reap what we have sown.
Let us ALL remember that God says, "I'm NOT like you." "My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
The word "Judgment" means to "set right" or to "turn around" or "turn back." God chastens us to turn us around, so we'll head in the right direction. That's the way we discipline our own children. Psalm 94:15 says, "But judgment shall RETURN unto righteousness."
Psalm 90:3, speaking of God, says, "Thou turnest man to destruction: and sayest, Return, ye children of men."
If destruction means annihilation, then how could anyone return to God after they have been permanently annihilated?
In 1 Cor 5:5, Paul tells us to "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Notice that "destruction" is NOT annihilation, but the prelude to SALVATION! (Please see the study on "The Destruction of the Wicked.")
In Conclusion:
1) An Eon is a period of time, NOT eternity.
2) There will be a total of Five Eons in the history of this world.
3) We are living in the third eon of earth's history
4) The millennial eon (the fourth eon) will begin at the Second Coming of Jesus
5) After the millennial eon, there will be a fifth and final eon during which time the wicked will be resurrected, the Great White Throne Judgment will take place, and the wicked will reap what they have sown. But that will NOT include permanent annihilation. Their "Judgment" will have a PURPOSE -- to turn them back to righteousness! Psalm 94:15, "But Judgment shall RETURN unto righteousness!"
6) When death is abolished and God is "ALL in ALL" (1 Cor 15:28) --- THEN eternity will begin.
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/forever3.htm
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CKnapp3
Def59 asks:
How do you know Jesus was referring to an eternal fire? Again, you are going by your translation of your bible.
Jesus did make references to "gehenna", which has been mistranslated "hellfire", but that is located SW of Jerusalem, not in the subterranean underworld. "Gehenna" should be translated "The Valley of Hinnom", which has a real geographical location. (I even have photos of the place if you want to see them). And I can assure you, the "fires of hell" fizzled out 15 centuries ago.
I have also told you that "eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek word "aion", which should be translated "age". An "age" has limitations. When it talks for instance in Revelation about "being tormeneted FOREVER AND EVER", that is a mistranslation. "forever and ever" should read "from one age to the next". In short, when the next age comes, the torment should end. PERIOD!
There are even bibles that DON'T teach eternal torment at all. You ask me if all the bibles are wrong. Do you think THOSE bibles are wrong?
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CKnapp3
Def, Neal Punt IS NOT A UNIVERSALIST!!!! He is in fact a CALVINIST!!!!! He said so!!!! You obviously only read a small portion of it and drew a quick conclusion without reading everything.
In fact, you are not really following along this thread, you are only concentrating on the things I AM saying and not anything else. If you had even been following this thread, you would have read my opinion about Neal Punt and his "biblical universalism" website several posts back.
I said it once, and I'm saying it again, you are only here to debate, you really don't want to learn
If you want to know about TRUE universalism, click THIS link
Tentmaker Ministries
That "biblicaluniversalism" website is not something I agree with, so Don't call it MY website!!!
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CKnapp3
Hi Mark S., I always thought you were the peacemaker, even when you and I disagreed on a few things. Welcome
:)-->
I really don't think Def wants to learn anything, I think he only wants to debate his cause
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